Required textbook ethics question

[swimmermom3]

I have kind of a silly question about a textbook I purchased for ds for his political philosophy course.

 

The text is 4Texts on Socrates. 

 

The used book arrived today and I thought the author's name sounded familiar.  Thomas G. West is a professor at Hillsdale College.  Ds and I listened to their lecture series for the Constitution 101 class for his AP US Government class through PAH.

 

I think Dr. West does lecture 4 on economics, religion, and character.  He makes a statement in the lecture to the effect that women receiving welfare are part of the decline of western civilization.  They keep children from their rightful fathers and take money from these ill-abused men.  It is perhaps one of the most reprehensible and irresponsible statements I've heard presented in a college lecture series.  The ugliness of the presentation of his opinion was a bit stunning.  The very mention of his name sort of makes my stomach churn.  I suspect that Sailor Dude will notice who the author is.

 

I would never do anything to support this professor.  I bought the book used, so he doesn't get money for it, but honestly, I feel like "ick" even looking at it. (Not very adult of me, I know.)  Do you think ds HAS to have THIS book or can I send his personal copy of Clouds and look for another book that has Plato's Euthyphro, Apology, and Crito in it. 

 

Is it ridiculous to spend extra money?   Has anyone ever had this issue?

[regentrude]

Whether he has to have this particular textbook, or whether another book would satisfy the requirements is a question your DS needs to ask the instructor.

Some instructors require exact editions, so the page numbers and everything match, and they also assign introductions and commentary. Others are fine with whatever edition of the main work.

 

ETA: I see the person is the translator. I can imagine an instructor wanting all students to have the same translation. I'd use that book.

Edited January 6, 2017 by regentrude

[Julie of KY]

Agree with Regentrude. If the exact text is required, I'd just deal with the ick. If you can find the content elsewhere, then I wouldn't fault you for spending extra money to get something different.

[swimmermom3]

Whether he has to have this particular textbook, or whether another book would satisfy the requirements is a question your DS needs to ask the instructor.

Some instructors require exact editions, so the page numbers and everything match, and they also assign introductions and commentary. Others are fine with whatever edition of the main work.

 

ETA: I see the person is the translator. I can imagine an instructor wanting all students to have the same translation. I'd use that book.

 

You are always so practical. :D  I am emotional on the topic of this particular professor, but you are probably right when it comes to the translation.  I am curious though to compare the translation and accompanying notes (the wife is the translator, I think) to the translations I have.

 

Has your son decided on a school?

 

[regentrude]

Has your son decided on a school?

 

Yes. He got admitted to St. Louis University with a scholarship offer that makes the school financially feasible for our family, and subsequently has abandoned the application process for other schools because this is his top choice :)

[swimmermom3]

Yes. He got admitted to St. Louis University with a scholarship offer that makes the school financially feasible for our family, and subsequently has abandoned the application process for other schools because this is his top choice :)

 

Congratulations! I am thrilled for him and your family.  It's a wonderful thing when the fit is good.

[G5052]

Yes, hold your nose and go forward. It's a translation thankfully, not a book of essays.

 

I've read some of his stuff, and I feel the same way. I know some wonderful people who went to Hillsdale, but some of the conservative Christian colleges have some real outliers. It's always somewhat funny to me because you hear Christians ranting about the outliers at the secular schools, but "we" are just as bad.

 

I've been a secular college professor for 18 years now, and much prefer that environment. In our conservative Christian circles, I usually avoid telling people where I work because being a female college professor at a secular institution is considered pretty worldly. Whatever. It really isn't any of their business, and I just cut the conversation short.

[Corraleno]

If it were me, knowing West's bias, I would want a second version in order to compare the translations and introductions, even if I had to use the West copy for class. There are cheap used copies available of the same works by many other translators (e.g. Penguin's Last Days of Socrates), so that would be my approach. It might even lead to some interesting class discussions if there are subtle (or even perhaps not-so-subtle) differences between the translations.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Use the book and then when done with it, back over it a few times with your car.

 

 

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

I suspect that the professor would want students to use a particular text.  If the prof is expecting students to write on these texts he (or she) will be expecting citations from the assigned text not a substitute.

 

If this course or this section is not required, perhaps the student needs to rethink taking the course (if the texts used are that objectionable) and enroll in a new course.

Edited January 7, 2017 by JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst

[swimmermom3]

If it were me, knowing West's bias, I would want a second version in order to compare the translations and introductions, even if I had to use the West copy for class. There are cheap used copies available of the same works by many other translators (e.g. Penguin's Last Days of Socrates), so that would be my approach. It might even lead to some interesting class discussions if there are subtle (or even perhaps not-so-subtle) differences between the translations.

 

I am holding my nose and reading the West copy. I should get my copy of Cooper's translations on Monday and I am fairly anxious to compare the introductions.  This is good for me, since I feel like my brain is stagnating without teaching this year.  I read several of Sailor Dude's China seminar books and now I'll read the political philosophy books because there is some Plato and Aristotle I haven't read.  There is an open course Yale lecture series that covers several of the same books. We've done The Prince, but have not read Hobbes or anything of length from Rousseau.

 

My issue with this translation has got me thinking about a couple of other works we have. I never really think about bias, but probably should.  I am not exactly happy about evaluating ancient Greeks through a Christian lens unless that is my direct purpose, which it is not.

[swimmermom3]

Use the book and then when done with it, back over it a few times with your car.

 

That Sparkly, would give me great satisfaction. :D

[swimmermom3]

I suspect that the professor would want students to use a particular text.  If the prof is expecting students to write on these texts he (or she) will be expecting citations from the assigned text not a substitute.

 

If this course or this section is not required, perhaps the student needs to rethink taking the course (if the texts used are that objectionable) and enroll in a new course.

 

The student will love the topic and is excited about the reading. He's already read Clouds and will easily be able to compare those translations.  He'll have more difficulty with the Plato readings, but is very aware of West's bias and can work with it. 

 

My thought is that study time is short.  Why not read a good translation?  (Of course, that's according to my definition!)  I just wish I knew if there was a specific purpose in selecting this text or a practical one in that it has Clouds and three dialogues all in one place. However, you all are probably right about assigning specific pages and citations.

 

 

[MarkT]

Use the book and then when done with it, back over it a few times with your car.

i was going to suggest burn it after the course ends

[Luckymama]

i was going to suggest burn it after the course ends

Run over it, shred the pages, and then burn it.

 

:D

[regentrude]

No, don't destroy the book. Donate it to a resale shop of an organization that helps single moms on welfare :)

Or donate it to a poor homeschooling mom.

Think WWWHM. What Would West Hate Most.

Edited January 8, 2017 by regentrude

[maize]

No, don't destroy the book. Donate it to a resale shop of an organization that helps single moms on welfare :)

Or donate it to a poor homeschooling mom.

Think WWWHM. What Would West Hate Most.

This!

 

And really, just keeping the used book in circulation means that fewer new books need to be bought...

[maize]

Drives me bonkers when "Christian" folks oppose social and economic support for mothers and children. Shame on those children for being born and needing to be taken care of regardless of whether they have a biological father willing and able to provide adequately. Let them suffer! I'll keep my own hoard of resources to myself thankyouverymuch.

Edited January 8, 2017 by maize

[G5052]

Drives me bonkers when "Christian" folks oppose social and economic support for mothers and children. Shame on those children for being born and needing to be taken care of regardless of whether they have a biological father willing and able to provide adequately. Let them suffer! I'll keep my own hoard of resources to myself thankyouverymuch.

 

We're on the same page.

 

As a community college professor, I get glimpses of what women at the bottom of the economic ladder go through. I've had students who lived in their cars with their children in the dead of winter because they had overstayed the homeless shelter and had nowhere to go. Thankfully I know of local churches and services who help mothers in that situation and have been able to get them help. But at my church it's not a priority because there's a faction that oppose social and economic support for mothers and children. I keep clear of those people.

Edited January 8, 2017 by G5052

[swimmermom3]

No, don't destroy the book. Donate it to a resale shop of an organization that helps single moms on welfare :)

Or donate it to a poor homeschooling mom.

Think WWWHM. What Would West Hate Most.

 

 

This!

 

And really, just keeping the used book in circulation means that fewer new books need to be bought...

 

Oh, this is brilliant!  I love the idea of donating to an organization that supports low-income women. I think a cash donation to go with it perhaps in Dr. West's "honor" would make me really happy.

[swimmermom3]

Drives me bonkers when "Christian" folks oppose social and economic support for mothers and children. Shame on those children for being born and needing to be taken care of regardless of whether they have a biological father willing and able to provide adequately. Let them suffer! I'll keep my own hoard of resources to myself thankyouverymuch.

 

Ds and I were stunned by Dr. West's statements and the vitriol with which they were delivered.  Perhaps there is a very good reason the mother is keeping the children from their father?  Drugs? Abuse?  It was all just very weird and twisted.

[maize]

Ds and I were stunned by Dr. West's statements and the vitriol with which they were delivered. Perhaps there is a very good reason the mother is keeping the children from their father? Drugs? Abuse? It was all just very weird and twisted.

Well you know, women and children are supposed to be subject to and dependant upon their husbands/fathers; anything else is unnacceptable.

 

I'm all in favor of intact families and of men providing as well as they can for their wives and children--with 6.5 children I'm very grateful for a husband who has been able to support us, and who is a good man who doesn't want to abuse us; the impossibility of doing it all on my own is very clear to me. It's a system that can work well under the right conditions.

 

But--how is it not obvious to every single person that this system can also break down or be abused? If every man in the world could be 100% relied upon to be responsible and kind and respectful, to provide for his family and treat them well--then having that as the only support system for mothers and children might work. Since that is not a human reality anywhere in the world the need for backup systems that will allow every mother to have support and every child to be provided for should be more than obvious.

 

(all this of course goes hand in hand with ensuring basic needs are met and human decency allowed for others who for whatever reason are not adequately up to the task themselves but really there is a specific vitriol against single mothers and children that I don't see for folks with disabilities etc.)

 

The basic reality is that children need to be cared for, and the burden for caring for them falls overwhelmingly to mothers--who in spite of best efforts are not superhuman and function best when they themselves receive support and help as needed.

Edited January 8, 2017 by maize

[regentrude]

Well you know, women and children are supposed to be subject to and dependant upon their husbands/fathers; anything else is unnacceptable.

...

But--how is it not obvious to every single person that this system can also break down or be abused? If every man in the world could be 100% relied upon to be responsible and kind and respectful, to provide for his family and treat them well--then having that as the only support system for mothers and children might work. Since that is not a human reality anywhere in the world the need for backup systems that will allow every mother to have support and every child to be provided for should be more than obvious.

...

The basic reality is that children need to be cared for, and the burden for caring for them falls overwhelmingly to mothers--who in spite of best efforts are not superhuman and function best when they themselves receive support and help as needed.

 

And what bugs me most is that the same people who want to deny these mothers any support are the same people who are shouting loudest that they are "pro life". They are not. They are pro birth. Pro life means to give a child also food, housing, education. Not stop caring as soon as they are born.

[maize]

And what bugs me most is that the same people who want to deny these mothers any support are the same people who are shouting loudest that they are "pro life". They are not. They are pro birth. Pro life means to give a child also food, housing, education. Not stop caring as soon as they are born.

 

Yep, it's hypocritical. I'm generally pro-life, I hate the thought of any woman terminating the life of her own unborn child (though I don't favor any legislation that would ban all abortions, life being complex and not so easily reduced to black and white). But I'll stand up and fight for better treatment of people throughout life and especially of the most vulnerable in our society long before I'll condemn those who are vulnerable for not meeting my personal ethical standards.