I need some stats help

[BlsdMama]

The district is requesting a child of mine score below the 25% on a standardized test to get a 504.  (I believe this to be a civil rights violation and we'll get to the bottom of this but it's a different matter altogether.)

 

But, I got to thinking.... assuming 4 choices to a question, wouldn't even a monkey get a 25%?  I am not a stats person, but it seems to me that if you only randomly filled in questions, I'd guess you'd get it correct one in four times (25%) on the entire test, assuming each question had four choices.

 

It would make this particular request unreasonable.

[EKS]

The 25th percentile is different from 25 percent.

Edited December 4, 2016 by EKS

[kiana]

25th percentile means that they scored better than 25% of the people who took the test. Basically it is requiring them to score in the bottom 1/4 of test takers. 

[katilac]

The district is requesting a child of mine score below the 25% on a standardized test to get a 504.  (I believe this to be a civil rights violation and we'll get to the bottom of this but it's a different matter altogether.)

 

But, I got to thinking.... assuming 4 choices to a question, wouldn't even a monkey get a 25%?  I am not a stats person, but it seems to me that if you only randomly filled in questions, I'd guess you'd get it correct one in four times (25%) on the entire test, assuming each question had four choices.

 

It would make this particular request unreasonable.

 

No, that is not the correct way of looking at the chances of scoring a 25% on the test as a whole, but that's irrelevant because they they don't want him to score below 25%, they want him to be below the 25th percentile. Different things. As kiana said, it means they want him to be in the bottom fourth of test-takers. 

 

504s are specifically about not discriminating against students with disabilities, but having a disability does not automatically qualify one for a 504. The disability has to substantially impair their ability to access learning in the classroom setting. 

 

They shouldn't say that any one thing is make or break, but performance on a standardized test could be one item that is considered in the overall evaluation. Could they have meant that the evaluation so far doesn't have them leaning toward a 504, but that scoring in that percentile would give them reason to reconsider? 

[maize]

As others have said, 25th percentile means they scored better than 25% of students; below the 25th percentile just means they score in the bottom 1/4th of students.

[BlsdMama]

No, that is not the correct way of looking at the chances of scoring a 25% on the test as a whole, but that's irrelevant because they they don't want him to score below 25%, they want him to be below the 25th percentile. Different things. As kiana said, it means they want him to be in the bottom fourth of test-takers. 

 

504s are specifically about not discriminating against students with disabilities, but having a disability does not automatically qualify one for a 504. The disability has to substantially impair their ability to access learning in the classroom setting. 

 

They shouldn't say that any one thing is make or break, but performance on a standardized test could be one item that is considered in the overall evaluation. Could they have meant that the evaluation so far doesn't have them leaning toward a 504, but that scoring in that percentile would give them reason to reconsider? 

 

 

So, thus far, I have not filled out the request for the 504 until we have her official diagnosis in hand.  Because she has dyslexia, she is a slower reader.  Because she is a slower reader, she cannot complete the ACT/SAT.  Because she cannot complete the SAT/ACT she is at a distinct disadvantage - her score will be far lower than her intelligence/ability actually is.  Because of this, she is entitled to a 504 - accomodations due to a disability. 

 

The actual language of the 504 according to the Dept. of Ed OCR:

 

STUDENTS PROTECTED UNDER SECTION 504

Section 504 covers qualified students with disabilities who attend schools receiving Federal financial assistance. To be protected under Section 504, a student must be determined to: (1) have a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more major life activities; or (2) have a record of such an impairment; or (3) be regarded as having such an impairment. Section 504 requires that school districts provide a free appropriate public education (FAPE) to qualified students in their jurisdictions who have a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more major life activities.

 

 

It then goes on to state:

 

The Section 504 regulatory provision  at 34 C.F.R. 104.3(j)(2)(i) defines a physical or mental impairment as any physiological disorder or condition, cosmetic disfigurement, or anatomical loss affecting one or more of the following body systems: neurological; musculoskeletal; special sense organs; respiratory, including speech organs; cardiovascular; reproductive; digestive; genito-urinary; hemic and lymphatic; skin; and endocrine; or any mental or psychological disorder, such as mental retardation, organic brain syndrome, emotional or mental illness, and specific learning disabilities.

 

And clarifies a limitation of major life activities as:

 

Congress provided additional examples of general activities that are major life activities, including eating, sleeping, standing, lifting, bending, reading, concentrating, thinking, and communicating.

 

 

 

No body can require a student to fail with a disability before agreeing to an accomodation.  

 

 

They are re-evaluating their requirements to the 504 language to see if there must be a change made - the stats thing was an afterthought and I can see that you all are correct - duh.  25% would be at or below 25% of the students taking the exam, not a 25% correct. I should have thought of that. ;)

[Crimson Wife]

State ed codes often specify that to qualify for an IEP, the student has to be more than a certain number of standard deviations below the mean. Some of them specify -1, which is <16th percentile. Some require -1.5, which is <10th percentile. Some require -2, which is <7th percentile. 25th percentile would fall in the "normal" range, which is -1 s.d. (16th percentile) to +1 s.d. (84th percentile).

 

For a 504, however, they shouldn't be looking at test scores. My SN daughter could be performing well above that 84th percentile (theoretically it could happen if she fully overcame her language delay prior to high school graduation) and she'd still qualify for a 504.

[maize]

Does she have an official dyslexia diagnosis? Seems to me that alone should be sufficient.

[bettyandbob]

I'm confused about where you are in the process:

Have you made a referral for services?

Did the committee meet?

Did the committee (including you) decide to do evaluations? Did they  review evaluations you provide? Did they decide to do updates because evaluations are more than 3 years old? Where is the 25% on a standardized test coming from? Is it part of a group of instruments used to determine special education eligibility?

 

Did you make a request and not even get to be part of an eligibility committee. 

[katilac]

Does she have an official dyslexia diagnosis? Seems to me that alone should be sufficient.

 

No, dyslexia does not automatically qualify a student for a 504. 

[bettyandbob]

No, dyslexia does not automatically qualify a student for a 504. 

 

 

Yes. You have to show the person is in need of accommodation. A person can have a disability and not need accommodation to benefit from the educational environment. 

[katilac]

So, thus far, I have not filled out the request for the 504 until we have her official diagnosis in hand.  Because she has dyslexia, she is a slower reader.  Because she is a slower reader, she cannot complete the ACT/SAT.  Because she cannot complete the SAT/ACT she is at a distinct disadvantage - her score will be far lower than her intelligence/ability actually is.  Because of this, she is entitled to a 504 - accomodations due to a disability. 

 

The actual language of the 504 according to the Dept. of Ed OCR:

 

STUDENTS PROTECTED UNDER SECTION 504

Section 504 covers qualified students with disabilities who attend schools receiving Federal financial assistance. To be protected under Section 504, a student must be determined to: (1) have a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more major life activities; or (2) have a record of such an impairment; or (3) be regarded as having such an impairment. Section 504 requires that school districts provide a free appropriate public education (FAPE) to qualified students in their jurisdictions who have a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more major life activities.

 

 

It then goes on to state:

 

The Section 504 regulatory provision  at 34 C.F.R. 104.3(j)(2)(i) defines a physical or mental impairment as any physiological disorder or condition, cosmetic disfigurement, or anatomical loss affecting one or more of the following body systems: neurological; musculoskeletal; special sense organs; respiratory, including speech organs; cardiovascular; reproductive; digestive; genito-urinary; hemic and lymphatic; skin; and endocrine; or any mental or psychological disorder, such as mental retardation, organic brain syndrome, emotional or mental illness, and specific learning disabilities.

 

And clarifies a limitation of major life activities as:

 

Congress provided additional examples of general activities that are major life activities, including eating, sleeping, standing, lifting, bending, reading, concentrating, thinking, and communicating.

 

 

 

No body can require a student to fail with a disability before agreeing to an accomodation.  

 

 

They are re-evaluating their requirements to the 504 language to see if there must be a change made - the stats thing was an afterthought and I can see that you all are correct - duh.  25% would be at or below 25% of the students taking the exam, not a 25% correct. I should have thought of that. ;)

 

 

"Substantially limits" is where the discussion and overall evaluation take place. Lots of students can't complete the ACT; the challenge is in showing that the disability specifically and significantly impairs education. Some students with dyslexia will get a 504, others will not. Some students with ADD will get a 504, others will not. 

 

It can depend a lot on both severity and history of accommodations. If the main documented accommodation is not related to time, then it's less likely that they will get more time for the test. For example, some students with dyslexia might take their tests as usual, but they don't get points off for misspellings - those students are less likely to get an extra time accommodation on a standardized test. 

 

You can't 'fail' a standardized test, but it is correct that they can't require a specific score as the sole criteria. They can, however, take the score into consideration just as they do other factors. 

 

Is this student in high school already, or are you looking ahead to ACT and stuff? The earlier, the better, for a dx and a history of accommodations. If she has a long history of taking tests with her peers, and doing well, it's going to be harder to get extra time. 

[QueenCat]

Wouldn't it be an IEP and not a 504 for the issues you are talking about? I know it would be in the places mine went to public school but I've heard some places do 504s when others would do IEPs (IDEA law rather than ADA law).

[katilac]

Wouldn't it be an IEP and not a 504 for the issues you are talking about? I know it would be in the places mine went to public school but I've heard some places do 504s when others would do IEPs (IDEA law rather than ADA law).

 

All schools do both. IEPs are much more involved and expensive than 504s, so a school would have no reason to do IEPs only. They fall under special education and are much harder to qualify for. 

 

A student with dyslexia might get one or the other, or neither. Having a disability does not automatically qualify a student for an IEP or 504. Likewise, having an IEP or 504 does not automatically qualify a student for standardized testing accommodations, although having either will definitely help in the evaluation process. 

[bettyandbob]

My ds got accommodations under 504. Since he did not need remediation he did not need an IEP. Since the public school could meet his needs without significant testing, they did not do testing or update old testing (this is legal, I have researched).

 

To use accommodations on SAT or ACT you need to prepare well ahead of the exam with required documentation. When ds did this 6 years ago, both college board and ACT wanted a full neuropsychological evaluation. This was necessary for ds disability, but both organizations demanded it. They are private entities and if I tried to fight that the fight would have taken years longer than when ds needed to take these exams.

 

Because ds was fully accommodated educationally by the school, the school was not legally bound to test. Therefore, I had to pay for a full neuropsychological evaluation, plus I had to pay for further evaluation related to his disability. Thus was very expensive. Additionally, it took months. I started the process in September and we barely got the application accepted by college board in time for May AP exams.

 

In addition to the neuropsychological evaluation, they want proof the student is actually using the accommodation requested. If student is requesting additional time, does the school allow him extra time and does student use it.

 

We found college board easier to work with. In fact we couldn't get ACT accommodations and we gave up. My ds must type due to severe fine motor deficits and dysgraphia. He does not need extra time. He used a computer for all coursework I n high school. The AP Govt teacher didn't believe this was necessary and tried to keep ds from access. However, the counselor (in one of his few good moments) intervened. Ds earned a 5 on that AP exam -- no one else did (teacher did not know her subject and was not permitted to teach AP again). Without the accommodation ds would not have gotten that score. Ds also typed SAT essay and SAT II exams.

 

ACT simply said they only give extra time. That would not have helped ds. They said ds could have typing available if he had no hands.

 

Incidentally, I was advised when ds was in K to not provide him with occupational therapy or help him with alternatives to communicating in written form at a young age. This advice was given as a strategy so ds would act fall academically behind and need an IEP in addition to 504. This was one reason ds stayed out of public school from K through 8th grade.

[QueenCat]

All schools do both. IEPs are much more involved and expensive than 504s, so a school would have no reason to do IEPs only. They fall under special education and are much harder to qualify for. 

 

A student with dyslexia might get one or the other, or neither. Having a disability does not automatically qualify a student for an IEP or 504. Likewise, having an IEP or 504 does not automatically qualify a student for standardized testing accommodations, although having either will definitely help in the evaluation process. 

 

Yes, I am very familiar with both. HOWEVER, I have seen them used differently in different places. I found it rather bizarre. The situation the OP describes would have been IEP based not 504 in the different places we've lived. 504s were used more for physical and medical accommodations, not testing. This was the practice in the 3 states we lived in. However, another state did use 504s for situations like the OP described but had stopped by the time we moved, going strictly to IEPs for such things. I actually used to train both parents and professionals in IEP development in one of those states.

[Crimson Wife]

Wouldn't it be an IEP and not a 504 for the issues you are talking about? I know it would be in the places mine went to public school but I've heard some places do 504s when others would do IEPs (IDEA law rather than ADA law).

 

All schools, public and private, are required to provide accommodations under a 504 plan. Public schools are also required to offer IEP's. Private schools may accept an IEP but they are not required to.

 

Whether a student receives an IEP or a 504 as a result of his/her disability has to do with meeting state ed code criteria for an IEP. My daughter struggles with reading as a result of her disabilities but she does not meet the ed code criteria in my state to have that added to her IEP. The school provides certain accommodations but we don't have legal grounds to force them to provide IEP services in that area.

[QueenCat]

All schools, public and private, are required to provide accommodations under a 504 plan. Public schools are also required to offer IEP's. Private schools may accept an IEP but they are not required to.

 

Whether a student receives an IEP or a 504 as a result of his/her disability has to do with meeting state ed code criteria for an IEP. My daughter struggles with reading as a result of her disabilities but she does not meet the ed code criteria in my state to have that added to her IEP. The school provides certain accommodations but we don't have legal grounds to force them to provide IEP services in that area.

 

Yes, well versed in the laws, like I said in my other post. It was my paid job to educate others on that kind of stuff so I had to be familiar with it but I didn't work with private schools or private school parents. Most of the states we've lived in used IEPs for pretty much anything that wasn't physical/medical, even if a student just needed accommodations. . And used 504s for physical/medical accommodations. One state did it differently, more like what the OP and you describe but by the time we left, were doing it more like the other places we've lived.