Need advice quickly about custody issues

[Guest]

That isn't how family court works IME. Family court is a place where the wisdom of Solomon is reversed. Who ever is willing to cut the kids in half often gets what they want.

Yes, yes, and yes again.

[TechWife]

 

 

He has a support order, but no custody order to give him the actual rights?  You don't usually get one without the other, so my best guess is that a state agency is who got the support order through.

 

 

Actually, this is not true. Custody and support are two different things. There are many situations where the parents aren't married to each other and no formal custody arrangement is in place, yet the non-custodial parent is required to pay support.

[Seasider]

She is 16 (is that old enough?); would it be better to put your efforts into helping her seek legal emancipation? Then she can live where she wants and your dh can stop paying child support to the drug using mom.

Edited November 21, 2016 by Seasider

[shawthorne44]

Emancipation would also mean that the birth mother wouldn't have to be involved for college financial aid paperwork.  Anyone that would do what she has already done, would also try to extract money out of the father of her daughter.  

[Sdel]

Actually, this is not true. Custody and support are two different things. There are many situations where the parents aren't married to each other and no formal custody arrangement is in place, yet the non-custodial parent is required to pay support.

 

Yes, exactly what I said....a state agency must have pushed through the support order because the agency wouldn't have dealt with custody.  If something was filed through the family court system he would have gotten at least a temporary custody order in addition to a support order since they do them at the same time, even if he did something pro se and everything else fizzled after that.

 

Sdel

[Sdel]

Unfortunately, the OP's DH doesn't have much besides the mom's goodwill to let the girl stay with them.  Hopefully they'll be able to get things done for her without custody orders or a power of attorney and hopefully the mom will go on and mind her own business and leave them alone.

 

I'm sorry OP, you may get lucky, but my experience with the courts (lots of time on custody support forums in the last 10 years) would not indicate a favorable outcome in court for you for several reasons (as per more of the story coming out)

 

1.  It doesn't sound like your DH has enough of a relationship that the courts would value with the daughter because the mom has limited contact.  Its is a big stretch to expect a court to uproot even a 16 year old into the home of someone they don't spend time with regularly.

2.  The mom has responsibly placed the daughter with someone else, and has provided them a power of attorney so she hasn't met the legal definition of abandonment, and so mom's issues (homeless, drugs, abuse)  won't come into play as much as your hoping it would.

3.  Courts look at "best interest" but that is actually a very limited set of parameters; not who can offer the better life.  Unfortunately we get ourselves emotionally up in arms over things in situations that we feel are unfair, that kids shouldn't have to deal with, etc....but unfortunately, the courts don't consider those things.  Even the abuse would be iffy I think....especially if the daughter is not currently living with the mom and while it isn't right, the courts/CPS tend to look the other way as the kids get older.  I've had a hard road learning the courts are going to allow parents to be crappy parents in the name of status quo. 

4.  Lack of past action on behalf of the daughter.  I know this one is the most unfair and enraging....but don't be surprised if the courts don't look at your DH's lack of custody orders as a major failing on his part.  It shouldn't be, but it can be seen as him having found everything acceptable.  A court may seriously question why at 16 this is just now becoming an issue.

5.  Many, many, many, many courts still suffer horrendously from golden uterus syndrome and the decisions tend to fall on the side of not taking the money away from the poor single mother who can't make ends meet without the CS.

6.  Jurisdiction would probably wind up in mom's state, if not retained by FL, since she is the one with custody and the daughter has residency there as established by the power of attorney.  States tend to not want to let this kind of responsibility go and they don't want to give custody to people outside their jurisdiction.

7.  Mom will most likely seriously change her tune about letting her stay with you if you actually do attempt a formal modification of custody.  Its all about the money.  

8.  At 16, they may consider the preference of the child, and may grant the preference if its a move across a city/state to live with a parent you see at least every weekend but that is not the same as granting the preference when it involves moving several states away to a place you have had infrequent and limited access to.

 

I want to give you some reality.  We get emotionally tied into these things, as we should when our children suffer, but honestly, the family courtroom is a whole other world where what is reasonable doesn't necessarily exist.  Should this child live with her father?  Under the circumstances that we've been presented in the thread, unequivocally, yes, however, that doesn't mean a court can even consider half of what has been discussed here in their decision making process.

 

 

Sdel

[Scarlett]

Unfortunately, the OP's DH doesn't have much besides the mom's goodwill to let the girl stay with them. Hopefully they'll be able to get things done for her without custody orders or a power of attorney and hopefully the mom will go on and mind her own business and leave them alone.

 

I'm sorry OP, you may get lucky, but my experience with the courts (lots of time on custody support forums in the last 10 years) would not indicate a favorable outcome in court for you for several reasons (as per more of the story coming out)

 

1. It doesn't sound like your DH has enough of a relationship that the courts would value with the daughter because the mom has limited contact. Its is a big stretch to expect a court to uproot even a 16 year old into the home of someone they don't spend time with regularly.

2. The mom has responsibly placed the daughter with someone else, and has provided them a power of attorney so she hasn't met the legal definition of abandonment, and so mom's issues (homeless, drugs, abuse) won't come into play as much as your hoping it would.

3. Courts look at "best interest" but that is actually a very limited set of parameters; not who can offer the better life. Unfortunately we get ourselves emotionally up in arms over things in situations that we feel are unfair, that kids shouldn't have to deal with, etc....but unfortunately, the courts don't consider those things. Even the abuse would be iffy I think....especially if the daughter is not currently living with the mom and while it isn't right, the courts/CPS tend to look the other way as the kids get older. I've had a hard road learning the courts are going to allow parents to be crappy parents in the name of status quo.

4. Lack of past action on behalf of the daughter. I know this one is the most unfair and enraging....but don't be surprised if the courts don't look at your DH's lack of custody orders as a major failing on his part. It shouldn't be, but it can be seen as him having found everything acceptable. A court may seriously question why at 16 this is just now becoming an issue.

5. Many, many, many, many courts still suffer horrendously from golden uterus syndrome and the decisions tend to fall on the side of not taking the money away from the poor single mother who can't make ends meet without the CS.

6. Jurisdiction would probably wind up in mom's state, if not retained by FL, since she is the one with custody and the daughter has residency there as established by the power of attorney. States tend to not want to let this kind of responsibility go and they don't want to give custody to people outside their jurisdiction.

7. Mom will most likely seriously change her tune about letting her stay with you if you actually do attempt a formal modification of custody. Its all about the money.

8. At 16, they may consider the preference of the child, and may grant the preference if its a move across a city/state to live with a parent you see at least every weekend but that is not the same as granting the preference when it involves moving several states away to a place you have had infrequent and limited access to.

 

I want to give you some reality. We get emotionally tied into these things, as we should when our children suffer, but honestly, the family courtroom is a whole other world where what is reasonable doesn't necessarily exist. Should this child live with her father? Under the circumstances that we've been presented in the thread, unequivocally, yes, however, that doesn't mean a court can even consider half of what has been discussed here in their decision making process.

 

 

Sdel

 

Ugh! This is all worst case scenario. HIGHLY unlikely to actually happen.

 

The mother would have to complain to someone.

Or the aunt would have to complain.

 

And then both of them would have to explain why they are so against the girl going to live with her father, where she wants to be, when neither one of them were equipped to properly care for her.

 

And again.....the aunt let her go see her father. She had to know this was a possibility.

[Code Lyoko]

Ugh! This is all worst case scenario. HIGHLY unlikely to actually happen.

 

The mother would have to complain to someone.

Or the aunt would have to complain.

 

And then both of them would have to explain why they are so against the girl going to live with her father, where she wants to be, when neither one of them were equipped to properly care for her.

 

And again.....the aunt let her go see her father. She had to know this was a possibility.

 

Well, the aunt isn't actually an aunt, either.  Not a blood relative.  Just someone the mom knows.

 

OP, since the mom has now actually given verbal consent, is there any way your DH could get her to put something in writing?  Even though you can't hire a lawyer, could your DH at least have some sort of legal document written up you could fax her to some local place where she could go in and sign and have it faxed back?  If she wants to continue to receive cs even though she is not actually the one that has been raising the girl in recent times (and still getting cs even if the girl is living with her father is apparently why she agreed to allow the girl to continue to stay with you and your DH) perhaps if you pressed just a tad harder you could get something more solid in place legally without hiring a lawyer.  

 

As for the power of attorney for the fake aunt, maybe that could be rescinded. 

 

What you need is time.  Time for the girl to stay with you and your DH until she is sure that is where she wants to live, time for her to get old enough that none of this matters, time to establish that the mom knows she is living there and has not fought the arrangement, time hopefully to get the mom to sign some sort of legal document saying she is o.k. with this (not just her verbal consent), etc.  All of that will look better with a court than the current situation.  

 

And do everything on your end to make certain she is getting an education so the courts can't come down on your DH for a lack of education.

[ktgrok]

Well, the aunt isn't actually an aunt, either.  Not a blood relative.  Just someone the mom knows.

 

OP, since the mom has now actually given verbal consent, is there any way your DH could get her to put something in writing?  Even though you can't hire a lawyer, could your DH at least have some sort of legal document written up you could fax her to some local place where she could go in and sign and have it faxed back?  certain she is getting an education so the courts can't come down on your DH for a lack of education.

 

This. You need it in writing. Something where she says she agrees for the girl to stay with you, and ideally a power of attorney as well, which she has done in the past, so hopefully would do again. And ask for a copy of her birth certificate. 

[FaithManor]

www.rocketlawyer.com

 

This website has temporary guardianship papers ror each state. A place to begin would be to have the mother fill one out and them pay to have it filed. You could, if necessary, offer her a one time gift of a hundred dollars to cover her expenses which would be going to the site you pick to get the fax, fill it out, fax it back to you, and take to the clerk of the family court. (You can google the exact location for filing in her state.)

 

It is actually very, very easy. When we had guardianship of my niece, my brother filled one out, and we paid a family lawyer to file it for us. $100 is all he charged for that. Wr had sole rights to our niece for a 12 month period.

 

Temporary guardianships are perfectly acceptable transfers of custody. We had zero issues, no doctor, school, or legal authority.ever questioned it. I did keep a copy of the form with me just in case I ever needed it.

 

I would try going this route with the mom. Cheap. Legal. However it will not change his CS order which must be treated separately. Since you would need the mom to be willing to renew it once before dsd turns 18, and with a druggie everything is about the money, I would simply pay he CS until the child turns 18 or graduates high school whichever is designated in the CS order. It isn't fair, but fair and family court/custody battles never are.

[Code Lyoko]

www.rocketlawyer.com

 

This website has temporary guardianship papers ror each state. A place to begin would be to have the mother fill one out and them pay to have it filed. You could, if necessary, offer her a one time gift of a hundred dollars to cover her expenses which would be going to the site you pick to get the fax, fill it out, fax it back to you, and take to the clerk of the family court. (You can google the exact location for filing in her state.)

 

It is actually very, very easy. When we had guardianship of my niece, my brother filled one out, and we paid a family lawyer to file it for us. $100 is all he charged for that. Wr had sole rights to our niece for a 12 month period.

 

Temporary guardianships are perfectly acceptable transfers of custody. We had zero issues, no doctor, school, or legal authority.ever questioned it. I did keep a copy of the form with me just in case I ever needed it.

 

I would try going this route with the mom. Cheap. Legal. However it will not change his CS order which must be treated separately. Since you would need the mom to be willing to renew it once before dsd turns 18, and with a druggie everything is about the money, I would simply pay he CS until the child turns 18 or graduates high school whichever is designated in the CS order. It isn't fair, but fair and family court/custody battles never are.

Love this and OP I would try for something like this very, very soon, before something happens that might cause the mom to change her mind regarding her verbal consent.

[AnnE-girl]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned since I haven't read all the comments closely, but have you looked at any pro bono legal help? We have several nonprofits that screen people in need and get them in touch with local lawyers who do pro bono work. Our local bar association also has "lawyer in the lobby" days at the court house to help direct people to what they can do themselves and when they really need an attorney. There's also a lot of self-help information at the law library in our courthouse. I know not all areas have this type of support, but you might be surprised at what you can find in your area.

[Guest]

They wouldn't order support without paternity being established. i understand he has no custody or visitation but he is still her father.

Not true. My ds's father and I were never married. I had him since day one, but in order to have actual custody, I had to sue him for custody. No paternity test was ever done...they just took my written word that he was the father.

[Scarlett]

Not true. My ds's father and I were never married. I had him since day one, but in order to have actual custody, I had to sue him for custody. No paternity test was ever done...they just took my written word that he was the father.

Yes. And because he didn't challenge it paternity was established.

[Scarlett]

Thanks everyone for the advice, much appreciated. We absolutely do not have $$ for a lawyer, to do so would mean our car would be repossessed or we'd be evicted. But that's right now, DH will get a bonus in March that we will use for a lawyer.... but things have developed oddly.

 

Come to find out the Aunt isn't actually blood related she is more of a family friend. So she has no say at all (although she is being very difficult for some weird reason, doesn't want to lose her babysitter?). She called DSD's mom who eventually got in touch with DSD and DH also talked to her. She's giving DH temporary custody as long as he continues to pay support (it's multi-state so it comes directly out of his paycheck). This is better than expected. It will give DSD some time to make sure she wants to stay, also get her established in school, she can get a job, and then in March we'll file for full custody in our state. The mother has never established residency in the state she's in right now, Indiana (she's been homeless since splitting with her XH in Ohio) and we're in TN. So it would be up to TN I would think? They'll be less likely to send her back to a mother in another state who has no home. Plus DSD is willing to throw her mother under the bus and tell the court system about how her mom physically abused her on a somewhat regular basis (full fist punches), the Aunt, the grandma, DSD's 1/2 brother, the XH, all have seen it and I think at least a couple of them would testify or at least write a letter. So fingers crossed things work out.

I somehow totally missed this post! This is good news. I figured if she could keep getting her cs she would be ok with her being there. And after dsd has been there a few months she won't have much room to fight a change of custody and yes losing her cs.

[sassenach]

That is fine, but people shouldn't be internet lawyers are give advice that can lead to legal difficulties down the road. There simply is not enough information in the OP for even a family attorney to give real advice.

 

Your two sentences above the bolded are significantly more valuable that the pseudo legal advice others were providing in this thread.

This is a bizarre overreaction to Scarlett's post. She never claimed to give legal advice. This is an open forum where we all throw out our opinions, wise or unwise, and expect that the adult reading these posts will sort through what is posted. I think it was also fine that you openly disagreed with her, but getting all dog on a bone about how she shouldn't have posted to begin with is weird.

[Alexigail]

I know this is off topic but I think it would be really good to seek some counseling for her. Good luck to you all.

[HS Mom in NC]

Wait, are there people who don't know that this homeschooling and afterschooling chat board on the internet is not a source of professional legal advice?  Well, then we'd better place a public service announcement.  

PSA: Hey, you guys should know that posts at this internet chat forum for homeschoolers and afterschoolers aren't filled with professional lawyers and what you read will be their personal experiences, thoughts, and suggestions, not legal counsel.  So don't go battling over custody based on their opinions without a qualified legal counsel.

Whew!  It's good we cleared that up because the OP might be a mindless drone with no common sense and no ability to discern between a stranger's thoughts and legal counsel. 

Edited November 21, 2016 by Homeschool Mom in AZ

[mommytobees]

People aren't possessions. 

 

Sadly, in family court they are.

 

Kris

[Sdel]

Ugh! This is all worst case scenario. HIGHLY unlikely to actually happen.

 

The mother would have to complain to someone.

Or the aunt would have to complain.

 

And then both of them would have to explain why they are so against the girl going to live with her father, where she wants to be, when neither one of them were equipped to properly care for her.

 

And again.....the aunt let her go see her father. She had to know this was a possibility.

 

No, it's not, and it is very likely.  It's called STATUS QUO.  Courts are charged to maintain status quo unless there is overwhelming evidence that it is best to do otherwise.  The only time preferences really come into play is when the other parent won't fight it.  If the other parent decides to fight it the judges don't just change custody.  Exactly how many custody fights have you personally dealt with where the judge has over turned custody based on the preference of the child?   Ours weren't even particularly contentious, but out of the three, the only ones my DH won were the ones the ex didn't or couldn't disagree.

 

You seem very naive about the core concepts that govern the way the family court operates.  You can't just walk in and throw around a bunch of accusations and have a kid say they want x and expect to walk out with custody.  Not if the other parent doesn't agree to the change.  

 

Sdel

[HS Mom in NC]

No, it's not, and it is very likely.  It's called STATUS QUO.  Courts are charged to maintain status quo unless there is overwhelming evidence that it is best to do otherwise.  The only time preferences really come into play is when the other parent won't fight it.  If the other parent decides to fight it the judges don't just change custody.  Exactly how many custody fights have you personally dealt with where the judge has over turned custody based on the preference of the child?   Ours weren't even particularly contentious, but out of the three, the only ones my DH won were the ones the ex didn't or couldn't disagree.

 

You seem very naive about the core concepts that govern the way the family court operates.  You can't just walk in and throw around a bunch of accusations and have a kid say they want x and expect to walk out with custody.  Not if the other parent doesn't agree to the change.  

 

Sdel

I personally know of half a dozen where the kid's preferences were the deciding factor, including my niece's. And no, her mother didn't agree to her father getting sole custody and the mother didn't even get any visitation because my niece didn't want it.  No abuse accusations were proved in court because the judge understood forcing a kid to visit a parent she was afraid of was counter productive. In the other cases there were no accusations of abuse.  Now joint custody when neither parent has been accused of abuse is more common in my state.

 

Courts vary widely on this within states and across the nation.  That just reinforces the good advice of getting qualified legal counsel before proceeding because you never know, but the fact that you never know applies to you too.  The situations you're experiencing aren't the same everyone else experiences either. 

[foxbridgeacademy]

Paternity was established through the court system when he tried to get custody of her starting at her birth, her mother had put her up for adoption.  We went back and forth to court in Florida for 1 year and a half then the mother got arrested for child neglect and possession.  DSD came to live with us at that time. The mother got her back because we couldn't pay for a lawyer, almost exactly what the judge said.  

 

Right now the plan is to pay the mother off with continued child support.  When DH gets his bonus in March we'll at least get a lawyer to file the correct paperwork here in TN.  I would think since DSD hasn't lived in Florida in almost 10 years Florida would be willing to relinquish their adjudication of her.... I would hope anyway.  We would be willing to do joint custody with us having physical custody and still pay the woman support, prefer a reduced amount, but DSD's future and happiness is more important than $$.

[mommytobees]

Paternity was established through the court system when he tried to get custody of her starting at her birth, her mother had put her up for adoption.  We went back and forth to court in Florida for 1 year and a half then the mother got arrested for child neglect and possession.  DSD came to live with us at that time. The mother got her back because we couldn't pay for a lawyer, almost exactly what the judge said.  

 

Right now the plan is to pay the mother off with continued child support.  When DH gets his bonus in March we'll at least get a lawyer to file the correct paperwork here in TN.  I would think since DSD hasn't lived in Florida in almost 10 years Florida would be willing to relinquish their adjudication of her.... I would hope anyway.  We would be willing to do joint custody with us having physical custody and still pay the woman support, prefer a reduced amount, but DSD's future and happiness is more important than $$.

 

If you are willing to continue to pay support, offer to keep SD and NOT alter the custody arrangements.

 

Get mom to sign a voluntary guardianship for you to keep her saying nothing about CS.

 

Then, after you've had her for 6 months. File for custody in TN.

 

Kris

[shawthorne44]

A good friend of mine had kids with his ex, who is a bad human being.  Mucho drugs, and expected her kids to overnight visit her when she was living with 'friends' that beat the kids.  More than once.  C.S. went with the kids, which was the only reason she wanted them.  Kids many times missed out on sporting events and fun activities to be at home for the scheduled phone call with her that never happened.  Many years of the kids saying "i want to live with my dad.   I hate my mom."  But the mom kept periodically dragging them into court for custody and wasting tons of money in legal fees.   But, then the oldest (16 years old)  hand-wrote a 6 page essay titled something like "I have a crappy birth mother".   That was what did the trick.  Even her own lawyer said it was hopeless at that point.  

 

[foxbridgeacademy]

If you are willing to continue to pay support, offer to keep SD and NOT alter the custody arrangements.

 

Get mom to sign a voluntary guardianship for you to keep her saying nothing about CS.

 

Then, after you've had her for 6 months. File for custody in TN.

 

Kris

yep, that's the plan. Plus we get a bonus from DH's work in March so we'll have the $$ for a lawyer, at least to file the paperwork and maybe represent us in court once.

[foxbridgeacademy]

A good friend of mine had kids with his ex, who is a bad human being.  Mucho drugs, and expected her kids to overnight visit her when she was living with 'friends' that beat the kids.  More than once.  C.S. went with the kids, which was the only reason she wanted them.  Kids many times missed out on sporting events and fun activities to be at home for the scheduled phone call with her that never happened.  Many years of the kids saying "i want to live with my dad.   I hate my mom."  But the mom kept periodically dragging them into court for custody and wasting tons of money in legal fees.   But, then the oldest (16 years old)  hand-wrote a 6 page essay titled something like "I have a crappy birth mother".   That was what did the trick.  Even her own lawyer said it was hopeless at that point.  

Yes, DSD is absolutely willing to write a letter as is her step father and her 1/2 brother (who's 19) about the abuse and using her like slave labor since she was little.  Poor kid had to clean the entire house and no one else had to do anything, brother, step-sister, parents, and her mom didn't work.  They were all pretty much terrorized by the mother.  

[Scarlett]

Yes, DSD is absolutely willing to write a letter as is her step father and her 1/2 brother (who's 19) about the abuse and using her like slave labor since she was little. Poor kid had to clean the entire house and no one else had to do anything, brother, step-sister, parents, and her mom didn't work. They were all pretty much terrorized by the mother.

Ugh.

 

I don't think she will fight by the time you guys file for custody......fighting and getting custody of a baby or toddler is much different than fighting for a 16 year old. When will she be 17?