NM

[Slache]

Thanks for the help!

 

 

 

And neener neener if you missed it!  :001_tt2:

Edited November 16, 2016 by Slache

[MotherGoose]

I think sick but not the kind of sick where she's going to die. Her Brain is sick and it makes her mean (since he obviously feels she is). She doesn't want to be mean. She loves you but her brain is sick and it won't let her tell you right now. And the main thing to say over and over again is that it's not his fault and he did nothing wrong to cause it.

[Guest]

That's hard. I think you're on the right track - don't moralize it, just keep pointing to her wonky biology. She can't help it, her body isn't working right and it's coming out in her behavior and attachment.

 

As they get older you can expand upon that but honestly I think you're doing enough for now. Hugs :(

[JustEm]

At 6 I would be very honest.  My oldest kids are 7 and 6 and I've had to explain mental health issues because of my brother who they think hates everyone.  Essentially, I started by saying that people can be sick with a fever which affects how their body feels(cold, chills, achy, etc.) and people can be sick with issues in their brain that can make their mind feel (angry, confused, sad, disconnected, etc.) Even my almost 4 year old can understand this.

 

The 6 and 7 year old can understand that the mental sickness doesn't mean my brother actually hates them but that he has to fight very hard to not act like he hates them and usually he loses that fight.  But sometimes he doesn't and they have seen those moments too.  However, they also realize that the older people get the more likely their mental state gets worse so seeing those good days becomes rarer.  

[maize]

Talk about how different types of sickness affect different parts of the body. Our stomach can be sick, or our heart, or our lungs, or our brain. Sometimes when a person's brain is sick that person loses the ability to think and act normally, to be friendly and to show love. We need a healthy brain to do all those things. It isn't the person's fault if their brain gets sick, they aren't choosing to act mean but we still sometimes need to stay away from them so that their sick brain behaviors don't hurt us.

[JustEm]

as my oldest, who will be 8 soon, continues to ask questions I start naming the actual illness.  He knows I suffer from depression, his uncle does too but his is much worse.  He knows my uncle suffers from schizophrenia and the symptoms associated with it. My 6 year listens and understands as well as she can.

[Slache]

as my oldest, who will be 8 soon, continues to ask questions I start naming the actual illness. He knows I suffer from depression, his uncle does too but his is much worse. He knows my uncle suffers from schizophrenia and the symptoms associated with it. My 6 year listens and understands as well as she can.

How do I figure out what's wrong with her?

[maize]

How do I figure out what's wrong with her?

You can't if she is not willing to be evaluated by a mental health professional.

 

What is sad is that there is a good chance appropriate treatment could improve her life massively--but she would have to be willing to accept it.

[AimeeM]

How do I figure out what's wrong with her?

Your mother? (I'm medicated after a dental appointment, so please, please excuse me if the answer here is obvious, lol)

 

Is it just an assumption that she's mentally ill or does she have a dx?

 

At 6, you could name the mental illness if you have a name for it. But if your 6 year old is like my 7 year old, the concept of it will not be understood. I think you're handling it fine as is. 

[Slache]

You can't if she is not willing to be evaluated by a mental health professional.

 

What is sad is that there is a good chance appropriate treatment could improve her life massively--but she would have to be willing to accept it.

There's a cycle of "I'm broken, I need therapy", she goes to therapy, she finds out everything is her boss/parents/2 ex- husbands/my fault so she quits her job and tells everyone to F off, then comes crawling back 6 months later "I'm broken, I need therapy..."

 

I've always just rolled with it, but now my kids are along for the ride so we've decided to get off. :(

[Slache]

Your mother? (I'm medicated after a dental appointment, so please, please excuse me if the answer here is obvious, lol)

 

Is it just an assumption that she's mentally ill or does she have a dx?

 

At 6, you could name the mental illness if you have a name for it. But if your 6 year old is like my 7 year old, the concept of it will not be understood. I think you're handling it fine as is.

:lol: Go to bed, honey. Yes, my mother, and it's just an assumption.

[Guest]

How do I figure out what's wrong with her?

 

Nevermind- you posted the answers before my post went up. 

 

I'm sorry you're having to deal with this.  :grouphug:

Edited November 15, 2016 by texasmom33

[Slache]

Is this long term behavior on her part or a recent change?

Long term, continually becoming worse.

[Guest]

.

Edited September 11, 2020 by Æthelthryth the Texan

[JustEm]

You don't need to name it. If you want him to understand mental illnesses better and he's able to comprehend you can name a few different common types of mental illnesses and their symptoms.  Explain that a dr has never figured out what your mother has but the symptoms of a mental illness are all there so you can be pretty sure she has one and it is only getting worse.

[Guest]

We just said that now is not a good time, and that grandma isnt able to show affection due to her illness. When she is able to enjoy our company we will visit.

 

It is really helpful to have friends or neighbors who are in that age range and dont have mental health issues, so they dont think all older people are mean, or unable to show any affection. We did tell them that a doctor was trying to help, as there is help available for those ready for it.

[Slache]

You don't need to name it. If you want him to understand mental illnesses better and he's able to comprehend you can name a few different common types of mental illnesses and their symptoms. Explain that a dr has never figured out what your mother has but the symptoms of a mental illness are all there so you can be pretty sure she has one and it is only getting worse.

I want to know what it is because I probably have the same thing! My grandmother and aunt have it.

[Janeway]

Is she mentally ill or just a bad person?

 

I know in this society, we like to feel-good and say really good people are just really good, but bad people are mentally ill. 

 

If she is really just mentally ill and refusing treatment, then..eventually..I would explain that, in terms of how a brain functions and such. If she has dementia, I would explain that. But if she is just a mean person, it might be correct to explain that some people are not good people and it is important to have boundaries and enough respect for ourselves and self-preservation to protect ourselves.

[Guest]

I want to know what it is because I probably have the same thing! My grandmother and aunt have it.

What are the symptoms, aside from what you have mentioned re: showing affection?

[Anne in CA]

I agree with everyone who said be honest. I raised my oldest because her mother went off the rails. She got busted for drugs (enough that she was arrested with intent to sell) but her real issues were probably BPD. My dh lied constantly to dd telling her that her mother just needed some help and would get better. Ummm, nope, and dd had a huge crash when she was 15 and realized her mother would NEVER get better. It was very devastating for dd. Everyone else involved told dh to handle it differently, but he did not want to hurt dd. He also really, really believed that his ex did not have a personality disorder (even though mental health officials warned him this was probably the case) and would get better some day and be a good mom. 

 

The wishful thinking was very destructive to my dd. 

[maize]

There's a cycle of "I'm broken, I need therapy", she goes to therapy, she finds out everything is her boss/parents/2 ex- husbands/my fault so she quits her job and tells everyone to F off, then comes crawling back 6 months later "I'm broken, I need therapy..."

 

I've always just rolled with it, but now my kids are along for the ride so we've decided to get off. :(

Does she always go back to the same therapist?

 

Because it doesn't sound like whoever she is seeing is very good. Though even good therapists can be snowed by a client's perception of reality at times and unintentionally reinforce false perceptions.

 

Has she ever been to a psychiatrist?

 

The fact that she has sought therapy would seem to indicate that she is at least sometimes open to the idea of needing professional help; it just doesn't sound like she has been able to get the kind she needs.

[maize]

The first thing that comes to mind with cycling behavior changes is bipolar, but you've given us little info to work on. I wouldn't assume you have it, whatever it is, unless you are experiencing similar symptoms--there tends to be a genetic component to mental illness but you only got half of your mom's genes.

[Slache]

Is she mentally ill or just a bad person?

 

 Both, I think. 

What are the symptoms, aside from what you have mentioned re: showing affection?

Lies all. the. time. About everything.

 

She responds to things weird. I can't explain this so here are some examples.

 

Me: I was given a lovely gift.

Her:You're selfish and your priorities are wrong.

 

Her: How's your dad?

Me: Good, he just came up for a visit.

Her: He's obviously turned back to alcohol and you should never see him.

 

Me: Here's the address you requested for the baby shower.

Her: You don't deserve gifts from me, I'm not coming.

 

There are also random outbursts about how I don't deserve anything from her (I don't ask her for things, not even at the holidays). It's the weirdest stuff too. Like swimming lessons for the kids. "I'm not paying for swimming lessons for your d*mn kids. You're too hideous to be seen in a bathing suit anyway. It's embarrassing." I didn't even want the kids in swimming lessons. And she refused to buy my son a scooter or pogo stick before he could walk.

 

And when I was a kid she would torture me when I did something wrong. Once I didn't do the dishes so she made me eat the hardened bacon grease the next day and threatened to beat me if I vomited. I vomited, but she didn't. She was a "good mother who didn't believe children should be physically disciplined."

[MotherGoose]

This sounds like a personality disorder to me, not bipolar or whatever. It is still a mental illness, of course, but not really in the same way.

[Slache]

Does she always go back to the same therapist?

Because it doesn't sound like whoever she is seeing is very good. Though even good therapists can be snowed by a client's perception of reality at times and unintentionally reinforce false perceptions.

Has she ever been to a psychiatrist?

The fact that she has sought therapy would seem to indicate that she is at least sometimes open to the idea of needing professional help; it just doesn't sound like she has been able to get the kind she needs.

No, she's always moving. She's self destructive and ruins her relationships and jobs so she moves to get away from everyone.

[Slache]

This sounds like a personality disorder to me, not bipolar or whatever. It is still a mental illness, of course, but not really in the same way.

What's the difference?

[MotherGoose]

And really abusive, to the point that I don't know if I'd want my kids around her at all. When I read your original post, I thought grandma had changed and was depressed or schizophrenic or something, and kids had noticed a change in behavior. But your last post reads like she's just plain abusive, with a personality disorder, and not something I particularly would want my kids around at all. She's not my mom, of course. But it sounds like you've been dealing with this your whole life and this is nothing new. I'm saying this gently but directly. It's your mom and your kids. Hugs and I'm sorry you are going through this.

[Slache]

And really abusive, to the point that I don't know if I'd want my kids around her at all. When I read your original post, I thought grandma had changed and was depressed or schizophrenic or something, and kids had noticed a change in behavior. But your last post reads like she's just plain abusive, with a personality disorder, and not something I particularly would want my kids around at all. She's not my mom, of course. But it sounds like you've been dealing with this your whole life and this is nothing new. I'm saying this gently but directly. It's your mom and your kids. Hugs and I'm sorry you are going through this.

They won't be seeing her anymore.

 

I have a very good husband to take care of me and the kids have wonderful grandparents and elderly church friends that know all about the situation. I imagine we're better off than most people with this problem.

[maize]

Here is an overview of personality disorders:

 

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hide-and-seek/201205/the-10-personality-disorders

 

They are not well understood as to causes and are difficult to treat--not least because those who suffer from them rarely recognize or acknowledge that they themselves have a problem rather than everyone they interact with being the source of problems.

[MotherGoose]

Here is an overview of personality disorders:

 

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hide-and-seek/201205/the-10-personality-disorders

 

They are not well understood as to causes and are difficult to treat--not least because those who suffer from them rarely recognize or acknowledge that they themselves have a problem rather than everyone they interact with being the source of problems.

And often people with the more treatable, if compliant with meds, illnesses like depression and schizophrenia, can experience or remember a time when they felt better. With personality disorders, there's usually unrelenting experience of being the way they are all their life and it's someone else's fault. It's easier, and more accurate, to convince depressed or schizophrenic folks that the meds will truly help.

[Slache]

Here is an overview of personality disorders:

 

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hide-and-seek/201205/the-10-personality-disorders

 

They are not well understood as to causes and are difficult to treat--not least because those who suffer from them rarely recognize or acknowledge that they themselves have a problem rather than everyone they interact with being the source of problems.

Nevermind. Thanks! Edited November 16, 2016 by Slache

[Slache]

And often people with the more treatable, if compliant with meds, illnesses like depression and schizophrenia, can experience or remember a time when they felt better. With personality disorders, there's usually unrelenting experience of being the way they are all their life and it's someone else's fault. It's easier, and more accurate, to convince depressed or schizophrenic folks that the meds will truly help.

Yes! Everything is everyone else's fault, including myself as an infant. I was mean to her as a baby and ruined motherhood for her. Nothing is ever her fault. She always does right and always is right. She forgets her mistakes almost immediately, even the bad ones like when her dog died a horrible, accidental death at her hands.

[Slache]

This is fun.

[Slache]

How do we know personality disorders are a real thing and not an excuse to be jerks?

[MotherGoose]

Well I think the overriding idea is that there is a cluster of common symptoms that lead to the diagnosis of a personality disorder. Even certifiable jerks, like serial killers, can usually be diagnosed with a personality disorder like antisocial personality disorder. So in the mindset of the psychologists, there are no jerks, no one wants to be a jerk, everyone wants to be a kind, normal person, but some people have personality disorders and are "sick " in some way, and they aren't able to be.

[Farrar]

Rachel, why do you think you have the same thing? It doesn't sound like what I know of you for sure. Even if there's a genetic component, it doesn't mean you'll end up like that. And if it's environmental, you've broken the cycle by recognizing the behavior as unhealthy.

 

I agree with others that you're on the right track with how you're talking about it, just keep being clear and honest. Don't overinform with details of your speculation, just explain mental illness and so forth.

[Guest]

How do we know personality disorders are a real thing and not an excuse to be jerks?

I think it becomes a matter of degree as well as etiology and control (how does it come on? When? How severe? Are they seemingly in control of it?).

 

Some people are selfish, egotistical assholes who use the people around them and make excuses for the motives of everyone but their own. And they don't have a mental illness. Then there are folks who look like that and honestly can't help it. It's so tricky to tell the difference but the cyclical/impulsive side of it, degree, commonalities in what brings it out, whether the individual can exercise control over these aspects of themselves or seem to kind of get swept up/taken over, etc, would be things I'd look for. And even then I'm not sure you can know definitively, but I try to err on the side of assuming someone can't help it when it gets to the point that it is destroying their life instead of being used for their benefit.

 

Healthy people don't make decisions that consistently ruin the best things in their lives, you know?

Edited November 16, 2016 by Arctic Mama

[Slache]

Rachel, why do you think you have the same thing? It doesn't sound like what I know of you for sure. Even if there's a genetic component, it doesn't mean you'll end up like that. And if it's environmental, you've broken the cycle by recognizing the behavior as unhealthy.

 

I agree with others that you're on the right track with how you're talking about it, just keep being clear and honest. Don't overinform with details of your speculation, just explain mental illness and so forth.

She didn't used to be this bad. She was nice when I was very young, some of the time. I do think environment plays a huge roll. Her life has sucked and it's not all her fault. My concern is that she and I have the same thing, but it presents itself more in her due to circumstances and age. After looking at the personality disorders though I think I know what's wrong with her and I definitely don't have it. People always call her narcissistic and pretty much anyone can be a narcissist in training, but she matches histrionic personality disorder, which I think I could easily recognize in myself.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Lot of mental illness in my family.  I tell my kids like it is.  And there were some hairy moments when my kids were little.  Believe me.  One family member made quite a scene once while visiting.  She even told my toddler that she hated him.  Which was just some random crazy talk because there was nothing that set that off.  He does not remember it.  I did distance myself from her after that because she did so many things I just couldn't deal with anymore. 

 

It's very hard.  :grouphug:

[Farrar]

I still thinking recognizing it has got to be the most essential thing in prevention down the line.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I still thinking recognizing it has got to be the most essential thing in prevention down the line.

 

I admit I did a half butted job reading this thread, but preventing what exactly?

[Farrar]

I admit I did a half butted job reading this thread, but preventing what exactly?

 

She's afraid she has the same long term tendencies.

[SparklyUnicorn]

She's afraid she has the same long term tendencies.

 

I don't really see how that can be prevented though. 

[Slache]

I don't really see how that can be prevented though.

It can't, but it can be recognised and treated.

[SparklyUnicorn]

It can't, but it can be recognised and treated.

 

Huh, well what treatments are there? 

[Farrar]

I don't really see how that can be prevented though. 

 

The interplay between environment and so forth is more complex with mental illness. I mean, I don't know much about this personality disorder she suspects, but don't you think that if you know it's a danger for you that you're going to behave in a way that you don't like that you can change that behavior? Not that it's necessarily easy or simple, but definitely possible.

 

I feel like I'm relying on my kids knowing they have a genetic tendency to alcoholism in their makeup to help them out there. I've got to believe that knowing and that seeing their father in control of his own disease is going to have a big positive effect.

 

ETA: Prevention is the wrong term... you're right. Treatment and control though. Yeah, for sure. And early intervention is obviously better for any issue medical or psychological.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Farrar

[SparklyUnicorn]

The interplay between environment and so forth is more complex with mental illness. I mean, I don't know much about this personality disorder she suspects, but don't you think that if you know it's a danger for you that you're going to behave in a way that you don't like that you can change that behavior? Not that it's necessarily easy or simple, but definitely possible.

 

I feel like I'm relying on my kids knowing they have a genetic tendency to alcoholism in their makeup to help them out there. I've got to believe that knowing and that seeing their father in control of his own disease is going to have a big positive effect.

 

 I wish that were true. 

 

I worry about my kids because of the genetic factors, but truth is, except that I might be more versed than most, there is nothing I can do that is going to make it easier if it happens. 

 

But that's what I know of certain types of illnesses.  I don't know about all of them.

[Plink]

I always try to give kids a point of reference.

 

Remember last year when you had the stomach flu. How would you have felt if Mommy came and gave you a big bear hug around your tummy? Lousy right? Does that mean that you no longer loved Mommy's hugs? No, you were just sick. That's what some people go through when they have (specific diagnosis). They are hurting on the inside, so they aren't able to show or receive love the way that healthy people usually do. The kindest thing we can do for them is to give them time to get better. Want to be her special helper? You could paint her a picture or write her a note. I'm sure she'd love that. (You don't need to mail the project, but making it can be helpful for kids to process change)

[Slache]

Huh, well what treatments are there? 

At the very least I think I'd make a happy drunk.

 

Prevention is the wrong term... you're right. Treatment and control though. Yeah, for sure. And early intervention is obviously better for any issue medical or psychological.

And having my husband and children informed with the possibilities.

[Farrar]

 I wish that were true. 

 

I worry about my kids because of the genetic factors, but truth is, except that I might be more versed than most, there is nothing I can do that is going to make it easier if it happens. 

 

But that's what I know of certain types of illnesses.  I don't know about all of them.

 

For dh, he feels betrayed that his parents knew that there had been deep alcohol issues and mental illness in the family and they kept it from him. He feels like he wouldn't have gotten as far down the path as he got had he known. And when I say they kept it from him... oh my gosh, they are so weirdly closed off and cagey about family history stuff. I mean, when I think about the question Rachel is asking, it's also like, she's starting that journey now by being honest and saying, this is what mental illness is, this is the responsible way to deal with it and treat it, etc.