Help me brainstorm alternatives? (s/o - What is college?)

[Jenny in Florida]

I'll spare you all repeating the entire story, but if you want the basics, here's the post I wrote last night that got me thinking about this issue: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/624303-what-is-college/?p=7203446

 

So, basically, let's assume you have a young adult family member who is:

 

1. Super bright.

2. Talented in multiple ways (singing, dancing, acting, building sets and costumes and puppets . . .)

3. Ultimately interested in possibly teaching and/or running his own school or performance group or theatre.

4. Great at school, but mostly uninterested in academics.

 

Mom has a degree, Dad doesn't, and the entire family has seen over the last several decades what a difference that credential makes in opening doors. Even your older YA, who got a somewhat generic degree in theatre just a few years ago has already discovered that having a degree -- any degree -- qualifies her for day jobs (teaching, admin, etc.) that allow her to support herself while she works toward her big break. 

 

Mom also happens to be one of those starry-eyed idealists who believes that college isn't job training, that one should go to college in order to actually learn and become a better educated person.

 

If we assume that YA in question has two years (almost three, counting dual enrollment) of college under his belt but no degree yet, has decided to change course and pursue a degree that totally makes sense but to do so by applying to a program to which the odds of admission aren't great (trying not to repeat details from the linked post) . . .

 

How would you help that YA brainstorm alternatives and back-up plans?

 

Remember that, although YA understands the benefits of having a degree and genuinely enjoys learning under the right circumstances, he is not driven enough about the general idea of "college" to devote a whole lot of energy to researching possibilities. Also, because he is bright and talented, he has rarely been turned down for anything he really, really wants, and so, although he knows the odds of admission to said program, he may be having trouble processing/accepting that there is a meaningful chance he won't get in.

 

One of Mom's roles in this family is researcher: When any family member considers making a major move or a big purchase, Mom pitches in by doing a lot of premilimary research and helping to narrow down options. Mom is entirely willing to do the same for this YA, but is feeling pretty stumped about where to look.

 

Mom, Dad and YA have bounced around several possibilities, including YA finishing a generic "theatre studies" degree at the state university (which hosts the program he really wants) if he is not accepted into the program of his choice while trying to seek out more focused training on the side via internships or apprenticships. The potential downsides there are that there's only so much time in a day or a week for a YA to work/train/go to school . . . and the YA finds the requirements for the generic theatre degree uninspiring (which Mom totally understands). 

 

Other colleges are, of course, a possibility, but there really isn't anything else local enough to commute that offers a comparable program. And, for a vareity of reasons, both financial and personal, YA strongly wants to stay local to finish the degree.

 

Mom has quietly suggested to Dad that an acceptable back-up might be for YA to complete the currently-in-progress performance-focused theatre A.A., then return to the community college for one more year to polish off an A.S. in theatre design and technology, then look for some kind of internship or apprenticeship. Dad strongly prefers that Mom not even submit this option to YA for consideration, because YA would spend four years in college and still not end up with a bachelor's degree, and Dad feels that the two years YA spent at the expensive private university would be "wasted."

 

Mom and Dad are definitely in YA's corner and want to support YA in whatever ways they can; however, their pockets are not terribly deep. 

 

Mom is starting to have the nagging feeling that there might be some out-of-the box alternatives that would be worth investigating, but her research has not yet turned up anything helpful.

 

If this were your YA, where would you start? What would you advise?

 

Edited September 17, 2016 by Jenny in Florida

[Joules]

I would advise (as a backup to the desired BFA program) looking at distance learning BA programs through a reputable state university.  Getting that degree will make a difference in the long-run, and I think he'll be glad he did.  Mom would have to research the one that would provide maximum transfer credit for what he already has, but I think the flexible hours of an online program would fit with a grueling theater schedule.  Even though YA may not be old enough to be a "non-traditional student," he may take advantage of some of the programs designed to help get a degree while working full-time.

 

ETA: For example, this looks like a nice generic degree: https://distance.fsu.edu/students/social-science-bs

 

Edited September 17, 2016 by Joules

[Gwen in VA]

I'm going to play devil's advocate.

 

In dh's and my families, getting a prestigious college degree (not just any degree will do, you know! <sarcasm alert>) is a rite of adulthood. No one born after 1930 has questioned that foundational assumption -- except my ds2.

 

He went to college and left after his freshman year. The ENTIRE world predicted doom and destruction. You wouldn't believe the nasty things people have said to me about his decision. Three years later, we are so glad that he decided to drop out! Seriously, at a time in his life when most people his age are just heading into the work force, he already has an amazing career. And if he ever needs a college degree, he is bright and motivated and capable and he'll get one!

 

So my question to him (and you) is -- what would he do if he didn't attend college? Maybe he doesn't need the degree as much as you think. And maybe not spending the time and energy pursuing what may be a worthless piece of paper will motivate him to really get moving in the direction he wants to go. And if he ever needs a degree -- hey, he can go and get one!

 

Just my two cents!

Edited September 17, 2016 by Gwen in VA

[GoodGrief]

If I'm remembering right, this YA is quite young, correct? Graduated from high school and started college significantly early?

 

It really wouldn't be shocking if he needed extra time to figure this all out. Especially if he is artsy/right-brained. The talented artistic people that I know tend to need to dabble :-)

 

Of course, that doesn't mean you have the money to support extended schooling, whatever the form. If he's open to it, I definitely would help brainstorm alternatives.

 

As far as the associates degree, is there real value in his completing that at this time? Would he be better served just working in his field for a time, and gaining clearer vision of what he wants to do?

 

[GailV]

Random thoughts:

 

Dancers tend to go into company while they're young and can dance well, then get their degrees later (like, when their knees start to give out).  Is this a possibility for him?

 

Household opinions here are that associates in theatre are pretty much a waste, so we're voting with your dh on that part.

 

What about a business degree for future business he will be running -- his own school, his own company, or whatnot.

 

If older dd were here she'd probably have more thoughts ... she's getting dual degrees in tech theater and electrical engineering, and has many, many opinions on who is doing what, and which schools.  Do you have access to other twenty-somethings (via older sibling, perhaps?) that can brainstorm?  Or is that too intrusive?

[Jenny in Florida]

So my question to him (and you) is -- what would he do if he didn't attend college? Maybe he doesn't need the degree as much as you think. And maybe not spending the time and energy pursuing what may be a worthless piece of paper will motivate him to really get moving in the direction he wants to go. And if he ever needs a degree -- hey, he can go and get one!

 

Just my two cents!

 

If he weren't pursuing a degree, he'd be doing the exact same things he's doing when he's not in school: working, studying things that interest him, etc.

 

Our concern with the "he can go and get one" theory is that both my husband and I know exaclty how much more difficult it becomes to do that once life actually gets underway. I walked away from an opportunity to get a master's degree nearly tuition free because I was "so busy" and "I could always do it later," except that once I was working and had bills to pay and other people I was responsible for, it got harder and harder to find the time and money to do it. Now I'm 50+ and looking at years of paying off other debts and facing the fact that some of the jobs I would love to pursue in this stage of my career are out of the realm of possibility, because I lack that degree.

 

My husband, similarly, did so well without a degree for long that it seemed silly to invest the time and money into going to school when he felt no burning desire to go. We used to joke about "buying him a degree on the internet," but even though he's worked for years for a company that provides tuition reimbursement as a benefit, he never took advantage. When the kids were little, he didn't want to take away from family time to go to school. Then we had a long stretch during which it would have been a hardship to come up with the money up front for tuition and books, even knowing a big chunk would get reimbursed later. Then, when he was in his late 40s, he hit a wall in his career, and it became clear that he would never advance beyond a certain point without a degree. By that time, he couldn't muster the energy and focus to begin what would have been at least an eight-year process (starting from zero and going part-time). So, he will spend the rest of his career essentially circling his current pay grade.

 

I'm sure there are lots of folks for whom this never happens, people who happily roam off on their own, individual paths and never miss the formal crediential. But, given our experiences, it's not a chance we're willing to encourage our kids to take.

[Jenny in Florida]

If I'm remembering right, this YA is quite young, correct? Graduated from high school and started college significantly early?

 

It really wouldn't be shocking if he needed extra time to figure this all out. Especially if he is artsy/right-brained. The talented artistic people that I know tend to need to dabble :-)

 

Of course, that doesn't mean you have the money to support extended schooling, whatever the form. If he's open to it, I definitely would help brainstorm alternatives.

 

As far as the associates degree, is there real value in his completing that at this time? Would he be better served just working in his field for a time, and gaining clearer vision of what he wants to do?

 

Well, he's 18 now, not so young any longer. We're totally okay with him taking a little extra time, which is why no one is freaking out about the year back at the community college and the change in direction.  

 

I've known in my heart and gut all along, though, that if he ever takes any meaningful amount of time off school, he just won't go back. I actually stalled him getting his first regular paid job until this past summer, because I had a hunch that making what he perceived as a significant chunk of money would encourage him to feel even less invested in school. And, to some degree, we are seeing that now. He's currently working more hours per week than I think is strictly healthy and certainly more than is conducive to being a good student, but he's gotten very intentional about making and saving money. That's a great trait, and we're supportive, but the last thing I want to do is to encourage him to "take a break" from school, because that will be the end of it, I feel sure.

 

The A.A. is happening because it:

• makes it easier for him to transfer to the state university. (The information from his targeted program strongly encourages students who insist on applying to transfer in to have done the associate's first.)
• gives him a specific, intermediate goal rather than just another year of aimless classwork.
• means that, if my concerns come to fruition and he does quit school, he will have at least some formal credential he can check off on job applications in the future.

[J-rap]

My ds has artistic aspirations, and at first did the NYC bit with the Academy and all.  But, being the very detailed, analytical person that he is, it bugged him too much to not have a degree, so he finally went back to school to get his BA in business management.  I'm pretty sure he hated every minute of it, but now as he pursues his real love, in the arts, he can also get a practical job that he actually enjoys for as long as necessary to bring in the money.  So in his situation, this has worked out well and he is comfortable with it all.  He still is very active in film and has some exciting projects going on right now, but he feels secure with the BA degree.  Just one perspective.  It's not something we pressured him into at all, it was just the decision he came to on his own.

[elegantlion]

 

 

I'm sure there are lots of folks for whom this never happens, people who happily roam off on their own, individual paths and never miss the formal crediential. But, given our experiences, it's not a chance we're willing to encourage our kids to take.

 

I agree. Ex is now in a position where his health only allows him to work part-time. He's not trained to do anything but (physical field). Had he returned to school in his 30s, he'd have options now. He was busy and working long hours then, and now doesn't even have the physical capacity to consider retraining. I'm a 49 year old college junior. Many of my desired career options are now out of the realm of reality for me. 

 

For us, our experience has been enough (hopefully!) to show ds that a degree while younger is still the better option. I don't know that he's totally bought into  that idea. Right now he's still listening enough for me to remind him that where he wants to live won't be possible with a degree of some sort and that, yes, some general studies classes are going to be necessary. I use my ex and myself as the "bad" example. 

 

IIRC, your YA is considering owning their own business someday. I would encourage some business classes, maybe even a AA in Business. His other experience may may him a great teacher, but transitioning that to a good business owner is different. What about getting business loans? What kind of credentials are required for that in his field? I hate hoop jumping, ds hates hoop jumping, but there are some that are necessary to reach our goals. A business degree might give him an edge over other theater people of his age. 

 

I would push toward finishing a degree, even if it's an AA. That way there is something tangible out of the experience. The two years away might seem wasted, but they were still an investment and he was shaping his priorities, not a waste, although maybe an expensive lesson. 

 

I do think you have a right as a parent who has invested so much to say that he needs to finish a degree. I realize he's an adult and can do what he wants, but I think you've earned that right. 

 

I would write out long term goals and work backward. I would add backup plans along the way hoping to help him see how a degree now can ward off complications later. 

[Jenny in Florida]

Random thoughts:

 

Dancers tend to go into company while they're young and can dance well, then get their degrees later (like, when their knees start to give out).  Is this a possibility for him?

 

Household opinions here are that associates in theatre are pretty much a waste, so we're voting with your dh on that part.

 

What about a business degree for future business he will be running -- his own school, his own company, or whatnot.

 

If older dd were here she'd probably have more thoughts ... she's getting dual degrees in tech theater and electrical engineering, and has many, many opinions on who is doing what, and which schools.  Do you have access to other twenty-somethings (via older sibling, perhaps?) that can brainstorm?  Or is that too intrusive?

 

He's not that kind of dancer. He's a musical theatre/tap dancer, not ballet or classical. There are no "companies" for him to sign on with.

 

As I mentioned above (which I know was after you posted this), he's doing the A.A. for some specific reasons (because it's recommended for students trying to transfer into the university program, so he has a clear goal for this year and so that, if he does end up quitting before the bachelor's, he'll have at least some piece of paper before he heads out into the world). 

 

Alongside the A.A., he's doing a technical certificate in entertainment design and tech, which is what he thinks he'd like to study formally. The community college also has an A.S. in that field, which is designed as more of a vocational program to prep students to go directly to work. In some ways, it would make more sense for him to do that one, since it aligns more closely with his interests, but the A.S. doesn't serve the same purpose when it comes to transferring (doesn't check off the gen ed boxes in the same neat way). Although there is some overlap in basic class requirements between the A.A. and A.S., the programs diverge quite a bit in the second half/second year, which is why I was thinking that it might be worth his time, if nothing else appeals, to just take the one additional year and finish up the more hands-on, vocational credential.

 

I've suggested the business degree a number of times, but that idea has not gained any traction.

 

He knows a ton of people in the theatre community locally and through his big sister, but there are more opinions than there are people, and most of those opinions seem to be highly subjective. 

[Jenny in Florida]

IIRC, your YA is considering owning their own business someday. I would encourage some business classes, maybe even a AA in Business. His other experience may may him a great teacher, but transitioning that to a good business owner is different. What about getting business loans? What kind of credentials are required for that in his field? I hate hoop jumping, ds hates hoop jumping, but there are some that are necessary to reach our goals. A business degree might give him an edge over other theater people of his age. 

 

I would push toward finishing a degree, even if it's an AA. That way there is something tangible out of the experience. The two years away might seem wasted, but they were still an investment and he was shaping his priorities, not a waste, although maybe an expensive lesson. 

 

I do think you have a right as a parent who has invested so much to say that he needs to finish a degree. I realize he's an adult and can do what he wants, but I think you've earned that right. 

 

I would write out long term goals and work backward. I would add backup plans along the way hoping to help him see how a degree now can ward off complications later. 

 

He is on schedule to finish the A.A. by this spring. He actually could have done it in one semester, especially if he had added another CLEP exam or two to his agenda, but he opted to spread out the remaining A.A. requirements and the requirements for the certificate program over the full academic year.

 

I should probably be clear that he's not resisting the idea of finishing the bachelor's. I think he wants it for his own sake, but he also knows it's important to me and wants to honor that. It's just that all of us would much prefer that the time and energy he invests in making that happen have some intrinsic worth, in addition to the piece of paper he'll gain at the end. I think (hope) that the program he wants to transfer into at the university would give him that opportunity; I just wish there were a valid back-up plan in case that doesn't work out.

 

But, yes, small business loans, attracting students and investors - those are exactly the kinds of things that he understands may be much more attainable with recognizable credentials in addition to his training and natural talent.

[chiguirre]

Could he apply as a freshman to the 4 yr program and just take the classes he needs for the degree? If he has a ton of transfer credit, he could just go part time to do the specific classes he needs to get the degree while he works locally. You'd have to map out what will transfer, what classes have prereqs, and when the classes are offered (just fall or spring or both), but maybe he could do the whole 4 yr program in 3 years?