How to explain that math grades were provided verbally?

[quark]

One of DS's math providers does not give grades so I asked him what he would give DS if I wanted to put down grades in the transcript and he said "just give him an A for each course".

 

However, he didn't explain how to break that down into percentages and I am not able to get back in touch with him at the moment (DS doesn't use him anymore). Even if I asked him I don't think he will be able to answer the question. This tutor has never given DS a test. Instead he worked with him very closely online (for several of DS's math courses) using an online whiteboard. They would discuss proofs/ explanations thoroughly and the tutor then assigned homework but he also did not come back to DS with homework grades. When DS completed homework, he would self check and correct etc before handing it in (I bought the solutions keys). I believe the tutor only checked to see that homework was completed and didn't grade or go over the problems with DS. Anytime DS had questions, he would ask the tutor during class and they would discuss (with lots of diagrams and to and fro-ing discussions and so on) till both were satisfied that DS was understanding everything. I am guessing that the tutor "graded" DS with an A based on achieving satisfactory mastery of content.

 

Would love ideas on how to explain this in the course descriptions/ school profile (and which document do you suggest I use to explain it?).

 

One more Q: after algebra I, all of DS's math courses have required solving with proofs (and all his courses have been highly challenging). Should I make that clear in the course descriptions or is that already expected and hence, too repetitive? The reason I am asking is that I realized after speaking to a number of parents of kids here who go to leading public schools that many of these kids don't know how to write math proofs! 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Maybe explain that they worked to mastery on the topics?

 

 

[regentrude]

You can put in the course description: "Evaluation: oral exam".

In the school profile, you can talk in general about your approach to his math education. 

 

I would not really explain anything. I don't see this as such an out of the box approach and have never heard of colleges asking how a particular grade was created. As long as the grades are in line with the test scores, I highly doubt anybody is even mildly curious about percentages etc.

 

Edited July 13, 2016 by regentrude

[Julie of KY]

IF you explain, I'd say taught to mastery and oral examination.

I just list the grade and don't bother to say how it was achieved. I don't break it down into percentages of how the grade was achieved. I only list the topics covered, text, and grade.

 

Edited to add that I would highlight the proof work in the course description, though I'm not sure how much it'll matter.

Edited July 13, 2016 by Julie of KY

[EKS]

You don't have to put how the student was evaluated in the course descriptions.  In fact, I consciously decided not to because I felt it was opening a can of worms.

[Mom22ns]

You don't have to put how the student was evaluated in the course descriptions.  In fact, I consciously decided not to because I felt it was opening a can of worms.

 

This. I didn't want to get into how every course was evaluated. I certainly didn't mention it anywhere in my documentation that went to colleges. The letter grade on the transcript was all they got from me. I'd go with that.

 

If you are explaining all your courses, then I'd use the "Taught to mastery. Evaluated by oral exam" suggested by others.

[Haiku]

Would love ideas on how to explain this in the course descriptions/ school profile (and which document do you suggest I use to explain it?).

 

I would just say the tutor awarded an A based on mastery of material.

[JoanHomeEd]

In our case, we engaged a high school English teacher to grade the literature essays.

So in the school profile I said something like,

"Whenever possible, self-study courses were validated externally. For instance, literature analysis essays were sent to essay evaluators to determine the course grades."

 

For self-studied math classes, I put down,

"Certain math classes were evaluated based on problems completed and performance in that year's math competition." 

 

Now, English as a whole was supported by the ACT & SAT scores and the AP English Lit score.

Math abilities were also "proven" by the grades from an online high school gifted provider, the ACT & SAT scores, the AP Calc score, the summer classes, the university math classes, and ultimately the math competition results. 

 

IMHO, it is certainly a good idea to highlight the ability to write proofs.

There are a number of ways to do it.

 

For us, we put it in the counselor letter. You can describe it like this,

"When the student was taking the high school proof-based geometry, the instructor informed me that he had only given A+’s to two students in his ten years of teaching. Additionally, the student has a deep sense of aesthetics. More than once, the student has exclaimed about beautiful mathematical proofs, including some that the student discovered on his own."

 

The instructor writing your son's LOR might mention it.

In DC's case, one of the recommendations came from a college Math prof. I do not know what he wrote, but it probably contains something related to what they did in the class.

 

Also, if there is a specific project or math contest/talent search where proofs were written, you can either mention it, site the results (blog it and give the URL), or submit it as a supplement.

 

Incidentally, I really like (actually, I think it saved my life as the homeschool mom wearing the counselor hat) 

what one homeschool mom summed up about the difference between the school profile and the counselor letter. 

 

The school profile is about the homeschool whereas the counselor letter is about the student.

 

I did not submit the course descriptions.

 

HTH

 

ETA: Besides ECs, Chem, etc... DC also mentioned about Math in the essays. I only submitted 1 "consolidated" high school transcript. No outside providers' transcripts. The college transcripts were only sent after acceptance and to determine college credits earned. Also, after acceptance, in order to determine placement, certain profs also want to see the course descriptions for the college classes taken to decide whether to grant the credits or not.

Edited July 13, 2016 by JoanHomeEd

[AngieW in Texas]

I never needed anything like that kind of detail. None of the colleges my kids applied to were even interested in course descriptions or booklists.

 

I just provided a transcript with letter grades on it and I did not mess with plus or minus either.

 

I  never had a single college request more information.

 

One of the universities that my youngest applied to had not had a hsed student from outside of NY before. In NY, the state "certifies" that your hs meets all the requirements and we don't have anything like that here in Texas. I did have to meet with the admissions department because they kept asking for things that don't exist in Texas, like letters from the ISD or the state certifying board or overseeing hs organization. They ultimately decided that what I did for the schools my kids applied to in Texas would work. I just submitted a transcript with the course names and grades and then had it notarized.

 

They didn't ask for anything about HOW the grades were determined or what methods we used for evaluation or anything else. I actually think that providing far more information than they have actually asked for sets up a bad precedent because then they will come to expect it from everybody. That will be the new normal.

 

Public and private schools just send a transcript with no further information. I can see having course descriptions ready in case they ask for it and I would provide that if asked. Public and private schools do have course descriptions that you can look up on the internet, so that isn't asking for any more information than everybody else has available. I just wouldn't provide it until asked for it because they don't just include it with their applications. The university has to either go seek it out for themselves or ask the school to provide the information.

One of DS's math providers does not give grades so I asked him what he would give DS if I wanted to put down grades in the transcript and he said "just give him an A for each course".

 

 

I wouldn't worry about this for the transcript so much, but I would encourage your son to bring it up in any college interviews he may have.  e.g. when asked about how it could ever be possible to homeschool upper-level math, he could say "I was lucky to have a wonderful one-on-one instructor with whom I could focus on working out proofs.  My favorite proof was this-one, because it seemed difficult to proof, but I worked hard, and thought about it a lot, and used so-and-so methods."

[regentrude]

I never needed anything like that kind of detail. None of the colleges my kids applied to were even interested in course descriptions or booklists.

I  never had a single college request more information.

...

I actually think that providing far more information than they have actually asked for sets up a bad precedent because then they will come to expect it from everybody. That will be the new normal.

 

 

Some other posters here have reported that college admissions officials appreciated having more information from a homeschool. I cannot recall who shared this, but one school said that not having more info from homeschoolers was one of the reasons they did not admit many of those.

 

When it comes to a school with a high acceptance rate, I agree that it may not be necessary. For a student interested in a highly selective school, providing this information can likely make the difference.

[snowbeltmom]

I never needed anything like that kind of detail. None of the colleges my kids applied to were even interested in course descriptions or booklists.

 

 

Just another experience that is opposite to AngieW's experience: All the schools my kids have applied to wanted course descriptions and book lists.

 

Imo, I don't think adcoms pay that much attention to the grades we assign on the transcript - I think the standardized test scores - SAT/ACT, SAT II's, APs, DE grades, etc. carry much more weight than the letter grades.

 

Quark, I would list the grades and not worry about explaining how they were determined.  Fwiw, I had a blurb in my profile that stated the homeschooled courses were taught to mastery, but I didn't elaborate any further.  No one questioned this approach with my oldest or with my middle whose documentation was just officially approved by the admissions at the college he will attend next year.

 

[JanetC]

It's a course description, not a grade book. Topics covered, materials used, types of output required (particularly if something unusual was done - I didn't list stuff like working math problems in a math class). The final grade goes on the transcript.

 

I did not put any sort of percentage breakdowns anywhere.

[quark]

Thank you everyone!

 

Edited to say that after reading through responses carefully I have decided to leave percentages out and explain that math was proof-heavy and instructor X graded based on oral exam and proof of mastery.

 

You guys rock!

 

If I can tax your patience a little more, I am considering asking a question on a separate thread about our school profile/ counselor letter. Might do so later!

Edited July 13, 2016 by quark

[regentrude]

As long as some of the grades are substantiated by strong test scores, they will believe the other grades as well.

For a student whose ACT/SAT math score is in the top percentiles, colleges are not going to doubt the A in math on the transcript.

Ditto for English.

And I am fairly certain that a student who has strong test scores substantiating some of his subjects will not encounter extra scrutiny for the remaining subjects - it is a reasonable expectation that a student who manages to excel in several subjects will have been doing find also in the others.

 

He will also have CC grades, right? In that case, I would not worry.

But check that you fulfill the requirements for SAT subject tests; we encountered several colleges that wanted to see those.

 

ETA: I have not included grade break downs and percentages in any of my descriptions. The most I did was mention "Grade based on tests and labs" or something like that for home taught courses. Nothing for DE courses; they trust that a professional instructor can assign grades.

Edited July 13, 2016 by regentrude

[quark]

He will also have CC grades, right? In that case, I would not worry.

But check that you fulfill the requirements for SAT subject tests; we encountered several colleges that wanted to see those.

 

ETA: I have not included grade break downs and percentages in any of my descriptions. The most I did was mention "Grade based on tests and labs" or something like that for home taught courses. Nothing for DE courses; they trust that a professional instructor can assign grades.

 

Thank you regentrude! Yes, CC and UC grades.

 

He has his SAT and SAT Math 2. I am waiting impatiently for results for SAT Physics from the June 4 sitting. :glare:

Edited July 13, 2016 by quark

[regentrude]

 CC and UC grades 

 

He has his SAT and SAT Math 2...SAT Physics

 

FWIW, DD had SAT/ACT, subject tests in Math, Physics, Literature and German, college class grades in French, English and Physics.

No outside validation whatsoever for mommy grades in chemistry, biology, history or specific math/English courses. 

[quark]

 

IMHO, it is certainly a good idea to highlight the ability to write proofs.

There are a number of ways to do it.

 

For us, we put it in the counselor letter. You can describe it like this,

"When the student was taking the high school proof-based geometry, the instructor informed me that he had only given A+’s to two students in his ten years of teaching. Additionally, the student has a deep sense of aesthetics. More than once, the student has exclaimed about beautiful mathematical proofs, including some that the student discovered on his own."

 

The instructor writing your son's LOR might mention it.

In DC's case, one of the recommendations came from a college Math prof. I do not know what he wrote, but it probably contains something related to what they did in the class.

 

Also, if there is a specific project or math contest/talent search where proofs were written, you can either mention it, site the results (blog it and give the URL), or submit it as a supplement.

 

Incidentally, I really like (actually, I think it saved my life as the homeschool mom wearing the counselor hat) 

what one homeschool mom summed up about the difference between the school profile and the counselor letter. 

 

The school profile is about the homeschool whereas the counselor letter is about the student.

 

I did not submit the course descriptions.

 

HTH

 

ETA: Besides ECs, Chem, etc... DC also mentioned about Math in the essays. I only submitted 1 "consolidated" high school transcript. No outside providers' transcripts. The college transcripts were only sent after acceptance and to determine college credits earned. Also, after acceptance, in order to determine placement, certain profs also want to see the course descriptions for the college classes taken to decide whether to grant the credits or not.

 

 

Very, very helpful, thank you! Bolded is SO DS too! :001_wub:

 

I wouldn't worry about this for the transcript so much, but I would encourage your son to bring it up in any college interviews he may have.  e.g. when asked about how it could ever be possible to homeschool upper-level math, he could say "I was lucky to have a wonderful one-on-one instructor with whom I could focus on working out proofs.  My favorite proof was this-one, because it seemed difficult to proof, but I worked hard, and thought about it a lot, and used so-and-so methods."

 

This is so helpful, thank you! I hope he remembers to do so. The boy never mentions to others the things he's done. Maybe I can put a post it in his wallet reminding him to mention this if it comes up. :mellow:

 

Quark, I would list the grades and not worry about explaining how they were determined.  Fwiw, I had a blurb in my profile that stated the homeschooled courses were taught to mastery, but I didn't elaborate any further.  No one questioned this approach with my oldest or with my middle whose documentation was just officially approved by the admissions at the college he will attend next year.

 

Thank you snowbeltmom...bolded done! :laugh:

[JoanHomeEd]

Just another experience that is opposite to AngieW's experience: All the schools my kids have applied to wanted course descriptions and book lists.

 

This is mysterious... yours and mine both applied and were accepted to MIT (different years), I don't remember MIT ever "wanted course descriptions and book lists."

 

If they WANTED, I would have submitted! 

 

LOL!!! Am I having amnesia or something???

[quark]

This is mysterious... yours and mine both applied and were accepted to MIT (different years), I don't remember MIT ever "wanted course descriptions and book lists."

 

If they WANTED, I would have submitted! 

 

LOL!!! Am I having amnesia or something???

 

Not snowbeltmom but when I called, the adcom personnel I spoke to said (not exact words but close):

 

1. No need to submit counselor letter AND school profile...choose either one or the other because you are a homeschool with just one student and submitting both would be repetitive.
2. Any additional information on courses taken would be helpful.

[snowbeltmom]

This is mysterious... yours and mine both applied and were accepted to MIT (different years), I don't remember MIT ever "wanted course descriptions and book lists."

 

If they WANTED, I would have submitted! 

 

LOL!!! Am I having amnesia or something???

 

Yeah, I wondered the same thing when I read your post that maybe something had changed within a year. 

 

[JoanHomeEd]

OK, maybe different years, different ingredients  :) 

 

[EKS]

 

Not snowbeltmom but when I called, the adcom personnel I spoke to said (not exact words but close):

 

1. No need to submit counselor letter AND school profile...choose either one or the other because you are a homeschool with just one student and submitting both would be repetitive.
2. Any additional information on courses taken would be helpful.

 

 

It is only repetitive if you make it repetitive.  The counselor letter is about the student and the school profile is about your homeschool.  There actually should be very little crossover. 

 

I was careful to make sure that every document provided substantially new information--in fact the only reason I repeated information was if it was likely someone would need to go back and forth between documents.  So I had the credit amount for each class listed on both the transcript and the course descriptions, and I had the graduation requirements listed on the transcript (where someone might want to look at them in comparison to what was actually taken) and in the school profile where they were compared to the local high school's requirements.

[JoanHomeEd]

Wow, quark, on second thought... I would submit everything unless it is on their website. But I am super risk-averse   :lol:

 

ETA: And maybe take a screen shot as well?  :laugh:

 

ETA2: jk aside, what is on their website? Maybe you should clarify with the adcom personnel if they are conflicting. You don't want to submit everything in case this particular personnel is the one handling your paperwork (Afterall, she told you not to submit and you submit, she would be like ???). But if someone else think differently and handle your app....

Edited July 13, 2016 by JoanHomeEd

[regentrude]

It is only repetitive if you make it repetitive.  The counselor letter is about the student and the school profile is about your homeschool.  There actually should be very little crossover. 

 

I agree with this.

In my counselor letter, I described the person my student is. In the school profile, I described what education the student received and what reasons we had for the various choices we made.

Two completely different documents with different purposes and minimal overlap.

[quark]

Wow, quark, on second thought... I would submit everything unless it is on their website. But I am super risk-averse   :lol:

 

ETA: And maybe take a screen shot as well?  :laugh:

 

ETA2: jk aside, what is on their website? Maybe you should clarify with the adcom personnel if they are conflicting. You don't want to submit everything in case this particular personnel is the one handling your paperwork (Afterall, she told you not to submit and you submit, she would be like ???). But if someone else think differently and handle your app....

 

:scared: :scared: :scared:

 

Lol, no not freaking out exactly but curious now. :tongue_smilie: I think maybe I should do what Kai suggests. Just make sure nothing overlaps?

 

Screenshot of their requirements? They don't say all this on the website though. I think they only mention recommendations/ evaluations in detail over there (have to double check again).

[JoanHomeEd]

No worries/alarms. It will become clearer when the 2017 app systems become available in Aug. 

 

http://mitadmissions.org/apply/freshman/mymit

https://my.mit.edu/uaweb/login.htm

http://mitadmissions.org/apply/prepare/counselors

https://mit-recs.applywithus.com/apply/to/mit

[quark]

No worries/alarms. It will become clearer when the 2017 app systems become available in Aug. 

 

http://mitadmissions.org/apply/freshman/mymit

https://my.mit.edu/uaweb/login.htm

http://mitadmissions.org/apply/prepare/counselors

https://mit-recs.applywithus.com/apply/to/mit

 

Please don't take this as weird...I love you!!!! :001_wub: