college

[lewelma]

We are in NZ and are dual citizens with the USA. DS is a very talented student, and we are kicking around applying to top-tier universities in the USA or UK. I'm just not clear on how this might play out, and how to make sure he has everything completed given that he is not sure he wants to leave NZ so we don't want to totally change our life around to jump hoops.  He is only 15, so I want to give him time to mature before making a decision one way or the other.

 

NZ is an exam based university entrance system.  The only way ds could take a lot of these exams was for him to enter the correspondence school.  He and I still consider him homeschooled as he studies a lot of things that don’t gain him credit, like Mandarin and philosophy/current events. In NZ, you take 10th, 11th, and 12th grade exams but only 12th grade exams go towards university entrance, so ds is skipping the 10th and 11th grade exams and simply spreading out the 12th grade exams over 3 (or even 4 years).  

 

Academics: 

1) 12th grade exams in: Math, Physics, Chemistry, English, 1/2 Music, 1/2 Biology

2) He has self studied Mandarin as a half class since he was 10.  

3) He will self study 1 credit Modern History, 1 credit current events, ½ credit philosophy, ½ credit Economics.

4) He will also take 5 200 level university math classes (he placed out of 5 100 level courses at 15)

5) and complete a post secondary diploma through the Royal school in the UK for violin. (LRSM)

 

Extra curriculars include:

1) Music: String group and trio (4 years), City youth orchestra (2 years), + competitions in chamber music

2) PE: badminton and Martial arts (4 years), + competitions in badminton

3) Volunteer work: he will be joining the Mathematics student’s association in August, and plans to personally and solely run monthly seminars in Competition math in our city, especially in number theory and combinatorics.  He might also help make up the problems for the NZ math olympiad.  

4) Hook: Finally, as some of you know, he will be attending (and hopefully eventually metalling in) the IMO for 3 years starting at the age of 15.

 

++++++

 

Ok, so here is where I get confused.  He is spreading out the 12th grade exams.  Each course has 5-7 units, and he is taking them over multiple years.  So for example:

 

Physics 9th grade: mechanics and electromagnetism, 10th grade modern phyics and wave, 11th grade experiment and socioscientific research paper.  

 

For English, he did 11th grade exams in 9th and 10th grade, and will do 12th grade exams in 10th and 11th grade.  

 

For Biology, he will do the 11th grade experiments in 11th grade, and the 12th grade experiments in 12th grade, but will self study the rest of bio and not be officially assessed on it. So only 1/2 official credit for these classes.

 

Basically, my confusion comes from not taking 6 ‘full’ courses each year because he is doing half courses at a 12th grade level starting in 9th grade, etc. He has never taken 9th grade English or science, just jumped to the level that would give him real credit in the NZ system.

 

He actually will complete his high school diploma at the end of 11th grade, but not go to university because he wants to complete his post secondary diploma in music, and wants to compete again in the IMO.  Plus he will already be taking 200 level math courses at the university.  He will remain enrolled at the correspondence school to take the Biology experiment assessments and possibly Economics.  He will self study the rest of bio at home, and also continue with his mandarin.  He will also continue with the student association mathematics lectures and the trio, string group, and orchestra.  So I think it will still be a competitive 12th grade year even though he will take very few high school exams/assessments.  

 

Ok, so how do I actually organize this into a transcript?

 

Thanks for any help you can give me!

Edited July 16, 2016 by lewelma

[quark]

Ok, so how do I actually organize this into a transcript?

 

Thanks for any help you can give me!

 

I would recommend giving the schools a call. For e.g. when I called one top tier school recently, they were very willing to hear me out and provided very helpful homeschool-specific application advice. Similarly, I am very sure they can help you with how to set up the transcript.

 

ETA: What you are doing sounds similar to how some Asian countries run their school system. I am quite sure these schools would have experience with advanced international students from such countries!

 

Edited July 11, 2016 by quark

[regentrude]

I have followed your posts on the accelerated board and am quite confident that your DS is a strong candidate for a selective school (albeit, with their pickiness, that does not guarantee acceptance, sigh).

 

One thing that struck me right away is that you mention him getting a diploma after 11th grade. This could be a problem because, if he graduates from high school and then takes college classes, he would no longer be a freshman for the college application and might be considered a transfer student. This is something you should investigate and ask the colleges about.

 

You can organize your transcript by subject instead of by year if that is more advantageous.

I don't quite understand the issue. You don't have to have "six full courses" each year. Look at the admissions requirements and work backwards and see how you can package it. The highly selective schools want to see 4x5: 4 years each of English, social sciences, science, math, foreign language (required often 3, but suggested 4). However, with a student who has an extreme focus in one area, I could imagine that there is some wiggle room.

 

What official exams he takes may matter in NZ, but here in the US you can give a student homeschool credit for a subject in which he did not have any outside exams, so I don't see why it should be a problem for US colleges. Your transcript for college application might look different than whatever you need to submit to authorities in NZ.

 

If it is of any help, I'll be happy to share my transcript that organizes courses BOTH by year and by subject category. That might give you ideas.

 

ETA:

 

He has never taken 9th grade English or science,

But he did do some kind of English and science in 9th grade - so you list whatever that was for his 9th grade year. The level is irrelevant; seeing advanced coursework strengthens the transcript.

 

ETA: Looking through your list, the one subject that looks as if it could be of concern is English - which I don't understand because you wrote elsewhere that he reads copious amounts of difficult literature. That can be packaged in a credit, without having an external exam. He surely reads enough to have an English credit per year!

Edited July 11, 2016 by regentrude

[lewelma]

Quark, I'm actually surprised that universities would give detailed advice for prospective students.  I'm glad you brought it up, because I could definitely call, I just did not think they would want to talk to me.  The university here has been most uninterested.  I was told that "Discretionary entrance is *discretionary* so I cannot tell your son needs to do."  Not very helpful, and part of the reason we moved to the correspondence school.

 

Regentrude, DS will be eligible for the IMO in his 12th grade year even though he has his NCEA level 3 certificate from NZ. It has to do with how he is enrolled at the university here, and he will be attending under the personal interest clause and NOT enrolled in a degree program.  Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I thought that was the general rule or something.  DS could simply ask them not to give him the certificate, but once you have the credits, I think you just get it by the computer. DS will still be a full time student at the correspondence high school who have told me that it is not unusual for students to get their level 3 certificate (12th grade) and do an extra year so that they can take the scholarship exams.  So might not be the same.  I wonder how I can find that out, because it is a pretty specific question.

 

As for English, he will continue to read great literature in 12th grade, and could do some more assessments at the correspondence school for practice even if he does not need the credits.  I think you are saying that I just call it 

 

English 9

English 10

English 11 (with exam)

English 12 (with exam)

 

And ditch the when he did what.  However, he didn't actually do English 9 or 10, because he started English 11 in 9th grade, and did not actually write much writing the prior two years, just lots of deep reading.  He stretched out the 11th and 12th grade English assessments over 3 years.  The systems are just different which is why I'm a bit muddled. 

 

I'd love you to send me your two transcripts.  Might give me a feel for different ways to write it up.   In NZ you just list your exam marks, and that is it. You either have the entrance score or not.

Edited July 11, 2016 by lewelma

[lewelma]

Oh, wait a minute.  I just re-read what you wrote and I think you suggest:

 

English 9 (with 11th grade exam)

English 10 (with 11th and 12th grade exam)

English 11 (with 12th grade exam)

English 12 personal study

 

Something like that?

[regentrude]

 

Regentrude, DS will be eligible for the IMO in his 12th grade year even though he has his NCEA level 3 certificate from NZ. It has to do with how he is enrolled at the university here, and he will be attending under the personal interest clause and NOT enrolled in a degree program.  Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I thought that was the general rule or something.  DS could simply ask them not to give him the certificate, but once you have the credits, I think you just get it by the computer. DS will still be a full time student at the correspondence high school who have told me that it is not unusual for students to get their level 3 certificate (12th grade) and do an extra year so that they can take the scholarship exams.  So might not be the same.  I wonder how I can find that out, because it is a pretty specific question.

 

 

The bolded is the important thing. It means he is still enrolled in high school, which makes him a freshman the year after he graduates. He can take university courses while doing so without jeopardizing that status 0 he just cannot graduate form high school.

 

 

 

 

As for English, he will continue to read great literature in 12th grade, and could do some more assessments at the correspondence school for practice even if he does not need the credits.  I think you are saying that I just call it 

 

English 9

English 10

English 11 (with exam)

English 12 (with exam)

 

And ditch the when he did what.  However, he didn't actually do English 9 or 10, because he started English 11 in 9th grade, and did not actually write much writing the prior two years, just lots of deep reading.  He stretched out the 11th and 12th grade English assessments over 3 years.  The systems are just different which is why I'm a bit muddled.

 

I would not even give those subjects nondescript titles like this - but more descriptive titles that say something about the things he did. you can add course descriptions and elaborate. My kids don't have "English 9" and stuff like this on the transcript - they have courses like "World Literature:Ancients:, "Dystopian Literature", "Shakespeare". your DS did not do "English 9", but he did some sort of English in his 9th grade year - and that's the credit he gets.

My DD unschooled English one year and just read and discussed lit online; I gave her a credit and a grade for her SATII.

 

 

I'd love you to send me your two transcripts.  Might give me a feel for different ways to write it up.  

 

It is actually ONE transcript - that's the genius of the layout, for which I cannot take credit; one nice lady on a yahoo group had shared it, and I know it has been used by several posters on this board. I will pm you the transcript.

 

One more thing: several of the top schools require not just the SAT/ACT, but also several SAT2 subject tests. Is there any chance for him to take those? I would definitely email the schools and bring this up; they may have other ways for international students to satisfy their requirements.

Edited July 11, 2016 by regentrude

[quark]

Oh yes. I made sure I told them I was a homeschool guidance counselor. :D

 

One way that I have seen parents present unique coursework is to not even bother with issuing credits but to simply list subjects down the left column and use the right columns for year coursework was taken (9th, 10th, 11th, 12th and if you like an 8th grade preceding the 9th column). Then they merely list the grade for each course in the year columns that follow. So if I went to the Science/ Physics on leftmost column, I would see (for example) an A in physics for 9th, 10th, 11th (and 12th would have an abbreviation for Planned or something similar). Then your course descriptions would explain what the As were for (mechanics and EM in 9th, modern and wave in 10th and so on). For these advanced students sometimes it is so obvious from the transcript and exam scores that they more than exceed minimum graduation credits.

[lewelma]

It gets even a bit more confusing if I write up all the years like the above.  For Physics a full class is 18 credits (each credit should take 10 hours), but there are 26 credits available in the curriculum, and ds will do them all over time.  So he is doing more than 1 class worth of 12th grade physics.  So: 

 

9th grade Physics (12th grade - 12 credits)

10th grade Physics (12th grade - 7 credits)

11th grade Physics (12th grade -  7 credits)

 

Kind of a mess to list on a transcript if I say when he took what. 

[lewelma]

He has the grades for sure.  Only 10% of any assessment gets an Excellence mark, and ds has only Excellences.  I think he can get a national class rank to the percentile but no higher.  So top 1%.  It is a national system where even the internal assessments are moderated nationally. 

[regentrude]

It gets even a bit more confusing if I write up all the years like the above.  For Physics a full class is 18 credits (each credit should take 10 hours), but there are 26 credits available in the curriculum, and ds will do them all over time.  So he is doing more than 1 class worth of 12th grade physics.  So: 

 

9th grade Physics (12th grade - 12 credits)

10th grade Physics (12th grade - 7 credits)

11th grade Physics (12th grade -  7 credits)

 

Kind of a mess to list on a transcript if I say when he took what. 

 

You would not list it like this. You'd list:

 

9th grade: Physics. (mechanics and electromagnetism goes into course description), 1.5 credits (if it is more than the regular load)

10th grade: Modern physics and waves, 1 credit

11th grade: Experimental Physics (and socioscientific research paper - is that a separate credit? Or does it go in the course description?)  

 

 

Edited July 11, 2016 by regentrude

[quark]

That's why I am recommending not mentioning credits in the transcript. Instead, prepare a "school profile" to explain how the credit system works.

[lewelma]

 

 

One more thing: several of the top schools require not just the SAT/ACT, but also several SAT2 subject tests. Is there any chance for him to take those? I would definitely email the schools and bring this up; they may have other ways for international students to satisfy their requirements.

 

This *is* actually THE problem.  Yes, he can.  They are offered here.  But the SAT has migrated towards being way more USA focused.  I looked at the reading selections and they are American centric, which will put my ds at a severe disadvantage.  In addition, he has never done writing under time pressure.  All his English Internal Assessments have been papers.  So if he has to take the writing portion of the SAT, we will need to do some serious prep as in a years worth, I think.  Finally, the SAT2 tests are going to be a pain, because he has stretched out the material over multiple years, so will have to go back and relearn it.  I'm guessing math won't be a problem, and then I guess he just picks physics because it has the most standardized high school curriculum internationally of any subject I would assume. These tests are why I thought I better ask now.  Ug.  

[regentrude]

That's why I am recommending not mentioning credits in the transcript. Instead, prepare a "school profile" to explain how the credit system works.

 

I would actually create a transcript that translates the NZ credits into US credits so that admissions officials who have no clue about the NZ system can easily see what is what.

in the US, a standard course (1 hour per day fro a school year or content of standard textbook) is counted as 1 credit. That seems to correspond to your 7 NZ credits? I'd not confuse the poor admissions people.

So, I'd submit a transcript that looks as "normal" as possible.

[quark]

This *is* actually THE problem.  Yes, he can.  They are offered here.  But the SAT has migrated towards being way more USA focused.  I looked at the reading selections and they are American centric, which will put my ds at a severe disadvantage.  In addition, he has never done writing under time pressure.  All his English Internal Assessments have been papers.  So if he has to take the writing portion of the SAT, we will need to do some serious prep as in a years worth, I think.  Finally, the SAT2 tests are going to be a pain, because he has stretched out the material over multiple years, so will have to go back and relearn it.  I'm guessing math won't be a problem, and then I guess he just picks physics because it has the most standardized high school curriculum internationally of any subject I would assume. These tests are why I thought I better ask now.  Ug.  

 

I think you are overestimating the amount of time it would take *him* to prep.

Edited July 11, 2016 by quark

[lewelma]

You would not list it like this. You'd list:

 

9th grade: Physics. (mechanics and electromagnetism goes into course description), 1.5 credits (if it is more than the regular load)

10th grade: Modern physics and waves, 1 credit

11th grade: Experimental Physics (and socioscientific research paper - is that a separate credit? Or does it go in the course description?)  

 

Well, 18 credits is a standard class here (although they vary from 14-22).  So he has never taken a full physics class, but will have 1.5 credits worth of physics over 3 years.  So I could write what you have but then make each a 1/2 credit, which is a simplification, but might be necessary.  The experimental physics standard is worth 4 credits and the socioscientific paper is worth 3 credits.  I want him to write as much a possible, given that he is going to do all the English credits he wants from the English curriculum.  In NZ you can get *literacy* credits for university entrance from things like this physics paper, just not *English* credits. *Literacy* credits are required for university entrance, but *English* as a subject is not.  Does that make sense?  So I could pull all the science papers from Bio, Chem, and Physics and turn them into an English credit if I want.  Then make the sciences each a full 24 credit (240 hours) class. 

[Arcadia]

Quark, I'm actually surprised that universities would give detailed advice for prospective students. I'm glad you brought it up, because I could definitely call, I just did not think they would want to talk to me.

Did you call general admission or international relations? Your son would be under international student admission but not requiring a student visa.

 

I have a few dual citizenship friends whose kids are younger than yours. They still have homes in California but their kids who are born here are out of US for years and in the Cambridge GCE system. So they will follow international application policies. One of my friend is aiming for Stanford for her kids because in-laws are living nearby. Her child would need SAT or ACT with writing and the A level grades when the time comes.

 

From Stanford

"Non-U.S. Educational Systems

Official documents that note your grades, marks, or any predictions are required and must be sent directly from your school as part of your application. There is no need to have your marks converted into an American GPA." http://admission.stanford.edu/application/international/

[regentrude]

This *is* actually THE problem.  Yes, he can.  They are offered here.  But the SAT has migrated towards being way more USA focused.  I looked at the reading selections and they are American centric, which will put my ds at a severe disadvantage.  In addition, he has never done writing under time pressure.  All his English Internal Assessments have been papers.  So if he has to take the writing portion of the SAT, we will need to do some serious prep as in a years worth, I think.  Finally, the SAT2 tests are going to be a pain, because he has stretched out the material over multiple years, so will have to go back and relearn it.  I'm guessing math won't be a problem, and then I guess he just picks physics because it has the most standardized high school curriculum internationally of any subject I would assume. These tests are why I thought I better ask now.  Ug.  

 

I am not sure what you mean by the reading selections. This is reading comprehension, so how does it matter? The texts are from different periods and genres.

The writing portion of the SAT requires very formulaic writing; if he can write, that should not take a year to get him to write a 30 minute argumentative essay that follows the drilled pattern. 

 

The SAT2s, yes, with science it's a pain to relearn if the material is not fresh. My DD took Physics twice, once after a year's break from physics, and she retook it after taking physics at the university in 11th grade, which was much better. Physics is very standard stuff. A prep book is very helpful to get a flavor for the style of questions.

The Literature SAT2 is really easy; you don't have to know specific readings and authors, it is just reading comprehension and a little bit of literary devices. DD did one prep test and went in cold otherwise and aced it.

For foreign language, do they have Mandarin? If he has studied continuously, that should not be too bad. In the US, the language tests are offered only twice a year; once with listening and once without. I have not seen any indication that colleges prefer one over the other.

[lewelma]

I don't know Quark.  I am *very* concerned about the SAT and SAT2 tests.  I'm just not convinced he will shine.  He would have on the old SAT for sure. But I can take a closer look.  It just seems that so many people prep for so long, that ds would be at a disadvantage.  Plus, seriously, his understanding of American history and geography and social issues is not super great (although he does read the Economist), so the readings will be a bit odd to him from what I saw of the samples last year.

[regentrude]

Well, 18 credits is a standard class here (although they vary from 14-22).  So he has never taken a full physics class, but will have 1.5 credits worth of physics over 3 years.  So I could write what you have but then make each a 1/2 credit, which is a simplification, but might be necessary.  The experimental physics standard is worth 4 credits and the socioscientific paper is worth 3 credits.  I want him to write as much a possible, given that he is going to do all the English credits he wants from the English curriculum.  In NZ you can get *literacy* credits for university entrance from things like this physics paper, just not *English* credits. *Literacy* credits are required for university entrance, but *English* as a subject is not.  Does that make sense?  So I could pull all the science papers from Bio, Chem, and Physics and turn them into an English credit if I want.  Then make the sciences each a full 24 credit (240 hours) class. 

 

That would be "writing across the curriculum", grin. You can wrap this all into English, n problem. Or you can leave the papers in science - wherever you need the credits.

I have some subjects where the student has 0.5  or 0.25 cr over several years. When you look at the transcript I am going to send you, it will become clear how that can be formatted nicely.

[regentrude]

I don't know Quark.  I am *very* concerned about the SAT and SAT2 tests.  I'm just not convinced he will shine.  He would have on the old SAT for sure. But I can take a closer look.  It just seems that so many people prep for so long, that ds would be at a disadvantage.  Plus, seriously, his understanding of American history and geography and social issues is not super great (although he does read the Economist), so the readings will be a bit odd to him from what I saw of the samples last year.

 

He does not know any US history or geography to deal with the reading sections on the SAT.

What did he find odd?

 

My DD prepped for a few weeks prior to the test at home with a prep book. Not "very long". The long term prep is in thorough reading and math skills acquired over the last decade.

[lewelma]

Didn't think about the Literature SAT2.  Are these things multiple choice?  I'm telling you, he has NEVER written under time pressure anything in English.  Only maths, and he is doing it right now.  :huh:  

 

Mandarin is a no go.  He took a year off and has only restarted.  He is just kind of dabbling.  Probably only has 1.5 years of high school content under his belt. He is NOT confident, at all.  

 

As for physics, not the end of the world to relearn it.  If he wants to go into physics, he should have the basics down pat anyway.  Really, it is more just a pain, and may be enough of a hurdle for him not to want to apply.

[lewelma]

He does not know any US history or geography to deal with the reading sections on the SAT.

What did he find odd?

 

My DD prepped for a few weeks prior to the test at home with a prep book. Not "very long". The long term prep is in thorough reading and math skills acquired over the last decade.

 

He didn't look at it, I did.  There were just reading passages about MLK, and Florida's Everglades, and the Bill of Rights.  Sure he can read it, but he simply won't have the same background as kids from the USA, so his comprehension will definitely be less because it is not slotting into material he is familiar with.  Just a disadvantage, that's all.  It would be like an American kid reading passages on Maori protocol, or the nuclear free stance, or implications of dairying.  Super important here, but you just can't interpret well without some background. 

Edited July 11, 2016 by lewelma

[regentrude]

Didn't think about the Literature SAT2.  Are these things multiple choice?  I'm telling you, he has NEVER written under time pressure anything in English. 

 

yes, multiple choice. Easy.

 

Math has some problems that need to be calculated and input in a grid. That is something one needs to practice after reading the directions carefully ;)

 

He should have a look at the mandarin exam anyway. Multiple choice. No essay.

[lewelma]

Ah, multiple choice.  haha.  All the exams here are like the A levels in the UK.  They are ALL essay exams, even the math ones.  Pages and pages of writing for every exam. 

[regentrude]

He didn't look at it, I did.  There were just reading passages about MLK, and Florida's Everglades, and the Bill of Rights.  Sure he can read it, but he simply won't have the same background as kids from the USA, so his comprehension will definitely be less because it is not slotting into material he is familiar with.  Just a disadvantage, that's all.  It would be like an American kid reading passages on Maori protocol, or the nuclear free stance, or implications of dairying.  Super important here, but you just can't interpret well without some background. 

 

I have seen texts that were completely random and without any relationship to anything commonly known.

Is the history/geo context something new with the new SAT?

[lewelma]

I have seen texts that were completely random and without any relationship to anything commonly known.

Is the history/geo context something new with the new SAT?

 

Well, when I did the research on the new SAT about 1.5 years ago, this was definitely something that came up in the comparisons between old and new.  So I went to take a look, and definitely history/cultural passages play a bigger role than they did. Sounded like the SAT was moving more towards the ACT and having a larger *content* element, rather than just reading comprehension.  But if so, I guess that all international students would be at a disadvantage. 

[regentrude]

Well, when I did the research on the new SAT about 1.5 years ago, this was definitely something that came up in the comparisons between old and new.  So I went to take a look, and definitely history/cultural passages play a bigger role than they did. Sounded like the SAT was moving more towards the ACT and having a larger *content* element, rather than just reading comprehension.  But if so, I guess that all international students would be at a disadvantage. 

 

?? The ACT reading section is pure comprehension. There is no content element - even the science section is a reading comprehension section, no content knowledge necessary (but helpful)

Edited July 11, 2016 by regentrude

[quark]

Just get hold of the Official Guides from the College Board and have him go at them. I seriously don't think it will be a problem for him Ruth. How familiar was he with Russian history before reading Russian Lit? Didn't he have a blast philosophizing about the books? Just read up a little bit about US History if he is very concerned. Watch Crash Course videos on YouTube for example. There are so many immigrant kids here without the background who do well on these tests (and no, so many of us homeschoolers don't prep like crazy although it sounds like the well off public/ private school kids do). For a kid who reads as widely as he does I really don't think it will take him long to prep.

[lewelma]

Ok, I will look more closely at the tests, and see if it is worth the effort.  And I will try to sort his transcript out into the format of the file Regentrude just sent me.  I'll post it all tomorrow and see if you guys thinks it makes sense. 

[lewelma]

How many credits are AoPS classes worth? 1/2 or 1 depending on what? How do you count WOOT?

 

How do you separate out all the music he does?  How much is it worth?  music theory, personal lessons with NZ exams, Trio, string group, orchestra, 4 private concerts a year, plus post secondary diploma?  is this more than 1 credit per year?

 

Where do you put IMO?

 

How many math classes can you put pre-9th grade?

 

Do I put his PE as a credit or extra curricular?

 

What about all the mandarin he did before 9th grade? 

 

How do I lay out his 12th grade year with music.  Is that 2 credits for working at university level for a year?  Like the 2 math classes he will take?

[lewelma]

New problem.  How do I handle the 6month school-year shift?  DS would be 18 in very late August his senior year in NZ which ends in December.  So I'm guessing he would go half way through his senior year, if he were to go, as I don't think I can keep him busy any longer as he will already have finished his High school diploma at 17.5.

 

Do I just write it up in the NZ school year?  And then  Senior year is only a half year?  

 

 

[quark]

Just my non-expert 2 cents...

 

How many credits are AoPS classes worth? 1/2 or 1 depending on what? How do you count WOOT?

I would give 1 credit each (and maybe 0.5 for the Intro C&P/ NT if he took them)

 

How do you separate out all the music he does?  How much is it worth?  music theory, personal lessons with NZ exams, Trio, string group, orchestra, 4 private concerts a year, plus post secondary diploma?  is this more than 1 credit per year?

I put DS's music under Fine Arts and gave each 0.5 credits. I could have put them as extra curriculars but his were DE courses so I decided to list them as academic courses. But you could also decide later, as things start to take form. I remember veterans here clearly saying there is no transcript police so if you can clearly explain they are worth 1 credit I would just give them 1. Mine verye asily spent 1 credit's worth on a number of his music classes but that would also mess up my definition of 3 college hours = 1 high school credit as explained on my profile so I just chose to make things easy for the adcom by listing anything less than 3 college credit hours as 0.5 credits.

 

Where do you put IMO?

That would make one amazing extra curricular.

 

How many math classes can you put pre-9th grade?

Mine has 2 prior to 9th but I have also skipped him 3 years...as long as he has a clear progression from 9th on maybe it doesn't really matter? Basically I am listing everything from algebra 1 onwards.

 

Do I put his PE as a credit or extra curricular?

I have one as a credit (as per my graduation requirements). Another more involved PE is listed as EC.

 

What about all the mandarin he did before 9th grade? 

I'd list anything high school level there. Colleges are used to seeing HS level languages prior to 9th.

 

How do I lay out his 12th grade year with music.  Is that 2 credits for working at university level for a year?  Like the 2 math classes he will take?

Hopefully someone more experienced will answer this but for mine, I'm just listing it as 0.5 credit (even though he has community college level music theory and gigs/ public performances etc)

 

Edited July 11, 2016 by quark

[lewelma]

Ok, I have a problem with science. 

 

All of the science classes he is taking for real credit with the correspondence school are the second year of a subject.  Like in the UK, the AS levels and the A levels.  He is just learning the 11th grade coursework concurrently with the 12th grade course work, which is why the courses are taking him 2 years.  So he is actually taking

 

physics year 1

physics year 2

chem year 1

chem year 2

bio year 1

bio year 2

 

But then only taking the official assessments for year 2.  Plus he is doing the corresponding units in the same year.  So mechanics year 1 and year 2 in 9th grade, but modern physics year 1 and year 2 in 10th grade.  If I only put the courses down for one year, then it is misrepresenting the extra work he has to do to come up to speed with the year 1 material before launching into the year 2 material that he will be tested on. It just takes him less time because there is overlap in the curriculum, and he also doesn't forget stuff from year to year.

 

Suggestions?

Edited July 11, 2016 by lewelma

[lewelma]

Thanks for the suggestions, Quark.  So WOOT gets a full credit?  or is that extracurricular?  How do I document the 15 hours a week squad and team training he did from February through to July 1?  Hell of a lot of work on top of WOOT.  

 

DS did intro and intermediate number theory, does that get a full credit?  Same with Combinatorics. 

 

Also, I will definitely give ds a full credit each year for music, the question is, does he get more?  He will graduate with the equivalent of an AA in music, I think.  The LRSM is a two year post secondary diploma.  During his senior year, it will take up a huge amount of time to prepare for, which is why he will be short on a lot of other courses.  

 

I think senior year is looking like:

Music 2 credits (post secondary)

Math 2 credits (at university)

Biology

1/2  Econ

1/2 Mandarin

 

Edited July 11, 2016 by lewelma

[quark]

I don't know the answers Ruth but I will share that when I spoke to a college counselor I trust and respect she suggested pulling things over to the extra curricular side. This is another reason why  I suggested the no-credit method. I think some of our kids, just due to the sheer amount of academic and talent-based stuff they love to do, will rack up a lot of credits...just from doing the things they love. So when I made my initial transcript for all high school level and above courses it started totaling up to a ridiculous number of credits (40+ if you use the 1 credit = 1 year of high school system). In the end it really would have looked crazy for me to count everything. Yes I didn't want to shortchange him. But I also didn't want to end up with a ridiculous number of credits.

 

So over time and many iterations of the transcript later, I am starting to get the hang of what could be represented as ECs and what could be academic credit worthy (I mean a lot of them are academic credit worthy but I didn't want to go overboard...after 30+ credits I don't feel that adding 1 or 5 or 10 more is going to make him that much more competitive than he already is). So for example, one of DS's math activities, about 240 hours worth of college level math, and so beautiful as a credit on his transcript is now going to be an EC. I suspect your DS will have lots and lots more credits so maybe this is a chance to pull some over to ECs and really present him as the shining example of a math and music scholar he is.

 

Again, non-expert viewpoint. Just to tide you over until it's morning again here and more people comment. :laugh:

[regentrude]

How many credits are AoPS classes worth? 1/2 or 1 depending on what? How do you count WOOT?

 

How do you separate out all the music he does?  How much is it worth?  music theory, personal lessons with NZ exams, Trio, string group, orchestra, 4 private concerts a year, plus post secondary diploma?  is this more than 1 credit per year?

 

Where do you put IMO?

 

How many math classes can you put pre-9th grade?

 

Do I put his PE as a credit or extra curricular?

 

What about all the mandarin he did before 9th grade? 

 

How do I lay out his 12th grade year with music.  Is that 2 credits for working at university level for a year?  Like the 2 math classes he will take?

 

Math:

Math classes before 9th: I would list anything algebra 1 and up.

AoPS: I give half credit for C&P and NT; full credit for any of the other books (we did not do classes). I know people who gave more than one credit for intro to Algebra; I give one and call it algebra 1 even though DS took two years and even though it covers more than traditional alg 1 - mine have enough math. 

 

I would absolutely leave the IMO as extracurricular. He can elaborate in the application or his essay; I would not have it drown in a sea of math credits on the transcript.

 

PE:

I give some credit for PE every year, but leave organized activities as extracurriculars. (DD had PE for climbing/hiking; horseback riding was extracurricular. DS will leave his judo and TKD for extracurricular and count climbing+strength training/conditioning he does on the side as PE)

 

Music:

If he has two credits in music at the university, then he gets two credits in music on his transcript. For the other years, I would list classes for credit, but leave instrument lessons and ensembles as extracurricular.

Generally, any activity that is pursued with passion over several years can shine better as an extracurricular instead of being buried as a transcript credit

[regentrude]

New problem.  How do I handle the 6month school-year shift?  DS would be 18 in very late August his senior year in NZ which ends in December.  So I'm guessing he would go half way through his senior year, if he were to go, as I don't think I can keep him busy any longer as he will already have finished his High school diploma at 17.5.

 

Do I just write it up in the NZ school year?  And then  Senior year is only a half year?  

 

Wait, you want him to enter college in January?

I don't know whether that works. Standard for Freshmen is to start in the fall. I don't know whether top universities even admit students at half year (lower tier unis do, but i doubt schools that reject 90%  of regular applicants bother )

[regentrude]

Ok, I have a problem with science. 

 

All of the science classes he is taking for real credit with the correspondence school are the second year of a subject.  Like in the UK, the AS levels and the A levels.  He is just learning the 11th grade coursework concurrently with the 12th grade course work, which is why the courses are taking him 2 years.  So he is actually taking

 

physics year 1

physics year 2

chem year 1

chem year 2

bio year 1

bio year 2

 

But then only taking the official assessments for year 2.  Plus he is doing the corresponding units in the same year.  So mechanics year 1 and year 2 in 9th grade, but modern physics year 1 and year 2 in 10th grade.  If I only put the courses down for one year, then it is misrepresenting the extra work he has to do to come up to speed with the year 1 material before launching into the year 2 material that he will be tested on. It just takes him less time because there is overlap in the curriculum, and he also doesn't forget stuff from year to year.

 

If he self studies the material that would be taught in a one year high school course, he gets the credit, irrespective of whether there was an examination for that part.

So, if he covers the content of two years of physics in one year, he gets two credits.

Now, this assumes that what is planned for a year of the subject  is roughly equivalent to a US credit . I am saying this specifically because mechanics for example is not stretched out over two years, but considered a semester or at AP level maybe a one year HS course. Two years of mechanics would raise eye brows. Similar for Modern Physics - that is a one semester college=two semester high school course.

Can you clarify? How many hours would high school students in NZ spend on a subject?

In Germany, we have the system that all three sciences are taught concurrently throughout middle and high school, but that also means that students do not have one hour per subject per day, and the content of a year does not map onto US credits.

[Lanny]

My DD is somewhat "in the same boat" with your DS.  She is 15 now and has dual citizenship (U.S.A. and Colombia).  It is my belief that universities in the USA will be very interested in your DS, if you "package" him correctly and if he takes the SAT and/or ACT exams at the correct times.  My belief is that your DS will be welcomed, as a "Diversity" student and for the special things he brings to the table.  The universities in the USA usually have people who work with International Admissions and you can see what the requirements are, on those web pages and then contact them by phone (Skype or magicJack) or via email.  We have a magicJack with a phone number in the USA (VOIP) and I suggest that you consider getting one and a U.S. style phone, so you can call them and they can call you.   GL to him!   

Edited July 11, 2016 by Lanny

[JanetC]

Your job is not to make it look like a standard transcript. Your job is to make his educational background clear.

 

Start with:

 

1. What messages do you want to convey?

 

Strong in math, science, music. More than college-ready in all subjects. Etc.

What else?

 

2. What outside documents do you need to match-up with?

 

Make sure it is easy to correlate the outside transcripts and test results with your overall transcript. In my case, I have dual-enrollment classes where I use the CC's course numbering system rather than just the course names on the home-based classes. The course numbers and naming format makes it really easy to see how the different documents match up.)

 

If you are applying to a state school with strict admissions requirements, make sure it is easy to figure out if he has the required courses. If you are only applying to private schools, you need to show college-readiness, but you can assume that they won't be scouring the transcript checking off X years of history, Y years of foreign language, etc. They are more flexible.

 

"Packaging" (as in making a sales pitch for your kid to a college) doesn't really happen in the transcript, it happens more in the counselor letter and the student's own application and essays. Extra curricular activities can go on his application if they don't fit into his transcript. I have a hard time figuring out what is EC sometimes: I know that a lot of kids are getting science credit for doing their science fair work, but not all. I chose to give credit on my transcript so I could write a course description of her work. However, if the main results are medals, you don't necessarily need to write a course description or give credit for the preparation work. The results speak for themselves. (My DD's science fair projects win a bunch of the second-level awards, but so far not the category or overall medals. Also, she doesn't have the 7 or 8 credits a year that top kids seem to earn, because she takes her time to learn in depth what she does do.)

 

I would get the book Setting the Records Straight by Lee Binz: There are a lot of examples of possible transcript formats. Work backwards with the end in mind.

[JoanHomeEd]

I didn't read all the posts but I suggest you short circuit this whole thing since he already has a huge bonus in his hand. 

IMO, he doesn't need to wait around for the Gold medal, he's good to go already! 

If he's keen on math competitions, there's still Putnam.

 

Just consider the admissions to a few specific colleges. E.g. take MIT

 

Preparing for MIT

http://mitadmissions.org/apply/prepare/highschool

They want to see:

1. 3 yrs total of Sc. - 1 Phy, 1 Chem, 1 Bio.. so just take the 12th grade exams for Physics, Chem, and Bio altogether in 1 yr. 

2. Math thru Calc - he's way beyond already, so just need Calc if he hasn't done that, which can be done in a couple of months via 

http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/mathematics/18-01-single-variable-calculus-fall-2006/ or other versions.

3. 2 yrs of foreign lang - Chinese since 10yo, IMO, he's done!

4. 4 yrs of English - 3 yrs of self-studies including Russian Lit, etc, etc... so just take the 12th grade exam in English.

5. 2 yrs of history and/or Social sc - QED!

 

On the transcript, everything by subject. Anything that's not examed out or no outside grade, put self-study and give a grade. 

You want a sample, PM me or anyone.

 

For EC, with IMO, he's done!

 

On SAT/ACT (is going to be OK for him)

http://mitadmissions.org/apply/freshman/tests

NOTE: MIT will not require either the ACT or SAT optional writing section 

Take the 2 subject SATs - Math 2 of course is going to be OK for him, Just take 1 more SAT Sc. 

 

2 LORs, any problem? 

 

Talk to Admissions.

 

ETA: For counselor recommendation letter & school profile (I didn't send the course descriptions), if I can do it, anyone can :)

 

Edited July 11, 2016 by JoanHomeEd

[quark]

New problem. How do I handle the 6month school-year shift? DS would be 18 in very late August his senior year in NZ which ends in December. So I'm guessing he would go half way through his senior year, if he were to go, as I don't think I can keep him busy any longer as he will already have finished his High school diploma at 17.5.

 

Do I just write it up in the NZ school year? And then Senior year is only a half year?

I think you mean he will start at admitted 4yr school in the August/Sept of his senior year right? So he will just submit applications the fall before that. The tail end (depending on college and early decision or regular etc. Oct/Nov/Dec) of his 11th grade. Or start (Jan) of 12th. Not sure if international students can apply ED/EA.

 

Then explain it in your school letter/profile/report.

Edited July 11, 2016 by quark

[daijobu]

Kiwis speak English don't they?  (jk, I know they do.)  He's an IMO qualifier.  He doesn't need a hugely strong English score on his SAT or ACT.  Just enough to prove that he can read and write reasonably well in English.  Top math students in the world don't need to also have stellar English scores, but they do need to be reasonably good.  This shouldn't be a problem for him.  It's okay to be pointy.  

[lewelma]

Wait, you want him to enter college in January?

I don't know whether that works. Standard for Freshmen is to start in the fall. I don't know whether top universities even admit students at half year (lower tier unis do, but i doubt schools that reject 90%  of regular applicants bother )

 

Well either he enters half way through his senior year at just barely 18 (having finished his high school diploma in december of 11th grade), or he would have to go 6 months after his senior year finishes.  We are keeping him in high school after he finishes the diploma for a number of reasons 1) youth and needing to live far away to go to university (even Auckland is far), 2) IMO 3rd chance, 3) Completing his post secondary diploma in music. 

 

So I assume I keep the NZ school year on his transcript, but then have him apply just after he finishes 11th grade in December.   But how do I indicate that he has finished high school requirements but then still in high school?  This is where the English is a problem.  He will not be taking English in 12th grade, because he would have finished 12th grade English in 11th grade.  See the problem?

[lewelma]

If he self studies the material that would be taught in a one year high school course, he gets the credit, irrespective of whether there was an examination for that part.

So, if he covers the content of two years of physics in one year, he gets two credits.

Now, this assumes that what is planned for a year of the subject  is roughly equivalent to a US credit . I am saying this specifically because mechanics for example is not stretched out over two years, but considered a semester or at AP level maybe a one year HS course. Two years of mechanics would raise eye brows. Similar for Modern Physics - that is a one semester college=two semester high school course.

Can you clarify? How many hours would high school students in NZ spend on a subject?

In Germany, we have the system that all three sciences are taught concurrently throughout middle and high school, but that also means that students do not have one hour per subject per day, and the content of a year does not map onto US credits.

 

NZ is like the UK.  You do integrated science through 10th grade and then do AS level Physics in 11th grade and A level Physics in 12th grade.  DS has just skipped (self taught) AS level physics and is only taking the A level Physics exams.  He will do this for Chem also, and for half of Biol.  I think it is like you would take Honors Physics in 9th and AP physics in 12th.  But I don't think I would say our 12th grade exams are at AP level, they are more like the A levels, so a step down from AP but still A levels take 2 years of full study.  He used your syllabus with Knights College Physics, and still had to do some serious prep for the 12th grade exams to earn an Excellence.  

[lewelma]

Ok, I'm still stumped.  How do I indicate that in 9th grade when he took Physics, Music and English exams/assessments they were for 12th, 11th, and 11th grade respectively.  And in 10th grade when he takes Physics, Chemistry, Music, and English exams/assessments that they are all 12th grade exams. This is a nationally moderated system, so the exams and assessments are like AP tests or the A levels, a standard national exam at a high level.  If I put down English in 10th grade with an A, it is NOT 10th grade English, it is like the A-levels -- designed for seniors. Same for all his subjects. 

 

Music.  How do I indicate that he took a 10th grade music theory exam in 7th grade? Is that just music theory done before high school?

 

How do I indicate where these grades are coming from?  

Homeschool

NZ national system

ABRSM

University

 

Do I put that he won the math award for then entire high school science fair 6-12th grade in 6th grade?  Or does that drop off the list?  He modelled the effect of weather on beach erosion by taking sand movement measurements on days with various wind speeds and directions.

Edited July 12, 2016 by lewelma

[regentrude]

 

 

Ok, I'm still stumped.  How do I indicate that in 9th grade when he took Physics, Music and English exams/assessments they were for 12th, 11th, and 11th grade respectively.  And in 10th grade when he takes Physics, Chemistry, Music, and English exams/assessments that they are all 12th grade exams. This is a nationally moderated system, so the exams and assessments are like AP tests or the A levels, a standard national exam at a high level.  If I put down English in 10th grade with an A, it is NOT 10th grade English, it is like the A-levels -- designed for seniors. Same for all his subjects. 

 

This is something you would explain in the school profile.

On the transcript, I would list the course title in the year it was taken. S for 9th grade I would list  "Physics" if that is a typical mechanics/e&m. Or of it is one part: "Physics I: mechanics" and then some other year "Physics 2: e&m".

 

That the exams are whatever grade level is something the transcript cannot reflect; that is why you need to write a school profile.

 

Music: "Music Theory" (before 9th grade). I list all the before 9th grades in Italic, as you have seen on my transcript.

 

Where grades are coming from: if it is a university course, the uni will send a separate transcript. I use bold font to indicate uni classes and list the college in parentheses. For everything else, I would list the grade on the transcript and describe the origin of the grade in the course descriptions.

I can mail you my course description document if you think that would be helpful.

 

I would leave off the 6th grade science fair award. Colleges do not give bonus points for being a prodigy. He has plenty of more current outside validation.

Not everything a student did has to end up on the transcript.

Edited July 12, 2016 by regentrude

[regentrude]

Well either he enters half way through his senior year at just barely 18 (having finished his high school diploma in december of 11th grade), or he would have to go 6 months after his senior year finishes.  We are keeping him in high school after he finishes the diploma for a number of reasons 1) youth and needing to live far away to go to university (even Auckland is far), 2) IMO 3rd chance, 3) Completing his post secondary diploma in music. 

 

So I assume I keep the NZ school year on his transcript, but then have him apply just after he finishes 11th grade in December.   But how do I indicate that he has finished high school requirements but then still in high school?  This is where the English is a problem.  He will not be taking English in 12th grade, because he would have finished 12th grade English in 11th grade.  See the problem?

 

I don't think the college cares what the NZ high school requirements are. 

They see the courses on his transcript and see whether this is what they like. 

As long as he has four English credits, I don't think it matters when he took them. I would make sure there will be four credits of some kind, so that the transcript does not get thrown out from a cursory check whether the minimum requirements are fulfilled.

If necessary, plan some English for that last semester; he can easily knock out an independent study. But i would not leave that box unchecked.

[lewelma]

Ok, here is a start. Please don't copy the entire thing, as I will come back and delete it later.  Regentrude, I did not find it easy to make your transcript design to then paste on this board.  So for now, I'm starting with this, so you guys can get a feel for things.  I definitely feel like I have mutated what he did into units for the USA system.  Feels a bit like lying or stretching the truth somehow. 

 

As you suggested, prior to 9th grade is in italics

 

I still have not solved the science problem.  I can cut up physics a lot easier than cutting up Chem. 

 

I will need to do humanities and mandarin as P/F.  I simply cannot give grades for this.

Do I get a transcript from AoPS too?  So 5 transcripts?  ABRSM, Trinity College, NZ national system, Local University, AoPS?

 

Math

Algebra 1 1

Geometry 1

Algebra 2 1

Number Theory 1

Combinatorics 1

Olympiad Geometry  0.5

 

9th-12th grade

PreCalculus 1

Calculus 1 1

Calculus 2 1

Intro to Linear Algebra 1

MATH251 Linear Algebra 1

MATH245 Analysis

MATH232 Multivariate Calculus

MATH241 Number Theory

 

Science

Physics 1. 1credit

Physics 2 . 1credit

Chemistry 1. 1credit

Chemistry 2 . 1credit

Biology 1. 1credit

 

Music

Music Theory 0.5

Music Performance 1 (grade through both NZ national system and ABRSM) how do I deal with this?

Music Performance 1  (grade through both NZ national system and ABRSM)

Music Performance (Trinity College of London) 1

Music Performance (LRSM through ABRSM) 1

 

Foreign Language  

Mandarin 1.5

Mandarin 0.5  

Mandarin 0.5  

Mandarin 0.5  

 

English

World Literature with a focus on Russian 1  

Postmodern Literature 1  

Classic and Modern Science Fiction 1

Something for 12th grade

 

Humanities/Social Science

World Hisotry 1

Ancient Greece 0.5  

Current Events 1

Philosophy 0.5

Economics 0.5

 

 

Here is another take on the science.  Only physics can be easily broken up, chem and Bio are pretty goofy.  But the national assessments in NZ are very very specific.  So the Biology lab is on the rocky intertidal, so I can't really put that into Molecular Biology. The molecular bio he will self study as there are no 12th grade assessments for it.  So he will do the 3 bio assessments that are all 20 page research papers: based on experiment in rocky intertidal, writing on a sociobiology issue like genetic engineering, and finally evaluating 3 articles in the news for accuracy and bias. 

 

Physics: Mechanics and Electromagnetism

Physics: Wave and Modern Phyics

Physics: Experimental and Scientific Writing

Chemistry: Redox, Equilibrium, particles (with lab)

Organic Chemistry: including Scientific Writing (with lab)

Molecular Biology and Scientific Writing (with lab)

 

Edited July 12, 2016 by lewelma

[regentrude]

Looks fine to me.

I would be more specific about Physics 1 and 2 and Chemistry 1 and 2 to substantiate that it merits two credits each; so list more specific course titles.

I do not know whether AoPS sends transcript - ask.

I would give a grade for Mandarin; some colleges count P/F as Cs for their GPA (I did give P for electives, but not core academics). Did he have a tutor? let the tutor say he deserves As, done.

I would also give grades for humanities. If the student worked to my satisfaction (whatever that is), I give an A. I do not give exams, but assign writing or oral presentations as output.

Commonly, only credit in math and foreign language is carried over from middle school; I'd feel iffy about carrying a middle school World History.

Edited July 12, 2016 by regentrude