Fourth grader still carrying incorrectly

[lovekids83]

Hi ladies,

Please forgive the writing issues, as I am writing this from a kindle.

I think I should give some background as it may give you all some indications of what may be going on. I am trying to decide whether to have her evaluated or if this is normal behavior for her age. My daughter is ten and going to move on to fifth grade this fall.

 

When she was four she was reading Bob books, counted to one hundred, and participated in Bible quizzing successfully. After she had her kindergarten shots she regressed majority in all academic areas; she began

having issues with memory and acted as if she couldn't read anymore. I couldn't get her to quote John 3:16 for months of practicing at age five and started to work on letter sounds all over again. It took her another whole year to read Bob books. She mixed up similar letters for another year and had trouble learning new phenomes, so we took it slow. I should state she worked hard and is a very sweet and compliant child. At the end of third grade she could finally read well enough for Dr.Seuss books. She spent the second semester of fourth grade doing CLE reading 4, and she did very well. It seems like she never had issues with reading now; I am so proud of her hard work. She can now memorize verses as a family, so that issue has resolved itself as well😊

 

The issue we are still having is confusing to me. She completed CLE math 1 perfectly in k so I thought her real issues were reading correlated; but as she has progressed in math she continues to write numbers backward when

regrouping in addition or multiplication. She easily learned all of her math facts, has no issues comparing numbers, and as long as there isn't any regrouping gets addition and multiplication correct. She has had issues following how to do long division- she will skip steps and when carrying she will carry the one and write the tens almost every time. I have taught her how at least a hundred times, I even showed her how to write the number above her problem so she can check her work, but it hasn't helped. She used Rod and Staff math 2-4 and once problems are marked wrong she will find her mistake. She says she has checked the problems twice, but never sees her mistakes. What do you ladies think is going on? Thanks for reading this long post😊

[maize]

Have you worked regrouping problems with manipulatives? I'd try using base ten blocks and practicing just a few problems every day to solidify place value and the conceptual meaning of regrouping.

[maize]

You can work out division problems with base ten blocks as well.

[maize]

You could also have her practice with assigned problems in the prodigy math game. It makes practice more fun.

 

Sorry for the serial posting, I post one thing then think of something else!

[maize]

"Carrying" is out of favor as a conceptually confusing term in math education circles. Composing and decomposing tens is favored, but I mostly use the words "making tens" or "grouping/regrouping tens" and "breaking up tens" (or hundreds etc.) with my kids.

[lovekids83]

Thank you ladies for your quick replies.

We have used blocks and many other manipulative and she understands concepts well as we have supplemented Rod and Staff with Singapore textbooks and tons of hands on activities. Math is actually my strength and I love teaching it. What is confusing my is why after all of this tutoring she is carrying the wrong number- such as carrying the three when her first partial answer is thirteen not thirty-one. Sorry for not making my question very clear, and thank you for helpful replies.

[Farrar]

Yes, I second to try and retrain yourself to stop saying "carrying" because it makes it sound like a trick you're doing or like a mystery. "You just carry the one over here," isn't a very good explanation. "Regrouping" is a better term because the meaning of what you're doing is explained in the term.

 

I also second manipulatives. C-rods are good. If you go to the Education Unboxed page there are a lot of good videos on how to do this.

[lovekids83]

I also should note that she does this while tutoring as well. She will even tell me correctly, yet write the numbers backwards.

She would have perfect scores in math if she didn't mentally switch numbers.

[Farrar]

Okay, we simulposted... in regards to the why... it sounds like she doesn't understand place value. It could be that she's just cognitively moving a little slower. Most kids can get it by age 9, but a few aren't really ready. It could be a learning disability of some kind. If you feel she understands the concepts but she's making mistakes all the time, it could be a vision issue (getting the numbers to line up), it could be an attention issue (losing track of her thinking from the time she starts the problem to when she finishes), it could be an executive functioning issue (staying on task to finish). Using grid paper might help.

 

Regardless, I really think taking it back to making her use the manipulatives every time would help. An abacus or a set of C-rods, preferably. 

[lovekids83]

We have used both terms carrying and regrouping, and she really does understand the why behind the process, yet will write the answer backwards.

What I am wondering is why she switches numbers despite telling me the correct answer. This is irritating her a lot as she doesn't know why she doesn't see herself doing it until later.

[HomeAgain]

We use color coded graph paper to help.  I did it up in Excel, 3 problems across a page.  When I start teaching regrouping the child puts moves the colored manipulatives AND writes the number in the same colored column on the paper.  We also break problems down to show the numbers better (ex. 16 is written as 10 with a 6 below it in the units spot).  When numbers are carried, we write the entire number out on the graph paper at the top of the column - not carrying 2, we're carrying 200, writing it to add with our hundreds.

[lovekids83]

Thank you for your quick replies, we have been writing at the same time😉 I have wondered if she has a mild disability, but with her hard work and patience I have wondered if it would be worthwhile to have her evaluated as she has grown exponentially in her reading, writing, and spelling. We had her vision checked and she was fine, but it was only a basic exam; so she could switch things visually and I will have that immediately looked into as they may be able to give exercises to try.

[lovekids83]

I love that idea of writing the number in expanded form, as it would reinforce the place value and would separate the two numbers so switching should be much less likely. I will try this tomorrow with her and let you know how it goes. Thanks so much ladies for your help.

[OneStepAtATime]

I would suggest getting a vision screening through a COVD.  A developmental optometrist (see link below for list of possible eye docs in your area) can screen for possible convergence insufficiency, ocular motor issues, etc.  She might have perfect visual acuity but still have developmental vision issues that could cause quirkiness with her learning.  Those usually do not show up in a standard eye screening and are frequently missed.

 

http://www.covd.org/

 

Also, if you wanted to get an evaluation that is more broad ranging you might look into an evaluation through a neuropsychologist.  They should be able to test for a variety of issues as well as determine strengths that might not even be getting tapped into.  Sometimes insurance will cover at least part of that.

 

FWIW, getting testing done now might be ideal.  She is old enough that you have a track record of what she has been able to do and not do and yet is still young enough that if she needs remediation it could help significantly.  She is also not yet dealing with pre-teen hormones (which can turn the most compliant child into someone very resistant to....anything  :) ).

[busymama7]

You may have covered this but is it because she is writing the ones place first and then then tens? Since when you write 31 you write the 3 and then the one but when adding it's usually the one and then the 3 up top. Maybe it would help her to either be taught to write the 3 first up top and then the one so she's writing left to right with the numbers as usual. Also, MUS teaches the kids to do all the writing below the line and add after to avoid this. Maybe you just teach her to do it that way instead.

 

So it looks like this:

 

24

+39

____

13

5

_____

63

 

He does the same thing with multiplication which I think is even more helpful as you're not having to cross out the re grouped numbers before moving on to the next place.

 

ETA sorry for not lined up spacing. I tried

Edited July 4, 2016 by busymama7

[Noreen Claire]

As a math teacher who has seen this in a few high-school level kids (for various reasons), my thought is to practice having her say what she's doing out loud as she writes it, and to write it the way she says it.

 

If the problem is 3 x 18, instead of saying, "3 x 8 is 24, write the four and carry/regroup the two", I would say "3 x 8 is 24, write the two in the tens place, then the four in the ones place". It seems like a lot but, the more she does it, the less she'll hopefully need to say it out loud, internalizing it and hopefully having it become automatic.

 

Also, one kid just needed to work on graph paper. Totally solved his issue. Weird, I know, but that was all he needed. Good luck!

[mommymonster]

Completely agree with OneStep. My son couldn't "carry"/regroup until we worked through visual processing issues. And got a proper prescription for glasses -- his first prescription was improperly filled and gave him crazy headaches. He is dysgraphic as well and still struggles with number formation.

[lovekids83]

Thank you ladies😉 I am definitely going to have her vision properly checked and will also have her use the terms properly orally and get her graph paper. If this doesn't help, of which I am very hopeful, I will also have her evaluated. I should mention that I have odd eye issues, like only one of my eyes focus at a time, they do not work together.