Michael Clay Thompson vocabulary and Spanish

[momma2three]

I've always heard good things about the Michael Clay Thompson books, and I was reading the samples online, and I'm kind of put off by the constant discussion of how close English is to Spanish.

 

I notice MCT is very careful not to outright say that English is directly descended from Latin through Spanish, but the constant discussion of the relationship between the two languages, and no other explanation for how all those Latin words got to our Germanic language, seems to leave the impression that Spanish was the direct influence on English?

 

I assume that MCT knows more about the history of the English language than this, and has chosen to only talk about Spanish because there is some assumption that kids these days take Spanish in school, and will have an arsenal of Spanish vocabulary words at their disposal?  That seems like a pretty heavy assumption, and certainly not one to built a language arts program on. 

 

These books aren't cheap (or, at least, they add up), and I'm wondering what the hive's take is on this?  Does the whole series keep bringing up Spanish?  Is it confusing?  I guess I just don't see the point of harping on Spanish without even mentioning French (or without language like "if you know any Spanish, you might notice the similarities.  We talk about Spanish a lot in this book because it's the second most spoken language in the US, and the most common second language for kids to learn in school, but really English's Latin influences come from the French"), and it makes me think poorly of the whole series.

[ikslo]

I don't think he is saying that English is descended from Latin through Spanish at all.  I think he is saying that Spanish, too, draws on Latin roots. 

 

(I also think a lot of students in B&M schools do take Spanish these days.)

[Guest]

I dont understand the problem. He does not say English is from Spanish.

 

And English snd Spanish DO share a sizable number of latin roots words.

 

Its not a history of english linguistics book.

[Jackie]

I also don't understand the problem. The comparisons are straightforward and show that more than English descended from Latin.

[momma2three]

I guess I just find it odd that comparisons to Spanish seem to be a big part of the program, throughout all the levels, and I was trying to confirm whether that's true, or just what happens to appear in the online samples?  It appears in most of the samples I looked at.  It seems to assume the kids have some familiarity with Spanish, and it just seems to me that if it's mentioned throughout each book, at each level, kids are going to draw inferences that aren't actually there.  

 

I think the samples are at the beginning of each book, so there doesn't seem to be a sentence saying why he's comparing it to Spanish.  There's just a sentence saying that Spanish and English are related, and then a bunch of examples.  Without any mention of other languages English is similarly related to, or that it's more closely related to French, or why he's making the comparison except that English and Spanish are related.  

 

I really dislike needless simplification in kids instruction, and this totally qualifies to me.  Yes, some things need to be simplified... too violent or complicated or sexy for little kids, or whatever.  But I can't see the point of wiping French out of the equation entirely, when that's where English actually gets its Latin roots, and it would only take a paragraph to explain.  Especially since the only justification I can think of is that kids will recognize the Spanish words?  Otherwise, why wouldn't he go for French, which I agree that the kids are less likely to know, but is historically and linguistically a more appropriate example... or do what most books do and show some combination of Spanish, French, Portuguese, and Italian, all containing the same root?  Which is much more interesting, and does a better job showing how languages change and are related, imo. 

 

I know the MCT writing style is known for being spare, but it's making me distrustful of the whole series, tbh.  There's a fine line between leaving out extraneous information, and misleading through omission (whether the misleading is purposeful or not... and I don't think it is here, I just think it's either lazy, or based on conceptions about the Spanish ability of 3rd graders that isn't true in my experience).  And no, it's not a history of linguistics book, but it's obviously trying to show that languages have some relationship, and how can you do that without discussing the history?  A paragraph about the history of English and why he's comparing it to Spanish is probably the difference between me purchasing the book, or not.  

 

I know other people love them, but different strokes and all that.  I'm just disappointed, and was wondering if anyone else felt the same way. 

Edited June 30, 2016 by momma2three

[fralala]

Not sure which books in particular you're referring to as we're just working our way through the Island level, but this is what it says in our copy of Building Language:

 

"Latin...in the rock that many modern languages-- including English, Spanish, and others-- build on...There are lots and lots of Latin stems that we use to build words, both in English and in other modern languages, such as Spanish. By comparing the stems in words from Latin, English, and Spanish, we can see that the two modern languages are relatives, which have both descended from Latin, their common ancestral source."

 

That makes it pretty clear, in my opinion, that he's not subtly giving the impression that Latin words came to English through Spanish. With that said, I feel quite certain you have a valid criticism about MCT, which is that he puts Spanish and English side by side, and he may even give the impression that English is a Romance language, not with his reticence but with his passionate "rock that many modern languages are built on" speech and elaborate arch comparisons.

 

I like the discussion of Spanish personally, and find it very valuable-- we live among lots of Spanish-speakers-- but since my kids are studying French, I simply use it as an opportunity to ask them to come up with corresponding French words for each stem.

Edited June 30, 2016 by fralala

[SparklyUnicorn]

Ask him about it.  I heard his explanation, but that was years ago, and I just don't remember the details.

 

 

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Also, it's really a small part of the overall "program".  You could skip it without losing anything.  It's more like "hey notice this" rather than giving lots and lots of information or instruction on Spanish. 

[kbutton]

I think he's trying to show that academic English (not all English) has a lot in common with Spanish because Spanish also uses Latin roots.

 

I think the comparisons are intended to reinforce the Latin roots and are meant to be kind of fun. I used to love hear words compared across languages when I was learning vocabulary--it cemented the word better in my mind. 

 

Also, isn't his wife a native Spanish-speaker? 

[nansk]

If you want a light reading book that explains how English got words from Latin and Greek, look at Our Greek and Latin Roots. Perhaps if you read aloud with your students, it will give them a clearer picture than just MCT's Building Language will. 

[SanDiegoMom]

I think I remember that his wife was fluent in Spanish so maybe that has something so do with it. She cowrote some of the books. If she spoke French I suppose it would have been French instead.

[daijobu]

Spanish cognates appears in all his vocabulary books, including CE and WWW 1-3.  So you may want to skip MCT vocab if this bothers you.

 

I for one studied French in high school and have bitterly regretted it.  I had no idea there were so many Spanish speakers in this country.  

[domestic_engineer]

No, it doesn't bother me, but you are certainly entitled to your opinion!  No one will "cry foul" if you don't chose MCT for this reason!  :)
Just as in grammar, you see the *patterns* forming, likewise MCT introduced the *patterns* between English & Spanish.  I think my child enjoyed seeing the pattern & similarities between the two languages.  

 

I see it as a bonus, because if I had to put together my own LA program, I wouldn't even think to include a foreign language into the study!

 

But as PPs said, it's easy enough to skip over or bring French into the discussion.  And if you feel strongly about it, definitely contact MCT or RFWP and ask!

[Wolf Pack]

If you want a light reading book that explains how English got words from Latin and Greek, look at Our Greek and Latin Roots. Perhaps if you read aloud with your students, it will give them a clearer picture than just MCT's Building Language will.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the topic, but I just had to say that your avatar is the best. Hahaha. ^_^

 

FWIW, I haven't used the MCT vocab, but if my kids weren't familiar with Spanish, I'd find all of the comparisons kind of irritating if they were used too much throughout the book. I'd also find it more helpful to have a few other languages showing the same Latin root.

[momma2three]

FWIW, I haven't used the MCT vocab, but if my kids weren't familiar with Spanish, I'd find all of the comparisons kind of irritating if they were used too much throughout the book. I'd also find it more helpful to have a few other languages showing the same Latin root.

 

Thanks, and yeah, that's pretty much where I am.  I think showing a comparison is good, I think showing a comparison to a few languages, or at least an explanation about why Spanish was specifically chosen, would be better.  Most vocabulary books I've looked at seem to do that, this is the only one I've seen that only compares the words to Spanish.

[nansk]

I for one studied French in high school and have bitterly regretted it.  I had no idea there were so many Spanish speakers in this country.  

Interesting. :) Just last week, I read a post on the forum where the poster regretted taking Spanish in high school because she has never used it again. She said she should have taken French instead. :)

It was on a thread where the OP's dd wanted to learn French and was asking for opinions.