Jugglin'5 Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 How do you explain things in terms of discrimination? Is a person being irresponsible for being of a certain race, religion, national origin, gender, or sexual orientation? I know plenty of white heterosexuals that are on the dole. I went to school with many of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 I could not imagine seeing a homeless person on the street and saying to my daughter, "That person wouldn't be living on the streets if he had been more responsible." How do you explain things in terms of discrimination? Is a person being irresponsible for being of a certain race, religion, national origin, gender, or sexual orientation? What about people who get sick or whose parents get sick and are poor for that reason? How about people with mental illness, physical disabilities, or other special needs? What about adults who were victims of abuse or whose parents were substance abusers? How could that be "managed" better? quote] I don't think the OP of that comment meant that homeless people were a teaching point.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happygrrl Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 I would like to add a thought.... Those of you who, like me, have had to sit in the lobby of a public building while waiting to get your food stamp approval will know what I am talking about. It is a completely demoralizing experience to be in a position to receive government assistance. There is a great deal of shame involved... the prayers that your children won't remember the experience of having to sit still while mommy explains every dollar to a stranger.... the sinking feeling of stepping out of the office to run into a neighbor who's countenance changes when she realizes... the condescending stares of the people in the grocery line, as they quickly assess every grocery purchase to make sure you are spending 'their' money wisely... the times I would have done *almost* anything to provide my children with something normal so I could pretend we were like everyone else... the fears that there would possibly be no success for them in this life....I could go on. Thankfully we no longer need assistance. My husband's business is doing better (and btw we did not pay income taxes during that time, sure, but we did pay self employment taxes and social security taxes to the tune of thousands. Another thread, perhaps). I now have so much sympathy with anyone who dies not fit into the WASP structure... I had NO IDEA what it felt like to be outside the blessed majority. I am ultimately thankful for the experience for that reason. Anyway- all that to say most of us (thankfully) have no idea of the paralyzed mind that comes when you are in that position. While waiting for government to respond to our voices, let's simply smile at every person in the grocery line using food stamps. Let's *give* them bright spots by commenting about something nice. Maybe if we give *more* than money lives can be changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aubrey Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 It may be a fun trip' date=' but they will regret that money later, and it will be a bitter harvest for the child as an adult.[/quote'] I think *everyone* agrees w/ this part. Well...except for the "fun" part. I grew up poor, & my mom would sometimes do frivilous things for my bro & sis because she felt guilty that she had so little to give. I'd get a knot in my stomach when I balanced the checkbook for her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renee in NC Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 You know' date=' I didn't own a home until very recently, and I still don't have significant savings or investments. My DH has a 401K for the first time ever, and he got it in just the last couple of months. It doesn't have much in it yet. We have gone many times without the dentist or health insurance, and couldn't have gotten govt assistance even if we had wanted it, too much money for Medicaid, not enough to buy health insurance and go to the dentist and still eat. We have always lived on the edge until rather recently. My parents lost everything when I was in high school, and I watched my dad bust his butt to get back where he is today. He was delivering pizzas before anyone had heard of Dave Ramsey, often to the homes of former business partners. I'm not sure why everyone feels the need to preach to VaKim and me. I don't believe either of us is wealthy, and I have been far from comfortable for most of my life. This lady, (again taking the story at face value), is not doing her child any favors. It may be a fun trip, but they will regret that money later, and it will be a bitter harvest for the child as an adult.[/quote'] Other people have agreed with you and VAKim as well. I take issue with the whole idea of "stealing", but not your feelings about the issue. We all have strong opinions. I keep hearing from various people on various threads that you "have been there, but you didn't qualify for anything, etc." Trust me when I say that the lower your income, the worse it gets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Academy of Jedi Arts Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 I don't think the OP of that comment meant that homeless people were a teaching point.... OK change it to mom on food stamps then, since that is the subject at hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 We are seeing the fruit of a whole bunch of irresponsible people teaching their children to be irresponsible, who grow up and teach THEIR children the same. And then THOSE people are running the world. I am sure that a truly poor person who was starving would understand what a REAL need was. Those who are handed everything never will. As someone else said, they will never do any better. They will only pass it on. I'd like to see proof of these assertions, please. None, and I repeat, NONE of the people I know who have been on assistance are lazy, not working, on it for long periods of time or by any stretch "running the world". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Academy of Jedi Arts Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 I know plenty of white heterosexuals that are on the dole. I went to school with many of them. Yeah, so did I- boarding school- and the people "on the dole" are those who prey upon the poor to make themselves wealthier and wealthier. Just because someone is white and heterosexual doesn't mean there are not other factors in their life that one doesn't know or understand before passing judgment on their personal situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Academy of Jedi Arts Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 I would like to add a thought.... Those of you who, like me, have had to sit in the lobby of a public building while waiting to get your food stamp approval will know what I am talking about. It is a completely demoralizing experience to be in a position to receive government assistance. There is a great deal of shame involved... the prayers that your children won't remember the experience of having to sit still while mommy explains every dollar to a stranger.... the sinking feeling of stepping out of the office to run into a neighbor who's countenance changes when she realizes... the condescending stares of the people in the grocery line, as they quickly assess every grocery purchase to make sure you are spending 'their' money wisely... the times I would have done *almost* anything to provide my children with something normal so I could pretend we were like everyone else... the fears that there would possibly be no success for them in this life....I could go on. Thankfully we no longer need assistance. My husband's business is doing better (and btw we did not pay income taxes during that time, sure, but we did pay self employment taxes and social security taxes to the tune of thousands. Another thread, perhaps). I now have so much sympathy with anyone who dies not fit into the WASP structure... I had NO IDEA what it felt like to be outside the blessed majority. I am ultimately thankful for the experience for that reason. Anyway- all that to say most of us (thankfully) have no idea of the paralyzed mind that comes when you are in that position. While waiting for government to respond to our voices, let's simply smile at every person in the grocery line using food stamps. Let's *give* them bright spots by commenting about something nice. Maybe if we give *more* than money lives can be changed. :grouphug: This was a beautiful post. Thank you for such an inspiring message. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 OK change it to mom on food stamps then, since that is the subject at hand. Actually, I believe the OP was speaking to a lesson on needs vs. wants (no public ridicule of mom on food stamps involved) but I could be totally wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 This lady, (again taking the story at face value), is not doing her child any favors. It may be a fun trip, but they will regret that money later, and it will be a bitter harvest for the child as an adult. ?? There is no way you can accurately extrapolate this as a conclusion about this woman, her character, the effect of this (at this point hypothetical) vacaton. It's bizarre - the amount of assumption you are making about these people you know from 3 sentences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erica in PA Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 You know' date=' I didn't own a home until very recently, and I still don't have significant savings or investments. My DH has a 401K for the first time ever, and he got it in just the last couple of months. It doesn't have much in it yet. We have gone many times without the dentist or health insurance, and couldn't have gotten govt assistance even if we had wanted it, too much money for Medicaid, not enough to buy health insurance and go to the dentist and still eat. We have always lived on the edge until rather recently. My parents lost everything when I was in high school, and I watched my dad bust his butt to get back where he is today. He was delivering pizzas before anyone had heard of Dave Ramsey, often to the homes of former business partners. I'm not sure why everyone feels the need to preach to VaKim and me. I don't believe either of us is wealthy, and I have been far from comfortable for most of my life. This lady, (again taking the story at face value), is not doing her child any favors. It may be a fun trip, but they will regret that money later, and it will be a bitter harvest for the child as an adult.[/quote'] I think you're missing my point. My point wasn't that we are all wealthy, or even comfortable. My point was that this woman is going without many things that we *do* have (even if we think we don't have much.) Does anyone here make $400 per month?? If not, then we are not in the same situation as this woman. At an income of $400 per month, that is a *hard life*. They have nothing. I think it's silly to begrudge a person with that sort of life a one-time one trip. Erica Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Academy of Jedi Arts Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 Actually, I believe the OP was speaking to a lesson on needs vs. wants (no public ridicule of mom on food stamps involved) but I could be totally wrong. What I teach is that it is wrong to judge what is a need and want for other people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela H in Texas Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 None, and I repeat, NONE of the people I know who have been on assistance are lazy, not working, on it for long periods of time It is a MYTH too many people buy into. The majority of welfare recipients aren't lazy, unemployed or staying on welfare long term. You'd think intelligent people wouldn't make assumptions and judgments based on the tiny percentage that fit the myth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jugglin'5 Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 Yeah, so did I- boarding school- and the people "on the dole" are those who prey upon the poor to make themselves wealthier and wealthier. Just because someone is white and heterosexual doesn't mean there are not other factors in their life that one doesn't know or understand before passing judgment on their personal situation. That's right, personal choices never have anything to do with one's situation, and I don't know anything about those people's situations. Pardon me a big eyeroll here.:001_rolleyes: I didn't say bad things and exceptionally trying times didn't come to hardworking people. But there is a reason some people get out of or improve their circumstances eventually, and some stay there, and teach their children to stay there too. They used to be called the virtues of hard work and prudence. I realize that it is not PC to speak of those anymore, so I am done here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela H in Texas Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 I know plenty of white heterosexuals that are on the dole. Well, I don't know about their sex lives, but there are more whites on welfare than any other group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 What I teach is that it is wrong to judge what is a need and want for other people. OK, that's cool. How about not judging what others teach? Sorry, couldn't resist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jugglin'5 Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 It is a MYTH too many people buy into. The majority of welfare recipients aren't lazy, unemployed or staying on welfare long term. You'd think intelligent people wouldn't make assumptions and judgments based on the tiny percentage that fit the myth. I guess I just live in a different world than the rest of you. Where I live we have all three classes in close proximity to each other, and whites, blacks, and Hispanics in close proximity. Many, many young, able-bodied people with no jobs, and quite a few help-wanted signs up. It affects all the races. It is depressing. And it is real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Academy of Jedi Arts Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 They used to be called the virtues of hard work and prudence. Yes and it USED to be common that someone with no high school education USED to be able to work hard and be prudent enough to provide for basic needs and even a few extras. There USED to not be cars. There USED to be ways to not have electric bills, heating bills, most poor people got their water from a well. When my grandparents were alive, you could be poor but survive and be respectable. American culture has dictated this is no longer possible - and those big impacts that changed the American culture were overwhelmingly made by the HAVES, not the have nots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jugglin'5 Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 Well, I don't know about their sex lives, but there are more whites on welfare than any other group. I was just responding to another poster saying that I was somehow being discriminatory. There are definitely plenty of whites in my area on public assistance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renee in NC Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 I guess I just live in a different world than the rest of you. Where I live we have all three classes in close proximity to each other' date=' and whites, blacks, and Hispanics in close proximity. Many, many young, able-bodied people with no jobs, and quite a few help-wanted signs up. It affects all the races. It is depressing. And it is real.[/quote'] And those young, able bodied people are receiving welfare/food stamps/etc.? Does your state not require people to work unless they meet a few exemptions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela H in Texas Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 (edited) But there is a reason some people get out of or improve their circumstances eventually, and some stay there, and teach their children to stay there too. How many people do you think that stay there? Did you know that almost half are off within a year and 85% within 4years? The great majority of people get off welfare relatively quickly and their kids are seeing THAT. Well, if you didn't know, maybe you'll be glad to know that MOST people get out of those circumstances and very few stay there. ETA: And those that stay there more than likely have reasons that most reasonable people would okay too. Edited October 9, 2008 by 2J5M9K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Academy of Jedi Arts Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 OK, that's cool. How about not judging what others teach? Sorry, couldn't resist. Because if parents who have made it their sole responsibility to take on the education of our children are not teaching compassion and instead teaching ignorance, that is a serious issue. If my local schools were teaching this, I would take up issue with the state. I can only imagine if the majority of citizens thought this was a common way of thinking within the homeschool community, they might do the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Academy of Jedi Arts Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 . Many' date=' many young, able-bodied people with no jobs, and quite a few help-wanted signs up. It affects all the races. It is depressing. And it is real.[/quote'] Do you go do interviews of these people, look at their education records, have them examined by psychologists so you can review the findings, and do everything in your power to determine why these young, able-bodied people with no jobs are not working? I was just responding to another poster saying that I was somehow being discriminatory. There are definitely plenty of whites in my area on public assistance. There are many many other things to be discriminatory about than race. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrie12345 Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 I think you're missing my point. My point wasn't that we are all wealthy, or even comfortable. My point was that this woman is going without many things that we *do* have (even if we think we don't have much.) Does anyone here make $400 per month?? If not, then we are not in the same situation as this woman. At an income of $400 per month, that is a *hard life*. They have nothing. I think it's silly to begrudge a person with that sort of life a one-time one trip. Erica Again, I disagree. I've been a child whose family had many dinners courtesy of a food bank. I've been a single mother who has moved back to her parents' home, eventually losing her job. I've been a newlywed (sans formal wedding) with a combined household income that meant surfing the couch for milk money and walking back and forth to the grocery store. I don't begrudge a person who is living a hard life any basic needs. Basic needs that could be greatly eased for the price of a one-time trip. Now, I am truly happy to be able to aid people who need help. It's right, it's good, it's beneficial to all. But the purpose is to meet *needs*. The idea that there are some people accepting this aid to subsidize splurges that the people who provide the aid can't afford for their own families, yeah, it upsets me. A lot. I feel no guilt for begrudging someone a trip. How much does Disney cost? I'm assuming it would be somewhere around 6 months income for a person making $400/mo., give or take. If I were to go spend half of my yearly income right now, knowing I am neither rich nor poverty stricken, would anyone think I *hadn't* completely lost my mind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erica in PA Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 . The idea that there are some people accepting this aid to subsidize splurges that the people who provide the aid can't afford for their own families, yeah, it upsets me. A lot. I disagree with your assertion that this person is "accepting this aid to subsidize splurges." She would qualify for food stamps either way. She'd still only be making $400 per month-- it's not her Disney trip that is making her poor. She still could not afford to live without government assistance. Her family would still have nothing. Their daily life would still be very, very difficult. It sounds as though you just want her to give up the one bright spot she's trying to provide for her child. I am going to have to step out of this conversation because some of the comments made are really upsetting to me. I grew up very poor, and looking back, even though some of you wouldn't consider my mom's choices to be responsible, and in light of our poverty you would rather we'd had nothing fun or special at all, I love her so much for trying to give me what happiness she could. Erica Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 Because if parents who have made it their sole responsibility to take on the education of our children are not teaching compassion and instead teaching ignorance, that is a serious issue. If my local schools were teaching this, I would take up issue with the state. I can only imagine if the majority of citizens thought this was a common way of thinking within the homeschool community, they might do the same. Let's just leave it at you don't get what I'm saying as I feel you are twisting things simply to attack and I don't feel like playing. Have a great day - seriously! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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