Are APs always necessary/recommended?

[luckymom]

We are planning dd16's junior year and have been told that she SHOULD take at least two AP classes at our local high school for her transcript.  I am wondering if that is necessarily true - is it always better/required for a homeschooler to show AP on his/her transcripts?

 

She could do it.  But, it would take time away from other, more relevant, pursuits, which are actually truer to who she is as a student.  Without APs her high school transcript would include the following with outside evaluation from online courses, tutors, college courses:

 

4 years of English, Math, Science, HIstory

4 years of French

4 years of Spanish

2 years of German

1 year of Latin

4 years of multiple electives like Philosophy, Shakespeare, Pre-Law

3 SAT II subject tests

10 college courses (200+ level) completed (with a grade of A)

4 years of working a part-time job (at the same place)

4 years of musical instrument

4 years of film training, including submitting to independent film festivals

4 years of martial arts

 

She will take the SAT and the ACT.

 

Does she NEED AP too?  She would have to give up hours pursuing modern languages or her job if she does.  Could she just take more SAT Subject II tests?  It just seems like a poor use of her time to focus on proving herself through AP rather than studying material that matters to her. 

 

Her GPA is 3.8.  

 

Thanks.  

[KarenNC]

We're going to be using dual enrollment rather than APs. In our case, it's a choice between a classroom experience at the community college or online APs. At least one college has expressed a distinct preference for seeing classroom experience over AP for homeschoolers (the honors program at one of our state colleges) and another (very selective) said that the important thing is to explain why the student chose the path they did rather than a particular path. It's also a financial decision for us, as DE is free tuition (just pay books and fees) vs very expensive online AP courses plus books and test fees (I don't feel confident I could adequately prepare her for APs).

 

That said, it will depend on where she wants to apply. Does she have any ideas yet at all? If so, I'd have her check with their admissions office.

Edited June 4, 2016 by KarenNC

[OnMyOwn]

I'm interested in hearing what others have to say. It sounds like she's "proven" herself with the college courses she's taken. I've heard people say some colleges prefer AP courses over college classes at cc, but I don't know if it's a strong enough preference that it is worth taking AP classes in your dd's situation. It sounds like she's been busy!

[mumto2]

Would it be possibe for her to do an AP via her home coursework. Both of mine did the Calculus AB. Statistics and Computer Science are two other potentials for home study fairly easily.

[DebbS]

Outside evaluations whether that be CC courses or standardized tests(SAT I, SAT II, ACT, AP, CLEP)  are helpful on a home school transcript because if they confirm at least some of the grades, they give credibility to the entire transcript.

 

Between the two of my kids, one took a certified  'AP' course. But, they both took 4 AP tests. You don't have to take an 'AP' course to sit for the test. Just get a study guide or two for each test you plan to take and make sure that you've covered the content.  Also, find a test site early that will allow home schoolers in.  We had no trouble with our local public school, but apparently in some areas, home schoolers are looked down upon.

 

[JennW in SoCal]

Does she NEED an AP?  Goodness no.  You've listed SAT II exams and 10 college courses which is plenty of outside verification of mommy grades.

 

When college application season starts you should highlight all those relevant pursuits that make her who she is.  Colleges see so many cookie-cutter applicants that a bright and passionate applicant can really stand out.

 

And, for the record, neither of my kids took any APs. 

[regentrude]

No. They are not always necessary.

My DD was admitted to an extremely selective college (8% acceptance rate) without a single AP on her transcript. There are other ways to demonstrate academic strength - she had 32 college credits from a four year university during high school and four strong SAT2 subject tests. We opted for DE instead of AP for several reasons.

 

So, while APs are not necessary, you need to have some way of outside validation, like SAT2 tests or DE credits, if your student is interested in applying to a selective college. ( If the student is not interested in college or will attend a non-selective school, you don't need any of these.) But it looks like you've got these covered.

 

 

Edited June 4, 2016 by regentrude

[happypamama]

No. They are not always necessary.

My DD was admitted to an extremely selective college (8% acceptance rate) without a single AP on her transcript. There are other ways to demonstrate academic strength - she had 32 college credits from a four year university during high school and four strong SAT2 subject tests. We opted for DE instead of AP for several reasons.

 

So, while APs are not necessary, you need to have some way of outside validation, like SAT2 tests or DE credits, if your student is interested in applying to a selective college. ( If the student is not interested in college or will attend a non-selective school, you don't need any of these.) But it looks like you've got these covered.

Piggybacking on that -- are SAT2s considered "equal" in preference with DE and AP, or are they a distant second choice?  Not sure which route we will be going in the future. . . 

[Grantmom]

I think it all depends on the student and what APs they are thinking of taking.  For us, APs were a way for DS to take a really challenging course and learn a lot.  They didn't box us in at all, in fact, they were a great path to learning the subject in depth.  I don't think all of the APs are like that, but for us, having some AP classes has been a great experience.  I don't think they are necessary though, and I think with all of that DE with great grades like that are another way to show it.  We won't be taking a lot of APs, just ones in which it is a path for the student to learn more about a topic they are interested in.

 

 

[regentrude]

Piggybacking on that -- are SAT2s considered "equal" in preference with DE and AP, or are they a distant second choice?  Not sure which route we will be going in the future. . . 

 

no, in fact, some colleges specifically require several SAT2s and will not take DE or AP as a replacement.

Some of those requirements are "any" two SAT2s, some are speificially requiring math and a science, some require three different SAT2s. Some schools require those only from homeschoollers, but most of those who do want them from all applicants.

This is typically only for selective schools; the average state U does not usually have such requirements.

Edited June 4, 2016 by regentrude

[teachermom2834]

I would not pursue AP in this case. Your dd has more than covered her bases and should focus on what makes her an individual not what makes her look like everyone else!

[Grantmom]

I don't think SATIIs are the same as APs.  DS was just comparing the Chem SAT this morning to the AP, and it was just a completely different test.  The SATII was only an hour long (compared to the 3-hour AP exam) and just had more straightforward questions, and all multiple-choice.

[regentrude]

I don't think SATIIs are the same as APs.  DS was just comparing the Chem SAT this morning to the AP, and it was just a completely different test.  The SATII was only an hour long (compared to the 3-hour AP exam) and just had more straightforward questions, and all multiple-choice.

 

SATIIs test high school level knowledge.

AP tests test college level knowledge.

Not the same thing - but I don't think this is what the poster was asking. Both can serve as outside validation, but schools that specifically require SAT2s often do not take AP or DE as a substitute even though those would be at a higher level.

 

This is discussed frequently on this board; probably in some of the sticky threads.

Edited June 4, 2016 by regentrude

[TranquilMind]

We are planning dd16's junior year and have been told that she SHOULD take at least two AP classes at our local high school for her transcript.  I am wondering if that is necessarily true - is it always better/required for a homeschooler to show AP on his/her transcripts?

 

She could do it.  But, it would take time away from other, more relevant, pursuits, which are actually truer to who she is as a student.  Without APs her high school transcript would include the following with outside evaluation from online courses, tutors, college courses:

 

4 years of English, Math, Science, HIstory

4 years of French

4 years of Spanish

2 years of German

1 year of Latin

4 years of multiple electives like Philosophy, Shakespeare, Pre-Law

3 SAT II subject tests

10 college courses (200+ level) completed (with a grade of A)

4 years of working a part-time job (at the same place)

4 years of musical instrument

4 years of film training, including submitting to independent film festivals

4 years of martial arts

 

She will take the SAT and the ACT.

 

Does she NEED AP too?  She would have to give up hours pursuing modern languages or her job if she does.  Could she just take more SAT Subject II tests?  It just seems like a poor use of her time to focus on proving herself through AP rather than studying material that matters to her. 

 

Her GPA is 3.8.  

 

Thanks.  

 

If she is going to university here in the states, that is one thing.  If she wishes to apply overseas, AP's are very important. 

 

[luckymom]

Thanks all.  Your replies have helped me to understand this better.  Can anyone recommend an online AP option if dd decides to try for one?

 

I am curious - why would colleges hold APs in higher standing than DE if they both measure college-level knowledge.  It seems strange to me that actually doing college would not be enough to prove you can do college-level work.  

 

Dds DE courses are not at a CC but at state universities.  Does that make a difference?

 

 

 

 

[regentrude]

I am curious - why would colleges hold APs in higher standing than DE if they both measure college-level knowledge.  It seems strange to me that actually doing college would not be enough to prove you can do college-level work.  

 

APs are standardized; the college knows exactly what is covered and tested.

 

College courses vary tremendously; without seeing syllabus, textbook and - most importantly - the actual exams and grading rubrics, colleges have no idea whether the course is rigorous or ridiculously watered down, and what kinds of mastery was required to achieve a certain grade.

 

A college may go to the trouble of having somebody evaluate the syllabus of a course taken elsewhere to see whether it is credit worthy if an admitted students wants to bring in credit; they are not wasting resources on evaluating the college coursework of applicants.

 

Having the credit from a reputable institution certainly helps. And as I said, students can get admitted to the top schools without APs but with a strong DE record.

 

ETA: I do not know any online courses, but it is not necessary to take an AP course; students can self study and take the exam. The exam is the important thing, not having taken an AP course.

Edited June 5, 2016 by regentrude

[InParadisum]

The only reason I took AP literature in high school was because that was my academic focus. I took dual-credit English 101, 102, and educational theory. I could have taken AP Calculus and AP French, both offered at my school, but I wanted to use those class hours for job shadowing my literature teacher. I'm so glad I did because I learned a lot.

[happypamama]

SATIIs test high school level knowledge.

AP tests test college level knowledge.

Not the same thing - but I don't think this is what the poster was asking. Both can serve as outside validation, but schools that specifically require SAT2s often do not take AP or DE as a substitute even though those would be at a higher level.

 

This is discussed frequently on this board; probably in some of the sticky threads.

Yes.  I wanted to know if one vs. the other was preferred for outside validation.

[luckymom]

APs are standardized; the college knows exactly what is covered and tested.

 

College courses vary tremendously; without seeing syllabus, textbook and - most importantly - the actual exams and grading rubrics, colleges have no idea whether the course is rigorous or ridiculously watered down, and what kinds of mastery was required to achieve a certain grade.

 

A college may go to the trouble of having somebody evaluate the syllabus of a course taken elsewhere to see whether it is credit worthy if an admitted students wants to bring in credit; they are not wasting resources on evaluating the college coursework of applicants.

 

Having the credit from a reputable institution certainly helps. And as I said, students can get admitted to the top schools without APs but with a strong DE record.

 

ETA: I do not know any online courses, but it is not necessary to take an AP course; students can self study and take the exam. The exam is the important thing, not having taken an AP course.

 

 

Thank you for clarifying this.  

[luckymom]

So, which materials would you recommend to prepare for an AP course?

[daijobu]

So, which materials would you recommend to prepare for an AP course?

 

It depends on the course.  If you know which test she plans to take we can make recommendations, or you can check out the sticky threads.

 

ETA: I mean "pinned" threads.  

Edited June 5, 2016 by daijobu

[regentrude]

So, which materials would you recommend to prepare for an AP course?

 

Check out the information on teh College Board website; they have sample syllabi and recommended textbooks, and there are also targeted test prep books on the market.

[luckymom]

Off to check.  Thanks.

[Grantmom]

We had good experiences this year with PA Homeschoolers for AP classes.  There are a lot of reviews on this forum for various online classes, so you could do a search for the ones you might be interested in.  But it sounds like she has a lot of DE already.

[KarenNC]

A few questions:

1)  Does she already have an idea of where she wants to apply?  If so, check their admissions requirements, especially for homeschoolers. 

2)  Where did she do her college classes, a community college or a 4 year school? I have read that DE classes from 4 year schools are sometimes viewed differently (and sometimes more acceptable to other 4 year schools) than those from community colleges.

3)  If from a community college, does the community college have an articulation agreement with the 4 year schools where she wants to apply? That can make a difference because those courses are more of a known quantity to the 4 year schools.

 

For instance, in our case, the community college my daughter will be attending for dual enrollment has articulation agreements with all the schools where she currently wants to apply and the list of courses available will transfer directly as general education requirements for those 4 year schools. The vetting has already been done.

[AngieW in Texas]

Only one of my kids did an AP test and that was only because the other student who was studying physics with her wanted to take the AP test. They went in together for solidarity. She had no interest in taking the AP for herself.

 

Your dd will have plenty of dual credit and the colleges I talked with viewed that as much better than AP.

 

My kids all did dual credit and have the possibility of graduating early because of it. My 20yo actually graduated a full year early due to dual credit.