Assessments

[EmseB]

I have a DS who is bright, most schoolwork is pretty easy for him even though he is young for his grade level.

 

My question is: are there any good assessments/testing I could do at home to get a better idea of his abilities? I feel like the amount of work he does is appropriate, but I'm not sure if there are places we could have more challenging content.

 

Basically, I just want to know more about his abilities and strengths. I don't want to apply unnecessary pressure, but I also want to give appropriate challenges. I don't want to burn him out, but I don't want him bored, either. This probably makes little sense, but basically I'm just wondering what if any testing y'all used to find out your dc should be accelerated.

[regentrude]

Basically, I just want to know more about his abilities and strengths. I don't want to apply unnecessary pressure, but I also want to give appropriate challenges. I don't want to burn him out, but I don't want him bored, either. This probably makes little sense, but basically I'm just wondering what if any testing y'all used to find out your dc should be accelerated.

 

My kids were tested  when they were still in public school in 3rd grade, and that did not tell me anything that I did not already know from living with them for 8 years.

I don't understand the "should be accelerated" thing. My accelerated kids simply learned everything faster than average and ran with it; they accelerated themselves, it was not something I, or anybody else, did.

 

You work with him daily. You notice whether he grasps material and concepts or struggles. You notice when he has mastered a concept without the endless repetitions the curriculum has planned out - and move on to the next. Things like noticing a kid aces the spelling word list on the first practice run, so you know that it's not necessary to practice this further.

 

I am a bit at a loss what you expect of a test.

I can also tell you that knowing an IQ value is not of any value when it comes to schooling, as kids of identical IQ can vary tremendously in maturity, academic interest, stamina, character, and learning style.

[EmseB]

So, to use the spelling example, he never has difficulties with spelling tests. But, that doesn't translate to me giving him new words every day to test him. I don't accelerate him because...well, he likes to do the workbook pages for his spelling words, and I feel like he would easily get burnt out if I was just giving him test after test. So, if there were one assessment that said he could do 5th grade level work, I'd do that book instead of one that is too simplistic.

 

I'm sorry my post was unclear, I kind of don't know what I'm asking myself. I saw another post mention woodcock-johnson and I thought that might be something to try with him, but I don't know how I could access something like that as a homeschooler.

 

I guess I want to know what his abilities are. I do work with him every day, but that doesn't make me feel like I know what to do about his intelligence. I don't know what his capabilities in each area actually are. I'm reluctant to push and make him resent the work. To use the spelling example, do I ask him to do more work each week? Do I give him a book that's a higher grade level? How high? At what point do his academic abilities exceed his maturity level? Do I let him just enjoy that it comes easily to him? Do I drop it altogether because he "gets it"? I don't know.

Edited March 19, 2016 by JodiSue

[regentrude]

So, to use the spelling example, he never has difficulties with spelling tests. But, that doesn't translate to me giving him new words every day to test him. I don't accelerate him because...well, he likes to do the workbook pages for his spelling words, and I feel like he would easily get burnt out if I was just giving him test after test. So, if there were one assessment that said he could do 5th grade level work, I'd do that book instead of one that is too simplistic.

 

See, with my kids, once they showed me they know how to spell the words on the first try every time, we stopped spelling altogether. I did not give them "new words on a test each day". No tests, no words - they could spell fine in 3rd grade, so why go through busywork?

If your DS enjoys it - fine.

 

 To use the spelling example, do I ask him to do more work each week? Do I give him a book that's a higher grade level? How high? At what point do his academic abilities exceed his maturity level? Do I let him just enjoy that it comes easily to him? Do I drop it altogether because he "gets it"? I don't know.

 

Spelling - if they can spell, I see no need to keep drilling. Math facts - if they are fluent and quick, ditto.

I do not give my kids more work - just smarter work. If it is something that is mindless busy work to them because they know the stuff already, I would not do it.

Basically I would only give an assignment when  I could identify what exactly they were supposed to learn from the assignment and that this was something they still needed to learn. Any assignment for which i cannot discern a clear purpose within my child's education is pointless.

 

You will notice when a lack of maturity gets in the way because he won't understand and master the concepts. Until then, I would just keep going with work that is stimulating and interesting and not "easy".

With DS, the only time we hit such a spot was with a certain chapter in AoPS Intro to Algebra in 7th grade. We skipped it nd came back to it several months later.

Edited March 19, 2016 by regentrude

[EmseB]

See, with my kids, once they showed me they know how to spell the words on the first try every time, we stopped spelling altogether. I did not give them "new words on a test each day". No tests, no words - they could spell fine in 3rd grade, so why go through busywork?

If your DS enjoys it - fine.

 

 

Spelling - if they can spell, I see no need to keep drilling. Math facts - if they are fluent and quick, ditto.

I do not give my kids more work - just smarter work. If it is something that is mindless busy work to them because they know the stuff already, I would not do it.

Basically I would only give an assignment when  I could identify what exactly they were supposed to learn from the assignment and that this was something they still needed to learn. Any assignment for which i cannot discern a clear purpose within my child's education is pointless.

 

You will notice when a lack of maturity gets in the way because he won't understand and master the concepts. Until then, I would just keep going with work that is stimulating and interesting and not "easy".

With DS, the only time we hit such a spot was with a certain chapter in AoPS Intro to Algebra in 7th grade. We skipped it nd came back to it several months later.

 

Well, that's the thing -- he doesn't know it already, he's never learned it, right?  So I can't assume he knows (again, just for example) how to spell in general simply because he does well with 4th grade words and rules.  And I don't know that because he could easily discern spelling patterns and rules for this week's words that he could do so with the rules and words for next week.  So, sometimes, the purpose of an assignment is to demonstrate mastery to me, his teacher.  At least, that's how I view some things that we're doing.  It is easy for him to learn those things, but I feel like he still has to learn them, if that makes sense.  Maybe that's my own hangup?  And he does enjoy having an "easy" subject because some of the things we do require a lot of him and are not easy.

 

Or with math.  I *think* he could take assessments through his current math book and probably get 90-100% correct, but he has never learned the content explicitly.  So I get a bit stymied as to what to do.  This stuff isn't hard to learn, but he does have to know it to have a strong foundation for when math gets more difficult.  He is working a grade ahead in math and we supplement with BA once a week.  But my comfort level with working any faster/smarter than that is low.

 

But, if I got an overall assessment of what the top of his ability was in certain areas, I feel like I could work with that a little better and assign the "smarter" work without worrying that I was skipping things that he hasn't yet mastered.

[EndOfOrdinary]

We did a bit of guess and check. To use the spelling example: if 3rd grade words provided very little struggle (and I do mean struggle) then I would go to 7th grade. I deliberately wanted to see where the max line was. Most programs have samples online. I would go over the sample with Ds. If 7th was too high, I'd dial back to 5th, try the sample, and see. If 7th worked easily, I'd go to 10th.

 

Your child should have to work to learn. It should not just be a breeze. It should entail actually challenge and struggle. If he is not struggling, he is not getting a very good message about life. Every subject does not have to be this way, but at least 3 or 4 should be.

 

No test can tell you where optimal learning is happening. Kids are too variable. If you have the need to wonder if you should accellerate, my answer would be yes. More than likely, you should accellerate quite a bit.

 

Accellerate does not mean just do more work at a faster pace. It normally means jumping the level of depth up quite a few notches. The words "spelling workbook pages" sounds to me like you are not using curriculum designed for accelleration. It is often not a rote thing, but an analytical style of curriculum whihc provides fewer activites with much higher level thinking.

[EndOfOrdinary]

If your student can get 90 to 100 percent on the chapter tests for his math book, you are having him do busywork. Give him the tests. Prove to yourselves can do it. Then give him actual work. Like work. The definition of work should not be "something to just move through." It should be *work*. At this point you are probably going to get quite a hit of push back as you have accustomed him to not having to think or work at school.

 

Saxon is attrocious for most accellerated kids. It is just repetitions. It is not depth. Much of Memoria Press is similar. If you have a kid who really needs accelleration, you might want to consider curriculum that steps quite a bit away from the traditional and really asks your student to think about what they are learning.

 

Again, it is not a test situation. It is actually thinking differently about learning and education.

[kbutton]

You can accelerate kids in many different ways, as EndofOrdinary stated. Some people compact curriculum, meaning that they skip the easier sections and do only the hardest portions of a book or activity. Not everyone skips, and not everyone does "more." Some kids are ready for a greater challenge, but they still might not tackle that new challenge at the same pace as the child who is the "typical" age for that task would accomplish it (especially if lots of stamina is required for output, for instance).

 

I don't think you are silly for wanting an IQ test and/or subject matter test (Woodcock Johnson is good for showing their strengths in subject-specific ways). It was helpful for us with both our kids, but we also had some exceptionalities in play that were clouding the picture and that contribute to how quickly our kids can be accelerated (even with accommodations for their difficulties). This is where for us, the IQ test gave us a range, the WJ showed the strengths and (relative) weaknesses, and other testing showed us why we had some glitches that didn't fit with either of those numbers. For us, it was extremely helpful to know my son's reading level along with knowing that he hits a point where abstract concepts through reading are a bit shaky because of a specific disability. It's okay to test if you want to. Just know the limitations of the testing too--what regentrude said about maturity and such is true, though I don't think that makes testing pointless. It's just good to know what you want to get out of the testing so that you are sure it's possible for the test to deliver (or help you figure it out).

 

Spelling is a hard area to use as an example. Some kids are natural spellers, some are not, and some won't get any better with practice! Personally, we use Sequential Spelling, and as soon as typing is reasonably efficient, a lot of what we're doing with it is reinforcing the typing patterns that go with the spelling patterns (it's a pattern-based approach). You can use it at pretty much any pace you want to. 

[Dmmetler]

I used the DORA and DOMA to give me confidence on accelerating dramatically-I had a 7 yr old insisting she wanted to start algebra, and I was reluctant. Having something show me that she truly had mastered K-8th grade math, even stuff we hadn't explicitly taught, made me a lot more confident in moving on. (Reading was much less of a surprise). The EXPLORE and SAT have also given me confidence on our path in later years.

 

Sometimes it just helps to have a third party say, yeah, this kid really is ready for what they're demanding, even if it's really really far from what is typical for that age.

[Incognito]

A relatively cheap way to test your child is to do an online test.  We've done the ADAM for math, the DORA for reading, and the Gibsons test for learning styles/strengths-weaknesses.  We had to do them for our cover school, but we also did IQ (WISC) testing and the WJ test beforehand with a psych.  The ADAM, DORA, and Gibsons tests did generally match up quite well with what we saw on the testing the psych had done.  For us, we have dual exceptionalities, so it was extremely helpful to have gone to a psych and to get the help they gave us, but without 2e in the mix (or a need to document for some other reason) I'd be very happy with just the other tests.

 

[EmseB]

Thank you all for giving me some things to think about.

 

I know that acceleration is not just more and/or faster work. And there are some areas where DS is working hard to learn material. For example, we have a lot of really good discussion jumping off his MP lit guides and Greek Myths studies. Discussions about character motivation, nuances in the text that he missed, morals that apply universally...those sorts of things. He reads very fast and tends towards the black and white, so I find these things to be good for him. I don't worry that he's challenged for depth or is only doing busy work with MP. Latin is a new language for him and LC is plenty of work even if he finds memorization easy. He has to work at applying the memorization. But, yeah, for math in particular, I often find myself wanting more for him (which is why we added BA), but DH was homeschooled and is very strong in math, and went through the whole Saxon program with his best friend who is a literal genius when it comes to math and science (ended up with his doctorate in a stem field)...so DH is reluctant to switch from what he sees as a strong program (nevermind it was practically the only homeschool friendly program at the time!). But he often works out algebra problems with the boys for fun and gives them "puzzles" to figure out, so I think he sort of realizes that more deep learning could/should be happening.

 

Anyway, the discussion is helpful. I don't think maybe my DS is quite where some of y'alls kids are. He is bright and I appreciate not having to hold him back based solely on school age/grade requirements, but reading over this board has given me new appreciation for the word "accelerated"!!

 

For context, I was thinking about this because I wanted to give both boys the Math Mammoth assessment just to see how they would do, where they would place, and I was thinking it would be nice to just get that sort of assessment across the board.

[TerriM]

I guess I feel like acceleration is needed when a kid is bored.  Which is not to say that a kid can't be bored because they simply don't like the subject, but if they like the subject or you *think* they'd like the subject if it went faster, then they need some acceleration.  If a kid's plugging along quite happy with the work, then don't worry about it.   Pretests (you can use the chapter practice test in math) can be helpful to identifying whether someone needs to do the work in a chapter (if they score 80% on the pretest, then why would you have them work through 100% of the problems?).  Other things to try are doing only odd problems and if DS isn't getting tests correct in the 90-100% range, go back to doing all problems.   Or if he does odd problems and gets a lot of them wrong in a particular section, then he can get more practice with the evens.

[Mike in SA]

Fwiw, our kids let *us* know without even a hint of subtlety.  The youngest outright asked us to home school so he could learn at his level.

 

Every child is different, but having an idea of your kids' relative strengths can't hurt.  You might be able to preempt an under-challenge being dumped on a kid later on.

[La Condessa]

Anyway, the discussion is helpful. I don't think maybe my DS is quite where some of y'alls kids are. He is bright and I appreciate not having to hold him back based solely on school age/grade requirements, but reading over this board has given me new appreciation for the word "accelerated"!!

 

For context, I was thinking about this because I wanted to give both boys the Math Mammoth assessment just to see how they would do, where they would place, and I was thinking it would be nice to just get that sort of assessment across the board.

There are a number of us around with just moderately accelerated kids, too. The stories from the profoundly gifted kids on here can be pretty awing, but there's a lot of great information and encouragement for parents of accelerated learners at all levels.

 

Questions about testing seem to come around periodically here; specifically, whether or not testing is helpful, as you know your own child already. It seems like the answers are always divided between 'No, not at all' and 'Yes--but not because it gave me a lot of information I didn't already know, rather it gave me the confidence to accelerate/accelerate more'. It sounds to me like you fall in the latter category. You already know that your ds finds his schoolwork in many areas easy. If you feel that seeing his abilities in different areas laid out for you would help you in knowing where/how far to accelerate, go for it! Especially if you are used to using curricula that you find harder to know how and where to compact when ds masters the material more quickly than they planned for, maybe having those test results will help you to be able to step outside the normal progression, pretest and skip, or assign fewer problems where fewer are needed. You'll move through things very quickly at first, until he finds the sweet spot with the appropriate level of challenge for him.

 

My only experience with testing is the DORA/ADAM assessments. I do like how they lay out each subcategory for you, and it did help me by pointing out to me which specific areas were behind others and needed more focused work, and which were already understood.

 

Welcome, JodieSue!

[Dmmetler]

Sometimes you know, your child is practically renting a bullhorn to tell you, but you still don't believe. In my case, I had a 7 yr old tell me that there was nothing new in her math book and begging to start "real math", to the point of printing off and doing the Saxon placement test on her own. But I also had RR saying not to rush to calculus, Stanley Schmidt saying you shouldn't do algebra until you have hair under your arms (BTW, the top math track in the PS here would have DD starting algebra this fall-and she still fails that test), the PS wisdom that most kids aren't ready for algebra before 8th if not 9th grade, and all my child development training. All told me, basically, that my 7 yr old couldn't possibly know what she needed. That there was no way she should be ready for algebra, or even pre-algebra, at an age where she should have been finishing 1st grade!

 

And that was with prior test scores telling me she was PG.

 

Doing the silly little DOMA adaptive online assessment and watching her do it, and to see that she was solving novel problems in a logical fashion and was truly filling gaps for herself told me that, yeah, she was ready. Maybe not for a middle school workload, but certainly for middle school, if not high school, math. The EXPLORE math score later on shored that up.

 

It also gave me confidence to say "Let's try it", when, as a young 8 yr old, she got the opportunity to start auditing college zoology classes and was dying to do it. Because she'd shown me that, yeah, she was right.

 

It also works the other way-this year she has test scores showing she's ready to start college "for real", and she's telling me she doesn't feel ready. So, we're going to back off, do more MOOCs and find other ways to get content, and not dive in. Because what I learned from testing is that she knows more about her brain and how she works than all the experts out there, and I need to trust her.

 

I don't believe information is ever wasted.

[Runningmom80]

I agree with all of the previous posters, that it's kind of guesswork even with an assessment.

 

That being said, I've found achievement testing to be helpful.  It gave me a ball park.  His spelling came back at post high school at age 7 so I finally felt confident enough to drop spelling. :laugh:

 

I don't think it's necessary, but if you are really struggling with the confidence to accelerate, it does help.

[LisaKinVA]

My oldest three are all squarely in the "highly gifted" range.  I didn't need the testing to know, but my oldest went through a battery of testing to ensure there weren't masked LD's, areas of relative strength and weakness, and to help me narrow down curriculum that might be better than others.  I do not know where my youngest two land (one has neither drive nor motivation in academic areas, but based upon school performance and genetic probability, she's most likely at least moderately gifted), my youngest has a severe speech delay which delays her academically.  She is now "on track" to be "at grade level" by the end of this year (her vocabulary use and spoken sentence structure indicate high intelligence, her understanding of math concepts does as well, once she is reading fluently, I expect she will take off, as she shows both drive and self-motivation to carry her forward quickly).

 

Personality and interest levels play as much into acceleration of materials as does IQ level.  You can have an HG or PG kid with zero interest in a subject area -- and making them perform at a high level in those areas is going to be really tough.  Conversely, a driven, self-motivated child who is highly interested in a subject area you will have a huge difficulty holding them back.

 

Testing with my oldest did make me more comfortable dealing with the next two.  But the next two I've really focused on using out of level standardized testing (dd was taking tests at least 4 years out of level) to help me find areas of relative weakness.  Experience helped me find curriculum that was easy to compact/accelerate/tailor to individual children.  I haven't switched LA, history, science or math programs for elementary level in a long time (all five have used the same reading program, oldest four have used the same grammar and composition and history, youngest three have used the same science and math, although I will be adding Beast Academy in for the youngest two now.

 

But, like you've heard from others, your child will tell you (either by digging their heels in, crying, doing, or with words) what they like/dislike. My oldest was quite vocal early on. My dd was less expressive, but her mood would change a bit, my middle child was not vocal, but very, very demonstrative in mood and output).  It can be a bit of a wild ride -- and I've found I've learned as much from my kids on these issues as they've learned doing the work.

[TerriM]

Sometimes you know, your child is practically renting a bullhorn to tell you, but you still don't believe. In my case, I had a 7 yr old tell me that there was nothing new in her math book and begging to start "real math", to the point of printing off and doing the Saxon placement test on her own. But I also had RR saying not to rush to calculus, Stanley Schmidt saying you shouldn't do algebra until you have hair under your arms (BTW, the top math track in the PS here would have DD starting algebra this fall-and she still fails that test), the PS wisdom that most kids aren't ready for algebra before 8th if not 9th grade, and all my child development training. All told me, basically, that my 7 yr old couldn't possibly know what she needed. That there was no way she should be ready for algebra, or even pre-algebra, at an age where she should have been finishing 1st grade!

 

 

That's so sad!   They're ready when they're ready, each kid different.  I wish B&M schools would stop pegging everyone into the same hole.  

 

My son is 12 (6th grade), and finished Algebra, Algebra II, and is doing Precalc now.   He is finally a happy happy camper.  Finally feeling like he's actually learning something.   We knew he needed to be accelerated in math because he was

a) picking up concepts about three years early (ie, multiplication in Kindergarten and fractions, decimals, and probability in first grade)

b) could be taught harder concepts without too much whining or anxiety (although he still wanted to play LEGOs instead)

c) Expressed that he was bored.

Edited March 20, 2016 by tiuzzol2

[Incognito]

The ADAM Test is here.  http://www.letsgolearn.com/lglsite/ADAM_math/educators  It's $20, and it sounds like just what you would like.  Look it over and see.  IIf you use it, be sure to tell your child they must give an answer on all of the questions.  The test will let them say "I don't know or I haven't learned this yet" and then it cuts off the testing in that area.  It also will give you Khan Academy info linking to which lessons are appropriate for a challenge, if you like. 

 

 

[Arcadia]

As for spelling, my natural speller didn't need it and we did nothing. My other kid needed a term of spelling and he is good.

 

For assessments, even though hubby and I didn't need it, they were useful for calming worried public schooled in-laws. Tests that are adaptive are useful when kids are doing it properly. Two careless errors in a row would bump down the results.

 

For day to day, kids just pause when they hit a mental block for the material/knowledge to simmer. Sometimes they move along and circle back later. Whatever works for one of my kid may not work for his sibling. Lots of trial and error :)

[Jackie]

My kid wasn't subtle, so I didn't have to guess about whether to "skip ahead". My only issue was trying to figure out how far to skip ahead.

 

I will say that even very basic testing such as the DORA was eye-opening for me. While I can easily see how well my daughter was doing in some subjects, I was *way* off on my estimates of her decoding and comprehension. Seriously, crazy far off, like 6+ grade levels off. At the end of this school year, I intend to do an out-of-level ITBS to get another snapshot of how she is doing. When she's a bit older, I'll probably have a full round of professional testing done. It is helpful to me.

 

We tried a spelling curric at her request. It was pointless. She rarely got anything wrong and just knows how to spell, presumably from her reading. We'll only attempt a spelling curric again if I notice enough mistakes in her writing that it seems worthwhile.

[MotherOfBoys]

The Let's Go Learn Dora and Doma gave me my confidence to accelerate. I have many homeschool friends that believe in "no multiplication before 3rd grade" and "no algebra before 7th grade". So I had to see if my son was really doing it and retaining or were my friends right. The tests showed he knew stuff that I haven't even taught him yet, formally anyway. Great confidence builder for my husband and I. Great proof to the in-laws that hated the thought of homeschooling. We are about to take it a second time next week.

 

As for curriculum, Spelling Plus k-6 is easy to place and then accelerate without breaking the bank. Math Mammoth 1-6 digital download is what we use to save costs also. I only print what is needed. We originally used Saxon, before testing, and we did K-3 in one year. My husband almost had a heart attack with the price!  I like the well trained mind way for history and science because I can make it his level by my choice of library books. So every couple months, when he makes a jump, I increase book levels.

 

I agree with previous posts that you might not be doing him justice in life if your not challenging him at some point. Math does seem to be the easiest to do this with at first.

 

Good Luck!

[LisaD]

To the original poster:

 

A couple of thoughts based on my experience with my high achieving 7 yo and my past experience teaching a self contained GATE class (5th gr)....

 

Spelling - my son is a natural. It was clear pretty quick that he wasn't being challenged so I gave. Diagnostic test part way through the year and adjusted his level to match. Since he is still learning specific spelling rules, I just made a schedule to incorporate the rules he missed into our regular lessons. (We use spell to write and read)

 

When I taught math to my 5th graders, I gave each chapter test before I taught the chapter. If they earned a high enough score, they didn't have to sit in on lessons but were able to do fun and challenging math game, logic problems, brain teasers, etc. (of their choice). Also, When you review any missed answers on the 'pre test, it's usually pretty clear if they didn't know how to do the problem or if they made careless errors.

 

Don't know if that helps or not...