What online writing for competent but very reluctant writer 10th/11th

[Matryoshka]

Dd is 15.  She would like to graduate in two more years (after this one), but it might be three if she doesn't pack it all in - I'm trying to stay flexible.

 

She has very strong grammar and mechanics, decent vocabulary, and knows basic essay structure.  She's done papers with MLA citations.  But she really doesn't like to read or write - she'd prefer to do almost anything else.

 

I'm thinking of signing her up for Center for Lit American next year for literature/reading.  I know they have an optional writing portion, but she really doesn't want to write about literary analysis, especially if it's all she'd be writing about all year.  So, I'm looking for a writing-only course for her.  I'd rather it not be heavy on grammar and mechanics review (or even bother with it at all except for in context of editing after the fact) - she's good with that - I want writing, with lots of good instruction on what makes a good topic, how to formulate and defend a strong thesis, elaborating past the basics, how to dig in to a topic rather than just dashing off the basics.

 

Are there any online classes that come to mind that would fit this criteria well?  I think I'd prefer live classes, but if there's anything that fulfills those requirements to a T that isn't, I'd still like to hear about it.  I had been thinking of LToW.  Would that be good for that?  Would it be enough for 10th, possibly 11th grade (I'm feeling like it's often done younger)?    It would be especially awesome if there were some course that would engage her rather than just suffering through it, but maybe that's asking too much...  :tongue_smilie:

 

She'd take English 101 at the CC the next year, and other CC English after that.

 

[Julie of KY]

Brave Writer has done wonders for my reluctant writer -- he still doesn't like to write, but now can write a very good paper. It's been amazing how the Brave Writer instructors brought out his writing voice which is unmistakably his voice.

 

I've used Center for lit for out literature portion and used Brave Writer for our writing courses. It's been a very good mix for us.

[Matryoshka]

Brave Writer has done wonders for my reluctant writer -- he still doesn't like to write, but now can write a very good paper. It's been amazing how the Brave Writer instructors brought out his writing voice which is unmistakably his voice.

 

I've used Center for lit for out literature portion and used Brave Writer for our writing courses. It's been a very good mix for us.

Which Brave writer class(es) would you recommend for a kid like mine? The BW classes are asynchronous, yes? How is the instruction/feedback given?

[Julie of KY]

My high school kids have started with Kidswriter Intermediate, though I'm not sure it fits the bill for what you are looking for. We've also done Expository Essay, MLA Research Essay, many of the family classes and my writing loving daughter has done a number of the fiction writing classes.

 

Kidswriter Int - this focuses on word play and making connections that you would not otherwise make; lots of skill-building of how to go about gathering ideas and funneling them into something useful; no major writing work is shown at the end of class. It feels like you don't do as much, but both my boys found it very useful. (I'm not sure this is what you want however).

 

Expository Essay - teaching how to write essays, make theses, defend your points etc. 2 essays are written over 6 weeks with several sub-assignments

 

MLA Research Essay - excellent class; builds on essay writing to write a 5-7 page research essay. Excellent teaching in all aspects from how to pick a thesis, note taking and research, MLA formatting, outlining and drafting the essay as well as polishing it well.

 

There are also options of literary analysis writing classes as well as other classes.

 

These are all fine for high school students. My 11th grader is taking classes through them now and will continue next year. There are plenty of older high school students in the high school classes.

 

Teaching is done in a forum setting. Assignments are posted to read and do. Typically you have 2-3 days to finish each assignment with 2-3 small assignments due per week. The assignments build upon one another. For instance you may research good quotes that could be used in your paper and then practice paraphrasing them. Eventually you'll use this work for your paper as well. The teachers have all been very responsive to questions that you can post to the classroom or email privately and all have the option of also texting and calling them. For the MLA Research class, I was not a good intermediary and my son needed lots of help. The teacher was invaluable in helping him every step of the way. I find the teacher feedback fabulous and appropriate to each child's writing. They do not try to conform the kids to one voice, but each person writes papers to their own personality. You can see and learn from the feedback given to others as well. The feedback is positive with the teacher finding good things to comment on as well as very constructive in how to improve. I've been impressed with how good the feedback is for any level of writing -- my son gets the feedback he needs, and students that already are very good writers get very good constructive feedback at their level.

 

Feel free to ask me anything more about BW classes. They are expensive and worth every penny for my family. I can teach the mechanics of writing, but I can not give feedback at all on how to improve. My reluctant writer will say that he still hates writing, but if he has to write, he'd rather do it the Brave Writer way. :)

 

 

 

[Matryoshka]

My high school kids have started with Kidswriter Intermediate, though I'm not sure it fits the bill for what you are looking for. We've also done Expository Essay, MLA Research Essay, many of the family classes and my writing loving daughter has done a number of the fiction writing classes.

 

Kidswriter Int - this focuses on word play and making connections that you would not otherwise make; lots of skill-building of how to go about gathering ideas and funneling them into something useful; no major writing work is shown at the end of class. It feels like you don't do as much, but both my boys found it very useful. (I'm not sure this is what you want however).

 

Expository Essay - teaching how to write essays, make theses, defend your points etc. 2 essays are written over 6 weeks with several sub-assignments

 

MLA Research Essay - excellent class; builds on essay writing to write a 5-7 page research essay. Excellent teaching in all aspects from how to pick a thesis, note taking and research, MLA formatting, outlining and drafting the essay as well as polishing it well.

 

There are also options of literary analysis writing classes as well as other classes.

 

These are all fine for high school students. My 11th grader is taking classes through them now and will continue next year. There are plenty of older high school students in the high school classes.

 

Teaching is done in a forum setting. Assignments are posted to read and do. Typically you have 2-3 days to finish each assignment with 2-3 small assignments due per week. The assignments build upon one another. For instance you may research good quotes that could be used in your paper and then practice paraphrasing them. Eventually you'll use this work for your paper as well. The teachers have all been very responsive to questions that you can post to the classroom or email privately and all have the option of also texting and calling them. For the MLA Research class, I was not a good intermediary and my son needed lots of help. The teacher was invaluable in helping him every step of the way. I find the teacher feedback fabulous and appropriate to each child's writing. They do not try to conform the kids to one voice, but each person writes papers to their own personality. You can see and learn from the feedback given to others as well. The feedback is positive with the teacher finding good things to comment on as well as very constructive in how to improve. I've been impressed with how good the feedback is for any level of writing -- my son gets the feedback he needs, and students that already are very good writers get very good constructive feedback at their level.

 

Feel free to ask me anything more about BW classes. They are expensive and worth every penny for my family. I can teach the mechanics of writing, but I can not give feedback at all on how to improve. My reluctant writer will say that he still hates writing, but if he has to write, he'd rather do it the Brave Writer way. :)

 

Thanks, Julie, that is very helpful feedback.  Do you think the sequence Expository Essay / Adv Comp / LIt Analysis / MLA Essay would work?  With maybe the SAT/ACT Essay thrown in if she decides next year is junior year and she takes those tests?

 

Though they are really expensive - what, well over 2x what the LToW class would cost!  I'll have to talk to dd about what format she thinks she'd prefer (live or asynchronous like this).  My older dd absolutely had to have live, but this is a different kid, and for just one class, this could  work.  But ouch, the $$$!

[Matryoshka]

And a follow-up question to anyone who's taken the LToW classes.  Do you think it would fit my goals for dd as laid out in the OP?  Is it something like what I'm looking for, or would it miss the mark?  What kinds of writing do they do in the LToW class over the course of the year - how much writing, and what kind? I know they focus on 'invention', which is good, but what else?  I do like that they're live, and compared to BW, downright affordable!

[Matryoshka]

More questions if anyone's still reading... dd said she'd actually prefer an asynchronous class, so that opens up more options...

 

Another one I've seen mentioned a lot here is WriteAtHome.  Would they let a new student sign up for High School Comp (the year-long course) 2 or 3, do you think?  The level 1 still has grammar and mechanics review.  Anyone want to compare WriteAtHome to the Bravewriter classes?  I wish the Bravewriter classes weren't so $$$$$ - yikes! 

 

 

[Hilltopmom]

We just started Bravewriter Expository essay & it's going well so far:)

 

Hoping to do MLA next

[morningcoffee]

:lurk5: bumping .... 

[Brad S]

FYI, there have been several threads on LToW, such as here ; just search on LToW, etc.for a broad range of views.  You might also want to have your DC read Writing With a Thesis before the class. My DS thought it really resonated.  You'll still want the feedback of a class, but it might help cut out the cost of one of the classes along the way.

[Matryoshka]

FYI, there have been several threads on LToW, such as here ; just search on LToW, etc.for a broad range of views.  You might also want to have your DC read Writing With a Thesis before the class. My DS thought it really resonated.  You'll still want the feedback of a class, but it might help cut out the cost of one of the classes along the way.

 

Oh, I've read all those threads, heck I've started at least a couple of them!  But like the one you linked, a lot of them are coming from people looking for 8th/9th grade work with kids who have not necessarily done essays yet.  But so many people rave about it, and I do see that people keep saying it has that 'invention' piece, whatever that means.  Someone else said the class started slow, but then really ramped up - but how much, and in what way?  Is it the right fit for an older kid who has the basics down?  Will she be inspired to write better, or will she find it tedious?

 

What I don't want:

 

1. A class that has a lot of grammar work - sentences, predicates, verbals... she's got that.

2. A class that spends a lot of time working on how to write a paragraph. 

4. A class that concentrates on basic essay structure: intro, three or so supporting paragraphs, conclusion.  She's got it.

3. She already knows what a thesis is.  She has also written many multi-paged papers with theses, incorporating quotes and MLA formatting over the last three years or so. 

 

What she needs work on is refining this - she's got the definitions and the framework, she knows the formula  - but often what she writes is uninspired because... she doesn't care.  She knows the formula; she can follow it in a perfunctory manner.  She doesn't need to be told what it is again - what she needs now is to  make it good.  Going beyond the formula, refining the writing within the framework. 

 

LToW was sounding interesting because of that 'invention' piece - I thought that might help her be more inspired?  And to hone both thesis and argument.  And then don't they spend time on 'elocution' whatever that is?  I don't know, it sounded like it might go beyond the formula - or at least present a different kind of formula??  And people gush about how awesome it is - once they figure out how to implement it. ;)  But I'm not really sure if it's the right thing for a 10th/11th grader who's already got essay basics down vs. the younger kids I often see using it.  Maybe, maybe not, depending on what it's actually focusing on, which is still a bit nebulous to me.  That's why I was asking more specific questions here.

 

And Bravewriter is also sounding very interesting because they seem to concentrate a lot more on voice than formula.  It could be that's just what she needs?  Two very different approaches.

 

And I wish she were the type of kid I could have go through a book about writing style with at home - I think I may have almost all of them!  But she does not want to work with me.  At.all.

 

I'd love to hear more feedback! :)

 

 

Edited February 23, 2016 by Matryoshka

[RootAnn]

:lurk5:

[yvonne]

 

- I want writing, with lots of good instruction on what makes a good topic, how to formulate and defend a strong thesis, elaborating past the basics, how to dig in to a topic rather than just dashing off the basics.

 

Have you looked at the WTMA Rhetoric courses?  They seem exactly like what you're looking for. They aren't lit-based. The Rhetoric classes are progymnasmata-based, so I would imagine they have a very similar focus on tools of invention as LToW does. With "weekly writing assignments of around 2 pages each," plus two longer papers of 5-7 pages in the Rhetoric courses, your dd would definitely be doing a lot of writing. From what I know of LToW I, your dd would definitely be doing more writing in the WTMA Rhetoric courses than in the first LToW class.

 

 

[Mom22ns]

More questions if anyone's still reading... dd said she'd actually prefer an asynchronous class, so that opens up more options...

 

Another one I've seen mentioned a lot here is WriteAtHome.  Would they let a new student sign up for High School Comp (the year-long course) 2 or 3, do you think?  The level 1 still has grammar and mechanics review.  Anyone want to compare WriteAtHome to the Bravewriter classes?  I wish the Bravewriter classes weren't so $$$$$ - yikes! 

 

Dd is doing Write at Home for the first time this year. She started in Level 4. I contacted them and told them her background (she'd already done Blue Tent Honors English 2 and Composition at the CC). They said definitely Comp 4.

 

We've been happy with the class overall. The workload is very moderate, although it varies quite a bit. It started out at just an hour or two per week, but there have been weeks that required significantly more effort. My only problem with the class has been communication with the teacher. Apparently there have been technical difficulties that caused dd to not receive messages from her teacher.  So, she'd ask a question and get no response. The teacher said she responded, but dd heard nothing. There were no such issues if the teacher sent messages to me, so we worked it out that she sent them to both of us all the time and the problem was solved, but it took quite awhile and caused dd to fall behind some.

[OnMyOwn]

I had written a long review about LTOW in the past, saying how much the invention piece had helped my son. It did and it's exactly what he needed.  However, now that we're further into the year, I will say that I think that is the best part of the class.  I really don't like how they are continuing to write completely formulaic essays.  I didn't expect that.

[journey00]

Brave Writer has done wonders for my reluctant writer -- he still doesn't like to write, but now can write a very good paper. It's been amazing how the Brave Writer instructors brought out his writing voice which is unmistakably his voice.

 

I've used Center for lit for out literature portion and used Brave Writer for our writing courses. It's been a very good mix for us.

 

Which class did your reluctant writer take & how old is your child? Thanks.  :)

[Julie of KY]

Which class did your reluctant writer take & how old is your child? Thanks.  :)

 

My reluctant writer started basic freewriting in BW style and then took Kidswriter Basic (family class) in 9th grade. At that point in time his younger siblings (7th and 5th) could write better than him. We then did Just So Stories (family class when he was in 9th). In 10th he took Kidswriter Intermediate (very hard for him) and then Expository Essay in 10th. This year (11th) he took MLA Research Essay. He also worked on one personal essay privately with a BW teacher.

 

He is 2E - very smart, but also with learning disabilities. I wouldn't necessarily say his progress is typical because he does assimilate the information well. He went from sounding like a 3rd grader to a bright high school student in a couple of years. He had the foundation of grammar, vocabulary, etc. and is a voracious reader, but the language output (and physical writing skills) were not there.

 

He does minimal writing outside of the BW classes - mostly short answer paragraph writing.

 

BW has been fantastic for all my kids of very different abilities.

 

[journey00]

My reluctant writer started basic freewriting in BW style and then took Kidswriter Basic (family class) in 9th grade. At that point in time his younger siblings (7th and 5th) could write better than him. We then did Just So Stories (family class when he was in 9th). In 10th he took Kidswriter Intermediate (very hard for him) and then Expository Essay in 10th. This year (11th) he took MLA Research Essay. He also worked on one personal essay privately with a BW teacher.

 

He is 2E - very smart, but also with learning disabilities. I wouldn't necessarily say his progress is typical because he does assimilate the information well. He went from sounding like a 3rd grader to a bright high school student in a couple of years. He had the foundation of grammar, vocabulary, etc. and is a voracious reader, but the language output (and physical writing skills) were not there.

 

He does minimal writing outside of the BW classes - mostly short answer paragraph writing.

 

BW has been fantastic for all my kids of very different abilities.

 

 

Thank you so much for your detailed reply.  It is very encouraging & I may sign up my 10 & 11 year old for the Kidswriter Basic.  Was that difficult to learn for you how to coach him? :)

Edited March 13, 2016 by journey00

[Julie of KY]

It wasn't difficult in the class, but in real life I'm better through BW methods, but I'd still rather off and on pay them to coach my student through writing since they are so much better.