AOPS Pre-Algebra - do all the problems?

[EmilyGF]

Up until now, I've been having ds10 do all the AOPS Pre-A problems as well as Alcumus set on "super-hard" or whatever the highest level of hardness is.

 

But I've overheard him describing AOPS Pre-A to friends as "either really easy problems or really hard problems, and not much in between." I don't want him to use a ton of time on "really easy problems," and frankly don't remember any math teacher I ever had assigning all the problems in any book (let alone all the problems in a book as well as a computer program of generated problems). 

 

Would it be OK to assign odds, let's say, except all the starred problems? How do you handle this?

 

Emily

 

ETA: He's also finishing up SM Intensive Practice 6B, which is of course completely different, but another source of work.

Edited February 2, 2016 by EmilyGF

[Gil]

I am quite upset with AoPS Intro. to Number Theory, and have never seen AoPS PreAlgebra but I looked through Intro to Algebra a long while back and I remember thinking that the book had a more thoughtful selection of problems up front vs most other texts.

 

I don't see how taking away the simpler problems (which are usually built to make the student use  skills for the harder problem coming up next) and just leaving him with the super hard problems makes it better.

 

But I'm a meanie and have made my kids do all the problems since MM1a, so maybe I'm not the one you should be listening too.

 

ETA: If PreA is just a part of the math he does, then that is different. You need to ask yourself what function do you WANT AoPS to serve and is it serving that function for your son? What is it adding that Singapore Primary Mathematics 6 (with all the bells and whistles) lacks?

 

What, if anything, are you giving up by doing 2 full math programs to capacity each week? Is that missing item a high enough priority?

Would cutting back on PreA help you to get to that missing subject more, etc, etc, etc...

 

Edited February 2, 2016 by Gil

[MinivanMom]

We do every single problem. My understanding is that AOPS is designed differently from other math programs. Each problem is designed to build on the previous one, so that the student is learning as he works through them. This is fundamentally different from a traditional text where you teach a concept, and then do a whole page of similar problems. With a traditional text, you can assign just the odd or just the even problems without missing anything. With AOPS, skipping problems would mean skipping instruction.

 

I do think that doing Alcumus on top of all the problems in the Prealgebra text may be too much for some kids. And when you add in Singapore Intensive Practice, that's a whole lot of math he's working on every day. I would either finish 6B first before continuing in Prealgebra or go ahead and drop 6B. If he's happy with Alcumus, then I think it's fine to continue using it, but I would view it as a supplement. The real instruction is in the text, and my priority would be on completing all of those problems first. 

[wapiti]

It depends on the kid and the situation, but i assigned all the regular problems and just a selection of the challenge problems.  I also liked to use a few challenge problems for review later, at the end of the book (it's amazing how much easier they seemed after the passage of time).

 

I would only use Alcumus right along with the book if the particular kid needed that amount of practice.  Otherwise, I'd use Alcumus later, maybe by a few months, for review.

Edited February 2, 2016 by wapiti

[SanDiegoMom]

My son LOVED Aops PreA and now is doing Intro to Algebra. The amount of work in the text is perfect-- a few entry level problems and then slowly working up to the most challenging. Gradual, but they all build on each other. I used to have him work backwards, since a lot of it was review for him and he had trouble focusing when it was too easy. But we are out of review and now he works them the correct way and we never ever skip. 

 

If I used Alcumus in addition, we would never be done. I only assign it if there's a day I don't want him to move forward in the book that day.  

 

We used Singapore up through 5b but I'd read that 6a and b were just review, so we skipped it.  He had had enough of Singapore. 

 

We work for about an hour a day but if he didn't get distracted it would be 40 minutes. 

[AEC]

We did all the problems.  I suggest you do, for two reasons:

 

1) the problems are an essential part of the learning process with AoPS (not so much in the NT text, but definately the rest).  There are situations that aren't explicitly covered in the 'text' portion of the book.  If you skip them you'll never have been forced to think about some important cases.

2) there aren't that many, really.  It's not a drill-and-kill text.  IMO, the # problems are really fairly minimal and you really do have to do at least some actual problem solving in order to become good at it.

 

re: really easy vs really hard...IME, things we understand are easy.  things we don't are hard.  There isn't actually all that much in the middle. :D

Edited February 3, 2016 by AEC

[...................]

I think all the practice problems need to be done, but not all the challenge problems.

 

I would even go so far as to say you should add Alcumus to it because Alcumis will really shore up weak spots.

 

But you can pick and choose from the Challenge problems.

 

Personally I would not want to do two maths if I could just shore up whatever you think is lacking in AOPS by doing Alcumus.

 

AOPS is intense....

[EmilyGF]

My son LOVED Aops PreA and now is doing Intro to Algebra. The amount of work in the text is perfect-- a few entry level problems and then slowly working up to the most challenging. Gradual, but they all build on each other. I used to have him work backwards, since a lot of it was review for him and he had trouble focusing when it was too easy. But we are out of review and now he works them the correct way and we never ever skip. 

 

If I used Alcumus in addition, we would never be done. I only assign it if there's a day I don't want him to move forward in the book that day.  

 

We used Singapore up through 5b but I'd read that 6a and b were just review, so we skipped it.  He had had enough of Singapore. 

 

We work for about an hour a day but if he didn't get distracted it would be 40 minutes. 

This isn't what my son thinks. He finds most of them pretty easy.

 

I seem to remember a thread that talked about the actual AOPS online classes only assigning a few from the "problem sets" and mainly challenge and Alcumus. Maybe I need to go find that thread.

 

Emily

[MrsWeasley]

This isn't what my son thinks. He finds most of them pretty easy.

 

I seem to remember a thread that talked about the actual AOPS online classes only assigning a few from the "problem sets" and mainly challenge and Alcumus. Maybe I need to go find that thread.

 

Emily

If you find it, please link to it in the thread.

[...................]

AOPS Online does not assign any problems from the book.  

 

The students are expected to read the chapter and do the teaching problems (all the ones in grey that are later explained in blue.)

The students are expected to complete their Alcumus (which covers a lot but not as much as the Practice Problems)

The students are expected to complete their Challenge Problems and for each time they enter a wrong answer one point is taken away.  The idea is that they should realize not to use the CHallenge Problem as a system to check their answers, but moreso to submit correct answers that have been carefully double checked on their own.

These challenge problems are not the ones in the book.  They are similar types, but only on the Online system.  

 

This makes it very challenging (no pun intended!) to help when they get stuck because you cannot reference the solutions manual for the Challenge problems.

 

Thus, the online class is really obviously meant for very gifted students who don't *need* a lot of practice, who delve deep to understand concepts, who are motivated to spend many hours puzzling over extremely difficult questions and concepts (these are much harder than the Middle School Math Oympiads)....and the teachers are not super helfpul.

 

Assuming you are using the book on your own, I think that some kids needs the extra practice of Alcumus, and ....some don't.  You have to decide.  :o)  But, Alcumus offers less practice than just the book.  So I guess if you really only want to do one or the other, it should be the book.

[wapiti]

This isn't what my son thinks. He finds most of them pretty easy.

 

I seem to remember a thread that talked about the actual AOPS online classes only assigning a few from the "problem sets" and mainly challenge and Alcumus. Maybe I need to go find that thread.

 

Emily

 

The online classes do not assign which book problems to do.  It is expected that the student will work through the assigned "reading" sections.

 

The online classes have their own weekly, online problem sets that typically have around 7-10 problems, mostly short-answer like Alcumus, but always culminating in at least one long-answer to include a full explanation with words that is graded by an actual person.  These problem sets often start out easy but may contain very challenging problems, sometimes more challenging than the book ones - that depends on the course.  The online classes also assign the relevant topics in Alcumus.

 

Ideally, one would do at least all the regular, non-challenge exercises in the book prior to starting the weekly online class challenge set.  The long-answer problem in the class challenge set has a hard deadline.  IME, it doesn't work so well to jump into the challenge set on the evening it's due without having done the book work.  Indeed it is far better to do the book work prior to the online class on the topic, a week before that.

 

ETA, in the case of your ds who finds the regular problems easy, I'd probably still assign them because they are not very numerous.  However, if he doesn't have much trouble getting the challenge problems, it's probably not a big deal to assign, say, the odds of the regular review problems because he obviously understands the concepts.  In his case, the question seems to be how much practice will be sufficient for him to remember.

Edited February 2, 2016 by wapiti

[Arcadia]

This isn't what my son thinks. He finds most of them pretty easy.

 

I seem to remember a thread that talked about the actual AOPS online classes only assigning a few from the "problem sets" and mainly challenge and Alcumus. Maybe I need to go find that thread.

 

Emily

How fast is he doing? I have a fast worker and slow worker. My fast worker is not going to save much time skipping problems since it already takes him not much time. My slow worker gets faster doing everything as well as enrichment from other sources so he doesn't get used to only one style of questions. My kids finished SM before starting AoPS and they don't do Alcumus daily. Math is not their first love.

 

The online class expects the child to the questions in the book on their own time preferably before the class. Each class has sections to read and hopefully complete before class.

[EmilyGF]

As I'm reading this, I wonder whether I should have started him in Algebra after all (I went back and forth on that one since he could do the pretest problems for both levels)... asked him today what he learned in math and he said, "Nothing. I already knew how to do it." He's not generally a bravado-type, so while I would discount such a statement with some of my other kids, it means something for him.

 

I do think he's frustrated by the fact that he has to work so long without feeling like he's learning something new.

 

He's a fairly slow worker, and is very thoughtful about everything he does and reads, but generally never forgets what he does (or reads). He has the longest attention span of any 10-year-old I know.

 

Emily

Edited February 3, 2016 by EmilyGF

[wapiti]

If he already knows it, sure why not move on, especially if he seems bored.  FWIW, the post-tests for the online course (Prealg 1 and Prealg 2) are a bit more thorough than either the post-test for the prealgebra text or the pretest for Intro to Alg text.  If you're still not entirely certain, you could have him do selections from the chapter reviews only and he'd be done in no time.  Also keep in mind that the first few chapters of Intro to Alg review material covered in more detail in the Prealgebra text.

[Lilaclady]

I think if there are chapters that he already know very well then have him do the challenge problems and move on. The no of exercises in AOPS is not that much that having to do it all is a problem.

 

My dd had a chapter in peralgebra that was very challenging so we just did the exercises and a some review problems and moved along. We will come back and so the challenge problems later.

 

Also the prealgebra book is relatively new and a lot of older users jumped into algebra from elementary without the prealgebra buffer so if your child is up for it then get the algebra one.

[AEC]

As I'm reading this, I wonder whether I should have started him in Algebra after all (I went back and forth on that one since he could do the pretest problems for both levels)... asked him today what he learned in math and he said, "Nothing. I already knew how to do it." He's not generally a bravado-type, so while I would discount such a statement with some of my other kids, it means something for him.

 

I do think he's frustrated by the fact that he has to work so long without feeling like he's learning something new.

 

How far into the book are you?

[Roadrunner]

How far into the book are you?

This is my question as well. The second half of the book deals with geometry and some counting. I thought the book was absolutely worthwhile. We did every single problem, plus the class with assignments, and all of Alcumus. We moved over to aops after SM 5B.

[Embassy]

With one child, he did every problem except for maybe a handful of challenge problems in the entire book.  I'm accelerating my other child through it right now so I don't have him doing all of the problems.  He probably does 75% of them though.

 

HTH

[oscilatorium]

This isn't what my son thinks. He finds most of them pretty easy.

 

I seem to remember a thread that talked about the actual AOPS online classes only assigning a few from the "problem sets" and mainly challenge and Alcumus. Maybe I need to go find that thread.

 

Emily

 

If your son finds most of the problems easy, just have him do all the Challenge problems and see if that's still the case. If he still finds those easy (especially the latter half/starred problems), then he could be ready for Intro to Algebra... but it really depends what point in the book you are at, as there are many types of topics.