Another Grad School question...

[hopskipjump]

the recent grad school questions have been fascinating to read through!

 

(please don't quote)

 

DD is 99% sure she is going to grad school. Neither dh nor I went to college, so we are in complete uncharted territory here with our own life experiences to draw from. And while we don't want to put the cart before the horse and focus on grad school at all right now - - - I do have a question that matters now.

 

She is being told over and over and *over* again that where she gets her undergrad isn't all that important in the grand scheme of things. Provided that she completes her undergrad, makes high grades, scores high on the GRE, participates in additional projects (research, etc), gathers strong recommendations, writes a strong application and/or interview... participating in the honors college would be beneficial... then she can theoretically apply to any grad school she wants and have as good a shot as anyone else in making the grad school program.

 

Is this true? True-ish? Or complete bollocks?

 

Would it be weird for her to contact the local state flagship grad school program NOW and ask THEM that question? To ask them how much weight *where* she gets her undergrad degree will factor into the decision process? From the stats she's finding online, it looks like many/most of the top-ranked grad programs have an acceptance rate of about 12-18% and an average GPA of 3.5-3.9.  :blink:  So, to ME, that screams UNDERGRAD MATTERS. But, she is being told from many angles that it just... doesn't.

 

(she has applied to the local state flagship for undergrad... but it's low on her list because she really would like to go farther away from home and see the world a little bit. But, their grad program is pretty strong, so it's on the table of consideration...)

 

(She has a potential free ride from a smaller, lesser-known university. She's visited, she liked it there, liked the team she'd be with, and she loved the area. Hence the question. She can earn any degree for undergrad as long as she takes ten (iirc) specific courses within that degree. She's looking at Physical Therapy DPT programs for grad school...)

Edited January 9, 2016 by hopskipjump

[SarahW]

According to this book/article educational background does matter, sometimes.

 

Overall, I think it really matters if the undergrad is "out there" with profs who are known for advancing minority theories (or conspiracy theories. Ahem, the Florida school at the moment, ahem, God help the undergrads who were hoping to go to grad school from that department!).

 

References (which the article comments go into a bit) are an extra boost if they come from someone who is known and solid in the field. Known for a long time seems to have more credence. I was once given a "how-to" talk about how to get into a PhD program from a fellow classmate who got in. He said references from certain profs were given more weight, though they weren't the best academic profs at our school.

[SarahW]

Oh sorry, I see the article I linked is in the other thread. It came across my FB the other day, I didn't see the other thread. 

 

I got interrupted earlier. Where I was going is that the names of the profs matters on references. If small school has profs whose names are known and respected, that does matter.You can see this by history in the field - articles in good journals, membership in main societies, involvement in the top conferences. The overall name and size of the school itself is secondary, it's the profs writing recommendation letters that you want name recognition for.And who the wider academic world respects may be entirely different from who the students academically respect, but whatever, life isn't fair (in my case, I needed recs from profs who I thought were 50 years out of date, but the staleness of their scholarship apparently hadn't dawned on the rest of the field yet, lol).

 

If the grad program has taken other undergrads from the school, that does matter. They want students they know and can trust. So yeah, look at grad placement rates.

 

Also consider if "little" school even has grad placement on their radar. I was surprised to find that my little LAC didn't think about the GRE at all. I had to suggest GRE prep programs to the learning center myself. Test dates and locations were a mystery to career center. The fin aid office only offered the GRE fee waiver when I took the form to them myself. It was a small school, but still, the idea that students would go on to grad school (other than the attached seminary) seemed to be a bit shocking to them. It was kinda bizarre. 

[G5052]

Yes, start asking questions.

 

My graduate school had a list of schools that they rejected no matter what the GPA and GRE's were. They would tell the person to start non-degree and take three specific classes, and then they would reconsider. This was an "upper middle" state school with a national reputation for that particular department.

 

When I had my interview there, the chairman of the graduate program looked at my undergraduate school and GPA, and said, "You're in. Now let's talk about what you want to focus on here."

 

Ironically they had a requirement to take the GRE that I didn't even have at that point, but it was waived with the stipulation that I take it the next time it was offered so that my application was "complete." So I did that after the fact.

[flyingiguana]

If it's physical therapy, I've known kids who got majors in completely unrelated undergrad areas who later wanted to get into these sorts of programs.  They had to take a few classes to fulfill deficiencies and then apply, but they didn't seem to have any problem getting in at that point.

 

I'm thinking of one girl who majored in art and never touched a science course during her entire undergrad career.  She then went and did some non-degree physics and chem and that kind of thing at an LAC that I wouldn't have considered all that great.  And she then got into a top PT program (some kind of doctoral thing -- whatever it is they call it.  I'm not up on that terminology)

 

So I'm kind of thinking that getting into the PT programs is not as dependent on the undergrad school as one might be led to believe.  There may be SOME grad schools that write off SOME undergrad places, but I suspect it's not a universal thing.  Yes, she probably wants to go someplace solid as an undergrad, but it probably doesn't need to be "flagship" or anything like that.  There are a lot of places that are solid that are kind of under the radar as far as us parents knowing about them.

 

If you question the undergrad school about grad school acceptance rates, a decent place will not only tell you what their rates are but also all the support they devote to that.  At the school where I work, for example, they've got several people whose sole responsibility is getting students into grad school and undergrad research summer programs that will make them look more attractive to grad schools.  They're running GRE workshops and all sorts of things to make students aware of the opportunities.  And this is a pretty small LAC with very little grad program to speak of itself.

 

[flyingiguana]

Yes, start asking questions.

 

My graduate school had a list of schools that they rejected no matter what the GPA and GRE's were. They would tell the person to start non-degree and take three specific classes, and then they would reconsider. This was an "upper middle" state school with a national reputation for that particular department.

 

When I had my interview there, the chairman of the graduate program looked at my undergraduate school and GPA, and said, "You're in. Now let's talk about what you want to focus on here."

 

Ironically they had a requirement to take the GRE that I didn't even have at that point, but it was waived with the stipulation that I take it the next time it was offered so that my application was "complete." So I did that after the fact.

 

Would you mind sharing what area that was?  I'm wondering if this is more common in the humanities, for example.

 

My own experience is in the sciences.  Back when I was in grad school I was on an admissions committee for a time.  There were applicants from some fairly "podunk" places (at least, it seemed that way to me) that no one questioned the credentials of.  (This was a fairly top notch school doing the admission)  My impression was that there were so many TAships that had to be filled that there was not a huge amount of selectivity.  A decent GRE score and GPA, the ability to speak English (in front of a class), and letters of rec that didn't raise red flags were pretty much all it took.  Even those people that looked doubtful for some reason or other might still be admitted to the masters program with no support.  But those students still managed to get support by applying for lower paid research positions in other areas.  And once they did ok in their classes, they were given doctoral support.

 

But kids I know recently who have been looking into applying to grad school in the humanities have had a much harder time of it.  Basically, they've been discouraged from even submitting an application because support levels are so low.

 

[Gwen in VA]

The college NEEDS to be a reasonably academically strong college, but after that you never know.

 

Dd went to a SMALL top-20 LAC with NO history of sending people into engineering. Yes, it has a 3-2 program with RPI, but that's the only mention of the word "engineering" on the website!

 

Dd had amazing internships, amazing recs, and stellar grades and got into the #2 engineering program in her field in the country. (There is one other student in her entering class of 26 who didn't attend a hard-core engineering school!)

 

So is it possible to be a trail-blazer, to go where no one from the college has gone before? YES! Is it challenging and less likely -- YES! (If she had known she would want to go into engineering, she wouldn't have attended that college!)

[elegantlion]

Would you mind sharing what area that was?  I'm wondering if this is more common in the humanities, for example.

 

But kids I know recently who have been looking into applying to grad school in the humanities have had a much harder time of it.  Basically, they've been discouraged from even submitting an application because support levels are so low.

 

 

Two history programs I've looked at so far point blank told me they do not fund MA students. They fully fund those that enter their MA/PhD or just PhD program, but terminal MA students are not. This is not something found commonly on one school's website. I'm speculating that is something I'll see in other programs as well. 

 

 

As to the original OP, I'm also looking at grad school (I'm an older student). My biggest undergraduate asset so far has been my advisor, I also consider him my mentor. He is helping me maximize opportunities to get into a decent program, including overseeing my honor's project, offering special classes, and helping us get to conferences in our field of interest. Will this all make a difference? He has one student graduating this semester for whom he has done a similar track, I'm anxious to see where she'll get accepted as our history department is small and not really the ideal department if you want to study my area of history. 

[JanetC]

What type of graduate school? It makes a difference. The humanities is very different from "big science" which is different from applying to medical school and so on.

[G5052]

Yes, start asking questions.

 

My graduate school had a list of schools that they rejected no matter what the GPA and GRE's were. They would tell the person to start non-degree and take three specific classes, and then they would reconsider. This was an "upper middle" state school with a national reputation for that particular department.

 

When I had my interview there, the chairman of the graduate program looked at my undergraduate school and GPA, and said, "You're in. Now let's talk about what you want to focus on here."

 

Ironically they had a requirement to take the GRE that I didn't even have at that point, but it was waived with the stipulation that I take it the next time it was offered so that my application was "complete." So I did that after the fact.

 

Yes, it was a STEM field at a research-oriented state university. I was working full-time anyway and didn't need the support, but all of their graduate students either were TA's or had research positions. At the time they accepted about 1/3 of those applied there who had the right degrees and GPA's. So somewhat selective but not super-difficult to get into. 

 

I'm sure that it does really vary, which is why you have to ask. I would never assume on such an important decision.

[daijobu]

It sounds like she's interested in grad school for physical therapy?  Yes, speak with anyone and everyone you can.  

 

Call the grad schools that interest her and ask from which undergraduate schools do they accept applicants.  In their current class they admitted, what schools are they from?  

 

For the undergraduate colleges she's considering, call the departments of the majors she considering (is PT a major?) and ask where their students are attending PT grad school.  

 

Speak with PT professors and PT practitioners, preferably recent grads.  Ask about the inside scoop on admissions.  Which schools to attend and what you need to do to succeed.   Are their separate programs for masters and PhD in PT?  Ask which program is better suited to your dd's goals.  

 

I don't know anything about PT (except for my old knee injury), but I'm guessing that applying to PT grad school is going to be very different from, say, getting a masters in civil engineering or a PhD in English, or a PhD in chemistry.   It's never too early to start asking around.  

[plansrme]

I would ask the PT programs in which she might be interested and also go online to look at the educational credentials of the PTs at a bunch of local practices.   I suspect that you will see some trends there.  PT program requirements are going to be completely unlike a master's program in English or a Ph.D. program in math.  I think you really need PT-specific information and stats.  You might want to try the admissions page for DPt programs around you.  I looked at this for one of my daughters a couple of years ago because another daughter was working with a PT who had graduated from there.  My impression at the time was that it didn't actually matter all that much (if at all) where you'd gone to undergrad.  The DPt programs themselves, by and large, are not at schools with super-competitive undergraduate programs.  In Georgia, for instance, Georgia State and the University of North Georgia are the ones that I see mentioned regularly.  They're fine schools but are hardly pseudo-Ivies.

 

As for whether it's too early to be thinking about this, absolutely not.  It's never too early to plan.   

[Crimson Wife]

I'm an aspiring speech & language pathologist and SLP grad programs have similar acceptance rates to DPT. I had an informational interview last year with the head of the Communicative Disorders department at one of my target schools while I was in-town for a workshop (the school doesn't normally do informational interviews but the lady who ran the workshop arranged it for me). My 1st degree is from Stanford and the department head said that as long as my GRE scores (hadn't taken them at that point) and GPA from the 2nd bachelor's were strong (I'd just started), that made me a competitive applicant.

 

So the reputation of the undergrad school *DOES* matter somewhat, but OTOH there isn't a ton of financial aid available for professional degrees so I would hesitate to turn down a free ride just to attend a more prestigious undergrad.

 

One option she could consider to save money is seeing if there is a PT Assistant degree offered at a community college and then working for an employer who offers tuition reimbursement to finish her education. http://www.ptbc.ca.gov/applicants/pta_schools.shtml

[hopskipjump]

After doing more research, it even seems that where she gets the grad degree doesn't matter so much. Apparently, since everyone has to take the same test at the end... if you pass... then you're set to go. Networking and recommendations are far, far more important in the grand scheme of things. So finding a program that has a 100% (or close) pass rating that is affordable is more important than a prestigious undergrad or grad school for this particular career.

 

Interesting!

 

It's different from what I learned about getting an engineering degree (which is the direction she's been heading for two years...).

 

Thanks everyone for the input. It's very appreciated!!

[Crimson Wife]

If PT is anything like SLP, then graduates of any accredited program who earn national certification will find work somewhere. But competition for the post-graduation, pre-certification, clinical fellowships is intense and CF pay can vary widely (to the tune of $30+k better for the year for more lucrative settings). Some universities are going to have stronger reputations than others when placing graduates into CF positions.

 

I don't know enough about PT per se, but when I look at the bios for the PT's who work at Stanford Children's Hospital, they all went to "brand name" universities like UC San Francisco, Columbia, Duke, Emory, USC, BU, etc. Much more so than the SLP's listed as working at the same hospital (who tended to attend state schools except one who is a Purdue grad).

[hopskipjump]

If PT is anything like SLP, then graduates of any accredited program who earn national certification will find work somewhere. But competition for the post-graduation, pre-certification, clinical fellowships is intense and CF pay can vary widely (to the tune of $30+k better for the year for more lucrative settings). Some universities are going to have stronger reputations than others when placing graduates into CF positions.

 

I don't know enough about PT per se, but when I look at the bios for the PT's who work at Stanford Children's Hospital, they all went to "brand name" universities like UC San Francisco, Columbia, Duke, Emory, USC, BU, etc. Much more so than the SLP's listed as working at the same hospital (who tended to attend state schools except one who is a Purdue grad).

 

OK - post-graduation clinical fellowships hadn't entered our minds yet (I mean, she knows about them, but we hadn't considered their place in making those connections and networking and having to apply for those positions!). So. Much. To. Think. About! :svengo:

 

The only grad schools she's looked at so far are Baylor and Boston University. We'll dig through the websites of some of the "dream job" places (she wants to work with children or athletes) and see what schools we find in the bios and compare that info with what we find at places where she wouldn't ideally want to work. That's a great idea to get some "real" perspective.

 

Looks like any of those schools will accept her undergrad as long as she has a high GPA and GRE score, and excellent recommendations... so for the undergrad portion it still looks like she could pretty much go "anywhere" for that degree without much difference in the end.

 

Some of the grad schools have work-agreements with the city (Clemson, iirc... the state pays for the last two years of the DPt program and you work in their school systems for two years afterwards), or the military (Baylor's program is through the Army and the Navy, iirc). She plans to be a graduate assistant coach while getting the grad degree, so that should help pay for the grad degree as well.

 

Lots of different paths to get to the same end, it's looking like. Which is very good. Choices are good. :thumbup1:

Edited January 16, 2016 by hopskipjump

[daijobu]

 

 

Lots of different paths to get to the same end, it's looking like. Which is very good. Choices are good. :thumbup1:

 

Isn't it fun to plan and imagine where she might be in a few years?  Good for you both!  

[elegantlion]

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