Woodland Mist Academy Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 Given that discussions of the presidential elections are forbidden on the boards, I was surprised to find out they are happening in at least one Well-Trained Mind Academy Class. Perhaps I was mistaken in presuming they would be forbidden in the classes. The political fervor will only intensify as 2016 progresses, so as I make plans for next semester and the fall, I'm curious to know if these discussions will be allowed and encouraged in all the classes. If so, I'll know to make alternate plans. Anyone else care to share if political discussions are taking place in your teen's WTM Academy class? Feel free to PM me. It would be helpful to know if this is an anomaly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan Wise Bauer Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 (Cross-posted, since the OP cross-posted into two forums as well.) As the owner of the Academy and the host of this board, I'm probably the right person to address this. This board and the Academy classes serve very different functions. These forums are, essentially, unmoderated public debates. Yes, we delete spam and egregious nastiness, but your posts aren't viewed before they go up. Unmoderated, anonymous, online forums are a terrible place for reasoned, intelligent public debate about politics. Political discussion is banned on these boards NOT because we at TWTM think that politics is unimportant (political discussion is central to any democracy), but because the unmoderated, anonymous, faceless nature of the forum has proven to be unsuited to good political debate. Political discussions here inevitably have spiralled downward into ad hominem attacks, straw man arguments, etc., etc., etc. Because I moderate content single-handed (I have some wonderful helpers on the spam front, but it's proven best for me to address other content issues), I can't cope with the ill will, fanaticism, ignorance, nastiness, etc., etc., etc. that erupts (on ALL sides) whenever political discussions begin. However, politics has been central to the teaching of literature, history, rhetoric, and philosophy since the ancient Greeks (at least). A look at the reading lists in TWTM and TWEM will make this completely clear. Political discussions carried on in the classroom, between people who are not anonymous, under the guidance of a teacher who prevents ad hominem attacks (etc.), are central to good education. The Academy has no official political stance. You should not feel that students are being "indoctrinated" into a particular political point of view. If you do feel that this has happened, you should address (probably in this order): the teacher; our Academic Dean, Julia Kaziewicz (julia@welltrainedmind.com); and the Headmaster, Steve Otto (steve@welltrainedmind.com). But there is no way that American history, or rhetoric, or American literature of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries can be responsibly taught without some mention of politics. Hope that makes sense. SWB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodland Mist Academy Posted December 28, 2015 Author Share Posted December 28, 2015 (X post) It makes perfect sense. Thank you. I agree with you! That said, I am already in the process of following the order you have outlined and will continue to do so as far as needed. I'm seriously considering withdrawing my daughter from the class she is currently in and am concerned about taking more classes through the Academy, thus my question about the experience others are having in their classes. Thanks, again! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodland Mist Academy Posted December 29, 2015 Author Share Posted December 29, 2015 (edited) I think my use of the term "discussion" was a misleading one. Discussions would bother me far, far less. This is the history/rhetoric realm; discussions are expected. Edited December 29, 2015 by Woodland Mist Academy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodland Mist Academy Posted December 29, 2015 Author Share Posted December 29, 2015 I think my use of the term "discussion" was a misleading one. Discussions would bother me far, far less. This is the history/rhetoric realm; discussions are expected. One-sided political commentary and derogatory remarks would have been more accurate. Discussion was a poor word choice. What I'm referring to are brief asides during class which have a loose connection to what is being studied. The comments are not supported with detailed facts, and they are not fully explained to students who don't follow the news. Those students who do follow the news may well have arrived at a different conclusion. It should not be presumed everyone in the class has the same opinion. The derogatory remarks about the candidates AND their supporters are made by the students AND the teacher. The teacher is supposed to moderate the students, who moderates the teacher? In many ways little comments here and there are worse than bold speeches because they don't seem bad enough to make a stand against. Yet small derogatory comments over many, many months add up. Students who disagree are put in a position over and over whether or not to go against the flow of the other students AND the teacher. For students who do not know enough to make an informed decision, the decision is well on its way to being made for them as these one-sided comments settle in their minds. My daughter actually agreed with the first comments she brought to me. She did, however, disagree with how they were presented in class and wondered how students who did disagree must be feeling. In contrast to her experience in this class, my daughter has a class with another provider in which she has enjoyed the sharing of different perspectives. She has learned not to make presumptions about beliefs because some of the students have opinions different from what she would have expected. She has also enjoyed trying to ascertain the teacher's stance. Thus far, she hasn't been able to. The teacher has neutrally guided and moderated. The students have respectfully discussed. What a gift and what a lesson in what is possible. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted December 29, 2015 Share Posted December 29, 2015 One-sided political commentary and derogatory remarks would have been more accurate. Discussion was a poor word choice. What I'm referring to are brief asides during class which have a loose connection to what is being studied. The comments are not supported with detailed facts, and they are not fully explained to students who don't follow the news. Those students who do follow the news may well have arrived at a different conclusion. It should not be presumed everyone in the class has the same opinion. The derogatory remarks about the candidates AND their supporters are made by the students AND the teacher. The teacher is supposed to moderate the students, who moderates the teacher? In many ways little comments here and there are worse than bold speeches because they don't seem bad enough to make a stand against. Yet small derogatory comments over many, many months add up. Students who disagree are put in a position over and over whether or not to go against the flow of the other students AND the teacher. For students who do not know enough to make an informed decision, the decision is well on its way to being made for them as these one-sided comments settle in their minds. My daughter actually agreed with the first comments she brought to me. She did, however, disagree with how they were presented in class and wondered how students who did disagree must be feeling. In contrast to her experience in this class, my daughter has a class with another provider in which she has enjoyed the sharing of different perspectives. She has learned not to make presumptions about beliefs because some of the students have opinions different from what she would have expected. She has also enjoyed trying to ascertain the teacher's stance. Thus far, she hasn't been able to. The teacher has neutrally guided and moderated. The students have respectfully discussed. What a gift and what a lesson in what is possible. This sounds to me like an issue with a particular teacher/class, not with WTM Academy as a whole. I hope you are able to resolve things through the discussion/complaint procedures you have initiated, it may come down to no more than a less experienced teacher not knowing how to moderate this type of discussion (not sure I would know how!) My dd is taking the Study Skills class and there has been no political discussion at all. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodland Mist Academy Posted December 29, 2015 Author Share Posted December 29, 2015 (edited) . Edited January 8, 2016 by Woodland Mist Academy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted December 29, 2015 Share Posted December 29, 2015 It seems hasty to write off the entire Academy if you have not completely followed the process outlined by SWB and have not gotten replies yet. You might want to keep in mind that this is holiday time as far as your expectations on turnaround for replies. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodland Mist Academy Posted December 29, 2015 Author Share Posted December 29, 2015 It seems hasty to write off the entire Academy if you have not completely followed the process outlined by SWB and have not gotten replies yet. You might want to keep in mind that this is holiday time as far as your expectations on turnaround for replies. Pardon? I have felt no need to detail the history or timeline of events or what is happening behind the scenes. This thread is mainly to gather information before I decide about future classes. The timeline in which I do so is a personal decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brehon Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 My two eldest kids are each taking two classes at TWTMA and in exactly none of them has anything occurred like what you described. I agree that derogatory ad hominem asides are not appropriate; however, if this is your dd's only class at the academy, I don't really see how you can write off an entire school/program based on one teacher's behavior. So, FWIW, my family's experiences with the academy have been overwhelmingly positive and there has been no political talk at all in any of their classes. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butter Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 My daughter is taking 4 classes and she cannot recall a single instance of current politics or politicians being mentioned in her classes. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodland Mist Academy Posted December 30, 2015 Author Share Posted December 30, 2015 I appreciate the input about the classes. Thank you! Thus far, I am reassured by what I have heard on this thread and elsewhere. In regards to my making the decision as to whether or not to continue with the Academy... I am trying to gather information. Sometimes I ask if classes are workshop model or not. Sometimes I ask if evolution is presented as a given. I ask LOTS of things. My current question is regarding political commentary in the classes. It is as valid a question as the others. I gather information knowing that it will inform my decision. If ALL the class were workshop model, I would enroll my dd elsewhere. If evolution was presented as one of many equally valid possibilities, I would enroll my daughter elsewhere. If one-sided political commentary is encouraged or allowed in all the classes, I will enroll my daughter elsewhere. I am seeking information. If anyone has a better way of finding out what goes on in the classes than asking the parents of the students in the classes, I would love to hear it! To be honest, the commentary on how and when I should make personal decisions is a little off-putting and reeks of what I am hoping to avoid in classes. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodland Mist Academy Posted December 30, 2015 Author Share Posted December 30, 2015 (edited) Edited: My thoughts have changed. Edited January 8, 2016 by Woodland Mist Academy 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melmichigan Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 (edited) Just an update lest people think there is an issue where one doesn't exist. The main purpose of this thread was to seek information as we continue in the political season and the time approaches to start making decisions about upcoming classes. I think my concerns were perhaps not only isolated to a class, but they were hopefully themselves isolated occurrences. At this point, no information I have gathered leads me to believe otherwise. I encourage anyone who has questions or concerns about anything related to the classes or the Academy to contact the people SWB lists in her post above. As stated in my previous post, I ask LOTS of questions. The Academy has always been quick to answer and to discuss concerns. This situation has thankfully received the same prompt response and attention. Edited to remove content. Thank you for bringing up the topic. Edited December 31, 2015 by melmichigan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idnib Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 I checked with DS and he told me nothing like this has occurred in his class. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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