What would these "symptoms" suggest to you? Please help!

[destinyohio]

Hi everyone!  I'm fairly new here, but I've been actively searching past posts and following new ones.  Such a wonderful resource here!

 

We have no idea where to turn next for help.  I've done so much reading...dyslexia, dyscalculia, ASD, etc...and I just can't pinpoint what it might be.  I'm hoping some of you can suggest what we should do next.

 

About DD:

-7YO, turning 8 in a couple of months

-loves arts/crafts/drawing

-doesn't seem to have any motor issues...does ballet, better than typical balance

-around children she is very typically social, but adults she doesn't know well she will hide behind me (although this can be normal IMO)

-does fine with (and enjoys) memory work (like CC to music)

-can read words at or above grade level

-her handwriting is very legible...even asked to learn cursive at age 6

 

Symptoms we've noticed:

-very sensitive (clothing especially...has to be certain lengths, materials, etc)

-always puts her tongue out when she is concentrating...maybe this is typical?!?!

-not wanting to read books with more than a couple sentences on a page

-at the library she'll still only pick up Level 1 or 2 readers, even though she is capable of higher

-still reversing b and d, sometimes p and q and g

-still struggles with left and right

-STILL trying to work through basic addition facts

-with addition facts...she has +0, +1, 2+2, 3+3 down OK, but all the others it's like she might know them one day, but not the next

-I never feel that she "gets" the math

-has a hard time with what comes before with numbers and months...for example, she can say the months Jan-->Dec, but when I ask her what comes before say July...she would say "August", then I say "no BEFORE"...either she won't respond, will give me a random number, or I can see her saying the months from the beginning

-for basic addition facts she doesn't know she will still count on her fingers (like 4+3 or 7+4)

 

Here's what we've seen/been told so far...

-First assessment this spring, well-respected homeschool assessor in our state (PhD) "discovered" convergence insufficiency.  Dev Ophthalmologist diagnosed mild case.  Did VT and was told she is better than typical now.

-An assessor a month ago mentioned "right brain" and she has "directional" issues.  But wasn't much of a help with what to do next or what we can do to help her.

-We thought the VT might have solved the "symptoms" we noticed, but it has not.  Honestly, I haven't noticed a change before and after VT.  Something is still going on and I can't put my finger on it.  A few have suggested to "wait it out" or "not to worry, she is young".  And honestly, I don't feel like we're pushing her.  But knowing her, we KNOW something is off.  But with such mild symptoms, I don't know where to turn next.  She is clearly frustrated as well.  I feel terrible for her.

 

 Do any of you have any ideas what this sounds like?  And what do we do next?

[Paige]

She does sound very mild. My DD had a number of similar issues at that age, but I think it was a little more involved. How are her spelling and reading comprehension? Choosing lower/easier materials seems to be a confidence issue and more of a personality trait than a sign of any LD.

 

With the math, if you aren't already, I'd get her some cuisenaire rods right away to use with her addition and just let her use her fingers if she wants. The counting and befores and afters, however,  really reminded me of my DD. I had a hard time understanding how she could count, but not tell me what came before. It took me MUCH too long to realize she had no trouble understanding what came before or after. Her problem was that she didn't know what I was asking for when I asked for before or after, kwim? It was a vocabulary issue. Since I've been more careful about making sure she understands the words I'm using to ask my questions (or the words in the text) and to also be sure that she knows the meaning of the words I use when I try to explain the words she doesn't know, she's really improved. At 7 and 8, DD had a significant problem really understanding prepositions. It sounds weird, but before, after, next to, etc...I don't think she really understood the difference. 

 

Edited November 24, 2015 by Paige

[Alessandra]

I like developmental pediatricians, because they look at the whole child. Imo, hospital based is best, as ped can call on a team of specialists who are used to working together. You would have to have access to a hospital with a children's division with all the specialists.

 

Our regular ped emphasizes that each speciality will have a slightly different point of view. It is more productive to get a team assessment vs your carrying paper reports from one office to another.

[PeterPan]

Hey fellow Buckeye!   :)  There's a "well-respected phd homeschool assessor" in our area who refers people to an opthamologist who does VT.  Is that where you did VT?  Just asking, because you might like to do your follow-up visits with the *other* major VT place in town.  

 

It sounds like you need an OT eval.  If you get a full psych eval, you may end up with an ADHD label, and you may or may not have some SLDs in the mix as well.  You DEFINITELY need the OT eval.  They can work on the sensory issues, the bilateral issues, etc.  My dd had that mix.  Better to start now than wait, because it's not going away.  

 

You're not *saying* things that scream ASD right now.  Girls present differently, but it's also just that there's a variety of sensory issues plus ADHD that is *not* ASD.  My dd is like.  Totally not spectrum with her, but she's crazy sensitive.  She actually has borderline figure/ground.  Like last night at the political rally, and even just while waiting in line (where it was not very noisy at all, just people standing and building noise) she couldn't hear me talking.  I took her to the university to get her screened for CAPD, and she was 1 point from failing and needing the full test.  Thing is, that figure/ground, for her, was the only issue.  They said relative weakness, accommodate, move on, skip foreign language if possible.  

 

Anyways, that rabbit trail is to say if you're near that university, they do hearing evals and will run the SCAN3 for just $35.  It's *possible* that you've got some language issues underlying the reading.  I'm saying sensory doesn't explain the reading.  Since you seem to think her decoding is age and IQ-appropriate, then that's what you go to, some kind of language or attention explanation.  That language testing can be done by a neuropsych or an SLP. 

 

Have you done achievement testing on her yet?  It's normal to have a gap between what they can decode and what they pleasure read.  So to decode on a 3rd grade level and pleasure read 1st grade level would be common, totally normal, expected.  Achievement testing can give you a quick picture of what's going on.  A psych will run IQ, achievement testing, etc. and read the tea leaves.  If SLDs are a question, the best way to get thorough information is to go with a neuropsych.  I can recommend a couple if you are where I'm thinking.  If not, just google.  

 

Definitely get the OT.  The OT may run an EF screening tool like the BRIEF or your ped can do it.  Basically though for the rest you're wanting a psych eval to sort out if it's ADHD, learning disabilities, and what you can do about it.  Getting detailed testing will help you teach her better, and there's really not a reason to wait, except for money obviously.  I wish I had had my dd tested at that age.  I didn't because I let some secretary on the phone talk me out of it.  (Oh, it's expensive, you don't need that!)  We ended up doing our testing at 12, after lots of water under the bridge.  Don't make that mistake.  Test now.

Edited November 24, 2015 by OhElizabeth

[PeterPan]

Just quickly, you have the right to go through the ps and get evals.  They won't be super thorough necessarily, but you can.  They can run achievement, IQ, a CELF5 (that language testing), maybe do an APD screening, do an ADHD screening, etc.  A private neuropsych will run more, but the price is right through the ps.  In Ohio you have the Jon Peterson disability scholarship, and if you go through the ps and get an IEP you can apply for it.  That window is Feb-March 2016, and you have just enough time now to go through the IEP process and get it done.

 

If you want a private eval first, you have time to get private neuropsych and OT evals *and* go through the IEP process. The ps will *not* give you an IEP just for OT, but they *will* for ADHD sometimes (OHI-minor), SLDs, etc.  

 

A developmental ped will probably have a longer wait and be with a hospital.  That, to me, seems like overkill for ADHD and possible SLDs.  You would need insurance for that, because around here the hospitals bill at $350 an hour.  Private for the same types of services (neuropsych) are $220.  Still a lot, but that's a significant difference if you're paying for it, oy.  

 

So if you realize oh I want the JP, then don't get bogged down on some 3-4 month waiting list for a hospital psych or whatever.  You'll want to be careful of the timelines for the process.  Just depends on what you've got going on. 

[kbutton]

I think I would start with SLP/language testing (something that tests receptive/expressive language), OT, and then go from there. Our NP testing told us that my son is all over the map, but will not look at causes past ADHD. Since he is diagnosed with CAPD and has receptive language issues, I had hoped for something concrete that I could use to move forward, and I did not get that from the NP evaluation. We have had better luck going with a clinical psych that runs tests "as needed" (follow the breadcrumbs). 

 

There is a large Christian school in one part of Ohio that will run a lot of psych testing for a VERY inexpensive price, and you don't have to be a student here. PM if you are interested. I am not sure if they can legally create an IEP, which is important if you want to use the state scholarships. However, it would give you information, and you might be able to use that testing to go through the ETR/IEP process with your local district. We did not go that route because we had other options that I knew would be ironclad with the schools here.

[texasmama]

Most of the things you mention seem within the norm for a kid this age.  I do hear some "red flags" for something but I don't hear enough for ASD.  I hear some anxiety in not wanting to read books at her reading level and hiding behind you.  It may be mild but affecting her somewhat.  

[PeterPan]

And the anxiety would go with the sensory and ADHD stuff.  

 

There are some OTs who do neurofeedback, which can help with anxiety.  We're using an OT who does Zengar neurofeedback.

[destinyohio]

She does sound very mild. My DD had a number of similar issues at that age, but I think it was a little more involved. How are her spelling and reading comprehension? Choosing lower/easier materials seems to be a confidence issue and more of a personality trait than a sign of any LD.

 

With the math, if you aren't already, I'd get her some cuisenaire rods right away to use with her addition and just let her use her fingers if she wants. The counting and befores and afters, however,  really reminded me of my DD. I had a hard time understanding how she could count, but not tell me what came before. It took me MUCH too long to realize she had no trouble understanding what came before or after. Her problem was that she didn't know what I was asking for when I asked for before or after, kwim? It was a vocabulary issue. Since I've been more careful about making sure she understands the words I'm using to ask my questions (or the words in the text) and to also be sure that she knows the meaning of the words I use when I try to explain the words she doesn't know, she's really improved. At 7 and 8, DD had a significant problem really understanding prepositions. It sounds weird, but before, after, next to, etc...I don't think she really understood the difference. 

Her spelling is very phonetic still.  BUT we haven't worked specifically on spelling yet either (trying to get the reading, writing, and arithmetic down first).  The phonetic spelling is easy to understand though.  And she's beginning to get words like "was" correct.  I would say her reading comprehension is very good.

I do have cuisenaire rods.  We've been trying to use MUS, thinking to help her "see" that 7 is made of 7 individual things.  Do you think the rods might make a difference?  I do have the Miquon orange book and the First Grade Diary.  I tried it last year, but my brain does not work that way :).  Maybe I need to dig into it deeper.  I'm going to ponder the vocabulary thing...I'm curious to see if it's just number related or not.  Because I'm thinking if I've asked her about a sequence in a story she was able to tell me what happened before X.  Hmmmm...

[destinyohio]

I like developmental pediatricians, because they look at the whole child. Imo, hospital based is best, as ped can call on a team of specialists who are used to working together. You would have to have access to a hospital with a children's division with all the specialists.

 

Our regular ped emphasizes that each speciality will have a slightly different point of view. It is more productive to get a team assessment vs your carrying paper reports from one office to another.

 

I will have to look into this.  I hadn't heard of development pediatricians yet.  Thanks!

[destinyohio]

Most of the things you mention seem within the norm for a kid this age.  I do hear some "red flags" for something but I don't hear enough for ASD.  I hear some anxiety in not wanting to read books at her reading level and hiding behind you.  It may be mild but affecting her somewhat.  

 

Thanks for your thoughts!  I agree, that most of it could be "normal" for her age.  I would probably wait a little longer to investigate if it weren't for her frustrations.  That, and just my gut feeling that something isn't quite right.

[texasmama]

I think you are wise to listen to your gut.  

[PeterPan]

Her spelling is very phonetic still.  BUT we haven't worked specifically on spelling yet either (trying to get the reading, writing, and arithmetic down first).  The phonetic spelling is easy to understand though.  And she's beginning to get words like "was" correct.  I would say her reading comprehension is very good.

I do have cuisenaire rods.  We've been trying to use MUS, thinking to help her "see" that 7 is made of 7 individual things.  Do you think the rods might make a difference?  I do have the Miquon orange book and the First Grade Diary.  I tried it last year, but my brain does not work that way :).  Maybe I need to dig into it deeper.  I'm going to ponder the vocabulary thing...I'm curious to see if it's just number related or not.  Because I'm thinking if I've asked her about a sequence in a story she was able to tell me what happened before X.  Hmmmm...

You've probably got some learning disabilities going on, honestly.  Is this your first dc?  Is her achievement typical of other family members or what you'd expect based on probable IQ?  The level of achievement you're describing got my ds SLDs in all three areas (math, reading, and writing) in K5 based on discrepancy.  Since your dd is 2nd grade, turning 8, and not able to subitize 7, spell was, and sequence, then you've got some issues going on.  Time for evals.

 

The OT eval is for the sensory.  The neuropsych eval is for SLDs and anything else going on.  You definitely want to get this sorted out.  If this is your first dc, you may not realize where kids *should* be and end up sort of floating along like oh she's so little, oh it's my fault as a teacher, oh it will happen eventually.  If she is almost 8 and has been worked with diligently with sensible, typical curriculum, and this is where she is at, she needs evals.

 

PS.  For math, you need to get Ronit Bird.  More powerful than MUS.

 

PPS.  Did she have speech issues?  And am I understanding you correctly that she would struggle to retell a simple story (a favorite movie, a book you just read her) or to tell you what happened before x?

Edited November 24, 2015 by OhElizabeth

[PeterPan]

I think you are wise to listen to your gut.  

 

Yup.  I've said this, but I let someone blow me off when my dd was that age, telling me evals were $$$, don't bother.  Years later, after LOTS of frustrations, we finally got them.  What you learn in the evals is much more detailed than just a disability label.  Even if there's no SLD, you're going to learn processing speed, relative weaknesses, find things like language problems or working memory issues or other things to work on.  You don't know what you'll learn, but what you learn will definitely make you a better teacher when you figure out what to DO with the information.

[Incognito]

Have you read anything about visual spatial talents?  Linda Silverman has a book - Upside Down Brilliance - that focuses on them.

 

For the math, is it that she doesn't understand that 7 is 7, or that she doesn't memorize the addition tables?  So she always has to do the 3+4 to get there?

 

[1shortmomto4]

Well, when I read the list I see Visual Spatial/Right Brain but I'm partial because I've got one of those learners.  Very artistic, very sensitive and emotional.  Tags on shirts, seams that are itchy.  If she is indeed VSL/RB then reading is delayed a bit but they do read and can read but they don't want to read.  Just for experimental sake (say, while waiting to get an appointment to be sure nothing is going on), find some cartoon-style/graphic novel books - at this age look in the comic book section of the library and there are some sweet ones with animals and have your dd just read them for pleasure.  See if she connects with the story this way and can tell you once she's worked through the book see if she can tell you what happened in the story.  I wouldn't be surprised if she was able to tell you the whole story without prompting.

 

For math - if, indeed, she is VSL then memorizing math facts is like finger nails on a chalkboard - just not going to happen.  Oh, they get stronger over time but they'll never beat the timer.  I'd be curious to see if you get better results reading through some math storybooks and learning concepts that way for awhile.  Mathstart books come to mind or even Life of Fred.  When you use the manipulatives does she tend to invent stories with them and lose track of the lesson?  I might be inclined to work things on a white board using manipulatives but don't hold back on math topics.  VSL kiddos can learn algebra before they understand multiplication and division.  These learners are hard ones to teach because you've got to have a huge bag of tools to pull from.  They get bored easily, don't need drill - once learned it is in their mind for good.

 

Just a few rambling thoughts.

[destinyohio]

You've probably got some learning disabilities going on, honestly.  Is this your first dc?  Is her achievement typical of other family members or what you'd expect based on probable IQ?  The level of achievement you're describing got my ds SLDs in all three areas (math, reading, and writing) in K5 based on discrepancy.  Since your dd is 2nd grade, turning 8, and not able to subitize 7, spell was, and sequence, then you've got some issues going on.  Time for evals.

 

The OT eval is for the sensory.  The neuropsych eval is for SLDs and anything else going on.  You definitely want to get this sorted out.  If this is your first dc, you may not realize where kids *should* be and end up sort of floating along like oh she's so little, oh it's my fault as a teacher, oh it will happen eventually.  If she is almost 8 and has been worked with diligently with sensible, typical curriculum, and this is where she is at, she needs evals.

 

PS.  For math, you need to get Ronit Bird.  More powerful than MUS.

 

PPS.  Did she have speech issues?  And am I understanding you correctly that she would struggle to retell a simple story (a favorite movie, a book you just read her) or to tell you what happened before x?

 

This is my first child.  Her achievement is not typical based on what I would have thought...comparing her to herself, not some "ideal".  Does that make sense?

She does not (and has not) had any speech issues.  And, let me clarify because maybe I was a little confusing...she CAN spell was correctly but something like "first" she would spell "frst" or "favorite" would be "favrit".  I think that is typical...still spelling phonetically!?!?  Her handwriting is totally legible.  

For reading...her comprehension seems on par and she CAN narrate a story back to me in proper sequence and answer questions such as "what happened before the character did this?"

As far as the math...she can add 3+4 but would usually use her fingers...like she knows to put the 4 first, then would use 3 fingers to say 5,6,7.  Having addition and subtraction on the same page throws her for a loop.  Oh...and for a while we tried the missed addend...FORGET it...totally confused and REALLY frustrated her.

 

Does any of that help?

[destinyohio]

Have you read anything about visual spatial talents?  Linda Silverman has a book - Upside Down Brilliance - that focuses on them.

 

For the math, is it that she doesn't understand that 7 is 7, or that she doesn't memorize the addition tables?  So she always has to do the 3+4 to get there?

 

I just picked up this book but haven't read it yet...Visual-Spatial Learners by Alexandra Shires Golon.  I will check out or interlibary loan the Silverman book!

 

As far as the math...she can add 3+4 but would usually use her fingers...like she knows to put the 4 first, then would use 3 fingers to say 5,6,7.  Having addition and subtraction on the same page throws her for a loop.  If I say show me 7 of some object, that isn't a problem at all.  Oh...and for a while we tried the missed addend...FORGET it...totally confused and REALLY frustrated her.

[texasmama]

This is my first child.  Her achievement is not typical based on what I would have thought...comparing her to herself, not some "ideal".  Does that make sense?

She does not (and has not) had any speech issues.  And, let me clarify because maybe I was a little confusing...she CAN spell was correctly but something like "first" she would spell "frst" or "favorite" would be "favrit".  I think that is typical...still spelling phonetically!?!?  Her handwriting is totally legible.  

For reading...her comprehension seems on par and she CAN narrate a story back to me in proper sequence and answer questions such as "what happened before the character did this?"

As far as the math...she can add 3+4 but would usually use her fingers...like she knows to put the 4 first, then would use 3 fingers to say 5,6,7.  Having addition and subtraction on the same page throws her for a loop.  Oh...and for a while we tried the missed addend...FORGET it...totally confused and REALLY frustrated her.

 

Does any of that help?

For what it's worth (which is probably not much), I have a bright, completely neurotypical 10 yo dd who does not grasp math concepts.  She still has not memorized all of her multiplication tables, and she will still not understand the concepts in spite of many years of me trying, using cuisenaire rods, different math curricula, etc.  I had to ditch Singapore math and put her back a level in CLE math, which does not make her cry.  You would not believe the lengths I have gone to in order to teach fractions, and we have really just scratched the surface.

 

I do not think little dd has an LD.  She seems to be a mini me.  I am a language arts beast, with no LD's or ADHD.  I am as neurotypical as they come.  I have a masters degree in a humanities field.  But math slayed me for my entire school career.  In testing, I was significantly lower in math scores than language arts scores.  I was smart enough to compensate and to be able to memorize formulas and muddle through with almost no conceptual understanding.  Little dd is also a language arts beast.  And she remembers complex facts about science.  She is taking a dissection class at co-op meant for middle schoolers.  She is two years younger (at a minimum) than the other kids, and she is doing well.  She remembers complex organ names and can identify them.  She has dissected a pigeon, a fetal pig, and a shark, among other things.  

 

Some folks are just heavily weighted in one area versus another, and it works out okay for us.

 

I will say that the misspellings your dd makes bother me on some level.  I do not have a child with dyslexia, but none of my kids made those sorts of misspellings at that age.  I don't know if that is within the norm or not.  Other folks with better knowledge in this area will need to chime in on that.

[PeterPan]

What I was specifically honing in on was your comment about her being able to say there's a 1 or a 2 inside of a 7.  That's called subitizing, and it's an aspect of a math disability.  Merely not having facts memorized, no biggee.  Not having strategies, that's the math curriculum.  But if you've taught her with a math curriculum that uses visualization strategies (MUS, RightStart, Miquon, etc.) and she's still not *subitizing* when she's almost 8, there's a problem.

 

I totally agree that just straight memorization of stuff can take time and vary with the kids.  It's like when ADHD kids can't spell and dyslexics can't spell, but there are degrees of can't spell, some of which go along with dyslexia (which will have ADHD as well 60% of the time) and some of which gets you a well of course that happens because ADHD kids are crunchy.

 

I haven't met your dd.  The reason I keep saying ADHD is because in girls it won't look like you think.  Nobody meets my dd and thinks ADHD.  Doesn't mean it's not happening.  It's more of a hindsight thing, like oh that's why she...  But just to meet her, you won't think that.  The other reason I keep mentioning ADHD it goes pretty commonly with the sensory and anxiety issues.  But, you know, you just get the evals and let them sort it out.

 

Worst case scenarios is no evals, no sorting it out, and when she's about 10 or 12 you go WOW we're frustrated, now it's time.  Better to get them now and have them say nope and exclude things as not happening, kwim?  And you know some things are just relative weaknesses.  They don't have to get a clinical label to be significant enough that you need the right words for what's going on and need to clear the air and get some better strategies, kwim?  

[almondbutterandjelly]

Just a thought on the "before" thing... my visual spatial learner did not understand "before" until I made it visual.  We had a number line posted on the wall.  When I indicated that" before" meant on the left side (and I pointed because of course some kids don't know left from right well yet), and "after" meant on the other, the right, side, she understood.  This would also work if you had a poster of the months of the year and indicated that "before" was above in the list and "after" was below (since months posters typically list them vertically).

 

HTH!

[Incognito]

It sounds like you could use some strategies for math and spelling.  Math - what I've done with my child like that is 1st - Life of Fred, 2nd - Beast Academy + Rod and Staff 1 minute drills a grade behind (to practice the facts).  The drills take way longer than a minute, but que sera, sera.  There are a lot of online games for free too, for fact practice.  I wouldn't let that hold back your math learning (or make you think she can't handle more).  FWIW, for my child like that multiplication came easier than addition (and a nice skip counting song helped).

 

Spelling - it looks like she doesn't know about r-controlled vowels?  There is a lot to learn in spelling.  A couple of curricula that tend to work with a child like you have are Sequential Spelling and Spelling You See.  You can take a look at them and see if they might suit you.

 

Somehow prepositions sound confusing to her - perhaps you could do a unit on them, draw pictures for them, etc.  Make them come alive.

[Heathermomster]

OP, welcome to the boards!

I agree with OhE 100%. To sort out sensory, you will need to find a SIPT certified OT. To sort out the possibility of a maths SLD, your child will need to see a PhD Neuropsych. We use the term NP on the boards.

My eldest was diagnosed with dyscalculia on his 8 th birthday. He actually had his math facts to 20 down; otherwise, his issues compared to your DD's sound about the same. My younger child turns 8 yo after Christmas. She is completely different and works on multiplication facts for fun. The difference between my kiddos in the maths department is shocking.

I have found no magic math program though there are some I dislike more than others. I apply concepts learned from Ronit Bird to whatever curriculum we are using. Maybe look at CLE math materials.

My DD's reading level exceeds her ability to spell, and I think that is typical. Can your child spell a word like favorite after a week of practice?

Edited November 27, 2015 by Heathermomster

[abacus2]

The only thing that you list that would cause me concern is the math struggles. I would seek an evaluation about that. The other things you list are normal, but mommy gut sometimes feels things that are hard to articulate.

[geodob]

You wrote: 'We've been trying to use MUS, thinking to help her "see" that 7 is made of 7 individual things.'

 

But it is actually the opposite to this?

Where she doesn't concieve of 7 as that sized group, of individual things.

So that when she counts with her fingers?

5 is the name of the finger, next to the finger called 4.

Their is no sense of adding this finger to the group of 4.

To form a larger group of 5.

Or a sense of groups within groups.

Where 7 can be formed from different sized groups.

 

Though you also wrote that she 'still struggles with left and right'.

Which could be related to her math difficulties?

As she might not concieve of left and right, as opposing points?

 

Our conception of left and right as opposing points, is fundamental to our conception of math.

Where we concieve of 0 zero, at the mid-point, between our eyes.

With this mid-point set.

The brain uses the left as a direction to locate and concieve of 'less than' and before.

Then uses the right side and direction, to concieve of 'greater than' and next.

 

Though we concieve of these opposing sides with Spatial thinking.

What Spatial thinking provides, is the ability to set a point on either side?

Then create divisions within it.

Our conception of time, with seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months, years is an example of this.

As well as numbers of course.

So that we 'add to the right', and 'subtract to the left'.

 

But if one doesn't concieve of these opposing points and directions, to the left and right?

Before and next, smaller and larger, can't be concieved of, in relation to each other?

Also the concepts of addition and subtraction, can't be concieved of?

 

Where I would highlight the difference between a 'difficulty with learning math', and a 'difficulty with concieving of math'?

Also how it could be approached in different ways?

One being to try different ways to 'learn math'?

The other being, to try different ways to 'concieve of math'?

 

Where it would seem logical to first develop a way to concieve of math?

In this regard, I might note the traditional Japanese approach to math?

Where they avoid teaching children the names and symbols for numbers, until around 9 years of age.

So that the focus is on learning to 'concieve of math'.

I would also note that typical 8 year old Japanese children, have the math abilities of typical 12 year Western children.

The only difference, being a focus on concieving of math, rather than learning math.

 

While different ways of 'learning math' are discussed here.

Their is little discussion of different ways of 'concieving of math'?

[Kat w]

I'm going to chime in here to second what geodob said ( much good information in the other replies too) but my 11 yo has perplexed me and we have some of the same issues you are having and then some.

 

What has completely blown me away, jus speaking what I have experienced with my child, is this:

 

He is 11, cannot remember 5+4, despite daily practice cannot tell you one single multiplication fact, before and after....forget it. Like geodob mentioned. Mine cannot accurately tell you the months of the year and like your lil one , one day will seemingly know something , the next day have no clue. We have the sensory issues too.

 

Here's the thing:

Like geodob said, move on with higher math reasoning to ' get' math...but....I tried Singapore pm. ( I'm guessing thsts the type of math geodob is referring to) and I started 2 levels below( no # sense here) and as he started to work on simple place value and overall number send.... He started shooting off with accuracy the months of of he year, before and after, ( they have you work on counting backwards in Singapore , even with thousands etc) .

He could start to make more sense of beginging middle and end of a short read aloud passage ( which had elluded him until we tried Singapore ).

 

I would vote to try it. It doesn't seem like it would work with a struggling learner of any sort but in our case IT DID. I could not even believe it.

Alot of times, you just have to try alot of different things, even if it seems way over their head.

 

You never know what will work till you try.

 

I agree evals and private and as OhE says....the university is a great option and you have a team of specialist at your fingertips.

 

We did private in the beginning but at a children's hospital not at the university teaching hospital. I had to abandon private therapies and assessments after awhile due to financial reasons.

Then we went the public school route . that helped but, they won't always test for what mommy guys tell us...they have a tendency to be the ' wait it out types'. Never do this. Wait it out is bad imho.

 

Try Singapore. It won't hurt and I have alot of levels I wouldn't mind loaning you to see if it works. I can ship it to you and when you're don with it, jjs ship it back . If finances allow maybe purchase it, the resale in those are pretty good. But I would be more than willing to loan a l

Edited November 29, 2015 by Kat w

[Kat w]

I would be more than happy to loan a level to you if purchasing it is cost prohibitive for you :)

Edited November 29, 2015 by Kat w