Benefits of Latin?

[bibiche]

DS has mentioned an interest in taking Latin, but he already has a very full schedule. He speaks (and studies) two Romance languages and dabbles in a third. Are there benefits to learning Latin that he wouldn't get from his current language study? I'm thinking there s currently not time enough to do all the things he wants to do, but if someone wants to really sell me on Latin, by all means...

[Laura Corin]

As background: I studied French and Latin at school and learned Mandarin later.  My boys learned Mandarin by immersion, then studied Latin, then French.

 

Latin is hard: Calvin is a bright guy, but I had him translating English to Latin orally, and he would screw up his face with the effort of keeping everything in his head.  It's much more complex than French.  So the challenge was worthwhile for him: he needed to work through something that tough.  Not everyone needs that.

[bibiche]

I appreciate your input, Laura. Thank you. Has Calvin also studied Greek? I studied Latin but not Greek, so I am clueless there. I was thinking of encouraging Greek rather than Latin but maybe Greek would not have the same brain stretching qualities..?

[Bratsche]

Good question.  My understanding is that studying Latin along with a Romance language will make learning subsequent Romance languages a whole lot easier.  (For the most part the base word stays the same, it's just the ending that changes with the language.  Latin teaches the basic structure.)  So if you learn, for instance French along with Latin, you can pick up Spanish of Italian well enough to read in a very short time.  I'm not sure if it would help nearly as much if you already speak two Romance languages, though.   Perhaps for more formal or academic grammar?

 

My oldest is studying Latin and Greek.   My younger kids have wanted to follow along, but I've found that just learning the Greek alphabet is a challenge.  

[aprilleigh]

I have to disagree with Laura on one point. I found Latin much easier to learn than French. I've had similar exposure to both languages, but I'm much more capable in Latin than I ever was in French, although I'm certain I'd relearn French skills much faster having studied Latin than I would have from simply having studied French before.

 

Both have advantages and disadvantages. French is a living language and, as such, is full of colloquialisms that a non-native speaker may never fully understand, BUT it means the language is both relevant to the modern world and possesses a vocabulary similar to English in scope. It also lets us practice with real French speakers and immerse ourselves in the language. It's ready availability in the modern world makes French an ideal language to study for both fluency and international citizenship.

 

Latin, on the other hand, is a "dead" language. It has no modern vocabulary, no native speakers for immersion-style study, and no direct correlations for some of the vocabulary. It does, however, have a static vocabulary and clearly defined grammar rules that don't change when the next generation appears. The exceptions are known and detailed in most Latin grammars and dictionaries. The unchanging nature of the language (beyond those changes that have already occurred as a matter of the language's history) makes it an ideal language to study for methodical, logical language skills and translation, not to mention opening the whole world of Latin literature to independent study without relying on someone else's translation.

 

That said, I'd let the child study Latin, but warn him that with such a full schedule he may have to make some tough choices in the near future - up to and including dropping at least one language to make room for the rest.

[Laura Corin]

I appreciate your input, Laura. Thank you. Has Calvin also studied Greek? I studied Latin but not Greek, so I am clueless there. I was thinking of encouraging Greek rather than Latin but maybe Greek would not have the same brain stretching qualities..?

 

Calvin studied Greek one summer with a teacher from school: a brilliant enthusiast who taught C and a friend of his for free.  I'll ask C how Greek and Latin compare.

[happypamama]

Sometimes studying two Romance languages is confusing, LOL! I studied French for several years in high school and Italian in college; now I am learning Spanish and have been studying Latin for several years alongside my daughter. The similarities are helpful, but sometimes they are juuuust close enough to be confusing. I do think Latin is easier than French (and Italian and Spanish in between).

 

But, reasons Latin has been good for us, other than learning word roots and such. Probably the biggest is the organization and logic skills it has taught. The case endings make sense, generally. There's a process, always the same steps to follow. Why does this word have this ending? Follow the process. It's a puzzle, but we practice logic by working through the puzzle systematically. It's fascinating when we crack the puzzle. I love languages, and so does my daughter (and part of the reason that we keep doing Latin is because it's one of the few things we both love, so it's been a source of bonding between two very different personalities, which has been a nice thing to have during the adolescent years), so we enjoy solving those puzzles together. (However, she is faster than I am and will eventually leave me in the dust, I think.)

[Laura Corin]

I appreciate your input, Laura. Thank you. Has Calvin also studied Greek? I studied Latin but not Greek, so I am clueless there. I was thinking of encouraging Greek rather than Latin but maybe Greek would not have the same brain stretching qualities..?

 

I asked Calvin - he said that Greek was harder: different alphabet; weird grammar.

[bibiche]

Sometimes studying two Romance languages is confusing, LOL! I studied French for several years in high school and Italian in college; now I am learning Spanish and have been studying Latin for several years alongside my daughter. The similarities are helpful, but sometimes they are juuuust close enough to be confusing.

I agree completely! Often I try to speak one language and the other comes out.  DS is a heritage speaker, however, so manages to avoid these pitfalls for the most part. :)

 

 

 

I asked Calvin - he said that Greek was harder: different alphabet; weird grammar.

Harder and weird - I think we have a winner!  Thanks for taking the trouble to ask Calvin (whose academic prowess I admire). :)

 

DS plans to go have a conversation with someone in the Classics department of a nearby university to get her opinion as well.  Thanks for all the helpful advice, everyone.

I appreciate your input, Laura. Thank you. Has Calvin also studied Greek? I studied Latin but not Greek, so I am clueless there. I was thinking of encouraging Greek rather than Latin but maybe Greek would not have the same brain stretching qualities..?

 

Greek is much, much harder than Latin.  The alphabet is only about 1% of why it is harder, though.  A little-known fact about Latin is that it has a relatively small vocabulary, and so much of the grind of learning a language is memorizing vocabulary, and there is just a lot more of it in Greek than in Latin.  Moreover, my experience is that there isn't a lot of nuance in translating most Latin words -- their English meanings are straightforward.  Greek words, though have a lot more color and specificity to their definitions, and thus are harder to learn and really understand, which is why Greek was the language of philosophy.  The Greek grammar is much more complex than Latin, especially non-Koine greek dialects, with the aorist tenses and duals and particles and all kinds of constructions that Latin (or English) doesn't have.

 

However, what really makes Greek so hard to learn, especially before college, is a lack of good textbooks.  There is now an embarrassment of good high-school level Latin texts you can use, but I'd be hard pressed to think of a single good high school level Greek textbook that I could honestly recommend.

[Bluegoat]

I wouldn't compare learning Latin to Greek.

 

If he speaks the two Romance languages quite well, he will probably find Latin fairly straightforward.  He may find it easier to pick up other related languages after that - my friend who was fluent in Latin and French for example picked up Italian easily by watching Italian news and reading newspapers. 

 

I would say the main benefit though is really to be able to read Latin.  If he has any interest in studying European history at a more advanced level (including things like science, law, or medical topics in history), or theology, having Latin will be a help - he will need to learn it to pursue those things at a scholarly level, even if it is just a hobby.

[Reefgazer]

LOL to the bolded.  That is what I do when I try to translate Latin!  I look like my brain is on fire!

As background: I studied French and Latin at school and learned Mandarin later.  My boys learned Mandarin by immersion, then studied Latin, then French.

 

Latin is hard: Calvin is a bright guy, but I had him translating English to Latin orally, and he would screw up his face with the effort of keeping everything in his head.  It's much more complex than French.  So the challenge was worthwhile for him: he needed to work through something that tough.  Not everyone needs that.

 

[Reefgazer]

The benefits for my kids have been:

 

1.  Teaches a more precise attention to detail, because the Latin language requires it.  This has carried over into other subjects and has been the biggest benefit, IMO.  My DD had some very sloppy and careless habits when she left public school, and Latin cleaned those up in less than a year.

 

 

2.  It will enrich their vocabulary.  No separate vocabulary or grammar program needed; and no grammar-cramming for college entrance exams because your child will have the background in Latin to handle those stems and roots.

 

3.  High school credit for a foreign language that I can handle teaching without having to outsource ( at least until the upper translation levels).

 

4.  When your child gets far enough along in Latin, they can read foundational literature of western civilization in the original language without a filter and without needing translation.

 

5.  Provides a good foundation for the study of modern Romance languages.

[Reefgazer]

My Ds wants to learn Greek, but the paucity of a good text that I can teach and learn along with him gives me pause.  I might have to outsource that one.

Greek is much, much harder than Latin.  The alphabet is only about 1% of why it is harder, though.  A little-known fact about Latin is that it has a relatively small vocabulary, and so much of the grind of learning a language is memorizing vocabulary, and there is just a lot more of it in Greek than in Latin.  Moreover, my experience is that there isn't a lot of nuance in translating most Latin words -- their English meanings are straightforward.  Greek words, though have a lot more color and specificity to their definitions, and thus are harder to learn and really understand, which is why Greek was the language of philosophy.  The Greek grammar is much more complex than Latin, especially non-Koine greek dialects, with the aorist tenses and duals and particles and all kinds of constructions that Latin (or English) doesn't have.

 

However, what really makes Greek so hard to learn, especially before college, is a lack of good textbooks.  There is now an embarrassment of good high-school level Latin texts you can use, but I'd be hard pressed to think of a single good high school level Greek textbook that I could honestly recommend.

 

[Reefgazer]

I also found Latin easier to learn than French.  I'm not sure if it was the structure of the language or the method of teaching Latin that appeals more to me (I learn best with a grammar-first approach to a language), but Latin was much easier.

I have to disagree with Laura on one point. I found Latin much easier to learn than French. I've had similar exposure to both languages, but I'm much more capable in Latin than I ever was in French, although I'm certain I'd relearn French skills much faster having studied Latin than I would have from simply having studied French before.

 

Both have advantages and disadvantages. French is a living language and, as such, is full of colloquialisms that a non-native speaker may never fully understand, BUT it means the language is both relevant to the modern world and possesses a vocabulary similar to English in scope. It also lets us practice with real French speakers and immerse ourselves in the language. It's ready availability in the modern world makes French an ideal language to study for both fluency and international citizenship.

 

Latin, on the other hand, is a "dead" language. It has no modern vocabulary, no native speakers for immersion-style study, and no direct correlations for some of the vocabulary. It does, however, have a static vocabulary and clearly defined grammar rules that don't change when the next generation appears. The exceptions are known and detailed in most Latin grammars and dictionaries. The unchanging nature of the language (beyond those changes that have already occurred as a matter of the language's history) makes it an ideal language to study for methodical, logical language skills and translation, not to mention opening the whole world of Latin literature to independent study without relying on someone else's translation.

 

That said, I'd let the child study Latin, but warn him that with such a full schedule he may have to make some tough choices in the near future - up to and including dropping at least one language to make room for the rest.

 

[Dawn E]

At least two online programs--Lukeion and Classical Resource Learning Center (CLRC)--use Athenaze for high school Greek. I used Athenaze when I studied Greek in college. My dd takes it through CLRC and loves it. She is also taking Latin but prefers Greek. That may be due in large part to Mrs. Van Fossen, her teacher.

At least two online programs--Lukeion and Classical Resource Learning Center (CLRC)--use Athenaze for high school Greek. I used Athenaze when I studied Greek in college. My dd takes it through CLRC and loves it. She is also taking Latin but prefers Greek. That may be due in large part to Mrs. Van Fossen, her teacher.

 

Athenaze is one of the few Greek textbooks, and it uses the reading method ("whole to parts"),  but the problem with the reading method it espouses is that you really need an expert at hand to help you get unstuck.  More importantly, I've found it easy with these reading methods to kind of understand something by context, and gloss over the actual grammatical lesson being taught, and not actually learn something important.

[bibiche]

Athenaze is one of the few Greek textbooks, and it uses the reading method ("whole to parts"),  but the problem with the reading method it espouses is that you really need an expert at hand to help you get unstuck.  More importantly, I've found it easy with these reading methods to kind of understand something by context, and gloss over the actual grammatical lesson being taught, and not actually learn something important.

 

Do you have suggestions for other textbooks?  Upper age level would be fine, since you've indicated that there are no good books for lower level.   I am sure we would have to get a tutor or take a class in any case, but maybe I can check them out in the meantime. TIA!

Do you have suggestions for other textbooks?  Upper age level would be fine, since you've indicated that there are no good books for lower level.   I am sure we would have to get a tutor or take a class in any case, but maybe I can check them out in the meantime. TIA!

 

 

"Learn to Read Greek", by Keller and Russell is a serious, complete, college-level text, with lots of examples.  Not nearly as fun as Athenaze, but it is so complete, I think it may be easier for people without access to a Greek scholar.  You can download the first few chapters from the book's webpage at: http://yalepress.yale.edu/book.asp?isbn=9780300167719to get a feel for it.

[ScoutTN]

I asked Calvin - he said that Greek was harder: different alphabet; weird grammar.

I agree.