An odd question......masters in a subject when pursuing a PhD in a different field?

[8filltheheart]

My dh and I are completely ignorant about the whole grad school scenario, so we are out of league when ds shares his plans.  I was wondering what those of you who do know about the grad school process think of this plan.

 

Ds told us he is getting ready to start studying for the GRE b/c he can earn his masters while using his 4 yrs of scholarship $$. (There is a special scholars program that enables students to earn their masters as an undergrad. He just has to make a certain score on the GRE to get into the program.)  I'll come back to that in a sec.

 

He is currently double majoring in physics and math.  He only has 2 physics classes left for his physics degree.  He only has 4 math classes left for his math degree. 

 

Ok....the masters.  He is thinking about earning his masters in math. BUT....it is 100% clear that he wants a PhD in physics.  I understand his logic, but I don't know that that makes it the right path.   Here is what he is thinking.  He believes that the stronger his math background, the better his ability to do the physics he wants to do.  The path to the masters in math is pretty straight-forward.  He does love math, but this choice is about the utility of math, not a career path.  He is passionate about physics.  But....he isn't clear about exactly what path he wants to take for his PhD.  He sees now as his opportunity to really explore as much as he can about the different fields of physics so that he knows exactly what he wants to pursue.  Right now he is very much drawn to particle physics. He loves astronomy, but wonders about it as a career.  He wants to be able to have a job in a field he really loves.  I know there is one field he said he definitely does not want to pursue, but I don't remember which one it was now. (I really don't understand physics at all!  Most of this conversation is like listening to Charlie Brown's teacher.  You are getting the part of the conversation I did understand! ;) ) I do know he is thinking in terms of what he does and doesn't want to go into in grad school.

 

I have echoes of a conversation we had with one of the deans last yr when we were touring schools.  Ds had asked what current undergrad grads were doing.  The dean shared the story of a student who had double majored in math and physics and when he applied to grad schools, he was turned down by all of them bc they said they weren't convinced that physics was his true calling.  In this case it was b/c the student had a 4.0 in his math major and not in his physics major.

 

I am not worried about the GPA thing being at all an issue with ds.  He is maintaining insanely high grades in all of his classes.  What I do wonder is if he applies to grad schools and he has a masters in math and not physics, does that send the same sort of message?  He says he doesn't think so b/c he can explain that the math is simply the tool he wanted for his physics.  I just don't want him to make this decision and then it ultimately hurt his real dreams.

 

FWIW, all of his research will be in physics, so that will be there demonstrating his commitment to physics.  He is now part of 2 different research projects, both are related to particle physics (beyond that the only thing I understand is that one has to do with neutrinos.)

 

Making this decision will also help stretch out graduation to a total of 4 yrs.  Otherwise, he will more likely end up graduating in 3. (He could easily graduate in 3 semesters from now and complete both doubles, but his research honors program requires at least 6 semesters to complete and 3 more semesters is a semester short.)  I'm not sure if and how any of that factors into grad school applications.  (he doesn't either.) 

 

Clear as mud?? Does any of it matter or am I over-complicating what to him seems like a win-win decision?

 

 

[Teachin'Mine]

I have no knowledge of graduate programs and all, but if the only concern is grad schools wondering if his true passion is physics, then he has nothing to worry about as his research, classes and performance in the classes makes it very clear that that's where his passion lies.  It must have been different for that other student.  What are his professors and advisors advising?   It makes sense to me, and may increase employment options, but I know nothing about this.   If he'd be taking the courses anyway, why not get the degree.

[8filltheheart]

Part of the problem is that his advisor right now is in the electrical engineering dept.  He originally thought he would earn his EE degree in the process as a back up plan for solid employment.  He has been wavering on that decision.  He hasn't formally dropped EE as a major, but that is where this entire conversation is coming from.  EE classes were going to be the classes he took while he spent time doing undergrad research and taking the physics classes that interested him.  He is thinking that instead of EE, he would rather pursue the masters in math.  He hasn't spoken to anyone in the physics dept about his idea.  (Ugh...I know! )

 

Earlier he had wanted to add a math research project.  He did end up speaking to the undergrad advisor in the physics dept  the dean of the honors college (he just corrected me) about that idea and that dean told him that he thought it would be a mistake, so he didn't pursue that and added the 2nd physics project instead.

[MomatHWTK]

I think he'll get somewhere with whatever he learns, and it is WAY to hard to predict now what a school is going to want later.  This may be his last change to learn fo rthe sake of learning (rather than paying the bills), let him enjoy it. KWIM? 

[Teachin'Mine]

I can't imagine why a math research project would be a mistake.  He wouldn't have done it in place of physics research, but in addition to it.  For an unbiased opinion, could he talk with his math and physics professors where he did his dual enrollment?   One of the things I could see a masters in math opening up is the option to teach high school math or physics.  May not be his direction at all, but with the way employment ebbs and flows in different fields, it's never a bad idea to have multiple options.  All of this is just my opinion.  Maybe he could speak with someone in the math department there for their take on it all.   And another idea is for him to contact some physics graduate programs and see what those professors think of his idea.   I'm sure Regentrude and her husband would be able to give their opinions too.

[8filltheheart]

Yes, I am hoping that Regentrude and some others who have gone through the grad process will chime in. I do know being a math teacher is not something he wants to do. Contacting his mentor from the university here is a good idea! Thanks for that suggestion!

[regentrude]

Yes, I am hoping that Regentrude and some others who have gone through the grad process will chime in. I do know being a math teacher is not something he wants to do. Contacting his mentor from the university here is a good idea! Thanks for that suggestion!

 

I would contact the graduate admissions people at the departments of grad schools he is interested in. I suspect that there may be some variation from school to school, depending on tier of school.

We at our department would be thrilled to have a strong applicant with a physics BS and a math Masters! But I suspect your DS will be shooting for a higher caliber grad school.

 

I have a hard time imagining the math Masters to be detrimental. The crucial factors for grad admission are the GRE and undergraduate research experience. If I understand you correctly, he has all that and the math Master would be an extra add-on. I can't see this being bad - but please check with the graduate admissions committees at his choice of schools.

 

ETA: I have not "gone through the grad process", because I received my degree in Germany ;-) Different system.

[maize]

My sister did something similar to what you describe, earning a Masters concurrent with her Bachelors degree then going on to a PhD in a field more closely related to the Bachelors. It was not a problem at all for her.

 

Anecdotal I know...

[Cosmos]

Well, my experience is from many years ago, but I was a double math/physics major. Early on I leaned toward physics, and did summer research programs and worked with a professor in physics projects. Later my interest switched more to math and when I applied to graduate school in math, I had no comparable math experiences. Despite that, I was accepted to all the graduate programs I applied to, and I don't remember anyone ever asking me suspiciously about all the physics I had done.

[go_go_gadget]

My husband is a physics grad student, and has found that the students who double-majored in math and physics tend to be the most successful because quantum mechanics in particular is very math-heavy, and not just in computational calculus and linear algebra. I find it hard to imagine a grad degree in math being seen negatively unless, as others have said, the math GPA were significantly higher than the physics. If that's not an issue and he's keen to do it, I think it could only be in his favor.

[Teachin'Mine]

My sneaking suspicion is that the physics department may be afraid he may be "won over" by the mathematics department and they'll lose him.  As he's passionate about physics, they don't need to worry, but that's the only thing I can think of.  The example they gave him of the other student really doesn't apply to him at all.  As for another positive to having the MS, even if he doesn't want to teach at a school, should he decide to tutor or work at a gifted math program, or whatever, the masters would be a definite plus while he's working towards his PhD.  If he contacts his mentor and graduate professors, please let us know what they say.  I'm curious!

[regentrude]

My sneaking suspicion is that the physics department may be afraid he may be "won over" by the mathematics department and they'll lose him.

 

It may vary from school to school, but at least at our university, being admitted into a graduate program is decided by the department ; the student is not admitted into  a general  "grad school" where he could freely select his major.

[laughing lioness]

Contact the grad school he wants the Ph.D. from, make personal connections in the Ph.D program and find out directly from them, especially if it's a small dept. Can he take the GRE in both subject areas? 

[Lawyer&Mom]

His story would be very credible. "Instead of graduating in 3 years, I decided to take the opportunity to gain additional math skills to facilitate my future graduate work in physics."

 

Makes perfect sense to me.

[Teachin'Mine]

It may vary from school to school, but at least at our university, being admitted into a graduate program is decided by the department ; the student is not admitted into  a general  "grad school" where he could freely select his major.

 

Yes, I'm referring to his undergraduate physics department being "afraid" to lose him to mathematics.  As far as from the little I've learned there and here, there really isn't so much an admissions department for graduate schools so much as the department and individual professors who choose whom they want to take on as graduate students to assist them in their research and guide them in their research as well.   Again, no first hand knowledge, so my "understanding" may be completely wrong.

 

ETA that with the above I'm referring to PhD programs.  I think that for masters as a terminal degree, students may go through graduate admissions  together the specific department, but again I have no specific info on this.

 

In other words, I agree with you that the department chooses who to admit into PhD programs for the specific field of study.

[8filltheheart]

Thanks everyone. He just sat down and read everyone's responses. He feels confident this is a good path. He is going to talk to some of his mentors, but he thinks go_go_gadget's dh's experience affirms his decision.

[G5052]

I can't imagine why that combination would be a negative, but you never know about graduate programs.  

 

A friend of ours was turned down for a STEM graduate program because they said that he had "too many outside interests" in addition to his almost straight A's and stellar references.  They said that he wasn't serious about his studies because he played lacrosse and volunteered with disadvantaged youth.  

 

So he worked for a year, and reapplied.  And was accepted with a full research assistantship at that college!  They actually apologized to him some time after he started there for not accepting him the first time.

 

I had double B.S. degrees in math and computer science, and did my graduate program focused on algorithms and theoretical computer science.  The math/C.S. combination was essential to that and was exactly what my first employer was looking for.

[Butler]

I'm going to go against the grain here and say that obtaining a Masters in math is probably not the best course of action for someone with an end goal of a physics PhD. Physics grad schools are going to be interested in physics courses. Math, albeit a necessary and related field, is not physics. Obtaining a masters in math is not going to show that all consuming commitment necessary for doctoral work in physics.

 

Will the graduate courses for the Masters cost extra? Graduate studies, especially in STEM are funded. It wouldn't make financial sense to pay extra for a math Masters. Even if his scholarship covers the extra cost, keep in mind that he may be eliminating some future funding options for his PhD down the road. NSF doesn't grant fellowships to holders of graduate degrees (unless in some cases if it is a joint BS/MSc program offered by the school - would this be the case for your son?)

 

I think he would be better served taking higher level (preferably graduate level) classes in physics in lieu of trying to complete a math Masters. I would look at the math courses necessary for a physics graduate degree and take those. Not all of the math courses necessary for a math Masters are going to be applicable to graduate studies in physics. ( I think that would be preferable to double majoring also.)

[sbbulliv]

I would think that a math master's wouldn't hurt, but the time would be better spent finding an area of passion in physics. Particularly by doing a (publishable?) thesis senior year. Even if not the ultimate area of passion- now is the time for depth rather than breadth.

[Crimson Wife]

I have a bunch of friends who did co-terminal master's degrees in one field and PhD's in different-but-related fields. Not every department at our university offered a co-terminal master's. So it was fairly common to settle for one in a related field because the actual area of interest didn't offer it. Like my friend who did the co-term in sociology because there wasn't one in organizational psychology (what she ended up getting her PhD. in)

[8filltheheart]

I hadn't even considered having his masters impacting his getting funding for his PhD. Is that typical?

 

He will be taking astronomy and grad level physics classes starting next yr. There is no additional cost. All of the courses are covered with his scholarship money. His honors research program is also focused on helping them publish research as undergrads.

 

The biggest concern is how it impacts a PhD program......I was thinking in terms of acceptance, but apparently financial considerations also need to be investigated.

[EmilyGF]

Just asked hubby and he said it wouldn't hurt him. Any top tier place would not dock his funding due to a masters.

 

As for EE, that would really help if he wanted to build any instrumentation... just sayin'. If he wants to be a theorist, math is great, too. 

 

 

Emily

[8filltheheart]

Just asked hubby and he said it wouldn't hurt him. Any top tier place would not dock his funding due to a masters.

 

As for EE, that would really help if he wanted to build any instrumentation... just sayin'. If he wants to be a theorist, math is great, too.

 

 

Emily

Emily, thank you so much for asking your dh! I really don't understand what it is ds thinks he wants to pursue. He took 2 physics related courses through the EE dept this yr, electromagnetics and electromagnetic waves. That professor became a mentor for ds. He is an older professor who is retiring. He started talking to ds a lot. Turns out that he had always regretted not pursuing his interest, physics, instead of EE. I'm not clear on much beyond that, but I know the conversations did influence his thinking.

 

All I really understand is that ds only has the quantum sequence and astronomy electives left in undergrad courses. And as a rising sophomore, he has a lot of class spaces to fill with whatever he wants to study. If he sticks with EE, his class schedule becomes more controlled. Without EE, his next 3 yrs are wide open to taking whatever he wants. Other than that, I just sit and listen and nod my head.

[Teachin'Mine]

I wonder if it's similar to having dual enrollment credits/AA degree.  Most of the top colleges will accept the student regardless of how many credits, while some less selective ones cap the number of credits permitted.  I would think that any grad credits/masters degree earned while an undergraduate wouldn't affect graduate school acceptance or funding at most top universities.  Maybe it would be an issue at a few, but it should be easy enough to sidestep those if they do exist. 

 

As for a student being rejected for having interests outside of academia, that's ridiculous!  When you read about professors, most have quite a few areas of interest and I can't imagine that they didn't pursue those interests as an undergraduate.   Are they really looking for someone willing to lock themselves away in a lab for several years and forgo having a life?  I guess the answer is probably yes.

[Lawyer&Mom]

I don't know about physics, but I had a bunch of friends from absolute top undergrad schools who got masters degrees in Econ at LSE before starting their fully funded PhDs in Econ at absolute top grad programs. The year at LSE was encouraged as gaining a different perspective before starting their PhDs. Obviously you need to talk to the prospective physics graduate departments, but having a spare masters degree or two doesn't seem that strange for the people I know who are actually professors now. Especially if you will ultimately be admitted to a program that doesn't directly offer masters degrees. (They may give a masters degree to a Phd candidate who doesn't finish, but they don't accept students into a masters program.)

[Grantmom]

So does he plan on going straight into a PhD in physics program?  Or would he then go and get a masters in physics too?  I agree that I would call some graduate schools where he thinks he might be interested in doing his PhD and ask them.  Even if it's not where he goes in the end, just call three or four and get an informal vote.

 

On a related but hopefully not too OT note, please share how you managed to get him to this point as a rising sophomore and already he has time for not just double majoring in two very time intensive majors, physics and math, but also time to complete a masters in math too?  That is awesome!!  I would love to hear more about your experience as my DS is interested in a similar path!

[8filltheheart]

So does he plan on going straight into a PhD in physics program?  Or would he then go and get a masters in physics too?  I agree that I would call some graduate schools where he thinks he might be interested in doing his PhD and ask them.  Even if it's not where he goes in the end, just call three or four and get an informal vote.

 

On a related but hopefully not too OT note, please share how you managed to get him to this point as a rising sophomore and already he has time for not just double majoring in two very time intensive majors, physics and math, but also time to complete a masters in math too?  That is awesome!!  I would love to hear more about your experience as my DS is interested in a similar path!

 

He plans on going straight for his PhD.

 

He started taking college level math and physics courses in high school. (He was advanced in math and took his first alg class when he was 10.)  By the time he graduated from high school, he had already completed 5 of the required physics classes for a physics degree and the equivalent of cal 1 and cal 2 credits from AP BC plus 3 more advanced math classes and the 2 required chem credits from his AP exam.  He is attending a university which accepted all of his credits.  (There were some that he was accepted to that didn't accept credits or only accepted a limited number.)  

[Grantmom]

Wow that is incredible!