Kid who excels at a subject but doesn't love it

[Mike in SA]

Just throwing out some feelers here. It's a sensitive topic that I am a little afraid to broach. This topic is about math, but it really could be about any subject, if you have some experience you would be willing to share.

 

DS13 is absurdly good at math, but has no real love for the subject. His natural pace (and the only one he tolerates) is roughly four courses per year. For us, a course ends with an acceptable level of mastery, and not on an academic calendar, so he really has the material down. He does EVERY problem in most cases. We aren't worried about running out of material, but he will be through multivariate calculus and introductory abstract algebra by the end of 8th. AoPS is running very low. We know this is not normal. But, to him, it's basically just another subject.

 

He has no interest in competition math (it repulses him), and doesn't have any clear favorite branch. Theory is clearly preferred to application, but that's all we can see. I suspect that he's going to be a polymath, with strengths in the humanities, as well as in multiple STEM fields. So, for the time being, we're feeding him lots of discrete and abstract math.

 

Has anyone else experienced something similar? What did you learn, in hindsight? Should we try to foster love for the subject, or just let him hold course, and keep feeding the monster? We don't want to force anything, but we would like to find SOME subject that he can attach himself to.

[oscilatorium]

I would try to figure out what motivates him to do so many math problems if he doesn't love it. If he isn't forced into doing it, then what drives him to work so hard in math without love? (even though he is really smart, I'm sure he still has to put a lot of effort to work every problem in an aops curriculum), so something is driving him. 

 

Coursera and edX have some really great and enjoyable CS courses if that's something he'd find interesting. With a strong discrete math background he could easily pick them up. But I definitely wouldn't push anything, you can never run out of math learning. I would just show him lots of exciting options to explore, and maybe his interest will pick up more. MIT OCW has great courses, if he enjoys self learning. Also 6.041x (probability theory) on edX is fantastic; I have never seen such amazing explanations.

[Mike in SA]

He has an almost OCD need to be challenged by his coursework. He will moan about his work like any other kid, but honestly isn't happy unless he is stretched constantly (he will have anxiety attacks if the material slows down).

 

DW and I both have math degrees, so we can teach comfortably. No issues providing content. He has done a few MIT OCW courses in other subjects, and he's willing to try a CS project next year, after finishing SICP this year. We might try something AI so he can apply his graph theory.

 

It's strange that math is just another subject, but so it is. I doubt he even comprehends how far ahead he is.

[zenjenn]

I can say I know a lot of gifted adults who are engineers and scientists - only some like math for the sake of math. Others only like math as it applies to their areas of interest. To them, saying they 'like math' would be akin to passionate writers saying they are particularly passionate about spelling and grammar (some may be, but it's certainly not a requirement.)

[Lawyer&Mom]

Is he challenged in his other subjects? Would upping the ante in say history allow him to slow down in math? Is he ready for college level humanities texts? I just wouldn't want him to get so far ahead in math that he will always and only be seen as "math person."

[Arcadia]

How is he in his sciences?

My older is actually good at languages but he states that he is only going to master Chinese and German. He wants to consider French after that.

 

I don't find it strange though. There are things that requires no effort from me but I am just not into them. Harp will be relatively difficult for me but I still want to learn that when I have room for a harp.

[Mike in SA]

I can say I know a lot of gifted adults who are engineers and scientists - only some like math for the sake of math. Others only like math as it applies to their areas of interest. To them, saying they 'like math' would be akin to passionate writers saying they are particularly passionate about spelling and grammar (some may be, but it's certainly not a requirement.)

 

This is a wonderful philosophy.  It sounds very much like him.  The application is sort of "intuitively obvious" to him once he has the theory.  This may be the single best explanation I have heard for his perspective.  It would reaffirm the need to start doing projects, to let him "wander around" a bit to see how he can bolt several things together.  Thank you!

 

 

Is he challenged in his other subjects? Would upping the ante in say history allow him to slow down in math? Is he ready for college level humanities texts? I just wouldn't want him to get so far ahead in math that he will always and only be seen as "math person."

 

:001_smile: Funny you should say that.  He loves history, and could probably pass the World, US, and European History AP exams today...  He was reading the Usborne encyclopedias cover-to-cover repeatedly when he was in K-2, and has read a number of college-level texts.  He was our personal tour guide in London! 

 

His workload seems just about right for now.  He's very content for a 13yo.  We'll see what happens when he starts noticing girls.  :wub:

 

 

How is he in his sciences?

My older is actually good at languages but he states that he is only going to master Chinese and German. He wants to consider French after that.

 

I don't find it strange though. There are things that requires no effort from me but I am just not into them. Harp will be relatively difficult for me but I still want to learn that when I have room for a harp.

 

Pretty strong.  He's doing college physics now, and has finished MIT-OCW biology (that one was TOUGH), and will be doing MIT-OCW chemistry next year (I expect another challenge).  He is also a big language buff, and fairly good at it.  He's studying German and Latin, and would pick up Gaelic if given the chance (as a medieval history fan).

 

Thanks, everyone!  I do appreciate the insights.

[Gratia271]

Just throwing out some feelers here. It's a sensitive topic that I am a little afraid to broach. This topic is about math, but it really could be about any subject, if you have some experience you would be willing to share.

 

DS13 is absurdly good at math, but has no real love for the subject. His natural pace (and the only one he tolerates) is roughly four courses per year. For us, a course ends with an acceptable level of mastery, and not on an academic calendar, so he really has the material down. He does EVERY problem in most cases. We aren't worried about running out of material, but he will be through multivariate calculus and introductory abstract algebra by the end of 8th. AoPS is running very low. We know this is not normal. But, to him, it's basically just another subject.

 

He has no interest in competition math (it repulses him), and doesn't have any clear favorite branch. Theory is clearly preferred to application, but that's all we can see. I suspect that he's going to be a polymath, with strengths in the humanities, as well as in multiple STEM fields. So, for the time being, we're feeding him lots of discrete and abstract math.

 

Has anyone else experienced something similar? What did you learn, in hindsight? Should we try to foster love for the subject, or just let him hold course, and keep feeding the monster? We don't want to force anything, but we would like to find SOME subject that he can attach himself to.

.

[Arcadia]

How is he in Music and/or Art :lol:

 

I am asking because a lot of mathematicians seems to be musicians too :)

[Mike in SA]

How is he in Music and/or Art :lol:

 

I am asking because a lot of mathematicians seems to be musicians too :)

 

Meh. :bored:  He plays piano, but it isn't really his thing.  He is definitely not your stereotypical mathematician.  He's more likely to be an author than an artist.

 

DS8, well, that's another story!

[Dmmetler]

Sounds like he'll eventually be an amazing applied mathematician. I know in DH's grad program there was a definite split between the "math is wonderful for math's sake" and the "math is cool and neat because we can use it to do such awesome stuff-see!!" folks. For the most part, the AIME/AMO/Putnam etc folks were the former, and the ones who spent their high school years trying to hack into various servers, build robots, or got in trouble for breaking into the school science lab after hours were the latter (and the latter group often double majored in something like physics, chemistry, computer science or engineering).

 

It's OK to be good at something without being passionate about it. DD is starting to realize that she can't do foreign languages AND literature AND write her blogs AND Science AND math competitions all at the same time-so she's choosing to narrow down to Biology, keep Latin but drop other languages, and for the most part, is only doing competitions for fun, knowing that she's not preparing for them much and that she probably won't place, but it's still a nice way to meet other kids who are academics-minded, but dive into research and also into education, which is leading into writing.

 

 

 

 

[Gil]

A natural facility with and talent for a skill is not an obligation to that skill.

 

There are many uncounted amateur athletes who have what it takes to compete against the "worlds greatest" in X sport or contest and some of those amateur athletes could even win. But they aren't interested in being pro and so they continue to privately train and practice their sport and they feel no obligation to train every.single.day unless they want to train that day.

 

Its okay to be one of the un-sung greats in a field. Especially if that field isn't something you absolutely love.

 

[quark]

Mike, I can relate with everything you wrote about in your OP down to what your DS is finishing and his feelings about competition math with the only exception that mine insists he loves math. I haven't read every single reply but what strikes me...

 

1. What do you think is wrong with your DS being so good at it but not liking it? And what does not liking it mean exactly?

2. Why shouldn't he be a polymath without choosing one area he likes most? It looks like he is amazing at so many things and maybe THAT is what is singular about him?

3. Would reading about people who are very good at many things be helpful for him? I think Feynman was one of those. I am trying to think of who else might be a good role model.

4. If choosing one area continues to feel like it is important, could it be that everything he is doing is becoming too easy for him and hence why he doesn't want to choose an area yet? Yes, he is working at a high level but perhaps he needs something higher in a few areas? You said in #7 that his workload is just right...was this after discussing it with him?

5. On the flipside, do you think he could be working TOO hard and is just burnt out?

6. If you put everything aside for a few days, weeks or even a month...Stop Feeding the Monster...what do you think might happen? What is it that he gravitates towards most when he is not working?

 

Just some questions that I myself think about now and then with a kiddo who sounds so much like yours (albeit kiddo is a bit less of a polymath probably).

[quark]

Oh and one more thing...I have a kid who will turn 13 soon. Hormones are doing their thing over here, not drastically but it's starting (I thought it started at 9-ish, heh heh, boy did I underestimate that one!).

 

Could that be the case also?

[Mike in SA]

A natural facility with and talent for a skill is not an obligation to that skill.

 

There are many uncounted amateur athletes who have what it takes to compete against the "worlds greatest" in X sport or contest and some of those amateur athletes could even win. But they aren't interested in being pro and so they continue to privately train and practice their sport and they feel no obligation to train every.single.day unless they want to train that day.

 

Its okay to be one of the un-sung greats in a field. Especially if that field isn't something you absolutely love.

 

Oh, we totally agree with this.  It just strikes us as a bit odd that the gift is so extreme and so (as yet) uninteresting.  To be fair, though, he has enjoyed symbolic logic.  We caught him reading a Schaum's outline at bedtime once -- he liked the logical fallacies and the crossover with his Latin studies.

 

 

 

Mike, I can relate with everything you wrote about in your OP down to what your DS is finishing and his feelings about competition math with the only exception that mine insists he loves math. I haven't read every single reply but what strikes me...

 

1. What do you think is wrong with your DS being so good at it but not liking it? And what does not liking it mean exactly?

2. Why shouldn't he be a polymath without choosing one area he likes most? It looks like he is amazing at so many things and maybe THAT is what is singular about him?

3. Would reading about people who are very good at many things be helpful for him? I think Feynman was one of those. I am trying to think of who else might be a good role model.

4. If choosing one area continues to feel like it is important, could it be that everything he is doing is becoming too easy for him and hence why he doesn't want to choose an area yet? Yes, he is working at a high level but perhaps he needs something higher in a few areas? You said in #7 that his workload is just right...was this after discussing it with him?

5. On the flipside, do you think he could be working TOO hard and is just burnt out?

6. If you put everything aside for a few days, weeks or even a month...Stop Feeding the Monster...what do you think might happen? What is it that he gravitates towards most when he is not working?

 

Just some questions that I myself think about now and then with a kiddo who sounds so much like yours (albeit kiddo is a bit less of a polymath probably).

 

1. There is nothing "wrong" with it.  It would just be nice to know how others saw things developing in their own experiences.  And, he does like it -- he just has no love for it.  It's just another subject.  What he DOES like is the idea of connecting with other kids like him.  The advanced subjects are just a barometer he might use to categorize other kids into "won't understand me" and "might understand me" groups.  He's an extrovert who has become used to disappointment. :(

 

2. I could probably classify myself as a bit of a polymath, so I wouldn't be a bit surprised by him following that route.  It's why we're thinking about AI as a project (computer science + advanced math + psychology + neurobiology).  It might be fun to see where he leads himself on such an endeavor.  Maybe something comes of it, maybe not...

 

3. Maybe.  He rarely reads bios, but he would be interested in finding others he could identify with.  If it comes down to it, we might contact the UT-Austin Polymathic Scholars department, to get their advice.  Right now, we aren't concerned -- just curious, and looking for ideas.

 

4. He chooses his own course load, but we provide some guidance.  I actively forecast his progress to make sure that he will finish with appropriate downtime.  He actually has quite a lot of it -- more than his friends -- because of the speed with which he works.  Choosing "one course" is not so important, but he will eventually need to choose a general path, even if as a polymath.  Dilettantes don't live as well this century as they did in the 19th century.

 

5. Not a chance!

 

6. He would play video games, start moaning, and end up finding solace in learning something.  Two weeks off is his limit.  He really seems to enjoy learning for learning's sake - a philomath!  :)

 

 

 

Oh and one more thing...I have a kid who will turn 13 soon. Hormones are doing their thing over here, not drastically but it's starting (I thought it started at 9-ish, heh heh, boy did I underestimate that one!).

 

Could that be the case also?

 

Nope, he's been himself since he was little.  It took us until he turned 10 to finally figure out we were holding him back.  When we let him run at his pace, his anxieties started melting away.  We're hoping that hormones help him learn to manage his compulsion to move so quickly.  It would be nice to add a little perfectionism in for good measure. ;)

[quark]

It sounds like you have a good handle of everything Mike. The AI project sounds drool worthy. My questions were the same ones I ask myself too...in my case it is "why should I keep encouraging this love of math...why don't I encourage him to do something else, etc. with ideas like "he is too young to know what he wants right now" constantly running around my head. But that's just how I am. Just wanted to explain that I asked those questions because I am trying to find the answers myself.

 

Good luck!

[Mike in SA]

It sounds like you have a good handle of everything Mike. The AI project sounds drool worthy. My questions were the same ones I ask myself too...in my case it is "why should I keep encouraging this love of math...why don't I encourage him to do something else, etc. with ideas like "he is too young to know what he wants right now" constantly running around my head. But that's just how I am. Just wanted to explain that I asked those questions because I am trying to find the answers myself.

 

Good luck!

Thanks!

 

Those questions sure do sound familiar.

[MBM]

Oh, we totally agree with this.  It just strikes us as a bit odd that the gift is so extreme and so (as yet) uninteresting.  To be fair, though, he has enjoyed symbolic logic.  We caught him reading a Schaum's outline at bedtime once -- he liked the logical fallacies and the crossover with his Latin studies.

 

 

 

 

1. There is nothing "wrong" with it.  It would just be nice to know how others saw things developing in their own experiences.  And, he does like it -- he just has no love for it.  It's just another subject.  What he DOES like is the idea of connecting with other kids like him.  The advanced subjects are just a barometer he might use to categorize other kids into "won't understand me" and "might understand me" groups.  He's an extrovert who has become used to disappointment. :(

 

2. I could probably classify myself as a bit of a polymath, so I wouldn't be a bit surprised by him following that route.  It's why we're thinking about AI as a project (computer science + advanced math + psychology + neurobiology).  It might be fun to see where he leads himself on such an endeavor.  Maybe something comes of it, maybe not...

 

3. Maybe.  He rarely reads bios, but he would be interested in finding others he could identify with.  If it comes down to it, we might contact the UT-Austin Polymathic Scholars department, to get their advice.  Right now, we aren't concerned -- just curious, and looking for ideas.

 

4. He chooses his own course load, but we provide some guidance.  I actively forecast his progress to make sure that he will finish with appropriate downtime.  He actually has quite a lot of it -- more than his friends -- because of the speed with which he works.  Choosing "one course" is not so important, but he will eventually need to choose a general path, even if as a polymath.  Dilettantes don't live as well this century as they did in the 19th century.

 

5. Not a chance!

 

6. He would play video games, start moaning, and end up finding solace in learning something.  Two weeks off is his limit.  He really seems to enjoy learning for learning's sake - a philomath!  :)

 

 

 

 

Nope, he's been himself since he was little.  It took us until he turned 10 to finally figure out we were holding him back.  When we let him run at his pace, his anxieties started melting away.  We're hoping that hormones help him learn to manage his compulsion to move so quickly.  It would be nice to add a little perfectionism in for good measure. ;)

 

Has your son considered a summer math camp? My youngest went to Hampshire and met a whole slew of like-minded math lovers who were interested in other areas as well. His best friend from there went to Harvard, took Math 55 (successfully!), decided to study comp sci, then statistics and is going on a sabbatical to work on a start up idea. He's such a neat kid who loves to learn and is equally good-hearted and funny. The camps seem to have a lot of interesting kids and the people who run them are terrific in so many ways. Kelly at Hampshire really knows how to challenge the kids while also being sensitive to where each one is mathematically and emotionally. (My son almost went to UT-Austin's summer programs as well.)

[luuknam]

DS13 is absurdly good at math, but has no real love for the subject. His natural pace (and the only one he tolerates) is roughly four courses per year. For us, a course ends with an acceptable level of mastery, and not on an academic calendar, so he really has the material down. He does EVERY problem in most cases. We aren't worried about running out of material, but he will be through multivariate calculus and introductory abstract algebra by the end of 8th. AoPS is running very low. We know this is not normal. But, to him, it's basically just another subject.

 

So, he's currently in 7th grade? Since your sig says he's currently doing precalc and did number theory earlier this year.

 

I'd suggest not worrying too far ahead. His pace may slow down. I know calculus was a little confusing for me at first when I was 14. Precalc is really not that far ahead at 13yo.

 

ETA: I was in 10th grade at 14. I skipped 9th grade.

[Mike in SA]

Has your son considered a summer math camp? My youngest went to Hampshire and met a whole slew of like-minded math lovers who were interested in other areas as well. His best friend from there went to Harvard, took Math 55 (successfully!), decided to study comp sci, then statistics and is going on a sabbatical to work on a start up idea. He's such a neat kid who loves to learn and is equally good-hearted and funny. The camps seem to have a lot of interesting kids and the people who run them are terrific in so many ways. Kelly at Hampshire really knows how to challenge the kids while also being sensitive to where each one is mathematically and emotionally. (My son almost went to UT-Austin's summer programs as well.)

 

He likes the idea of MathCamp because of who it attracts and how it is run.  It is an option we are considering for next year or the year after.

 

 

So, he's currently in 7th grade? Since your sig says he's currently doing precalc and did number theory earlier this year.

 

I'd suggest not worrying too far ahead. His pace may slow down. I know calculus was a little confusing for me at first when I was 14. Precalc is really not that far ahead at 13yo.

 

ETA: I was in 10th grade at 14. I skipped 9th grade.

 

It's not that far, but it is still 4 years+, and we only allowed him to start accelerating 3 years ago.  Without a doubt, he'll be through multivariate by EOY next year (he already knows the basics).  Abstract algebra might slow him a bit, but we can already see that it's within his range of ability.  We've got plenty of material to keep him occupied through 12th, as needed.  DW and I insist on working through every theorem (we're both math purists), and the theory gets much harder!

 

Both DW and I started college at 16, so he isn't exactly forging new ground.  We aren't worried, though - just curious about others who have BTDT, and what perspectives they can share.

[ebunny]

Interesting conversation..It's been a personal conundrum . Why don't some children/adults show visible signs of enjoying or being deeply passionate about a topic/subject at which they are outstanding?

 

It's a little bit like my daughter(not yet 10) who excels at most things but she has yet never expressed how she feels about them .Sometimes she looks like she is uninterested while (insert activity), but I surmise she enjoys it, otherwise why would she voluntarily do it and keep doing it?!

 

Without being a reductionist, I wonder if the lack of emotion is because its just her personality, iykwim. The thought of verbally (or non-verbally) expressing their emotions about these particular topics never crosses my daughters mind. Yet, I know she's deeply engaged because she looks centred and refreshed after said work.

 

Since she's high ability across the intelligences, we introduce her to different pursuits (violin, theatre, sports and academics-particularly math and language) at the level of slight discomfort.

I am hoping that in due course, she'll narrow down on one or two areas which could be a possible vocation.

 

ETA: She is not radically accelerated in all subjects/themes in academics, because she is quite vocal about what she is not interested in. She does not like the idea of competitions (worsens her anxieties), so no professional coaching or training in non-academic areas despite natural ability.

[Mike in SA]

An interesting occurrence hit me last night, which may help explain the reasoning behind this question.

 

If you are familiar with the MBTI profiles, you'll know that there are two basic classes of planners. The "J" profiles hit the ground running,and expect to make adjustments as unexpected details arise. The "P" profiles, on the other hand, need to plan. The longer term the objective is, the more important it is to work out the details.

 

Now, there are three other profile categories. If you just happen to match the "planning" profile with "intuitive" and "feeling," you end up with a person who desires deep purpose in what they do. This is DS.

 

Ultimately, he will need to find a way to connect his need to serve humanity with his other gifts. For us as parents, understanding how such a result evolves would be incredibly helpful...

[Kathy in Richmond]

An interesting occurrence hit me last night, which may help explain the reasoning behind this question.

 

If you are familiar with the MBTI profiles, you'll know that there are two basic classes of planners. The "J" profiles hit the ground running,and expect to make adjustments as unexpected details arise. The "P" profiles, on the other hand, need to plan. The longer term the objective is, the more important it is to work out the details.

 

Now, there are three other profile categories. If you just happen to match the "planning" profile with "intuitive" and "feeling," you end up with a person who desires deep purpose in what they do. This is DS.

 

Ultimately, he will need to find a way to connect his need to serve humanity with his other gifts. For us as parents, understanding how such a result evolves would be incredibly helpful...

 

Interesting! (though you have the J and P mixed up...J's like things planned out in advance, while P's prefer to keep decisions open as long as possible, adjusting to circumstances as they go)

 

My ENFJ (intuitive, feeling, planner) daughter & myself (INFJ) really do need to connect our gifts to serving others. There are subjects dd loves (math, Latin) and other which she excels at, but could take or leave (science). She's just started her career and is happily working at AoPS headquarters, where she finds a pleasant mix of math & programming at the highest challenge level, and also teaching & helping kids. She's also a devoted MathCamp alumna, by the way...if you have any questions about MC, I'd be happy to answer them.

 

My INTP son, on the other hand, is very happy in the computer industry where he can work on new developments in CS all day long.

[quark]

Starting a spin off thread on Math Camp!

[Mike in SA]

Ok, "plan" was a poor choice of words. Both plan... I really meant those who schedule and act (J) versus those who dig out every detail first (P), starting slowly then moving quickly. What is funny is that P can be very impulsive... DS and I are both ENFP. DW is INTJ. She starts packing for a trip two days ahead. I think about what I'll need, make sure I have everything, then pack in 20 minutes. It freaks her out how thoroughly I research every detail. I'm surprised how she has plans A, B, and C prepared before every class she leads. :)

 

Anyway, DS loves the learning and prepping, but needs a long-term objective to draw his focus. The more complicated the problem, the better.

[EndOfOrdinary]

I am an INTJ female (complete with A, B, and C plans for both long and short term 😀) with an ENFP son. Ds is not interested in math; he is all Hum based. I was a math freak though. I began attending CalTech for summers at 14. There was nothing more exciting than being surrounded by other incredibly weird math kids. We were all quite quirky. There was nothing more painful than going home at the end of the summer. However, I chose not to attend when accepted at 16. I realized just how much normalicy I was going to lose.

 

This desire for normalicy hit my son around age 8. We made socializing a school subject. It still took two years to find a group of kids he really fit with, but he has them now. All his school stuff became absolutely hush hush, and until it started blowing up on the Internet no one knew. He is only okay with it now because he has friends. Most of them still do not know or do not understand all the stuff Ds does regionally.

 

Could your son's devotion to math be a form of escapism from lack of social contact? With a Myers Briggs of a social butterfly, it would be so hard to be isolated. It was hard for me and you do not get much more anti social than an INTJ female.

 

DYS, community college, and Mensa can give him academic outlets, but social ones might be better. Ds has a whole tribe of skateboarding friends now and he could not be happier. Other than one of them speaking Spanish as his home language, there is nothing academic about it. Ds speaks Spanish with Anthony, but that is it.

[Mike in SA]

I am an INTJ female (complete with A, B, and C plans for both long and short term 😀) with an ENFP son. Ds is not interested in math; he is all Hum based. I was a math freak though. I began attending CalTech for summers at 14. There was nothing more exciting than being surrounded by other incredibly weird math kids. We were all quite quirky. There was nothing more painful than going home at the end of the summer. However, I chose not to attend when accepted at 16. I realized just how much normalicy I was going to lose.

 

This desire for normalicy hit my son around age 8. We made socializing a school subject. It still took two years to find a group of kids he really fit with, but he has them now. All his school stuff became absolutely hush hush, and until it started blowing up on the Internet no one knew. He is only okay with it now because he has friends. Most of them still do not know or do not understand all the stuff Ds does regionally.

 

Could your son's devotion to math be a form of escapism from lack of social contact? With a Myers Briggs of a social butterfly, it would be so hard to be isolated. It was hard for me and you do not get much more anti social than an INTJ female.

 

DYS, community college, and Mensa can give him academic outlets, but social ones might be better. Ds has a whole tribe of skateboarding friends now and he could not be happier. Other than one of them speaking Spanish as his home language, there is nothing academic about it. Ds speaks Spanish with Anthony, but that is it.

 

I wouldn't say he has any devotion to math at all.  That's what is so odd about the pace he demands.  One of these things is not like the other...

 

The social butterfly has always been a challenge.  Until he's in a school with a couple thousand kids (or in college!), he knows he isn't going to find good fits for friends.  So, his best friend is, and probably always will be, his little brother.  But, I don't think that drives his schoolwork.  Being anything other than himself would be disingenuous, and therefore, intolerable.

 

[KSinNS]

Passion (which I think is what you're talking about) is a funny thing. I've been thinking about this lately, because 2 of my kids are very passionate, right now, about their music, and the other one in the same age group is not, though she is a truly lovely violinist. Some of that is related to my oldest's autism which means he has these very intense interests, some to my middle son's very passionate personality and tendency to join in on his brother's passions. So they listen to music, talk music, write music, play music all day long.

 

So it sounds like your kid is super awesome at math, but doesn't get his awesomeness, or feel any real passion for it. Some of that is probably personality-the passion/obsessive interest approach to life is probably more innate. Most people really don't have that, and I think there is more than one way to be brilliant. From what I"ve read and observed in the adults in my life, the obsessive stuff helps to you be great at your thing, but it can cause problems. And sometime the passion doesn't match the skill level, and that can be really destructive! The other thing is that he's young. He may not have found something that he wants to dedicate his life to, and at the end of the day, he's only 13, even though he is obviously super smart and doing really hard, advanced math. He probably also doesn't get that other people can't do what he can do, which is probably a blessing at this point. Maybe he'll be a renaissance man!

 

Anyway, lots of useless rambling. I'm sure your son will find his way with joy and enthusiasm when something speaks to him. I'm sure he will use his gifts, regardless of where they take him. 

[ebunny]

An interesting occurrence hit me last night, which may help explain the reasoning behind this question.

 

If you are familiar with the MBTI profiles, you'll know that there are two basic classes of planners. The "J" profiles hit the ground running,and expect to make adjustments as unexpected details arise. The "P" profiles, on the other hand, need to plan. The longer term the objective is, the more important it is to work out the details.

 

Now, there are three other profile categories. If you just happen to match the "planning" profile with "intuitive" and "feeling," you end up with a person who desires deep purpose in what they do. This is DS.

 

Ultimately, he will need to find a way to connect his need to serve humanity with his other gifts. For us as parents, understanding how such a result evolves would be incredibly helpful...

 

My experience has been that the MBTI personality type is not necessarily constant across the lifespan of individuals. In my 20s I was an INTP, now am a textbook INTJ. Looking back on my childhood, I'd hazard a guess that I was an ISFP. It seems reasonable that one's personality may udnergo a change as we grow and deveop all our lives.

 

In short, I would be skeptical of using MBTI types as an indicator for future vocation, especially for anyone under 25. Just my 2 cents...

 

[Mike in SA]

My experience has been that the MBTI personality type is not necessarily constant across the lifespan of individuals. In my 20s I was an INTP, now am a textbook INTJ. Looking back on my childhood, I'd hazard a guess that I was an ISFP. It seems reasonable that one's personality may udnergo a change as we grow and deveop all our lives.

 

In short, I would be skeptical of using MBTI types as an indicator for future vocation, especially for anyone under 25. Just my 2 cents...

 

Believe me, I get that, too.  MBTI is an archaic tool psychologically.  It does give you a sense of which way the wind is blowing, though.  We actually have some more powerful tools at our disposal, but the context of MBTI is fairly easy to grasp and share.

 

There are things we all just "know" about our kids.  There are other things we can't know for sure.  Hence, the OP, looking for BTDT-type hindsights...

[MBM]

I've been thinking about your situation, Mike, and two programs came to mind that might be worth considering at some point. You might already know about these but I'll mention them anyway.

 

The first is the Summer Math Program for High School Students at Texas State San Marcos. Kids who've done the program are sometimes allowed to work on math research the following year. In 2009 one of the teams won first place at the Siemens, national level, and shared a $100K scholarship.

 

http://www.txstate.edu/mathworks/camps/hsmc.html

 

The second one is the Summer Program in Applied Rationality and Cognition -- SPARC. It's two weeks long and held at Berkeley in summer. I know a kid who did Ross and a few other top math camps and who also finished about three years of college math (best student in Real Analysis that his prof had ever had) at Northwestern by the time he was a senior in high school. He was very good in comp sci, math and science and is now at Stanford (turned down Harvard and MIT). Anyway, SPARC was the program that was most meaningful to him. It is not just a math camp and seems like a good fit for kids who would like a more integrative experience.

 

http://sparc-camp.org

[Mike in SA]

Yes, we were aware of those, but thanks for the thoughts!

 

Texas State is about 40 minutes from home, so it has been on our radar for awhile. It's a beautiful campus, to boot.

[Brad S]

Interesting thread.  About competition math, my 13 y.o. DS had no interest whatsoever in competition math but suddenly changed his mind a few months ago when a friend(s?) suggested it.  I think he enjoyed the camaraderie of a math club, and he really, really liked it.  I only mention this since a sudden change is possible.  Prior to that, my DS said he wasn't really interested in math.  DW and I practically fell out of our chairs with how sudden the change was.  (We spent several years going at a slower than normal pace in math due to DS's stated preference and now DS says he wants to switch to AoPS for a stronger math program and is considering on "doubling up" in math next year to get back to where he thinks he should be.)  It sounds like a math camp discussed above, and/or a local math club, might interest your son. 

 

I wouldn't worry about working too far ahead in math, nor going too slowly.  If your DS works radically ahead, it will all be useful, and I see no downside whatsoever.  On the other hand, I wouldn't push either or worry about a slow pace for a year.  It seems that your DS is self-motivated and happy -- what more could you want? 

 

It sounds like you've got this wonderfully under control.  Best wishes.

[Mike in SA]

Interesting thread.  About competition math, my 13 y.o. DS had no interest whatsoever in competition math but suddenly changed his mind a few months ago when a friend(s?) suggested it.  I think he enjoyed the camaraderie of a math club, and he really, really liked it.  I only mention this since a sudden change is possible.  Prior to that, my DS said he wasn't really interested in math.  DW and I practically fell out of our chairs with how sudden the change was.  (We spent several years going at a slower than normal pace in math due to DS's stated preference and now DS says he wants to switch to AoPS for a stronger math program and is considering on "doubling up" in math next year to get back to where he thinks he should be.)  It sounds like a math camp discussed above, and/or a local math club, might interest your son. 

 

I wouldn't worry about working too far ahead in math, nor going too slowly.  If your DS works radically ahead, it will all be useful, and I see no downside whatsoever.  On the other hand, I wouldn't push either or worry about a slow pace for a year.  It seems that your DS is self-motivated and happy -- what more could you want? 

 

It sounds like you've got this wonderfully under control.  Best wishes.

 

I appreciate it.  Looking back at the thread, it sounds like I haven't been taking the feedback as much as I actually have.  Perspectives really do help, and it's all I was actually hoping to get.  He's content, so we're content.  But, we still wonder, "What should we expect?"  If we knew, we would adjust our guidance accordingly.  Of course, there's no way of really knowing, unfortunately...