such great DE advice....will you help me too?!

[teeterbunch]

I've been following the thread on DE, and it has been so helpful.  I was wondering if you might be willing to respond to my specific situation as well?

 

My son is a rising senior.  Here's what I'm thinking for him for next year:

 

Fall 2015

English 12: American Lit. - home 

US History - home using Funda Funda's curriculum & taking AP exam

Spanish

Calculus -  at CC

MacroEco. - at CC

 

Spring 2016

English 12 - finish

US History - finish

Spanish - finish

AP MicroEco - with PA 

 

This would be our first experience with CC, so I'm trying to reconcile this schedule with the advice below from Lee Binz's website.

 

Avoid over-working your student. If your child is taking a full time community college course load, do not expect any additional homeschool classes. If your child has two full community college classes, they might be able to do one or two classes at home. If your child is taking one full community college class at a time, you might expect them to get about half of their usual homeschool workload completed. 

 

My son is a capable student, but doesn't have great executive skills (ie. time management).  He is motivated, because he will have to get scholarships to attend either of the 2 private universities he is interested in, but he is just now making the connection between short-term diligence and long-term goals.  He was a late bloomer physically, and I'd say his emotional development has paralleled that.  His current aspirations are to major in economics or poli sci in undergrad, then go on to Law school.

 

I'd like to go the CC route for Calculus because I don't want to teach it, and I'm thinking it will help give him a taste of college level expectations.  I am concerned about whether it might move too quickly for him.  We've used MathUSee all the way through; currently completing PreCalculus.  He's doing well, but he's having to work hard to master the concepts.  This is a change from previous years. 

 

As far as the macroeconomics, we have completed the Economics in a Box semester-long program.  So, I don't think this information will be all new.

 

My son will also be participating on our Mock Trial team, which will require about 4 hours a week during the fall semester.  He is extremely self-motivated in this area.

 

So, any thoughts??

 

Ashley

 

[katilac]

Avoid over-working your student. If your child is taking a full time community college course load, do not expect any additional homeschool classes. If your child has two full community college classes, they might be able to do one or two classes at home. If your child is taking one full community college class at a time, you might expect them to get about half of their usual homeschool workload completed. 

 

I somewhat agree with the first statement, partially with the second, not with the third.   

 

If your student is taking two CC classes, I don't see why they only 'might' be able to do one or two classes at home. Bare minimum full-time is 12 hours  per semester, which is generally four classes. If my student couldn't handle 2 CC classes and 2 high school classes, I'd think they were better served by a full-time high school schedule. And there's not a thing wrong with that. 

 

If they're taking one CC class, again, why is it you 'might' expect them to get about half of their workload done at home? Assuming you have the standard workload of about 6 classes, then half of that plus the one at CC is 4 classes. I would certainly expect them to be able to do that, especially because the workload at home can be adjusted here and there when they have big CC projects or midterms, etc. 

 

My dd is a junior and does 3 DE classes at the local uni and about 4 classes at home. Now, she has very limited outside activities, which makes it more workable, but I definitely don't think that 2 DE classes combined with 2-3 classes at home is onerous for a strong, college-bound student. 

 

Most post-secondary schools have about 15 weeks per semester, 30 weeks per school year. So you have about 6 weeks or so in the standard school year where you are only working on the home classes, and you can get quite a bit done. 

 

Edited to add that my use of 'you' was not directed at the OP, but at the quoted statement and in general. 

[G5052]

A lot depends on how "loaded" they've been before, and their experience with deadlines and exams. I appreciate much of what Lee Binz says and that her audience wants clear guidance, but I also think that generalized advice like you cite doesn't apply in every situation.  

 

Mine have done fine with everything I've thrown at them, even CC and AP classes at the same time.  They've always had a heavy workload and outside classes with deadlines.  The transition to dual enrollment has been completely smooth here.  I have at times adjusted the workload when deadlines where coming up (i.e. a week before an AP exam, no other school).  We've sometimes had to school well into June, but IMHO that's OK.  The local schools don't end until mid-June most of the time because of snow days. 

 

It also depends on which calculus you're thinking of and his placement score at the CC.  At the local CC where I work, they have calculus for STEM majors and what they call "applied calculus" for business majors transferring to a 4-year school and certain vocational 2-year degrees.  With a borderline placement score, there's no way that I would do STEM calculus.  I might do "applied calculus" which is less abstract and reportedly easier.  Most economics programs are fine with either BTW.  

[Kareni]

A few thoughts and questions ~

Has your son taken a math placement test at the community college?  I ask this because even though a child might have taken a course such as PreCalculus, there is no guarantee that he will test into the next math level.  If the answer is no, you might have him do so to see where he does place.  (And, yes, I think the pace of a community college math class is a valid cause for concern.)

No science?  (Perhaps he has already finished what you deem necessary.)

 

...

This would be our first experience with CC, so I'm trying to reconcile this schedule with the advice below from Lee Binz's website.

 

Avoid over-working your student. If your child is taking a full time community college course load, do not expect any additional homeschool classes. If your child has two full community college classes, they might be able to do one or two classes at home. If your child is taking one full community college class at a time, you might expect them to get about half of their usual homeschool workload completed. 

 

 

I'm of the opinion that the above is true only for some students.

 

We have a community college here that operates on a quarter system.  The first quarter of 11th grade my daughter took a full load at the community college (13 hours -- College Algebra, Composition, and Geology) while also doing two out of the home AP classes (AP Comparative Government and Politics and AP Latin) as well as a fiber arts class.  In the subsequent quarters she took 12 hours (Trigonometry, Literature, Geology) and 8 hours (Composition and Geology) while continuing with the AP classes and fiber arts class.  She earned all As at the community college and received grades of 5 and 4 on her AP exams.  It was a challenging year especially when you also add in the PSAT, SAT, SAT subject, and NLE tests she took; however, she did fine.  You are probably a far better judge of what your child can handle than is Lee Binz.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[Lori D.]

...If my student couldn't handle 2 CC classes and 2 high school classes, I'd think they were better served by a full-time high school schedule. And there's not a thing wrong with that...

 

… standard workload of about 6 classes, then half of that plus the one at CC is 4 classes. I would certainly expect them to be able to do that… I definitely don't think that 2 DE classes combined with 2-3 classes at home is onerous for a strong, college-bound student...

 

Agreeing. I definitely agree with Lee Binz about knowing your student and being careful to not overload, but what each student can handle is going to vary so widely, not only on student's ability and maturity, but also how difficult are the dual enrollment classes, how capable of a teacher is the dual enrollment instructor, etc.

 

Just our experience:

While doing dual enrollment certainly did take more of a time-bite out of our schedule, with our academically average DS with mild LDs, doing 1 dual enrollment class in 12th grade meant he could do 4 additional classes at home; the following semester with 2 dual enrollment classes he could do 3.5 classes at home. Plus, he was doing several time-intensive extracurriculars each semester.

 

 

Fall 2015

English 12: American Lit. - home 

US History - home using Funda Funda's curriculum & taking AP exam

Spanish

Calculus -  at CC

MacroEco. - at CC

 

Spring 2016

English 12 - finish

US History - finish

Spanish - finish

AP MicroEco - with PA 

 

This may be ideal for your particular student and circumstances. However, JMO, not knowing your student or circumstances: this seems light/minimal for the normal circumstances and student who is advanced enough to be doing dual enrollment while in high school and who plans to go on to college, as this schedule has:

- no science in either semester

- math only in the first semester

- overall light credit load

 

Fall

0.5 credit, high school = English

0.5 credit, high school = History

0.5 credit, high school = Spanish

0.5 credit, college = Econ

1.0 credit, college = Calculus

3.0 credits 

 

Spring

0.5 credit, high school = English

0.5 credit, high school = History

0.5 credit, high school = Spanish

0.5 credit, high school = AP Econ

2.0 credits 

 

JMO, but I would at least plan on adding in a full credit for an elective -- perhaps something like political science. Or a subject of personal interest. Or, if DS already knows what college he'll be attending and knows which dual enrollment credits will be accepted towards gen. ed. requirements, then maybe do 2 dual enrollment courses each semester, and knock out something like Speech-Communications, Computers, or other gen. ed.

 

 

My son is a capable student, but doesn't have great executive skills (ie. time management)…  He was a late bloomer physically, and I'd say his emotional development has paralleled that.

 

With this being the case, I would maximize dual enrollment success by only doing ONE dual enrollment class in the fall, and make it NOT math, but some other gen. ed. class that he has a level of comfort with the material already, so his focus can be on transitioning into college level of work/speed, how to study and time-manage, etc. Then if successful with one dual enrollment class, in the spring go for TWO classes, with one of them being a more challenging course (like the Calculus).

 

 

I'd like to go the CC route for Calculus because I don't want to teach it, and I'm thinking it will help give him a taste of college level expectations.  I am concerned about whether it might move too quickly for him.  We've used MathUSee all the way through; currently completing PreCalculus.  He's doing well, but he's having to work hard to master the concepts.  This is a change from previous years. 

 

MUS tends to be the least rigorous of all high school math programs out there; your DS will have to take the math assessment when enrolling at the CC for dual enrollment, and there is a possibility that he may not test high enough to be eligible for the Calculus, so it's a good idea to have a back-up plan.

 

Also, if he's having to work hard with the Pre-Calc this year, I would strongly consider NOT having the first dual enrollment class be Calculus. I would also strongly consider doing two semesters of math as dual enrollment: Fall = Pre-Calc (as a re-do/review for solid foundation), and Spring = Calculus. That allows the student to get up to speed in transitioning to college level work with material he's just seen; it really cements it for him, and it provides a strong foundation for Calculus. 

 

That would also allow DS to take another dual enrollment class with each semester; maybe something like:

 

Fall 

- Pre-Calculus (will have familiarity to make this go smoothly)

- Micro Econ (or Political Science, or Speech-Communications, or other college gen. ed. requirement)

 

Spring

- Calculus

- Macro Econ (will have familiarity to make this go smoothly)

 

 

He is motivated, because he will have to get scholarships to attend either of the 2 private universities he is interested in,

 

Gently, if scholarships are needed for attending college, then he's going to have to have a more rigorous transcript, and not look like he's coasting in senior year with only 4-5 classes each semester. Dual enrollment (as long as he performs well there), will help. What might look significantly better is 6 solid high school classes in each semester of 12th grade.

 

The reality is your student will be competing for merit scholarships against students who:

- take 6-8 credits each year of high school

- regardless of future major, take math, science, and academic electives each year

- likely have a 3.5+ GPA and ACT/SAT score in the top 25% (or better)

- likely have 2-5 AP tests on their transcript -- or possibly some dual enrollment

- and they have the time-consuming extracurriculars and volunteering, too

 

Side note: reality of what else will help with scholarships:

Tutoring/coaching for the SAT or ACT and nailing a very high school would also help boost the chances for merit aid. Do you have any factors that tend to weigh in the student's favor for being awarded other types of scholarship money -- minority? first generation in the family to attend college? cancer survivor or child who lost a parent to cancer? The hard truth is that college costs have skyrocketed and scholarships are drying up everywhere, even with private schools with lots of endowments. To land merit aid, a student has to work harder and score higher than ever before. The least likely students right now to land merit aid are: middle class, white, average-to-a-bit-above-average male students going into humanities or social sciences. 

 

I'd see how he does next year, and definitely apply to the schools and see what kind of financial aid package they offer. If there's not enough merit aid in the package to make these schools a possibility, perhaps consider living at home and knocking out 1-2 years of the gen. ed. requirements at the CC that will transfer to one or both schools and then apply as a transfer student, and only need 2 years to finish off a Bachelor's degree. That saves a lot of money, esp. if he changes his mind in a few years on what degree he wants to pursue -- which a MAJORITY of college students do.

 

BEST of luck, as your family juggles all these considerations! :) Warmest regards, Lori D.

[JanetC]

If your student is taking two CC classes, I don't see why they only 'might' be able to do one or two classes at home. Bare minimum full-time is 12 hours  per semester, which is generally four classes. If my student couldn't handle 2 CC classes and 2 high school classes, I'd think they were better served by a full-time high school schedule. And there's not a thing wrong with that. 

 

 

Lee Binz is in Washington, which is on the quarter system. A full load on the quarter system is 3 classes, not 4.

 

 

My DD is doing CC for the first time this year on the Washington quarter system, and Lee's comments seem right-on to me, though she is getting better at balancing school, rest, and life with more experience. She got essentially no homeschool work done her first quarter at CC.

[Lori D.]

Lee Binz is in Washington, which is on the quarter system. A full load on the quarter system is 3 classes...

 

That helps to know this! Thanks for sharing. :)

 

 

Just for further clarification of my post above:

We are NOT on a quarter system, so my thoughts were based on a traditional 2-semester school year, with the amount of time / work / material covered in a 1-semester 4-unit community college courses (math, science, foreign language) is roughly equivalent to 1 credit of high school credit, while the amount of time / work / material covered in a 1-semester 3-unit community college course (writing, econ, speech, humanities, etc.) is roughly equivalent to 0.5 credit of high school credit.

 

cheers! Lori D.

[Artichoke]

Since your son has already completed an economics course, you might want to do a CLEP exam instead of repeating the macro portion at cc. That'll save some time and money. As others have suggested, you might want to add another elective or a science class for a more robust senior year. Has your son studied American Gov't yet? Would he be interested in AP Comparative Gov't?

 

Best wishes as you plan and make decisions.

[teeterbunch]

Thank you so much for all of the "food for thought." : )  I really like the idea of doing pre-calc in the fall, then calculus in the spring.  I've been feeling nervous about the difficulty he's having with math this year, and I think that would ease my mind.  He likes that idea, too!

 

I understand about the course load not making him competitive for merit aid.  He's just not "that kid."  We are hoping that his accomplishments in mock trial may lead to some scholarship money.  If not, we are prepared for him to do 2 years of community college, then transfer.  Of course, my husband and I have to decide how much we are willing to subsidize.  His performance in the CC classes next year may give us an idea of how prepared he is for the independence and pace of college.

 

I really appreciate you taking the time to respond!

 

Ashley

[AngieW in Texas]

I doubt that he will be able to start with calculus at the cc if he is having to struggle to get through MUS precalculus. He will have to take a placement test at the cc to see which level of math he can place into. If he is having a hard time with MUS Precalculus (struggling, even though he is getting it), then compressing calculus into one semester right after that is not a good idea. I would recommend taking Precalculus or College Algebra in the fall and then Calculus in the spring. Unless he is going to major in something that requires economics, I probably wouldn't bother with using it as a cc class. Instead I would probably make the foreign language class my choice. There is no science listed and I think it's important to have a science class every year for college-bound students.

 

As far as what kind of load he can handle, I can tell you what my dd is doing. My 16yo is dyslexic and dysgraphic and has anxiety/panic disorder and OCD. She struggles with academics. She is very good at time management. She is taking what would probably be considered a fairly light load this year (11th grade) because she has a lot of extra stressors going on this year that will not be present next year (like having her 21yo sister who also has OCD at home and adjusting to my first year of working full-time outside the home).

 

Summer -

English 1301 at cc - 1st semester of English I 

 

schoolyear at home

French - Fluenz French

Algebra II - MUS with tutor (because I'm working full-time)

Medieval History - Bauer's high school medieval history text

Creative Writing - novel-writing

 

schoolyear at cc

one semester each of Life on Earth (only biology class without college algebra requirement) and English 1302 (2nd semester of English I)

 

So for her 11th grade year, she will have 1 credit each of English science, history, math, and foreign language along with 1 semester of creative writing.

She also had physical therapy (for her shoulder weekly for five months), vision therapy (weekly for the whole school year), and speech therapy (weekly for two months for vocal chord dysfunction).

 

For next year she wants to take three classes at the cc each semester along with doing French (1 credit), creative writing (0.5 credit), and government (0.5 credit) at home. She plans to take Economics I and II, Business Math and Business Calculus, another science for one semester, and another course that she hasn't decided yet. She wants to take Digital Imaging over the summer to learn photoshop. Each long semester she would have two classes at home and three classes at cc.

 

Most students should be able to handle one class at cc and 3-4 classes at home. Many students can handle 2 classes at cc and 3-4 classes at home. 

 

 

 

 

[justasque]

I've been following the thread on DE, and it has been so helpful.  I was wondering if you might be willing to respond to my specific situation as well?

 

My son is a rising senior. ...

 

This would be our first experience with CC, ...

 

My son is a capable student, but doesn't have great executive skills (ie. time management).  He is motivated, because he will have to get scholarships to attend either of the 2 private universities he is interested in, but he is just now making the connection between short-term diligence and long-term goals.  He was a late bloomer physically, and I'd say his emotional development has paralleled that.  His current aspirations are to major in economics or poli sci in undergrad, then go on to Law school.

 

I'd like to go the CC route for Calculus because I don't want to teach it, and I'm thinking it will help give him a taste of college level expectations.  I am concerned about whether it might move too quickly for him.  We've used MathUSee all the way through; currently completing PreCalculus.  He's doing well, but he's having to work hard to master the concepts.  This is a change from previous years. 

 

...

 

 

 

Another option, which you and he may or may not want to consider, is to have him do an extra year of high school, with the idea of maximizing the DE credits and creating a stronger application to the colleges he is looking at.  He could use the time to solidify his math skills (perhaps taking a step back from the pre-calc for a DE course, then proceeding with the sequence), build up some more credits, and gain experience with the executive skills he'll need to succeed in a four-year school.  He will (hopefully) come out as a better candidate for scholarships, and better prepared to excel once he gets to college.

[teeterbunch]

Having him do an additional year of high school has been a topic of conversation around here lately.  He's not completely averse to it.  Although, we have already visited a couple of colleges (as much as anything as a way to motivate him), so it would definitely be an about face.  I am concerned though about having a kid at home who really needs to be independent.  I don't want to increase the likelihood that we will all bump heads.  He's a pretty headstrong kid to begin with.  My husband shares that concern...as matter of fact, that is probably his primary concern about extending high school.  

 

I've been listening in on some of the posts about extending high school a year.  A lot of people say keep your child home until they are ready for college.  I'm trying to figure out what that looks like.  My son is definitely not working up to his potential, and is lacking in executive skills.  However, he won't take advice from me in this area, so I don't see much improvement.  I'm wondering if a reality check would be more effective.  At this point I'm leaning towards enrolling him in DE for the fall in 3 classes in which he already has some experience: Spanish 1, Pre-Calculus, and Macroeconomics.  Although that may seem counter-intuitive, given his failure to demonstrate good executive skills, he just won't apply my advice in this area.  Do you think I will regret this sink or swim approach?  Keeping him at home feels like beating my head against a wall.  What do you think?  I've been holding out hope for a long time that maturity would kick in during his junior year, but I think that hope is waning. 

 

Also, I really do want to teach to the student I have, not the student he could be.  I don't want him to feel that I am disappointed in him all the time.

 

Ashley

 

[Kareni]

 

At this point I'm leaning towards enrolling him in DE for the fall in 3 classes in which he already has some experience: Spanish 1, Pre-Calculus, and Macroeconomics.  Although that may seem counter-intuitive, given his failure to demonstrate good executive skills, he just won't apply my advice in this area.  Do you think I will regret this sink or swim approach?

 

 

It's really impossible to tell if you'll regret the decision. 

 

Bear in mind that grades your son earns at the community college will need to be reported to any further colleges he may wish to attend. 

 

If your son does attend the community college, I would pay serious attention to their drop date in case you/he decides that three classes is an unmanageable challenge.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[teeterbunch]

I actually have a question related to that.  I think I read somewhere that community college credits transfer, but not the grades.  So while they will take those into account when deciding about admission, you start college with a clean slate as far as GPA.  Does this vary by school?

 

Ashley

[Kareni]

That's a good question, Ashley.  And, sadly, I don't know the answer.  Hopefully someone else will know.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[JanetC]

I actually have a question related to that. I think I read somewhere that community college credits transfer, but not the grades. So while they will take those into account when deciding about admission, you start college with a clean slate as far as GPA. Does this vary by school?

 

Ashley

Yes, it varies by school.

 

For state schools here in Washington, the DE advisors harped on the kids that these grades are for real and forever.

[Lori D.]

I think I read somewhere that community college credits transfer, but not the grades.  So while they will take those into account when deciding about admission, you start college with a clean slate as far as GPA. 

 

From College Transfer website:

 

Do my grades transfer with my college courses?

Although your grades from transfer courses are used in making admissions decisions, they are not calculated into your GPA as transfer courses. Your transfer courses will appear on your official academic history transcript, but the grades you received in the classes will not count toward any GPA or class ranking…

 

 

So, depending on the individual school's policies, the new school only calculates cumulative GPA from classes taken at that school... BUT, even when that is the case, poor grades from a CC, whether dual enrollment or as a college student, will haunt you -- they are part of your permanent college transcript from the community college, and they definitely affect your chances at admission/transfer to a 4-year university.

[Wildcat]

Yes, it varies by school.

 

For state schools here in Washington, the DE advisors harped on the kids that these grades are for real and forever.

 

This. Out of the six universities I contacted with questions regarding DE courses, each had a different answer for every one of my questions. All were state schools and four were in the same state (2 large, 2 medium), so it really does vary with each institution.

 

Some had policies regarding the max number of DE credits allowed before being ineligible for Freshman scholarship, and some counted grades where some didn't. Some would accept certain courses, where some took all of the classes, but only certain courses' GPA would count, etc, etc. It was very confusing! The bottom line was that every one of them required the cc transcript and the GPA counted for a lot whether it was transferred to the 4-year school or not.

 

It all boils down to the answer I hated hearing "ask the school". Then, when you get an answer, you'll need to verify periodically that they haven't changed their policy. This happened to us.