Would you consider community college for this student and this desired career?

[Greta]

I posted on the chat board about my extremely art-passionate 15 year old daughter: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/543362-so-helping-and-supporting-very-passionate-kids/

 

I also wanted to ask here (thank you, Faith, for suggesting it) about incoporating more art into my daughter's high school years, because of her frustrations with not being able to spend more time on what she wants to do, and less time on subjects she's not interested in. There's probably not much I can do about the latter, but maybe I can do something about the former.

 

She currently takes weekend art classes, but I was thinking that maybe she would be happier if she worked toward an associate's degree in art at the same time that she's working toward her high school diploma. This would not be instead of a BA, but simply before a BA. The point would be to make her feel more like she is working toward her goals right now rather than merely slogging through high school so that then she can finally learn what she wants to learn.

 

There is a branch of the CC very close to us, very convenient. And it's dirt cheap. They offer an AA in studio art and an AAS in Computer Information Systems, Digital Media concentration. She wants to eventually get a BA in graphic arts, so either/both of these seem like they might be helpful.

 

The thing is, she will not be going to college in this state (for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that the big state U doesn't offer a digital arts program!) so there's a good chance that credits won't transfer to wherever she ends up going.

 

Also, I know that CC's can vary widely in quality, and this one is . . . well, not impressive. I know a bit about the atmosphere there from one class that I took, and from what friends have told me, and it's not the kind of atmosphere I would normally choose for her. I'm pretty confident that she's passionate and driven enough to rise above it, but I thought it worth mentioning because it does factor into the decision.

 

We're currently working towards Kolbe's magna cum laude diploma. I'm wondering if choosing the standard diploma might be a better option for her, because it would free up more time for art classes. But I still want to make sure we are doing everything we need to do in high school to get her into college, so I don't want to slack off too much on the standard coursework.

 

Uggh, what a jumbled mess of thoughts! Can anyone help me sort this out?

[Arcadia]

Does she have a portfolio? Would she be interested in being a volunteer web designer for non-profits? My kids attend classes at some non-profits that would love free help in web design.

 

My kids attend Art classes at the Art center and their teachers have a BFA with some having their MFA.

[OneStepAtATime]

No clue but wanted to send hugs of support and hopes for some great responses to help you sort it all out.  My DD also loves art.  She will be 9th grade next year.  I understand your situation.  Good luck.

[MomatHWTK]

I don't think either path is wrong. But, a lot will depend on how mature your DD is.  There's quite a range at 15.  I would make sure your DD understands the implications of her choices.  She wants to do her art now, but does she also have a plan on how that will make her a living in the long run?  If she is still in the impulsive "I want it now" stage of life, then it is up to you to make sure she is considering the future effects of today's actions. 

 

Can you enroll her in one of the classes at the CC as a start? 

[JanetC]

If it's not a good environment, I personally would look into other private art options instead. If this is the best possible option, remember that you can just take classes, you don't have to work towards an associates. This minimizes the time in the poor environment, and means she can do easier, high school level work in subjects she's less interested in and save the intense college level work for stuff that she's really motivated for..

 

There are often a couple options at CCs- my DD is taking art in the "regular" community college, but there are also "continuing education" classes in arts and digital design. So, you could see if one or the other is more appropriate.

 

My DD is taking art at a good CC. The profs have been supportive, but the classes are intense and tough. Private classes are often very encouraging, but after the entry level class taken by any major, all "making a good effort" gets you in art at the CC is a C. A B is for getting good results with your attempts. And and A is for outstanding work only. Which is hard when you're 16 and the other students are older and many have four years of high school art. Make sure your DD is ready to work hard, won't be phased by nude models, is in it for the experience, not the A, etc.

[Liza Q]

Some thoughts.

 

I would hesitate to send my 15yo daughter into an environment that seemed shady to me.

 

If the classes are dirt cheap, I would not worry about them transferring. She would be developing the skills she wants and may be able to use them long before she even gets to college.

 

Take a good look at the schools she is considering. Would a stronger transcript lead to more scholarship money, or does she need more advanced classes just to get in?

 

For example, here are the requirements for the school my daughter wants to attend -

They prefer a strong B average. College prep or honors curriculum appreciated, This will be a problem for my daughter - her GPA is only a 3.2 at this point, and she is doing an average curriculum. They don't have a hard rule, so we feel it is worth applying, It would not help for her to take some more challenging classes when we both know she struggles to get good grades in regular classes. She knows this so she has a community college lined up as her 2nd choice. If she needs to start there, she is hoping to get better grades and then transfer.

SAT and ACT not required. This is a good thing for  her!

Portfolio necessary for the program she likes, which is extremely competitive.  Of course, we hope that her portfolio is awesome!

 

I have to go but I do have some more thoughts...

 

 

[Tsuga]

Sorry, why is CC not a good environment? Encouraging professors, other motivated students...? Having known many people who did Running Start and loved it I'm not sure what you could mean by this given your assessment of the course.

 

 

 

 Private classes are often very encouraging, but after the entry level class taken by any major, all "making a good effort" gets you in art at the CC is a C.

 

The C was probably not for effort but for output. I'm not sure what else you would expect for an average output.

 

As for the experience... well, yes, but be there to get specific skills.

 

On the other hand, if this is not a rigorous college and if they view their job is to pass people through rather than create an atmosphere in which everyone can learn and achieve their goals in life--then, yeah, I'd hesitate. I'd choose another CC or do private classes.

 

 

[MBM]

I have a BFA in graphic design and worked for a graphic design firm and advertising agencies. Later, I went back to school and moved over to the business side so that I could work on my art on the side.

 

Can you look at the work students are doing at the CC? Do they have shows or display their artwork somewhere for the public? Can your daughter visit students' studios or talk to some of them? I would ask students what they think of the profs. What experience do profs have? Are they are talented and do they help the students by offering constructive feedback?

 

Nowadays your daughter will want to learn how to use the computer programs used by graphic design firms. I entered the field when the first Apple computers were coming out (!) and old-fashioned layout techniques were still being used, but I taught myself how to use the different programs as they came out.

 

More traditional courses will be helpful, too. You can find online classes that are good. For example, I think Vitruvian's online courses are worth checking out.

http://vitruvianstudio.com

 

To help choose courses in your area, you could look at what the major art schools require for a graphic design degree.

 

Also, if your daughter wants to eventually work in graphic design, start investigating some of the businesses and what they're doing. Magazines she might like: How, Communication Arts and Graphis often showcase different artists' work and have helpful articles. There are many new ones that came out after I left the field, though. You can find some at art supply stores.

 

Graphic design can be a fun, rewarding field but it requires a lot of work to do well and sometimes a lot of overtime.

[JanetC]

Sorry, why is CC not a good environment? Encouraging professors, other motivated students...? Having known many people who did Running Start and loved it I'm not sure what you could mean by this given your assessment of the course.

 

 

The C was probably not for effort but for output. I'm not sure what else you would expect for an average output.

 

As for the experience... well, yes, but be there to get specific skills.

 

On the other hand, if this is not a rigorous college and if they view their job is to pass people through rather than create an atmosphere in which everyone can learn and achieve their goals in life--then, yeah, I'd hesitate. I'd choose another CC or do private classes.

 

I didn't say that every CC wasn't a good environment -- my DD loves hers but the OP's not sure about hers.  They are NOT all the same.

 

This is the quote from my DD's drawing II syllabus:

 

An “A†grade means mastery of all course outcomes and exceptional quality in your drawings.

“B†level requires an above average, reasonably complete mastery of course outcomes.

“C†level is for people that extend a reasonable effort and meet all requirements (assignments, attendance

etc.) for the course.

 

 

Making a reasonable effort, attending class, and turning in all assignments gives you a C, and A's are only for those who do work of exceptional quality. Exceptional compared to students who may have much more experience than your high schooler.  My point was simply compared to a typical teen art class in other settings (community center, arts centers, private studios, etc.) where the teacher is there to encourage everyone to do their best (and grades are not given), the standards at CC are higher than some young students may expect.

[Tsuga]

So sorry, I read you as writing, "It's not a good environment," not "if it's not." My apologies.

[Greta]

Thank you all so much for the replies and the help! I'm surprised to have gotten to many responses so quickly, but I shouldn't be - I know by now that these boards are populated with awesome, helpful people!

 

I'll try to answer all the questions that were asked ...

 

Portfolio - she is working on this right now. In fact, she's taking a class (private) right now called "Building a Portfolio". :)

 

Web Design - she hasn't expressed any interest in web design, but we have several friends who do this for a living. I wonder if she could maybe "team up" with one (or more) of them to do the artistic side while they do the technical side?

 

We could certainly enroll her in one class at the CC to see how it goes and if that will really be a food fit for her. There's no need to make the decision right now (why do I always think I have to have everything planned out?). That is a good point about how she will be in class with people 4+ years older than her. And just to explain a bit about the local CC: the state in which we live is ranked either 49th or 50th in K-12 education. More than half of high schoolers in our city drop out sometime between 9th grade and graduation. There is a very pervasive underlying attitude here of education not being important. And that attitude is reflected in or permeates the CC as well. Not with the instructors, but with the students. I took one science class there, and I was absolutely shocked at the way the ADULTS in this class whined like children over assignments and tests, and couldn't understand and follow basic instructions. I've talked to others who have had the same experience with science and technology courses there. I had an acquaintance years ago who was an instructor there, teaching what was *supposed* to be a college level English course. But she said she was basically forced to make it a high school level course, because her students had never done anything beyond middle school level work before.

 

I have no idea if the art classes would be different in this regard or not. But that is a very good suggestion to find out whether there is some sort of event where the students at the CC display their art.

 

MBM, I really like your suggestion regarding the professional magazines! And yes, I need to find out what kind of software programs she needs to be able to work with, too.

 

Once she's 16, she could also take some dual enrollment courses at the big state university. It is also located in our city, further from our home, but this is a small city so it's not a big deal. It would be more expensive, but as residents, it's still affordable (and cheaper than wherever she'll end up getting her degree!). The credits would be a lot more likely to transfer, I would think. And the environment would be better. Maybe she doesn't need to work toward an AA but just take a few higher level courses to get a better feel for whether or not this is really what she wants to do, and get some confidence and experience.

 

Regarding her maturity level - she is generally very mature and level-headed for her age. On this particular subject, though, I think she does have this very specific vision of what her future career is going to be like, and it a bit idealized and unrealistic. I can't fault her too much for that though. How many 15 year olds understand what the work world is really like? I think we definitely need to investigate more about what graphic artists really do on a day to day basis.

 

ETA: I misunderstood and thought the question about why the CC was not a good environment was aimed at me. But it really isn't the best environment, so it was worth explaining that so that you guys can tell me if I'm crazy to consider putting her there! My husband has expressed this concern as well. We've protected her from the local schools for precisely this reason for all these years. Would it be crazy to send her into that now?

[MomatHWTK]

ETA: I misunderstood and thought the question about why the CC was not a good environment was aimed at me. But it really isn't the best environment, so it was worth explaining that so that you guys can tell me if I'm crazy to consider putting her there! My husband has expressed this concern as well. We've protected her from the local schools for precisely this reason for all these years. Would it be crazy to send her into that now?

 

 

This is a very serious concern for us and has been on my mind this week as we look toward our first child beginning high school level work.  I can envision DD being encouraged to take advantage of our local high school's art department offerings by enrolling.  But, the school also fired a coach this past year for having an affair with a student.  So...  For me, it would be very important that my child be mature enough to handle the environment.  Is she going to get swept away by someone who flatters her and "understands" her talent.  KWIM? 

 

I was a teenager once, and remember how easy it was to get caught up by living in the moment. 

 

I consider it part of my job in fostering her passion to make sure that she is realistic about her career options and also understands the social aspects of dealing with instructors, fellow students, etc. 

 

As an aside, I am Ok with any of my kids saying "I don't like this subject and will only do what I need to do," I am not OK with them saying "I'm never going to use this and it is a waste of time."  None of us knows what the future holds and if I've selected it for them to study, there's a reason.  So we get it done and have faith that it is time well spent.  I believe that part of proving your maturity and commitment to a goal is doing what it takes to achieve that goal- even if it is the boring drudge work. 

 

 

(eta: We are using Thevirtualinstructor.com for online art lessons right now.)

[EndOfOrdinary]

Our local CC is less than inspiring as well. However cheap and accessible go along way to swing votes. I hear you on the inner turmoil of it all. One of the things that I discovered was the acceptance of AP credits. My son can pass AP tests and the CC will grant credits. If you wanted your daughter to take the art classes and some others she might find interesting, but streamline her coursework, she could self study AP's. The credits granted for standard classes then can apply to degree requirements. We are going to go this route if everything continues the way it appears to be going for Ds. At 80 dollars an AP test it is well worth the attempt.

[kiana]

I think that you'd see less of the whining in the art classes that are only not required but usually not part of the general education requirements than you would in general education requirements. The higher the percentage of students who are in a class because they want a degree instead of wanting to learn the material, the more whining there will be.

[Greta]

So... For me, it would be very important that my child be mature enough to handle the environment. Is she going to get swept away by someone who flatters her and "understands" her talent. KWIM?

I hadn't even thought about those kinds of scenarios! She is so very NOT interested in dating at this point in her life, she has certainly never lacked for attention and affection from her parents, so I just don't picture her as being vulnerable to that. But I bet most parents don't picture their daughters as being vulnerable in that way, and yet... we all know it happens. I'll discuss it with my husband and see what he thinks.

 

I consider it part of my job in fostering her passion to make sure that she is realistic about her career options and also understands the social aspects of dealing with instructors, fellow students, etc.

Yes, this is exactly what I want to do, and now I need to figure out how. :)

 

As an aside, I am Ok with any of my kids saying "I don't like this subject and will only do what I need to do," I am not OK with them saying "I'm never going to use this and it is a waste of time." None of us knows what the future holds and if I've selected it for them to study, there's a reason. So we get it done and have faith that it is time well spent. I believe that part of proving your maturity and commitment to a goal is doing what it takes to achieve that goal- even if it is the boring drudge work.

Agreed and well said!

[Greta]

Our local CC is less than inspiring as well. However cheap and accessible go along way to swing votes. I hear you on the inner turmoil of it all. One of the things that I discovered was the acceptance of AP credits. My son can pass AP tests and the CC will grant credits. If you wanted your daughter to take the art classes and some others she might find interesting, but streamline her coursework, she could self study AP's. The credits granted for standard classes then can apply to degree requirements. We are going to go this route if everything continues the way it appears to be going for Ds. At 80 dollars an AP test it is well worth the attempt.

Thank you for bringing this up! That's a good point to consider.

[Greta]

I think that you'd see less of the whining in the art classes that are only not required but usually not part of the general education requirements than you would in general education requirements. The higher the percentage of students who are in a class because they want a degree instead of wanting to learn the material, the more whining there will be.

I wondered if this would be the case. I mean, it seems like the reason you would be in an art class is that you love doing art! Of course, I always felt that way about my science classes, but there are people who are just there to fill a requirement, and not because they love science. The class that I took there, however, was not one that filled a gen ed requirement, but one for students on their way to getting degrees or certifications in medically-related fields. I would think under those circumstances you'd be pretty motivated to learn the basic, foundational knowledge of your field!

[kiana]

I wondered if this would be the case. I mean, it seems like the reason you would be in an art class is that you love doing art! Of course, I always felt that way about my science classes, but there are people who are just there to fill a requirement, and not because they love science. The class that I took there, however, was not one that filled a gen ed requirement, but one for students on their way to getting degrees or certifications in medically-related fields. I would think under those circumstances you'd be pretty motivated to learn the basic, foundational knowledge of your field!

 

It sounds kinda like anatomy and physiology. There are a lot of people in that class for sure (one of my friends teaches it) who think they're going to be a nurse because it pays well, but all they really know of nursing is what they see on TV. They think it's irrelevant (they also think my algebra class is irrelevant -- unit conversions? pfft) and view it as a hurdle to get through.

 

So I would expand my earlier statement to say that something which is an entry-point to many well-paying careers is also going to have a lot of whining, because a lot of students are only focused on the degree they want and not on "this is a prerequisite so it is probably important".

 

[MBM]

Your daughter could learn a lot if she could tag along with people in art fields, even if just for a few days or so. Studios are also fun to visit if that's a possibility. You could also try finding graphic designers and art directors discussing their work online.

 

The free(!) courses that MomatHWTK linked look good. I would just suggest that your daughter will also want someone to critique her work along the way. To give you an idea of classes a high schooler might take, here are some that are offered at my son's high school, which has a strong program:

 

-- drawing: pencil, charcoal, pen & ink

-- painting: oil, acrylic, watercolor

-- photography

-- video art

-- sequential art and animation

-- ceramics

-- glass making

-- design as visual communication

-- computer programs: Illustrator, Photoshop, InDesign

-- art history: something like Megg's history of graphic design, the Janson art history book, Sister Wendy's videos are very good, too

 

The successful graphic designers I know are disciplined, self-directed, open to constructive feedback, adaptable and can manage their time well -- deadlines are always looming. Also keep in mind that graphic designers are in the business of convincing others -- their boss, co-workers, clients. Selling is often part of the job.

[Liza Q]

This is something I have been thinking about. If I allow my daughter to devote more time to her passion - she has wanted to be a fashion designer since she was 11 and begged to take sewing lessons - am I ultimately doing her a disservice? The chance of her succeeding in her field - pretty slim. Not that I don't think she will find some work, but the field is so competitive. I don't want all her eggs in one basket.

 

At the same time, her academics abilities are really - community college level. She won't be able to get into the 4 year city/state colleges here with her math grades. And our financial situation is such that we can only consider a private college if there are lots of scholarships involved. We don't qualify for any FA and we won't take out any loans. And our local (NYC) community colleges are not a bad option. So, I don't feel the pressure to try to prepare her for something more. Understand me - it is not that I want to let her slack off, but that she is working hard at her level, not a level I wish she had.

 

But - if she were a different kid, one who was just as good at math and science as she was at drawing? Then, I think I would go for a strong college prep program. Because that would give her the most options.

 

A poster in another thread mentioned that her child had switched from music to accounting or some math-related field - what a change!! And she said that she was glad that she had had her child go through calculus.

 

I guess what I am saying is that that magna cum laude diploma may be more valuable than some art classes in the long run. It is not like she is not working on her portfolio, right?

[Greta]

It sounds kinda like anatomy and physiology. There are a lot of people in that class for sure (one of my friends teaches it) who think they're going to be a nurse because it pays well, but all they really know of nursing is what they see on TV. They think it's irrelevant (they also think my algebra class is irrelevant -- unit conversions? pfft) and view it as a hurdle to get through.

 

So I would expand my earlier statement to say that something which is an entry-point to many well-paying careers is also going to have a lot of whining, because a lot of students are only focused on the degree they want and not on "this is a prerequisite so it is probably important".

 

Yes, it was human anatomy! My B.S. is in biology (zoology, actually) and I took classes with a lot of pre-med students who were really strong in science. But they spoke of other pre-med students who were getting their degrees in unrelated fields, taking only the bare minimum of biology courses, because they were drawn to medicine for other reasons (family tradition, the allure of the pay, etc.) and not because they were interested in science. I always thought medicine was a rather strange field to choose if you're not interested in science!

 

There's probably a lesson here in helping my dd prepare for her career. She is bored with the fact that art classes focus so much on still lifes. I don't know enough about art to say, but maybe still lifes are as foundational to art as anatomy is to medicine.

[Greta]

Your daughter could learn a lot if she could tag along with people in art fields, even if just for a few days or so. Studios are also fun to visit if that's a possibility. You could also try finding graphic designers and art directors discussing their work online.

 

The free(!) courses that MomatHWTK linked look good. I would just suggest that your daughter will also want someone to critique her work along the way. To give you an idea of classes a high schooler might take, here are some that are offered at my son's high school, which has a strong program:

 

-- drawing: pencil, charcoal, pen & ink

-- painting: oil, acrylic, watercolor

-- photography

-- video art

-- sequential art and animation

-- ceramics

-- glass making

-- design as visual communication

-- computer programs: Illustrator, Photoshop, InDesign

-- art history: something like Megg's history of graphic design, the Janson art history book, Sister Wendy's videos are very good, too

 

The successful graphic designers I know are disciplined, self-directed, open to constructive feedback, adaptable and can manage their time well -- deadlines are always looming. Also keep in mind that graphic designers are in the business of convincing others -- their boss, co-workers, clients. Selling is often part of the job.

Wow, that sounds like a very comprehensive offering of art courses for a high school!

 

Thank you very much for the description of the graphic artists that you know. This is helpful to me, and I will pass it along to her as well.

[Greta]

This is something I have been thinking about. If I allow my daughter to devote more time to her passion - she has wanted to be a fashion designer since she was 11 and begged to take sewing lessons - am I ultimately doing her a disservice? The chance of her succeeding in her field - pretty slim. Not that I don't think she will find some work, but the field is so competitive. I don't want all her eggs in one basket.

 

At the same time, her academics abilities are really - community college level. She won't be able to get into the 4 year city/state colleges here with her math grades. And our financial situation is such that we can only consider a private college if there are lots of scholarships involved. We don't qualify for any FA and we won't take out any loans. And our local (NYC) community colleges are not a bad option. So, I don't feel the pressure to try to prepare her for something more. Understand me - it is not that I want to let her slack off, but that she is working hard at her level, not a level I wish she had.

 

But - if she were a different kid, one who was just as good at math and science as she was at drawing? Then, I think I would go for a strong college prep program. Because that would give her the most options.

 

A poster in another thread mentioned that her child had switched from music to accounting or some math-related field - what a change!! And she said that she was glad that she had had her child go through calculus.

 

I guess what I am saying is that that magna cum laude diploma may be more valuable than some art classes in the long run. It is not like she is not working on her portfolio, right?

 

I really appreciate you sharing this.  You've brought up so many of the issues/questions I've been struggling with.  It's a very interesting thing, raising a child who is so different from yourself.  She has a drive to create unlike anything I've ever experienced.  She's so artistically inclined that her drawing ability had surpassed mine by the time she was six years old!

 

On the other hand, I was a very good student, and I knew how to ace a test.  She really struggles with tests.  She does well in the coursework, because she works hard at it, but when the test comes around she does not perform in a way that reflects her knowledge/mastery of the subject material, and I'm not entirely sure why.  I live in dread of her ACT and SAT tests.  I fear that her scores will really limit her options, even though she is an incredibly bright, creative, driven, and focused person.  I got a full ride to my state's university based solely on my ACT score.  I just don't see anything like that in her future.  I'll be thrilled if her scores simply allow for admission into the colleges that she's interested in.  Is she good at math and science?  Yes.  But is she great at them?  No.  (And that's unexpected since both parents have degrees in science, including one with a PhD in physics!  This is not the kid we thought we'd get, lol!  But I'm not saying that as a complaint.  I wouldn't change her if I could.  The fact that she's so different from me is a good reminder that she's God's, not mine.)

 

Well, anyway, I'm rambling.  But I really appreciate your thoughts here, and your point about keeping her high school education well-rounded, because I really don't know what her future holds.  There was a time when, even though she was just as passionate about art, she said she did NOT want a career in art, because she wanted to keep it purely as a source of joy in her life, and not as a source of stress, pressures, deadlines, financial worries, etc.  So who knows, she may go back to thinking that!

[JanetC]

There's probably a lesson here in helping my dd prepare for her career. She is bored with the fact that art classes focus so much on still lifes. I don't know enough about art to say, but maybe still lifes are as foundational to art as anatomy is to medicine.

Yes, still life is an important skill, but you can mix it up with different media, different emphasis (types of surfaces, types of lines, drawing and shading techniques), etc. You might try taking a class more focused On something like sculpture or photography to mix things up, too.

 

My DD hasn't been bored with foundational art classes, but they don't fill all her needs either. After spending so much time in classes working on her techniques, she still has a need to make even more art just for herself, for creative expression.

[Greta]

Yes, still life is an important skill, but you can mix it up with different media, different emphasis (types of surfaces, types of lines, drawing and shading techniques), etc. You might try taking a class more focused On something like sculpture or photography to mix things up, too.

 

My DD hasn't been bored with foundational art classes, but they don't fill all her needs either. After spending so much time in classes working on her techniques, she still has a need to make even more art just for herself, for creative expression.

 

Thank you Janet!  

[JennW in SoCal]

I really appreciate you sharing this.  You've brought up so many of the issues/questions I've been struggling with.  It's a very interesting thing, raising a child who is so different from yourself.  She has a drive to create unlike anything I've ever experienced.  She's so artistically inclined that her drawing ability had surpassed mine by the time she was six years old!

 

On the other hand, I was a very good student, and I knew how to ace a test.  She really struggles with tests.  She does well in the coursework, because she works hard at it, but when the test comes around she does not perform in a way that reflects her knowledge/mastery of the subject material, and I'm not entirely sure why.  I live in dread of her ACT and SAT tests.  I fear that her scores will really limit her options, even though she is an incredibly bright, creative, driven, and focused person.  I got a full ride to my state's university based solely on my ACT score.  I just don't see anything like that in her future.  I'll be thrilled if her scores simply allow for admission into the colleges that she's interested in.  Is she good at math and science?  Yes.  But is she great at them?  No.  (And that's unexpected since both parents have degrees in science, including one with a PhD in physics!  This is not the kid we thought we'd get, lol!  But I'm not saying that as a complaint.  I wouldn't change her if I could.  The fact that she's so different from me is a good reminder that she's God's, not mine.)

 

 

Don't know if this will help you sort things out, but thought I'd share some of my experiences.  I too agonized over education choices for my ds who was very singled mindedly focused on a creative art, and while clearly very bright, was not an academic superstar.  Now that he is 23 and working full time in his dream job -- the job he had wanted since he was 12 -- I can tell you in perfect 20/20 hindsight about the brilliant choices we made. (I wish I could time travel back a few years to reassure my former self that it would all work out!)

 

When this ds was in 9th grade we opted out of a college prep high school path. He was horrible at standardized tests and wanted to avoid the ACT or SAT at any possible cost. There were other factors at play, too, as he always struggled with some learning disabilities. So we went for the most limited amount of high school that would still meet state graduation standards but that would not get him into a 4year college. Our decision meant that he would start at a community college and later apply to a 4 year school as a transfer student.  Tough, tough, horrible decision, but it was the right one for him.

 

He spent his high school learning his craft -- theatrical lighting design -- both as an academic subject and as a volunteer working with mentors.  By the time he was a senior, he was being hired to design lighting for productions by small community theater groups and a few schools.  He started at a community college, and found the typical mix of students, mostly unmotivated with a few very motivated.  We stumbled upon a non-traditional BA program in show production, to which he was accepted and from which he graduated almost 2 years ago.  There were the same mix of students there, by the way, the druggies, the dropouts, the whiners, but there was a small core in his class that were focused and motivated, and they stuck together through graduation.

 

My other ds did many CC courses while still in high school.  I like to joke that he "fired" me from homeschooling him after 10th grade because he needed more than I could provide.  His CC classes were also filled with clueless students, most of whom dropped out long before the end of the semester. But they didn't influence him as he was there to learn, and he found a couple of other studious, nerdy friends.  He also was dubbed "the little professor" by his chemistry classmates who would turn to him for help with their homework.  He was only 15 at the time.  He enjoyed his classes, and made a point of speaking to the professors outside of class, asking questions about the material in class and about 4 year colleges.  He applied as a freshman to 4 year liberal arts colleges, and the one he is attending accepted all his CC courses.

 

I suppose what I want to suggest by sharing these stories is to at least take a closer look at the art classes at the community college. You know your dd, and if you think she'd benefit from and enjoy the classes there irregardless of her classmates, then give it a try.  She may even find some likeminded friends there. 

[MBM]

This is something I have been thinking about. If I allow my daughter to devote more time to her passion - she has wanted to be a fashion designer since she was 11 and begged to take sewing lessons - am I ultimately doing her a disservice? The chance of her succeeding in her field - pretty slim. Not that I don't think she will find some work, but the field is so competitive. I don't want all her eggs in one basket.

 

At the same time, her academics abilities are really - community college level. She won't be able to get into the 4 year city/state colleges here with her math grades. And our financial situation is such that we can only consider a private college if there are lots of scholarships involved. We don't qualify for any FA and we won't take out any loans. And our local (NYC) community colleges are not a bad option. So, I don't feel the pressure to try to prepare her for something more. Understand me - it is not that I want to let her slack off, but that she is working hard at her level, not a level I wish she had.

 

But - if she were a different kid, one who was just as good at math and science as she was at drawing? Then, I think I would go for a strong college prep program. Because that would give her the most options.

 

A poster in another thread mentioned that her child had switched from music to accounting or some math-related field - what a change!! And she said that she was glad that she had had her child go through calculus.

 

I guess what I am saying is that that magna cum laude diploma may be more valuable than some art classes in the long run. It is not like she is not working on her portfolio, right?

 

Your daughter's interests could lead to something other than designing clothes. If she worked in the fashion industry that could give her exposure to different positions and she might find something else that suits her well. A friend of mine worked as a fashion show producer -- and loved it. She sort of fell into the job initially but because she was very good at organizing, she moved up quickly. Another friend of mine worked in a boutique in high school and after college, where she majored in French, she bought a small boutique near Palo Alto which she has been happily running for almost 25 years. My MIL knitted prototype sweaters for GAP. Her sister was trained as an haute couture seamstress in Europe. There are all kinds of jobs out there in fashion.

 

Another fun place to work -- museums. I worked for one and it was a blast. So much goes on behind the scenes that the general public doesn't get to see. Some art will never see the light of day. LOL. I might go back to work next year and if I do, I'll be applying to the Art Institute of Chicago.

 

Advertising can be another good place to work. The creatives are usually exceptionally talented especially at big agencies and there are always a lot of interesting things going on. I had so much fun when I worked at agencies. Even the business side was fun.

 

Regarding academics, a lot of people in art are very good at what they do but not so much academics. A friend of mine went to Exeter, hated it, got her GED and pursued painting. By the time she entered grad school, her work was being shown at three galleries in NYC.

 

My youngest brother is a chemical engineer and photographer. His photography has been used in major newspapers and magazines. It's what he and his wife do for fun. I have a friend who is a neon artist, another who's a performance artist, friends who are art teachers at universities, etc. People in art often have interesting stories about how they got there.

 

What I'm saying is that if your daughter is interested in art, some more exposure to what is out there could be helpful.

[Liza Q]

Thanks, MBM. She has been taking weekend and summer classes at FIT since the 8th grade. She and her friends frequently hit the museums together and she in interested in more art than just fashion design.

 

We have made it clear that not being academic is not a bad thing - that she has wonderful talents and abilities! She is good with her hands, creative in every way, very capable when she wants to be. But her emotional issues are such that we worry she will never get through college or manage well in a job. It is way more than not being academic. I hate to be specific because I feel disloyal to her, kwim? It's hard.

[Greta]

Don't know if this will help you sort things out, but thought I'd share some of my experiences.  I too agonized over education choices for my ds who was very singled mindedly focused on a creative art, and while clearly very bright, was not an academic superstar.  Now that he is 23 and working full time in his dream job -- the job he had wanted since he was 12 -- I can tell you in perfect 20/20 hindsight about the brilliant choices we made. (I wish I could time travel back a few years to reassure my former self that it would all work out!)

 

When this ds was in 9th grade we opted out of a college prep high school path. He was horrible at standardized tests and wanted to avoid the ACT or SAT at any possible cost. There were other factors at play, too, as he always struggled with some learning disabilities. So we went for the most limited amount of high school that would still meet state graduation standards but that would not get him into a 4year college. Our decision meant that he would start at a community college and later apply to a 4 year school as a transfer student.  Tough, tough, horrible decision, but it was the right one for him.

 

He spent his high school learning his craft -- theatrical lighting design -- both as an academic subject and as a volunteer working with mentors.  By the time he was a senior, he was being hired to design lighting for productions by small community theater groups and a few schools.  He started at a community college, and found the typical mix of students, mostly unmotivated with a few very motivated.  We stumbled upon a non-traditional BA program in show production, to which he was accepted and from which he graduated almost 2 years ago.  There were the same mix of students there, by the way, the druggies, the dropouts, the whiners, but there was a small core in his class that were focused and motivated, and they stuck together through graduation.

 

My other ds did many CC courses while still in high school.  I like to joke that he "fired" me from homeschooling him after 10th grade because he needed more than I could provide.  His CC classes were also filled with clueless students, most of whom dropped out long before the end of the semester. But they didn't influence him as he was there to learn, and he found a couple of other studious, nerdy friends.  He also was dubbed "the little professor" by his chemistry classmates who would turn to him for help with their homework.  He was only 15 at the time.  He enjoyed his classes, and made a point of speaking to the professors outside of class, asking questions about the material in class and about 4 year colleges.  He applied as a freshman to 4 year liberal arts colleges, and the one he is attending accepted all his CC courses.

 

I suppose what I want to suggest by sharing these stories is to at least take a closer look at the art classes at the community college. You know your dd, and if you think she'd benefit from and enjoy the classes there irregardless of her classmates, then give it a try.  She may even find some likeminded friends there. 

 

 

Thank you so much for sharing this, Jennifer!  It's so very encouraging and reassuring.  Because of my own higher education being so much a function of my ACT score, it's just really difficult for me to imagine things any other way!  It's very heartening to know that there *are* in fact other ways.  :)

[katilac]

I just replied on your other thread about the vacation in particular. 

 

You're not alone in this. Details differ for everyone, but lots of teens get very restless and forward-looking at this age. They feel like they are spinning their wheels to some extent, and they want to just get on with it! I tell my dd that some level of dissatisfaction is perfectly normal - that's how we get them to leave the house! 

 

If she likes to sew and design, has she tried working in youth or community theater? She could even offer to volunteer at a local school, offering to help sew or repair costumes (using their materials, of course). Local historical group that does reenactments? 

[Greta]

I just replied on your other thread about the vacation in particular.

 

You're not alone in this. Details differ for everyone, but lots of teens get very restless and forward-looking at this age. They feel like they are spinning their wheels to some extent, and they want to just get on with it! I tell my dd that some level of dissatisfaction is perfectly normal - that's how we get them to leave the house!

:D The problem there is, I wish she never had to leave! But that's another story. :) Anyway...

 

I appreciate your point very much. Though I did not, at her age, have the same drive, focus, passion, etc. that she does, I did very much want to get away from my parents and start my own life! :lol: And let's face it, there were many times/places throughout human history when a young woman her age would have been doing exactly that. I'm sure we're "hard wired" to want that at that age. So maybe talking with her about that can help a bit. Sometimes just knowing that your feelings are perfectly normal can go a long way in helping you deal with them. Thank you!

[Greta]

In a timely bit of news, I saw in a local paper today that my state's CC's have one of the lowest graduation rates in the nation.  Apparently there's also a bit of a controversy because students are claiming that the advisors there have misled them, telling them to take classes that they didn't actually need.  So by the time they finally graduated, they qualified for three degrees, when they only wanted one.  They're saying the CC is exploiting the good students in this way to pad their numbers, make it look like more are graduating by issuing more degrees (to the same number of students).  Of course, I have no idea if there's truth to the claim.  But the thing is, anyone who wants to can review the list of required courses for any particular degree on the school's website, so it seems a pretty easy trap to avoid (meaning, not that I don't believe those students, but that I think we can steer clear of that problem fairly easily).

[kiana]

CC graduation rates are very problematic to measure because many students enter declared as degree-seeking students but transfer before completing their degree. This counts as a "failure" for the CC though by any rational measure a student who transfers and then successfully completes a 4-year degree should count as a success for the CC.

[Greta]

CC graduation rates are very problematic to measure because many students enter declared as degree-seeking students but transfer before completing their degree. This counts as a "failure" for the CC though by any rational measure a student who transfers and then successfully completes a 4-year degree should count as a success for the CC.

Yes, that's a good point to consider, and the article did bring that out. I should have mentioned it!

[Liza Q]

CC graduation rates are very problematic to measure because many students enter declared as degree-seeking students but transfer before completing their degree. This counts as a "failure" for the CC though by any rational measure a student who transfers and then successfully completes a 4-year degree should count as a success for the CC.

 

One of my older daughters started at CC and transferred before she graduated. The school was upset...but it was best for her to transfer. If she had earned an AA first, several of her credits would not have counted towards her BA; it would have been a waste of time and money. We did feel bad about it - Borough of Manhattan Community College is a great CC and we were very happy with it!

[kiana]

One of my older daughters started at CC and transferred before she graduated. The school was upset...but it was best for her to transfer. If she had earned an AA first, several of her credits would not have counted towards her BA; it would have been a waste of time and money. We did feel bad about it - Borough of Manhattan Community College is a great CC and we were very happy with it!

 

My brother who transferred from the CC actually back-transferred a few of his courses from the 4-year to complete his AA after he had already transferred, because he wanted to help the CC where he had gotten a very good start on his education. I think he was only missing speech and a social science class though.