AP questions

[Grantmom]

Hello all,

Sorry to be asking even more AP questions, but I am trying to figure this out before the online classes open and fill up.  For background, my son is most interested in physics, math, and engineering, so he would like to prepare for that type of path.

 

I was looking at the PA Homeschoolers AP classes, and the AP Chem has a prereq of one year of high school level chem.  The AP Bio doesn't say that you have to have one year of high school level bio as a prereq exactly, but it does say you need a year of chem and a strong background in biology or life sciences.  I thought that the AP class was just the more advanced version of the subject, and not necessarily one that you take after the regular version.  That is not how it was when I was in high school.  I didn't take regular chemistry, and then AP chemistry.  I just took AP Chemistry in 11th grade like all the other people on that track.  How could you have time to take a high school level class, and then the AP class, for all of those subjects that you want to take APs?  Do people do that for all the APs?

 

For those who self-study for APs, do you still put that as a course on your transcript?  I know I've seen people say they just call it Advanced Chemistry with AP exam, for example.  Would you have spent the whole year self-studying for an AP?  Or just a semester?  Or would it depend on the subject?

 

Thanks for any thoughts!

[Grantmom]

Another question, if you take a college class instead, you wouldn't also take the AP exam, correct?  Just as a way to "show what you know"?  Or is the grade in the college class validation enough?

[Jen in NY]

I think, as in so many things having to do with homeschooling, some of your questions will depend on the student.

 

Some people take high school level classes before AP's, some don't.

So far, my kids have done a high school level chem class, and then moved on to AP Bio, Phys, and Chem (or Chem at the CC). It worked for them. They were glad to have the chem background before moving on to APBio.

 

They have not taken AP exams when they have done dual enrollment classes.

 

You're right.... you can't list an AP Course on your transcript as such unless you have had your syllabus approved by the APBoard.  When my kids self study for exams I usually put AmGov't with AP Exam, or something like that. As for the length of time it takes to prep for the exam... again I think it's very student/subject dependent.

 

HTH.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

If the AP was done with someone else like a coop or online provider we had their syllabus approved then you can use the AP XYZ title on your transcript. So for example Lukeion teaches AP Latin from a syllabus they submitted for audit and have approval for. Their students can list the course as AP Latin.

[Gratia271]

Hello all,

Sorry to be asking even more AP questions, but I am trying to figure this out before the online classes open and fill up.  For background, my son is most interested in physics, math, and engineering, so he would like to prepare for that type of path.

 

I was looking at the PA Homeschoolers AP classes, and the AP Chem has a prereq of one year of high school level chem.  The AP Bio doesn't say that you have to have one year of high school level bio as a prereq exactly, but it does say you need a year of chem and a strong background in biology or life sciences.  I thought that the AP class was just the more advanced version of the subject, and not necessarily one that you take after the regular version.  That is not how it was when I was in high school.  I didn't take regular chemistry, and then AP chemistry.  I just took AP Chemistry in 11th grade like all the other people on that track.  How could you have time to take a high school level class, and then the AP class, for all of those subjects that you want to take APs?  Do people do that for all the APs?

 

For those who self-study for APs, do you still put that as a course on your transcript?  I know I've seen people say they just call it Advanced Chemistry with AP exam, for example.  Would you have spent the whole year self-studying for an AP?  Or just a semester?  Or would it depend on the subject?

 

Thanks for any thoughts!

In terms of taking all the classes prior to APs, some students double up sciences freshman or sophomore year, either taking full year to complete course work or compacting it.  Others take HS science courses during middle school.  And some go straight to AP course work. 

 

It really depends on the course and the student. It's important to figure out (insofar as possible) what is involved in each course, how much content overlap exists between Honors level and AP level, what your student's background in the subject is, and how much time on average is required - ideally by students like yours because time investment can vary widely. 

 

[8filltheheart]

My ds took chem before AP chem. (Glad he did.) He took the equivalent of AP bio without a reg bio (he didn't take the AP exam though. It wouldn't have given him credit for his major and he already had plenty of post AP science credits.) His chem and physics background made bio an easier class for him (he took it his sr yr after both chems and multiple semesters of physics.)

 

Fwiw, some APs are better after a high school course, some don't require it. A lot of it is going to be student dependent as well.

[teamturner]

I was wondering about this also.  For my upcoming 9th grade dd, I was planning for her to take Pre-AP Biology (9th), Regular or Honors Chemistry (10th), AP Biology (11th), and Physics (12th).  She wants to go into Veterinary Medicine in college.  She is young for her grade and average in math.  She has matured a lot this year, but not ready to tackle AP class in 9th.  

 

So now I need to have her double up on science?  Wow.  I guess she could take Apologia Chemistry this year also, but she is only going to be in Algebra 1 this year.  I think the Chemistry teacher at our co-op won't take a kid who hasn't already taken Algebra.

 

It sounds like it may be better to take AP Biology in 12th, after Physics?

 

edited to add:  If her college doesn't accept the AP Bio because she needs to take Biology at the university, isn't it still better to take the AP class in order to be better prepared for college Biology?

 

Thanks!

[Penguin]

The AP Science sequence boggles my mind, too. 

 

Regular Bio + AP Bio, Regular Chem + AP Chem, the whole of AP Physics is two courses.  Right there is six science credits.  Does anyone take physics before AP Physics?  That would make seven. 

 

I guess that completing the entire AP Science sequence means that you have to be (1) ready early for AP Science or (2) not in need of the basic course before the AP course or (3) willing to take a lot of science credits.  Or am I missing something?

 

(My oldest didn't take AP and my middle went to IB, so I don't have any BTDT experience with AP.)

[Luckymama]

But not everyone takes all three flavors of the science APs.

 

(Here I am speaking about kids I know) Students going into nursing and pre-med take AP Bio and AP Chem. Prospective engineering kids take (at a minimum) AP physics, with most also taking AP Chem.

 

My son took both Physics C courses (he's a comp sci major) without taking a plain old physics class. My older daughter took AP Bio (she's an English-French major) after taking biology. Ds doubled up on science his senior year (dd doubled up on English her senior year).

 

Ds: bio, chem, Physics C Mechanics (full year), Physics C Electricity & Magnetism (full year, senior), AP Environmental Science (full year, senior)

Dd: bio, chem, physics (her school didn't offer Physics B, the old algebra-based physics, now split into Physics 1 and 2), AP Bio

[mjbucks1]

I also agree that it very much depends on your child and the subject.  I personally think it is a very good idea to take a regular chemistry class before AP Chem (but I am sure some have taken AP Chem without taking a regular chemistry class first).  My ds took high school biology in 7th grade, and high school chemistry in 8th.  He then took AP Chemistry in 9th grade, AP Physics B in 10th, and is taking AP Physics C (both mechanics and electricity/magnetism).  He will take AP Biology next year.  AP Physics is very easy to take without having a traditional high school course first.

 

If her college doesn't accept the AP Bio because she needs to take Biology at the university, isn't it still better to take the AP class in order to be better prepared for college Biology?

 

 

Yes, I would agree.  My ds is taking AP Calculus, but because he is going into computer science/engineering he will most likely start over with the university's caluculus sequence.  He may do the same for physics.  IMO, it will just allow them to be better prepared for the classes.  We did not have AP Chemistry at my high school, but I took two years of chemistry in high school and had an excellent teacher.  I had to take a year of chemistry for my major in college and it was so much easier because I knew much of the material (but I definately wasn't bored!!)

 

 

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

So for the AP Bio answer...my only experience with this is my niece, who attended a well rated public school,  AP Bio students did not have to have Bio in high school before this class-just their middle school science that included bio, most had taken Chem but I don't know if it was a requirement.  I'm not sure anyone expects that a student will have completed the entire range of AP sciences.  There are 5 classes-plus computer science.  I have always been under the impression that it allows you to pick one or 2 that will be your areas of special interest while completing a regular science progression.

 

I think there are a few ways to view using AP in high school and you need to choose which are the actual goal: validation of "mommy grades" (yes, I hate that term too); to show the nebulous admissions requirement of taking the most challenging course load possible; to prepare for college/uni level work; to score high enough on the test to receive credit or advanced standing.  I think the first three are all accomplished simultaneously.  The last is so dependent on the individual institution attended and major selected that it is very difficult to predict.  In some places you can use enough AP scores to graduate a year early and in some you can receive advanced standing in the given department but sometimes you can't graduate early or avoid paying for those credits.  Sometimes the credit/standing is useless within your major as you must complete the courses at the university.  If all you value in using an AP is the credit or advanced standing you probably need to do much research so as not to be disappointed in what scores are needed and how the scores will be used.

 

For AP on a transcript if you or your in person/online provider is using a syllabus that was approved & registered (for them) by College Board then you may call the class AP xxx on your transcript.  (There are sample syllabi floating out there that were, at some point in time, approved by CB, if the approval isn't current for the year in which you take the class and current for that instructor/institution then it is not an official AP course.)

 

There are four main routes to an approved AP course: sign up at a local public or private school; have a co-op, private in-person instructor, or similar course go through the AP audit process and be approved; use a course from an online source that is approved; write your own syllabus/adopt a previously approved syllabus and get it approved for you and the given school year.

 

Using an approved course is only one route to having an AP test and score.  There are other options but they would be listed either only as test scores or as "Subject xxx with AP Exam" on a transcript.

 

A term I find very difficult that is used in these discussions is "self-study" for AP exams.  There are two possible definitions-having a class that covers subject matter from an AP test where you aren't using an approved outside teacher/syllabus and haven't done the audit process yourself or grabbing a study guide and then taking the test.

 

I really dislike the term in the first case.  I don't consider it self-study if you have organized a course to meet the content requirements of an AP exam (with or without going through the audit process).  You spend the year or semester learning the material and preparing for the exam.  That is no more "self-study" than any other class that is homeschooled and not run by a co-op or outside provider.  My kids didn't "self-study" 4th grade or Algebra I and when I organize a course in high school it isn't "self-study" either.  When I submit my syllabus it is really AP xxx and if I hadn't it would be xxx with AP exam.  Depending on the length/content of the course I would give the student semester or full year credit on their transcript.

 

I consider "self-study" to be one of the kids who grabs a study guide and practice exam, reads up on topic x this way and then goes to take the exam.  They haven't put in the hours that a student would spend in class, they haven't cracked a single book or article related to the course, completed a single assignment or problem set, etc.  Now-in its own way that is great, if you are the sort of person who can get a 4 or 5 on the exam from this process I say go for it-there is advanced standing and college credit up for grabs which can be very valuable.  However, I would not be giving high school credit for this method.  There is an implication when you give credit on a transcript that you have spent a certain amount of time and effort in a course.  Running through a prep book and taking an exam isn't worthy of a transcript credit, worthy of mention in the scores section of a transcript-yes, worthy of discussion in a teacher or counselors letter-yes (I would absolutely discuss how motivated the kid is that they self-studied for and successfully took x number of AP exams in addition to their regular course load.) But I wouldn't list it as a course on the transcript.

 

Usual disclaimers apply-this is just my opinion on the matter.  (Except for the part about only calling a course an AP course if it was approved for the instructor used during the year taken-I'm pretty sure that is College Board's opinion as well.)

 

[Note: I'm not a into nor am I required to count hours for high school courses nor am I an advocate for strict Carnegie hours counting.]

 

 

[Grantmom]

I also agree that it very much depends on your child and the subject.  I personally think it is a very good idea to take a regular chemistry class before AP Chem (but I am sure some have taken AP Chem without taking a regular chemistry class first).  My ds took high school biology in 7th grade, and high school chemistry in 8th.  He then took AP Chemistry in 9th grade, AP Physics B in 10th, and is taking AP Physics C (both mechanics and electricity/magnetism).  He will take AP Biology next year.  AP Physics is very easy to take without having a traditional high school course first.

 

 

Yes, I would agree.  My ds is taking AP Calculus, but because he is going into computer science/engineering he will most likely start over with the university's caluculus sequence.  He may do the same for physics.  IMO, it will just allow them to be better prepared for the classes.  We did not have AP Chemistry at my high school, but I took two years of chemistry in high school and had an excellent teacher.  I had to take a year of chemistry for my major in college and it was so much easier because I knew much of the material (but I definately wasn't bored!!)

 

Is your son a junior?  Do you think it is better to take physics in 11th after chem?  And then Bio in 12th?  Or was that just how it worked out for him?  Thanks for sharing everyone, this is very helpful.

[mjbucks1]

Is your son a junior? Do you think it is better to take physics in 11th after chem? And then Bio in 12th? Or was that just how it worked out for him? Thanks for sharing everyone, this is very helpful.

 

 

Yes, my son is a junior.  No, I do not think a student needs chemistry before physics.  When planning his AP courses I was REALLY trying to avoid having him take the class the first year of the revised exams.  This is what drove my planning, and the fact that he really loves physics.     

[Gratia271]

Is your son a junior?  Do you think it is better to take physics in 11th after chem?  And then Bio in 12th?  Or was that just how it worked out for him?  Thanks for sharing everyone, this is very helpful.

 

Not mjbucks, but I think students often take AP Chem prior to AP Physics (calc based) because they haven't had Calc yet and Chem doesn't require that level of math.

 

[Grantmom]

Are there some sciences about to change, or that recently changed?  It looks like Physics B split into Physics 1 and 2 this year, for the 2015 exam, but that it didn't affect Physics C.  It also looks like Chem changed in 2013, for the 2014 exam.  Is that all correct?  Were there other changes, or any other changes expected to come soon, in the next few years, that are known?

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Upcoming changes are listed in the Newspeakishly titled site Advances in AP.  https://advancesinap.collegeboard.org/

 

[MarkT]

Upcoming changes are listed in the Newspeakishly titled site Advances in AP.  https://advancesinap.collegeboard.org/

crap    my DS will be in the guinea pig group for this change:

 

https://advancesinap.collegeboard.org/stem/calculus

 

couldn't they wait just one more year before they wreck revise it  :cursing:

 

 

"To continually enhance alignment with current best practices in college-level learning"

this always scares me - it usually means untested unproven junk coming your way

 

update: It has the Common-Core smell all over it.

[mjbucks1]

Were there other changes, or any other changes expected to come soon, in the next few years, that are known?

 

Biology also changed recently.  All of the sciences, expect Physics C, have changed recently so there should not be any new changes for a while in that area.

[MarkT]

 

A term I find very difficult that is used in these discussions is "self-study" for AP exams.  There are two possible definitions-having a class that covers subject matter from an AP test where you aren't using an approved outside teacher/syllabus and haven't done the audit process yourself or grabbing a study guide and then taking the test.

 

I really dislike the term in the first case.  I don't consider it self-study if you have organized a course to meet the content requirements of an AP exam (with or without going through the audit process).  You spend the year or semester learning the material and preparing for the exam.  That is no more "self-study" than any other class that is homeschooled and not run by a co-op or outside provider.  My kids didn't "self-study" 4th grade or Algebra I and when I organize a course in high school it isn't "self-study" either.  When I submit my syllabus it is really AP xxx and if I hadn't it would be xxx with AP exam.  Depending on the length/content of the course I would give the student semester or full year credit on their transcript.

 

I agree. I think most people here mean "Home study" of college level material followed by AP exam as the final without submitting their syllabus for CB approval.

 

Except for photographic memory people "self study" of just prep books would be futile.

[TeaTotaler]

Yes, this can make planning ahead a challenge.  Ds hit the year of the changes for AP Chem so we opted out for that year and also because I realized a little late that most recommend taking a full year of Chem before AP Chemistry.  Aaah..live and learn.

 

With all the recent changes you may be OK for the next few years.  Of course, one never knows with the CB and Common Core :-(

Are there some sciences about to change, or that recently changed?  It looks like Physics B split into Physics 1 and 2 this year, for the 2015 exam, but that it didn't affect Physics C.  It also looks like Chem changed in 2013, for the 2014 exam.  Is that all correct?  Were there other changes, or any other changes expected to come soon, in the next few years, that are known?

 

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

I agree. I think most people here mean "Home study" of college level material followed by AP exam as the final without submitting their syllabus for CB approval.

 

Except for photographic memory people "self study" of just prep books would be futile.

Actually, in some places self study (learning out side an organized course structure) for many extra APs is a "thing".

 

Some folks dislike the term "mommy grades". I dislike the term "self study" when applied to an organized course of study in a given subject. I think it does a great disservice to both instructor and student.