A/P courses & test during community college?

[Hot Lava Mama]

Is it possible to do AP courses & test during the first two years of community college so that a student could be accepted into a 4-year school as a junior?  Any reason why this would be not be advisable?

 

Thinking ahead to ds college years (he is in 10th right now, 11th in the fall), could he do his GE courses in a community college, while also doing AP courses at home for other classes, then take the AP tests, and have these transfer to a really good college?  I know a lot of it "depends" on the school, (etc. etc.), but I am wondering if others have taken this route?

 

Any thoughts?

Hot Lava Mama 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I think I've seen several colleges specify that credit isn't given for AP exams taken after high school graduation.

 

Depending on the college policy CLEP might be an option. Then again some schools limit transfer credit.

[G5052]

If he hasn't graduated from high school and is mixing AP's and community college, that is fine.

 

If he's graduated from high school, they're not going to let you take an AP.  I remember a form to that effect, and mine had to show proof of their age and identity both at registration and at the test.

 

Also keep in mind that transfer admissions can be competitive, depending on the school.  There's a school in my state that won't consider you for a transfer into their engineering program unless you have a 3.5 or above, and some years the level for actual admission is more like 3.8.  Another school we're looking at will admit you 3.0-3.5, but won't guarantee a slot in the degree program unless you have a 3.5. So you might be treading water, waiting for classes with a longer completion rate.

 

As I said on another thread, I'm very supportive of community colleges (I teach at two), but you have to know what you're getting into.

[8filltheheart]

He could take that approach as a high school jr and sr, graduate with 60 accumulated hrs of college credit, and apply as a college freshman. After his first semester he would have advanced standing with whatever credits were accepted.

[AngieW in Texas]

AP tests can only be taken before graduating from high school. If you are talking about taking cc classes and doing AP tests while in high school, then yes, that is very possible and doable. My oldest didn't do any AP tests, but she took 42 credit hours at the cc through dual credit. She entered as a freshman, but jumped to sophomore status at the end of her first semester and junior status at the end of her second semester. Her school does not update status with outside credits until you have finished your first semester. My middle dd did one AP test and took 35 credit hours at the cc through dual credit. She also jumped to sophomore status at the end of her first semester and junior status at the end of her second semester. She is in her 4th semester at university and will have senior status when this semester is over. She is taking the GRE in two weeks and will be applying to grad school in March so she can do the fast track program (like dual credit, but lets you count graduate school courses towards undergraduate.

 

The only thing you can do to test out of courses after you have completed high school is CLEP (which can be done while still in high school as well). Universities often have a limit to how many courses you can get credit for this way. You can generally find the policy by googling /university name/ + CLEP. Sometimes you can find it easily on the university website by typing CLEP into the search engine on the site, but some universities make it difficult to find that way.

[go_go_gadget]

He take that approach as a high school jr and sr, graduate with 60 accumulated hrs of college credit, and apply as a college freshman. After his first semester he would have advanced standing with whatever credits were accepted.

 

This, or if your community college is in good standing with a university he'd like to attend, he could do the above but apply as a transfer student to go in as a junior. Doing it that would maximize the number of credits that would be accepted, and if the university were local to you, would allow him to live at home the whole time. Many universities require freshman to live on campus.

[Lori D.]

Is it possible to do AP courses & test during the first two years of community college so that a student could be accepted into a 4-year school as a junior? 

 

This part no. As previous posters have said, APs must be taken before high school graduation.

 

 

… (he is in 10th right now, 11th in the fall), could he do his GE courses in a community college, while also doing AP courses at home for other classes, then take the AP tests, and have these transfer to a really good college? 

 

Any thoughts?

 

This part yes, IF you mean doing APs in 11th and 12th grades while also doing dual enrollment classes at the CC. Some things to consider if going this route:

 

AP

- AP test does not automatically translate to college credit; it varies from school to school how much, if any, college credit a 4-year school will grant for AP

- not all AP tests are offered in every area every year

- if prepping for testing through AP classes: some classes are expensive -- sometimes more expensive than a dual enrollment course; example: PA  Homeschoolers AP Biology = $700/year long class + $75-200 for books and labs

- if you study at home rather than taking an AP class, you may have difficulty finding an open testing location; homeschoolers sometimes have difficulties finding a high school that has room for them to test along with the school's students -- the school must have an official AP proctoring set-up, which limits number of students per room and per proctor; the school simply may not have room for outside students

 

Dual Enrollment (DE)

- courses at a CC can vary in quality

- per course costs can be high, depending on the CC

- courses are part of your permanent college transcript and GPA; if you trip up or have a poor instructor, that grade follows you and impacts your overall GPA

- not all 4-year colleges accept CC credits

- not all the credits transfer to fulfill gen. ed. or degree requirements -- the 4-year school may only transfer some as "electives"

 

CLEP

- not all tests are accepted at all 4-year schools

- grants credit but no GPA (there may be situations in which a GPA is desired or needed)

 

Transfer to 4-year School

- some 4-year colleges limit how many credits you can come in with and still be considered a freshman -- over the maximum limit, and you are considered a transfer student, instead (the bulk of scholarships are awarded to

- depending on the degree program, some 4-year schools have courses and pre-requisites scheduled in such a way that students MUST attend all 4 years (see this recent thread: "Complications from transferring to a 4-year school…")

 

 

If your thinking here is to earn college credits as inexpensively as possible, then your cheapest options are:

 

1. free DE -- through free/low-cost program to high schoolers, if your area offers it

2. CLEP -- about $100-$125 per test + about $25 for study materials per test

3. AP -- $91 per test + $$$ for study materials + possible AP class

4. 4-year degree at home through careful selection of CLEP and distance courses and going through an umbrella 4-year school that accepts it all (College Plus, or other similar business, or a DIY version) -- about $13,000-15,000 for a 4-year Bachelor's degree, earned in 2 to 2.5 years, and can be done simultaneously in the last 2 years of high school

5. full-tuition or even full-ride scholarship -- earn through stellar grades/high GPA + very high ACT/SAT score

 

 

BEST of luck as you think through all your options and decide! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[Hot Lava Mama]

Ugh.  Just Ugh.  I was hoping.  I guess the colleges already have it figured out how get the maximum amount of money from parents/students.

Thanks for the responses!  I have a lot to consider!

Hot Lava Mama

[quark]

deleted -- not relevant

[Lori D.]

Ugh.  Just Ugh.  I was hoping.  I guess the colleges already have it figured out how get the maximum amount of money from parents/students.

Thanks for the responses!  I have a lot to consider!

Hot Lava Mama

 

Don't despair or give up! :)

 

Actually, depending on the final destination 4-year college, you may very well be able to do this, and it may very well save you money. But you'll have to start digging and doing some research. What school(s) is your student planning on applying to? Start looking into their policies about AP, DE, and CLEP. 

 

What degree program is your student interested in? For each university that your student is interested in, check out the specific webpage for that degree program to see what the set-up is for the class progression -- it may be fine to knock out 2 years elsewhere and transfer in for those last 2 years.

 

Also, check out this thread for the steps in finding scholarships "Preparing for college, what scholarships/grants to apply for?", and this thread for alternative ideas for funding college: "s/o of Cautionary Tale/high college costs -- a brainstorming $$ ideas thread!" Both of those threads are in post #5 of the pinned thread at the top of the high school board, "Transcripts…Scholarships/Financial Aid… links to past threads here!"

 

Just as an encouragement -- DS only did 2 classes of DE in 12th grade, but then went on to the CC for 3 years and earned his Associate's degree and enough credits to cover gen. ed. He transferred to a 4-year university that accepted up to the maximum and all counted towards the Bachelor's degree, so he only has to go 2 years, not 4 years at the university to earn his Bachelor's. And he had such a high GPA at the CC that he earned a nearly full-tuition renewable transfer scholarship, so we are only having to cover fees, room & board and books for those 2 years (still a hefty amount!! but much more manageable).  

[G5052]

Ugh.  Just Ugh.  I was hoping.  I guess the colleges already have it figured out how get the maximum amount of money from parents/students.

Thanks for the responses!  I have a lot to consider!

Hot Lava Mama

 

This has been going on for a long, long time, and the policy of having AP credits only in high school has always been that way since the program started way back by the College Board.

 

I went to a high school 35+ years ago that had about a dozen AP classes.  My friends that went to the Ivies and other selective colleges got zero credit.  I got 15 credits at the first college I attended, and the second college made most of those electives.  In retrospect, they were right.  The classes I had to retake were a lot HARDER than my high school AP classes even though I got 4's and 5's.  I hope we never go to a nation-wide standard that makes every college exactly the same in depth and difficulty.  The choice to count or not count AP scores has to remain with the individual colleges IMHO

 

I've sat on committees with representatives from several 4-year schools in addition to the community colleges, and discussions about granting credit for a particular AP exam entirely focused on content. Not once was the budget ever brought up.  I can't speak for schools other than the two I work for, but money is not the motivation in my experience.  It's the content of the actual AP exam.

[Hot Lava Mama]

Don't despair or give up! :)

 

Actually, depending on the final destination 4-year college, you may very well be able to do this, and it may very well save you money. But you'll have to start digging and doing some research. What school(s) is your student planning on applying to? Start looking into their policies about AP, DE, and CLEP. 

 

What degree program is your student interested in? For each university that your student is interested in, check out the specific webpage for that degree program to see what the set-up is for the class progression -- it may be fine to knock out 2 years elsewhere and transfer in for those last 2 years.

 

Also, check out this thread for the steps in finding scholarships "Preparing for college, what scholarships/grants to apply for?", and this thread for alternative ideas for funding college: "s/o of Cautionary Tale/high college costs -- a brainstorming $$ ideas thread!" Both of those threads are in post #5 of the pinned thread at the top of the high school board, "Transcripts…Scholarships/Financial Aid… links to past threads here!"

 

Just as an encouragement -- DS only did 2 classes of DE in 12th grade, but then went on to the CC for 3 years and earned his Associate's degree and enough credits to cover gen. ed. He transferred to a 4-year university that accepted up to the maximum and all counted towards the Bachelor's degree, so he only has to go 2 years, not 4 years at the university to earn his Bachelor's. And he had such a high GPA at the CC that he earned a nearly full-tuition renewable transfer scholarship, so we are only having to cover fees, room & board and books for those 2 years (still a hefty amount!! but much more manageable).  

 

Thank you very much.  I was bummed.  I will look into those things.  I really appreciate your suggestions!

:)

Hot Lava Mama

[Hot Lava Mama]

This has been going on for a long, long time, and the policy of having AP credits only in high school has always been that way since the program started way back by the College Board.

 

I went to a high school 35+ years ago that had about a dozen AP classes.  My friends that went to the Ivies and other selective colleges got zero credit.  I got 15 credits at the first college I attended, and the second college made most of those electives.  In retrospect, they were right.  The classes I had to retake were a lot HARDER than my high school AP classes even though I got 4's and 5's.  I hope we never go to a nation-wide standard that makes every college exactly the same in depth and difficulty.  The choice to count or not count AP scores has to remain with the individual colleges IMHO

 

I've sat on committees with representatives from several 4-year schools in addition to the community colleges, and discussions about granting credit for a particular AP exam entirely focused on content. Not once was the budget ever brought up.  I can't speak for schools other than the two I work for, but money is not the motivation in my experience.  It's the content of the actual AP exam.

 

Well, I understand the issue with consistency of the topics.  I guess the part that I am having a hard time with is that it seems REALLY difficult to try to cut the obscene costs of a great school down.  Most want you to enter as a freshman, thereby guaranteeing at least 4 years at $20,000+/year  (actually, ds wants into Stanford, so we would be looking at $60,000+/year).  It just seems like the whole system is so rigged to separate parents/students from their money. 

 

I watched a movie called "Ivory Tower" that was discussing different ways to get a college education without going into major debt.  I think the time has come because too many people have been put into financial distress trying to give their kids a leg up.

 

Thanks for the comments.

Hot Lava Mama

 

Well, I understand the issue with consistency of the topics.  I guess the part that I am having a hard time with is that it seems REALLY difficult to try to cut the obscene costs of a great school down.  Most want you to enter as a freshman, thereby guaranteeing at least 4 years at $20,000+/year  (actually, ds wants into Stanford, so we would be looking at $60,000+/year).  It just seems like the whole system is so rigged to separate parents/students from their money. 

 

 

Well, the bad news is it is probably vanishingly unlikely to be able to transfer from a community college into Stanford.  The good news is that places like Stanford have astronomical endowments, so the "list price" may be very different from what you actually end up paying.

[8filltheheart]

Well, I understand the issue with consistency of the topics.  I guess the part that I am having a hard time with is that it seems REALLY difficult to try to cut the obscene costs of a great school down.  Most want you to enter as a freshman, thereby guaranteeing at least 4 years at $20,000+/year  (actually, ds wants into Stanford, so we would be looking at $60,000+/year).  It just seems like the whole system is so rigged to separate parents/students from their money. 

 

I watched a movie called "Ivory Tower" that was discussing different ways to get a college education without going into major debt.  I think the time has come because too many people have been put into financial distress trying to give their kids a leg up.

 

Thanks for the comments.

Hot Lava Mama

 

 

If your son wants to go to Stanford type school, your plan is not a good one.  Tippy top schools rarely accept any outside credit and expect students to complete all 4 yrs there.  Their transfer acceptance rates are lower than their freshman acceptance rates. But, there are lots of options between Stanford level schools and the local CC and none of them have to cost $80,000-240,000.  If a student is strong enough to get accepted to Stanford, they are most likely qualified for full-rides at lower ranked schools.   And most definitely qualified for full tuition at a very large number.

 

fwiw, I think they are "great schools."  What I don't buy is that only the top 20-50 universities out of several thousand in this country offer a great education.

 

[go_go_gadget]

UC Berkeley is just as good a university as Stanford, by every qualitative measure including prestige, and does accept transfer students as juniors. Transfer to a top university is entirely possible, just not for that particular school. However, your son's chances of being accepted at any top-tier university would be much greater if he were to spend his high school time becoming an absolutely outstanding, memorable candidate than if he were to spend those years trying to get part of college out of the way. Universities don't give brownie points to candidates who do reasonably well at a CC while high school-aged, and once at Big Famous University, early-entry students will be competing for grades with students who have two years' or more worth of experience and maturity. At smaller or otherwise less competitive schools, that would be less of an issue.

 

You probably need to choose between early entry and a top school. Unless your son is outrageously gifted, staggeringly advanced in his academics, and extraordinarily lucky (because there's still a big chance factor in admissions at tippy-top schools), trying to rush him through will be a handicap to his goals. It's one thing to challenge a student by having them take a few DE classes a year, but a full load of college courses at 16 is risky. Not impossible, but risky. On the other hand, if early entry is the higher priority, your plan is solid for entrance into a less selective school.

 

ETA: I think I just assumed you were planning to do the two years of CC as his last two years of high school because you were talking about AP''s. If you weren't trying for early entry, disregard most of this post. UC Berkeley (and UCLA, for that matter), are still very desirable transfer options either way, though.

[Lori D.]

(actually, ds wants into Stanford...)

 

Well, okay, this completely changes things again. :)

 

As the previous posters mentioned, CLEP and dual enrollment will NOT fly for shaving off time and money to attend Stanford and other ivies and top tier / competitive / selective schools -- BUT, many of these schools DO have some hefty merit aid and need-based aid to hand out due to their big endowment funds, so it may still be a possibility for your DS financially.

 

However, if he really wants Stanford, it's going to require some "elbow grease" and dedicated work on DS's part; here are Stanford's entrance statistics (for 2014-2015):

 

minimum courses required for admission:

4 credits = English

4 credits = Math

3+ credits = Science, with labs

3+ credits = Foreign language (same language)

3+ credits = Social Studies

unspecified amounts, but also looking for credits in: Academic Electives, Computer Science, Visual / Performing Arts, and "Other"

 

(And realistically, to be competitive: 5 Math credits, 5 Science credits, and at least 4 each English, Foreign Language, and Social Studies, plus 1-2 credits Computer Science, and a few credits in Arts and Other.)

 

Need high GPA:

- 93% of freshman admitted to Stanford had a high school GPA of 3.75+

- 4% of freshman admitted to Standford had a high school GPA of 3.5 - 3.74

- 4.16 (weighted) GPA = average high school GPA of freshman admitted to Stanford

  (weighted comes from AP classes and dual enrollment classes)

 

Need high ACT/SAT test score:

- minimum ACT score = 31

- competitive ACT score = 34

- minimum SAT score = 680 (reading) 700 (math)

- competitive SAT score = 780 (reading) 790 (math)

   (note: perfect ACT = 36 / perfect SAT reading or math section = 800)

 

Odds of being admitted = 3.8%

43,167 freshmen applied

2,154 freshmen were admitted

695 people wait-listed -- 7 actually admitted

1677 freshman actually enrolled

 

What this means is that students coming into Stanford have extremely high test scores -- say, an ACT score of 34-36. If you have an ACT score of, say, 30-33, you're running right in the middle to back of the pack of students applying to Stanford.

 

However, look around at other schools and see where a score of 30-33 puts you in the top 25% of incoming freshmen -- or even better, top 10% or top 5%. If your ACT/SAT score is in that school's top 5%, that will very likely land you a full scholarship.

 

 

Since you know DS is interested in Stanford, start on the rigorous track now. Know what you're up against. APs are going to be a must; dual enrollment will not be a transfer help BUT could help with increased rigor and getting increased credit load for admission requirements.

 

Help DS work for the goal of Stanford -- BUT, don't let your family put all the eggs in that basket alone. The acceptance rate at Stanford is SO small, even with crazy high grades, scores, and talent. So also help him be realistic and broaden his college interests to include some other schools that would also be a great fit not only in his interests, but in the academic/financial equation. Being a big fish in a small pond can have some very nice perks. ;)

 

The next 2.5 years will be exciting! BEST of luck of as you and DS work, research and plan! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[Arcadia]

 

Thinking ahead to ds college years (he is in 10th right now, 11th in the fall), could he do his GE courses in a community college, while also doing AP courses at home for other classes, then take the AP tests, and have these transfer to a really good college? 

 

My local school district allows the public high school students to take dual enrollment classes at the assigned community college for free if the district does not offer a course that would satisfy part of the A-G requirements list (I am in California). So a neighbor's child is doing music theory at the community college for free since my district does not offer music or art as a subject.  The music theory at community college would satisfy the A-G requirements for fine arts.  The high school students apply as freshman and not transfers though into UC and CSU systems as well as private or out of state schools. My district puts Algebra 1 (7th) and Geometry (8th) done in middle school as well as any dual enrolled courses into the high school transcript. No idea on how GPA is computed other than Algebra and Geometry taken in middle school are not included in the computation.

[chiguirre]

However, your son's chances of being accepted at any top-tier university would be much greater if he were to spend his high school time becoming an absolutely outstanding, memorable candidate than if he were to spend those years trying to get part of college out of the way.

For a school like Stanford, AP and DE is a sine qua non condition to be competitive. You also have to stand out of the crowd with extracurriculars, recommendations and the essay.

 

The other important detail is that the Ivies and many of the tippy-top schools only award need-based aid. If your FAFSA says you can pay, you pay full freight no matter how awesome your sports, academics or volunteer work. If you want merit aid, you need to drop down a bit in rankings. That's a very worthwhile trade-off for many (most?) families, but it does depend on your particular circumstances so do your research.

[8filltheheart]

HotLavaMama

 

You don't have any courses listed in your siggie, so it is really hard to offer much insight. I guess the biggest question you and your ds need to explore is just how competitive he is for admissions. Is he on an advanced track? Are all of his classes honors worthy? Will his jr and sr course loads have multiple AP classes? (I am not sure about Stanford and seeing DE classes as equivalent. You would need to investigate that before selecting a route.) Will he have not only rock solid advanced academics, but matching test scores (like subject tests), LOR, awards/honors, and ECs?

 

You might want to search posts by both HogGirl and Kathy in Richmond. Both have kids that were accepted at Stanford. I know that Kathy's dd had multiple math courses beyond AP cal bc, had multiple AP science classes, AP Latin, AP English, test scores for AMC, MathCamp attendance, etc. I am not sure about Cynthia's ds. It sounds like he was heavily involved in activities geared toward political science with honors and awards (but I might be mistaken about that. My memories are vague. But substantial awards, for sure, just not sure of the field.) He is also a gifted and accelerated student.

 

Only reason I thought to pose those questions for you to consider is bc you mentioned originally that you were hoping he could attend a CC for his first 2 yrs of college and then transfer. I thought it might be worth keeping in mind that most kids at Stanford would already have close to the equivalent covered in high school. Kids with credit for numerous "harder" AP courses could have close to jr status at schools that give credit for AP course work. (A 5 on AP cal Bc and AP chem alone are the equivalent of 16 cr hrs at many schools.) Post AP level course work is also a very likely scenario amg the accepted students. Acceptance is definitely competitive.

 

Just for your info.

[EndOfOrdinary]

Our community college is not fabulous, but Ds can get an Associates Degree for just the cost of books if he does full DE. My original concern was that many students who did this got what I would consider a sub par education compared to the varying diverse options out there. As great as free college sounds we would be trading an education for a cheap degree. That bothered me.

 

We recently found out that the CC accepted up to 60 credits of AP testing. That would mean If Ds played his cards right, he could test out of all but two quarters of his AA degree. That is an extreme circumstance, but it is hypothetically possible. This would also leave those test scores establish for other colleges to look at. Since AP courses mainly opt you out of your survey courses, they would not "double count" for credit, but they would be a standout for much better schools than the CC.

 

At least around here, there are direct policies for what you ae talking about.