Chrysalis Academy Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 Actually, I'm not exactly sure if it rises to the level of a woe yet, she's only 8, but I want to do a "what's normal" check-in! My 3rd grader is an excellent reader, good fluency and comprehension. She can get words down on paper just fine, and has no memory or mechanical issues with writing. But, she can't spell on her own, and it's really holding her back with independent writing. She still asks me how to spell almost every single word. Last night it was "year" and "eve" and "beach" - she got New. These are words I feel like she should be able to spell. We're nearly through with LOE, and I think it did really help with phonics, but I don't feel like the spelling rules are sticking at all. Or at least they aren't transferring into writing. And I feel like it's holding her back, because she's reluctant to write unless I'm right there with her helping her with spelling. So she doesn't ever want to put her ideas/words down on paper without spelling help, she's handicapped in writing by her inability to spell the words she wants to write. So I wonder how normal this is? I wonder if it will just click at some point, or if I need to be doing something different? I'm not sure whether to run through LOE again, using the advanced spelling lists and reviewing all the rules. I don't know whether to try something traditional/drill-based like Spelling workout. I have How To Teach Spelling and we could go through that along with or instead of another pass through LOE. Thoughts? Suggestions? Reassurances? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deerforest Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 Well, not sure if it's normal but my DD has had a similar experience. We did LOE completely plus the advanced lists, plus Megawords I and one of the How to Teach Spelling levels. She did fine in the lessons but it never carried over to her writing. This year I was so tired of teaching spelling that we tried Phonetic Zoo so she could do it independently. She told me she was so relieved to stop using programs that had all those rules. (!!!!) She gets almost all the Phonetic Zoo words right on the first go through. She can suddenly spell when she writes. Alas, she is still a reluctant writer, though! I honestly just think everything finally just snapped into place in her head. We had a lot of those big learning leaps this year. She's 10 and a 5th grader. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 Spalding. It isn't "normal," but it isn't the end of the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soror Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 Well, ds is similar he is a natural with some words but there is some things he just cannot remember. I took him through Essentials too and in the end I didn't notice any improvement. He is now doing Apples and Pears as it seems to work well for the hard cases. I wouldn't do HTTS or Spalding, its the same method. Of course it could just be an age thing, I don't know. It is too soon to tell with ds if A&P is working for him but I figure its my best shot, otherwise we're relying on a good spell checker. Have you tried teaching her typing? Typing has helped ds with his writing immensely and although spellcheck has its fault it does help get them going and relieve a bit of pressure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CardinalAlt Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 Could it just be a perfectionism issue? I have a reluctant writer/speller, and it took some practice for her to be willing to write and potentially make mistakes. When she does write, I'm usually comforted to see that her mistakes are in the realm of normal. It's just her resistance to getting started that makes things seem extreme! We do Friday free writes where I encourage her not to worry about spelling, just to get her ideas down on paper, as well as journaling. White boards are preferred because it's easier for her to fix mistakes on them than paper. Often I offer to write a "word bank" for her if there are a few words she knows she'll need ahead of time. But usually even then or when she asks for help in the middle, if I encourage her to try the first sound, etc., she knows more than she thinks she does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrysalis Academy Posted January 3, 2015 Author Share Posted January 3, 2015 Yes, definitely perfectionism is an issue. I'm not sure whether to encourage her to just use phonetic spelling for the sake of getting her ideas down. If we do that, I'm not sure whether to go back and correct it, because she's hyper-conscious about spelling. But I don't want to leave it uncorrected either . . . I do often use the questions as a chance to practice sounding it out, remembering the rules, etc., but that can get old, and inhibiting, when it's something like writing a letter to her grandparents, or a thank you card, or something. If I turn every time she asks me a question into a spelling lesson, it makes her even more reluctant to write on her own, KWIM? Honestly, it's more of a psychological issue than a language issue at this point. I'm not sure how to proceed in a way that encourages her to become a writer, which is my goal, but which also teaches her correct mechanics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanikit Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 Like CardinalAlt I also do a word bank for my child - usually I ask her what she might write and we do it all orally and I write down certain words she might not know how to spell. She will give me a whole long piece when doing this and then when writing I tell her the minimum number of sentences she has to write and she shortens and makes it all much easier when writing - and that is fine for now. I know her thoughts are structured, that she can use good vocabulary as it comes out in her speech and while she does not remember everything she told me, having some key words also helps her. Then I can leave her alone to write - any spelling errors she makes then I leave to prevent it becoming an issue and just teach them during spelling. If she really gets stuck then she can still ask me how to spell words, but she must try by herself first on a scrap piece of paper and those words she asked me to spell for her get a spelling lesson added to them - also like CardinalAlt I ask her for the sounds she knows, possibly show her the syllabification and fill in any parts she will not know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clear Creek Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 Well, not sure if it's normal but my DD has had a similar experience. We did LOE completely plus the advanced lists, plus Megawords I and one of the How to Teach Spelling levels. She did fine in the lessons but it never carried over to her writing. This year I was so tired of teaching spelling that we tried Phonetic Zoo so she could do it independently. She told me she was so relieved to stop using programs that had all those rules. (!!!!) She gets almost all the Phonetic Zoo words right on the first go through. She can suddenly spell when she writes. Alas, she is still a reluctant writer, though! I honestly just think everything finally just snapped into place in her head. We had a lot of those big learning leaps this year. She's 10 and a 5th grader. I have one of those. We used different curriculum, but we ended up at the same spot - things just clicked for her in 5th grade. I don't know if she is a late bloomer and the words finally started sticking in her head, or if she decided that I was going to continue to keep arguing about the correct spelling of words and she might as well give in and start spelling the words my way, but good spelling has finally carried over into her writing. I understand the worrying, though; my other two began first grade being able to spell most common words, so a child that still could not correctly spell "they" at the end of 4th grade caused some panic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CardinalAlt Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 Yes, definitely perfectionism is an issue. I'm not sure whether to encourage her to just use phonetic spelling for the sake of getting her ideas down. If we do that, I'm not sure whether to go back and correct it, because she's hyper-conscious about spelling. But I don't want to leave it uncorrected either . . . I do often use the questions as a chance to practice sounding it out, remembering the rules, etc., but that can get old, and inhibiting, when it's something like writing a letter to her grandparents, or a thank you card, or something. If I turn every time she asks me a question into a spelling lesson, it makes her even more reluctant to write on her own, KWIM? Honestly, it's more of a psychological issue than a language issue at this point. I'm not sure how to proceed in a way that encourages her to become a writer, which is my goal, but which also teaches her correct mechanics. It's definitely a balance for us, because like you said, it's so psychological! Personally I don't correct journals or free-writes because that's confidence building for her, that she can communicate in written form -and even enjoy it! - even if it's not perfect. With the word banks, she'll have more correct spellings than errors. I don't do spontaneous spelling lessons if I sense it will stress her out. The confidence has translated into more willingness to go for it with letters and other spontaneous writing, and there she's usually motivated to revise her work when she's done. Assignments, I usually request revision of spelling after I appreciate the content of her communication. Sometimes offer her the chance to look for her own mistake after I give her a hint, and often that seems to encourage her, too - that she's capable of finding her own mistakes. These days we're doing spelling in the context of copy work and dictation a la Bravewriter, and I've really enjoyed that approach of applied, contextualized language arts! She studies words she doesn't know from a passage on flash cards after we talk through the phonetics and works with them on Spelling City as well. I want to try reverse dictation occasionally in the coming months to mix things up... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Alpha List: Dictionary Focusing on the Logic of English Spelling I used this with my dd at that stage. I *wanted* to encourage her to ask because of course when they're asking they're not proceeding incorrectly! My suggestion though is that you get her eyes checked. She may have a visual memory or visual processing issue. Go through a developmental optometrist, tell them what's up, and ask them to screen her during a regular appointment. They have a longer appointment but I'm just talking a regular one. Then you can decide if you like the doc and whether you need to do the full eval. My dd had issues with carryover and it turned out her visual memory was very, very poor. After VT, she was a totally new learner. www.COVD.org is where you find a developmental optometrist. Are you doing dictation? We did copious amounts when dd was that age, like a full page written daily. Seriously. Writing for pleasure didn't sprout for her till 7th when we were doing metronome work. I think that's a pretty common time to sprout. I wouldn't assume that her struggles now reflect how writing will always be for her. Dd is now an avid writer, when at that age she was telling me she'd never be like me, hahahaha... The rules of SWR will be almost identical to what you've done in AAS. Might take a minute to explain to her the markings as they'll be somewhat different, but they're different marks for the same rules, meaning she can use it seamlessly after you explain. And no, you don't rule your way into spelling. If she's at all VSL, you can harness visualization, having her seeing the word in her mind and spell it aloud backwords. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Tick Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 That was normal here. Last year my then third graders couldn't spell anywhere close to their reading level. We've been doing spelling three times a week since first grade (although I regret those first two years somewhat). I feel like this year spelling has really stated to carry over to writing and become easier overall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloha2U Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 If not the Spalding method via SWR or WRTR, then I'd recommend another pass (or more) through LOE—using the advanced spelling lists and reviewing all the rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 If not the Spalding method via SWR or WRTR, then I'd recommend another pass (or more) through LOE—using the advanced spelling lists and reviewing all the rules. SWR is not Spalding in any way, shape or form. WRTR is the manual for the Spalding Method, the only manual for the Spalding Method. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerryAtHope Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I bet she needs more repetition and review. You could try going through it again with the harder words--or even reviewing the easier ones that she still finds hard--and incorporate more review along the way (make sure she's really solid on the rules and when she misses a word because of a rule, ask her if she can think of a word that applies--help her start to transition to analyzing words, make up word cards and review them a few at a time until she can spell the words easily, etc...) We used AAS which is mastery-based and incorporates cards for review--not sure what tools LOE incorporates, but maybe you can adjust it to her needs. 8 is still very young--basically a baby-writer, so I wouldn't expect much in the way of spelling yet! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebbyribs Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Hmmm - I think my 8yo is less of a perfectionist (or used to the adults in the house being busy) - she might ask me how to spell those words if she was making a card for someone, but she'd happily write "yeer", "eve", and "beech" on a note for me or for a school assignment, knowing that we'll go over the spelling together for most of her school work. I don't have a great idea of where she "should be" for 8 years old / 3rd grade, but she's made progress in the past year. I'm seeing that she retains a lot of the rules we've covered in spelling but has problems when there are multiple ways to spell a sound and she doesn't know a rule to decide which one to use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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