Hostage situation in Sydney, Australia

[Joker]

I'm not sure what it says about me that whenever anyone here uses FFS (this is not the first time it's been used on this forum as I've seen it several times) that I giggle. :001_unsure: I hear it in my head as my grandmother's frustrated voice. She didn't have the cleanest vocabulary but she sure was awesome.

 

FTR, I've been reading this thread all along and Sadie hasn't offended me, a Christian, at all.

[maize]

Non-Aussies seem to be a bit - sensitive- to colourful language.

 

A respected poster used the 'f' word here in the last few weeks without the hand slap. It's hardly beyond the pale.

If this is the post I am remembering I think it was eventually moderated out.

 

I think that Americans in general (including myself here) are more sensitive about language. I've had to explain to some shocked mamas who saw the Facebook feed of our kids' dance teacher that the level of language showing up regularly was more common and accepted in other parts of the world.

 

I heard more (English) swearing in continental Europe than I've ever heard in the US, though I don't know how much of that is the influence of Hollywood on English language acquisition ;)

[umsami]

Harris said, "And the crucial point of confusion is that we have been sold this meme of ‘Islamophobia,’ where every criticism of the doctrine of Islam gets conflated with bigotry toward Muslims as people. That’s intellectually ridiculous."

 

There doesn't exist the same expectation of being labeled Christophobic or antisemitic for a critic to argue against these religions' theological arguments as there is the expectation for being identified as Islamophobic for criticizing Islam. It should go without saying that you don't have to be a fan of Islam but can resist any pull towards being bigoted towards Muslims personally. And yet, you make this distinction (and assume others don't?). Harris is pointing out that this conflation is made often enough in liberal circles to make it noteworthy.

 

Disagree.  Not everything critical of Islam is termed Islamophobia.  Islamophobia has a certain flavor, a certain desire to encourage more hatred of Islam and Muslims.  Posting things which are patently false, or encourage biased, or based on an extremely small subset of Muslims and holding them up to be the standard is Islamophobic.  There tends to be a common occurrence of associating all Muslims with actions of certain groups....or even countries.  Saudi Arabia has a population of about 20 million Muslims (there rest are expats.)  They make up around 1.5% of all Muslims in the world.  Yet, they are held as the example by many (both Muslim and non-Muslims.)  

 

In the States, I do see a tendency for everyone critical of the Israeli government's actions as being anti-Semitic. 

I do not view people who criticize the Saudis, Egyptians, Yemeni, Malaysians, Bangladeshi or whatever government's actions....whether or not they feel those actions are justified by Islam or not...as Islamophobes.  Want to criticize the Sultan of Brunei's new laws? Let me join them.  But don't imply that all Muslims agree with how he acts.   I really do find it troubling when people assume that actions that partake in some Muslim countries  pertain to all Muslims.  For example, FGM is widely prevalent in Egypt.  Doesn't matter if the girl is Christian/Coptic or Muslim.  Doesn't matter that the Grand Mufi made a fatwa against it... or that it's illegal.  It still goes on.  It predates Islam and Christianity.   So, I have no problem with people who criticize it.  I find it barbaric.  If anybody gets near my daughter's cl*toris with a scalpel, I would physically harm them.  But when one implies that it's a Muslim tradition or common among Muslims, I take issue.  It's common in Africa among people of many faiths...it is not exclusive to Muslims.  It is exceedingly rare in non-North African Muslim countries.  Implying that all Muslims believe that cutting off their daughter's clit*ris is somehow part of their religion is wrong.

 

My issue with Harris is that he does want to lump all Muslims together.  From his website, http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/in-defense-of-profiling

 

"We should profile Muslims, or anyone who looks like he or she could conceivably be Muslim, and we should be honest about it. And, again, I wouldn’t put someone who looks like me entirely outside the bull’s-eye (after all, what would Adam Gadahn look like if he cleaned himself up?) But there are people who do not stand a chance of being jihadists, and TSA screeners can know this at a glance.

 

Needless to say, a devout Muslim should be free to show up at the airport dressed like Osama bin Laden, and his wives should be free to wear burqas. But if their goal is simply to travel safely and efficiently, wouldn’t they, too, want a system that notices people like themselves? At a minimum, wouldn’t they want a system that anti-profiles—applying the minimum of attention to people who obviously pose no threat? "

 

Even his implication that a devout Muslim would dress like Osama bin Laden and his wives would wear burqas is offensive.  He may be trying to be funny, but it's offensive.  He's equating any person who wears traditional Gulf/Muslim dress with one of the most evil men of the past century.  His whole reference to burqas is offensive.  Burqas are worn by an extremely extremely small minority of Muslim women in the world, yet he lumps them all together.  The French Niqab ban was estimated to affect anywhere from 200-2000 women in a country of 66 million.  (And no, burqa and niqab are not really the same thing, but similar.)

 

From a practical standpoint, though, I think his idea is stupid.  If I was going to plan a terrorist attack in an airport or using a plane, do you think I'd wear my hijab?  Would I wear a niqab and abaya? Only if I was the stupidest terrorist ever.  Instead, I'd dress like umsami the normal American Mom.  The Boston Marathon bombers weren't wearing thobee.  They had backpacks and baseball caps and looked like every other guy watching the marathon.  There was a case in the 80s, I believe, where a terrorist got a Western girlfriend pregnant, and planned to put explosives in her suitcase.   So...if you're looking for the guy named Abdullah, wearing a thobe...you're probably missing out.  He's the least likely suspect.   

 

To his credit, I think, even as an atheist, he would like to see the progressives be more popular than the Salafi/Wahabis.  But the way he goes about it...calling Islam as "the motherlode of bad ideas".... implying that 20% of Muslims are Jihadists or Islamists (and yes, there is a difference, but he lumps them all together)....is not the way to do it.

 

Many years ago, a Canadian woman named Irshad Manji wrote a very good book with a very bad title.  It was called "The Trouble with Islam."  Why was it a bad title? Because it alienated the people she really wrote the book for....Muslims.  There was so much good in the book....such great debate and points... but 99.9% of Muslims I know wouldn't even pick it up because of the title.

I don't think very many Muslims will ever hear any of Sam Harris's good ideas, because he's lumped them all as potential terrorists.  He's said too many inflammatory things for his ideas to even be considered.  That's sad.  It's similar to Ayaan Hirsi Ali.  She has an organization which is working to end FGM.  That's wonderful.  I'd love to hook up with her with the organization I work with.  Politically, I can't.  She's said to many hateful things about Islam which lump all Muslims together. It hurts her organization, because so many Muslims want nothing to do with her...yet there is a FGM problem in certain communities like the Egyptian and Somali ones.   I've broached a few people about having Muslims publicly apologize to her for the harm that was done to her in the name of Islam....regardless if it works...because to me, she's no different than other victims I've worked with.  It's received mixed reception.  She's said a lot of hurtful things that people aren't willing to overlook.  For me, I really don't care.  Apologizing costs me nothing, and it may help her heal.  

 

There are women who leave Islam because their husbands abused them in the name of Islam...or because they believe that their religion or God sanctioned such abuse.  Can I blame them for leaving? Of course not.   Frankly, I'm more surprised by the ones who can find a glimmer of faith to hold on to after all of the abuse they've been through.

 

Anyway....bowing out of this thread.  It's been interesting.   I've rambled on enough.  Thankfully, the Sydney hostage situation ended far better than I had feared (not to minimize the loss of two innocent lives, but I expected far more.)  I have no plans to kill anybody, for the record.  I truly do believe the Qur'an which says there is no compulsion in religion...and that means, in my book, the ability to not believe.   I have no desire to chop off hands of people who steal...although when I read some child sexual abuse cases...yeah...at that moment...I have a strong desire for Shariah law to chop off something.  

 

Peace.

[albeto.]

Disagree.  Not everything critical of Islam is termed Islamophobia.

No one is making this argument.

 

Islamophobia has a certain flavor, a certain desire to encourage more hatred of Islam and Muslims.  Posting things which are patently false, or encourage biased, or based on an extremely small subset of Muslims and holding them up to be the standard is Islamophobic.  There tends to be a common occurrence of associating all Muslims with actions of certain groups....or even countries.  Saudi Arabia has a population of about 20 million Muslims (there rest are expats.)  They make up around 1.5% of all Muslims in the world.  Yet, they are held as the example by many (both Muslim and non-Muslims.)

No one is suggesting bigotry against Muslims doesn't exist.

 

In the States, I do see a tendency for everyone critical of the Israeli government's actions as being anti-Semitic.

In the quote upthread, Harris is talking about this trend in liberal circles. There's not a trend in the liberal circles to which [i think] Harris is referring (journalism, blogs, speaking tours, books, etc) to identify those critical of Judaism as being antisemitic. There is a trend in these same circles to identify those critical of Islam as being Islamophobic, but I don't know enough about Harris' argument to really contribute more.

 

My issue with Harris is that he does want to lump all Muslims together.  From his website, http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/in-defense-of-profiling...

I have a problem with this argument, too, for reasons I posted earlier.

 

From a practical standpoint, though, I think his idea is stupid.  If I was going to plan a terrorist attack in an airport or using a plane, do you think I'd wear my hijab?  Would I wear a niqab and abaya? Only if I was the stupidest terrorist ever.

That's another reason his argument isn't persuasive to me, either. It does seem uncharacteristically short-sighted. Perhaps there's more to his argument, I don't know. I haven't looked into it and I'm not terribly interested in doing so, if I may be frank.

 

I don't think very many Muslims will ever hear any of Sam Harris's good ideas, because he's lumped them all as potential terrorists.... It's similar to Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

 

The main idea that I take away from Harris is the danger of relying on faith-based beliefs as reliable sources of information, understanding of the natural world, and consequently, determining moral values. He doesn't restrict himself to just this component, but I think it's the largest component, the most profound contributions he's made to society. His books,  The End of Faith and Letter to a Christian Nation are absolutely compelling, not only to me but to a great number of people, a number that is growing as respect for religion is dwindling. This argument is being heard, certainly by atheist audiences. Eventually these ideas make their way to those who are questioning the reliability and value of faith. You may hear this same message in a way that may be more palatable to you, but Harris is a fundamental reason for that - he's able to articulate this idea an effective way.

 

I know who Ali is, but have not yet read anything from or about her. I suspect the same process is going on here; speakers appeal to certain audiences, and not to others. If an idea has merit though, it will be passed on, regardless of the character of the messenger. It may take time, but good ideas are hard to keep down.

 

Anyway....bowing out of this thread.  It's been interesting.   I've rambled on enough.  Thankfully, the Sidney hostage situation ended far better than I had feared (not to minimize the loss of two innocent lives, but I expected far more.)  I have no plans to kill anybody, for the record.  I truly do believe the Qur'an which says there is no compulsion in religion...and that means, in my book, the ability to not believe.   I have no desire to chop off hands of people who steal...although when I read some child sexual abuse cases...yeah...at that moment...I have a strong desire for Shariah law to chop off something.  

 

Peace.

Yours is an insightful and welcome voice to hear in the crowd. Your "rambling" is pretty universally welcomed around here, I imagine.

 

:)

[Stacia]

The horrific events of this week are heartbreaking. For all. Truly heartbreaking.

 

:grouphug: 

 

And Negin has experienced personal experience with Muslim extremists so perhaps she should be given the same consideration. 

 

I agree. Negin & her family have also been personally affected by horrific events. Imo, to refer to the events in her life as occurring because of "freaky, nutcase murderers" is  diminishing what she & her family have gone through. I don't really equate a revolution with an odd, one-time event. Revolutions are bloody & messy & often result in widespread, ongoing changes that impact lives at the time (injury & death, among others) & for generations to come (including long-term rule in place that forces others to emigrate, never to return to a 'home' country again). These impacts are true & real in her case. Even though many on this thread have been hurting this week, I think there has been a lack of grace (not to mention some pretty harsh assumptions made) for even acknowledging Negin's right to be upset for living through events that most of us will be fortunate enough never to have to endure.

 

There's just so much raw pain on this thread...

 

Wishing peace & empathy to all. :grouphug:
 

[Rosie_0801]

. 

 

[umsami]

Negin, I'm sorry for what your family went through.  I'm sorry for the loss of life, the terror, and the loss of property.  I'm sorry that it was done with my religion as an excuse.  

 

I'd love to pretend that these things have never happened in the name of Islam or any other faith, but that's not true.  DH is Egyptian.  Right across the street from where he grew up is a synagogue.  It is guarded (and has been since the 50s) by the two police officers, all day, every day.  He says that a few times per year, visitors from Israel come to visit it.  The Jewish population of Egypt, which brought so much to the Egyptian community and had been there for thousands of years, was kicked out after the Suez Canal crisis.  They were forced to give their businesses to the state, stripped of their citizenship, and were allowed to leave the country with basically a suitcase and a small amount of cash.  I know many families lost everything.  I worry about something similar happening to the Copts.  Neither is sanctioned by Islam, but that doesn't mean it won't happen again.   While there seems to be a trend in some Muslim countries to think that solving their problems will happen by going back to the 7th century, I'd rather they follow the Golden Age of Islam, when tolerance, science, and art lead to their success.

[Negin]

And Negin has experienced personal experience with Muslim extremists so perhaps she should be given the same consideration. 

 

Thank you again.  :grouphug:

 

Besides you are not allowed to use acronyms of which I do not understand. That is the rule. That I just made. 

:lol: I like your rule. 

 

 

I agree. Negin & her family have also been personally affected by horrific events. Imo, to refer to the events in her life as occurring because of "freaky, nutcase murderers" is  diminishing what she & her family have gone through. 

 

:grouphug:   :grouphug:   :grouphug:

 

Thank you also. 

[OneStepAtATime]

Negin, I am so sorry you have tragically lost relatives in a horrific event. I can't even imagine what that feels like, and I sure understand that such a thing would color the lens through which you view other, seemingly related things. That's a normal reaction to trauma. 

 

I think it's worth repeating that most victims of Islamic extremists are Muslims; Muslims who are just as horrified at the actions of Muslim extremists as the rest of us, and Muslims who find the world they inhibit to be increasingly hostile. The progressive Muslims I've met on these boards are some of the kindest, most empathetic people I know. They and others like them are innocent of these horrors. Yet, they have to carry the consequences, the burden, of what extremists do, sometimes in their names. They have to carry this burden in addition to the burden of grief resulting from the actions of these extremists, who truly have nothing to do with mainstream Islam.

 

Shouldn't we, non-Muslim people who want to live in a safe and peaceful world, stand shoulder-to-shoulder with our Muslim sisters and brothers who also want to live in a safe and peaceful world? Otherizing people who are in so many ways more like us than not like us perpetuates the cycle of hate, rather than making the world a better place. 

:iagree:   

[Negin]

:drool5: