dyscalculia

[ChemMommy]

Pass the "Bad Homeschooling Mommy" award this way. 13 years of schooling 18 yo dd at home and just realized that she struggles in math NOT because she isn't trying but because she has dyscalculia.  We are trying to get her tested, but she

 

• can't copy a phone number down without reversing numbers
• struggles to know whether 9999 or 10,000 is bigger
• struggles to do more than one math operation in an equation
• cannot add a column of numbers like 200 + 450 + 700 + 300.
• does not understand place value
• cannot make change
• cannot read a clock with hands

 

She scored a 30 in english on her ACT and a 29 on Reading but a 19 in math and a 21 in science.  She is not dumb.

 

So, where do you go to get a LD diagnosed?  There is a reading therapy center in town that says it can treat dyscalculia, but it will cost at least $7500 and before I pay that, I'd like advice from others who have BTDT!

 

 

Thanks!!!

 

Pam

[OneStepAtATime]

Possibly a neuropsychologist could diagnose but dyscalculia is not well understood yet.  You would need to find one that has had experience with this.  I would probably get a full neuropsychologist work up before even considering the reading center.  And I don't know that I would even consider using the reading center at that price, unless you can find independent confirmation from a reliable source that they truly have extensive experience with dyscalculia.  Even then, at that price I would seriously hesitate without some sort of independently assessed proven track record for genuinely helping with what is essentially a life long neurological challenge (that can be even more difficult to deal with than dyslexia in many ways).

 

I suggest you look at what Brian Butterworth has published on the matter.  David Sousa's How the Brain Learns Mathematics might help.

 

Certainly running your daughter through Ronit Bird's books might help her with gaining some basic skills.  One of the things your daughter is missing is almost certainly subitization skills.  My DD was in much the same situation as yours.  We started over with the Ronit Bird books coupled with a math program called Dynamo math, then started her back at 2nd grade math through CLE and moved forward from there.  Things are finally starting to gel.  Yes she is in 8th grade doing 3rd grade math but at least now she CAN do 3rd grade math and so far we are moving at a pretty fast clip.  I anticipate she will move into 4th grade math something in February, possibly sooner.  

 

I also recommend reading My 13th Winter, written by a very intelligent, even gifted young woman who also has dyscalculia.  Doesn't really give any great info on how to deal with it but it does help with perspective.  Your daughter might like reading it, too, at some point.

 

Hugs.  I know this is a challenging place to be.  Best wishes.

[Heathermomster]

Any reading center that makes those kinds of promises about dyscalculia is full of it.  I am about to leave the casa but will get back to you later..

[Lecka]

Is it Lindamood Bell?  If it is -- you do not have to take her there or spend $7,500, their programs are available for purchase, they do have a math program (their math program does not have the reputation of some of their other programs -- not that it is bad, but it is just one option, there are other options out there).

 

But I agree -- there is no need to go there and pay that amount of money.  It is fine for people who choose to use that service, but it is NOT like "oh, no, we have got to do that, it is the only option." 

 

Then there is also a very high chance, that they are just taking people's money and may not even be providing that much of a service. 

 

But don't beat yourself up!  Don't forget to take credit for all the good things you have done as a parent and teacher, no one can be perfect.  You are looking into it now, and that is the important thing. 

 

(Also do not buy too much into marketing from tutoring centers..... they have to make it sound like they are the only answer and that they have got a super-secret, super-special program ------ how else would they be able to stay in business?  I think some are fine and some are horrible, but even the fine ones need to keep bringing in clients.  But none of them have a "secret" that only they are able to do.) 

[PeterPan]

Any reading center that makes those kinds of promises about dyscalculia is full of it.  I am about to leave the casa but will get back to you later..

That's polite and extremely UNDER-STATED to say the least.

 

What you're looking for is a good neuropsychologist, someone well-respected for dyslexia, ADHD, that kind of thing.  See who there is in your state and be willing to travel if necessary.  

 

The answer may be more complex than what you're thinking, and I don't see how you begin therapy/interventions till you know what the problems actually are.  

 

While you're at it, when was her last annual vision exam?  If it has been a while, I'd get her eyes checked by a developmental optometrist, just with that regular visit (in our area $60) but ask them to SCREEN her for the developmental vision stuff (convergence, tracking, etc.).  There *can* be more explanations for what you're seeing than you expect.  I'm not saying some is going on, just that it's one of those things you could eliminate.  You would find a developmental optometrist through COVD.

 

Let us know how it goes!!  You aren't the first person to get testing done in 11th or 12th, mercy.   :)  Seriously, read SusanC's posts from LC a couple years back.  She ended up doing VT and all sorts of things that senior year.  Better now than never!  But you need to START by getting a full psych eval.  You can't even decide if your $7500 is being well-spent and hitting the right problem if you don't know what the problem is.  You want an unbiased, objective evaluation, something that will give her official DSM labels that she can take to college to get accommodations.  

 

Keep us posted!  It will be interesting to hear what they say.  My ds has had some oddities with math, but as of right now where things are at he didn't get that label.  But what I'm using with him is the stuff you use with dyscalculics (Ronit Bird) and the psych was a total DORK and didn't listen at all. So I have no clue how he'll present in the long run and how they actually know if it is or not over the long run.  I'll be very interested to hear what your psych says and how they parse it.   :)

[Heathermomster]

Pass the "Bad Homeschooling Mommy" award this way. 13 years of schooling 18 yo dd at home and just realized that she struggles in math NOT because she isn't trying but because she has dyscalculia. We are trying to get her tested, but she

 

• can't copy a phone number down without reversing numbers
• struggles to know whether 9999 or 10,000 is bigger
• struggles to do more than one math operation in an equation
• cannot add a column of numbers like 200 + 450 + 700 + 300.
• does not understand place value
• cannot make change
• cannot read a clock with hands

She scored a 30 in english on her ACT and a 29 on Reading but a 19 in math and a 21 in science. She is not dumb.

 

So, where do you go to get a LD diagnosed? There is a reading therapy center in town that says it can treat dyscalculia, but it will cost at least $7500 and before I pay that, I'd like advice from others who have BTDT!

 

 

Thanks!!!

 

Pam

Hi Pam,

 

Given your child's ACT scores, it is clear that she is extremely intelligent and has been using her intellectual strengths to compensate.

 

Call around to some private neuropsychs (NP) and speak with them. You are going to need to find someone that is very experienced with the gifted population and ask them specifically about the testing process. An NP, who has experience with gifted students, will be able to better tease out the achievement test results.

 

Sometimes people seek testing and discover that the issue is something besides maths disability, such as NVLD. A full eval should sort that out.

 

Do not be mad at yourself. If maths disability is the issue, your DD has compensated extremely well. Many dyscalculiacs can only dream about achieving your DD's ACT scores.

 

I generally recommend two books, Sousa's How the Brain Learns Mathematics and Ronit Bird's Overcoming Difficulties with Number.

 

Does your DD count on her fingers? Has she mastered her multiplication tables? Does she know fractions? Can she recognize a dot pattern with 4 dots without counting? Answers to those questions will enable us to guide you better.

[ChemMommy]

 

Does your DD count on her fingers? Has she mastered her multiplication tables? Does she know fractions? Can she recognize a dot pattern with 4 dots without counting? Answers to those questions will enable us to guide you better.

 

DD is 18 and a freshman in college.  We live in rural Minnesota, so we'll need to travel to see a neuropsych.

 

Not really a finger counter.

Has not mastered the multiplication tables....she could not do 8x3 yesterday.

Has no clue what the fraction things are, or decimals, or percentages.

Not sure what she'd say about the dot pattern. I'll ask her when she gets home from swing dance.

 

Thanks for the book recommendations. If you think of anything else, please post.

[Heathermomster]

If she doesn't use her fingers to count, that is good. The Ronit Bird book may seem babyish at first. I have used it for 4 years now with DS. That book contains a listing of all the pre-skills required for multiplication. We started with place value activities and filled in any gaps. The Sousa book taught me how to approach DS during learning episodes.

 

You likely know this....The NP eval with diagnosis can be get your DD classroom accommodations at the university.

[OneStepAtATime]

I was curious, OP, since your daughter did well on the ACT and is now attending college, what was it that made things click for you in terms of deciding your child probably has a learning challenge?  I apologize if the question is too personal.  I just wondered what happened to change your perspective.  I knew my DD was struggling with math and reading for years but it took a specific tipping point to get me to seek evaluations and question if there was more going on.  I was just curious if you had one, too.

[ChemMommy]

She was taking accounting and spending hours on the homework. And yet, she could verbalize what the accounting principles were and what column things went in. On the exam, though, it was covered in math errors, but no accounting errors.  She was very discouraged because she would do the hw for hours and make mistake after mistake entering the answers into the on-line hw system.  What I asked her more, she said that she wasn't sure she understood accounting or not because she was making so many errors and the errors were in math seemingly.

 

Then, I thought back over teaching her math and realized that the very first lesson, place value, lasted 4 months and she still barely understood the concept.  I found a quickie screening test on-line and we did it together. That's when I found out that she couldn't do the things I listed above. It just clicked that the kid wasn't resistant to math as much as she was unable to DO math because she had no idea what the numbers did.  She's been saying it for year; I just didn't hear it.

[ChemMommy]

Will any of the testing or therapy be covered by insurance???? Someone told me to plan on taking out a loan to pay for all this and to expect a large bill.

[Heathermomster]

The costs for us ran about $1800, and we used our SSA.

[PeterPan]

A hospital psych will bill 2-3 X per hour what a private psych will.  If you're paying for it yourself, go private.  They usually have an all-inclusive cost, so you know what the bill is.  I'm sure it varies with the state as far as what the going rate is.  Usually that all inclusive cost reflects the # hours they are billing for.  So for instance our cost was $2100 and the psych, because extremely popular, is $250/hour.  So do the math and that shows you how many hours he's billing for.  If another psych quotes you $1000 and is also billing $250/hour, that means they're doing dramatically less testing.  

 

You want to make sure they do enough testing to dig in on the issues.  A neuropsych typically will do twice as much testing as a clinical psych, but ask.  It really will vary with the psych.

[Timberly]

.

[OneStepAtATime]

She was taking accounting and spending hours on the homework. And yet, she could verbalize what the accounting principles were and what column things went in. On the exam, though, it was covered in math errors, but no accounting errors.  She was very discouraged because she would do the hw for hours and make mistake after mistake entering the answers into the on-line hw system.  What I asked her more, she said that she wasn't sure she understood accounting or not because she was making so many errors and the errors were in math seemingly.

 

Then, I thought back over teaching her math and realized that the very first lesson, place value, lasted 4 months and she still barely understood the concept.  I found a quickie screening test on-line and we did it together. That's when I found out that she couldn't do the things I listed above. It just clicked that the kid wasn't resistant to math as much as she was unable to DO math because she had no idea what the numbers did.  She's been saying it for year; I just didn't hear it.

Thanks for the clarification.  Your daughter is obviously quite intelligent.  Hugs to you Mom for working so hard with her for so long.

 

I think the book My 13th Winter that I linked up thread would very much speak to you as the parent of a child that struggles in this way.  I encourage you to read that book if you ever have the opportunity to do so.  My mother and I found it very enlightening.

[Heathermomster]

I am going to throw out some resources.  Perhaps, you or someone else can work out how to apply the concepts.  My DS requires steady review.

 

The following video touched upon the need for manipulatives and dot pattern activities:

 

http://www.dystalk.com/talks/97-dyscalculia-teaching-amp-help

 

Here is an example of a place value activity...

http://www.classroomfreebiestoo.com/2013/03/place-value-freebie.html

 

The sheets are a little babyish.  I created my own using Power Point, laminated them, and then used dice to roll the numbers to fill in the place values using MUS blocks (ones, tens, and the 100's flats).  I prefer MUS blocks due to their color, and they are great for integer math.  The ability to compose and decompose numbers is important.  Here's a link to explain what I am talking about.  DS uses this skill constantly and applies it to lattice multiplication, the area model, and the galley method.

 

Lining up multidigit numbers to add can be a chore, so we use 1/2" grid paper printed in light gray.  

 

As I read your description of your DD, she sounds like she has a strong narrative memory.  My son uses process mnemonics for fractions, decimals, and algebra concepts.

 

Can't think of anything else.  This ordeal must be very painful for your DD.  Is she looking at other degree fields?

 

 

ETA:  Sometimes people find Landmark School to be helpful.  I have no experience with their math book.

 

 

[geodob]

Hi Pam,

For a diagnosis,  you just need the  Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale (WAIS) test.

Which is a general cognitive ability test.

Where the sub-tests can provide a diagnosis of  a 'Math Learning Disorder'.

Which provides legal recognition as a 'Disability'.

With the legal rights that this entitles one to.

 

But current testing, wont provide any clear explanation of a Math Learning Disorder, let alone Dyscalculia.

Where underlying this, is a difficulty with Spacial thinking.

Which is what we use to concieve of quantities.

While we learn these words and symbols that we call numbers.

In the same way that we these words: Red, Blue, Yellow for colors.

If our eyes can only see in monochrome, and not see colors?

What do these words Red, Blue, Yellow actually mean?

 

But just as no $7,500 program can fix an inability to see of concieve of colors?

It can't fix the inability to concieve of quantities.

To concieve of bigger and smaller?

 

Though what a diagnosis provides, is a legal right to identify and do math calculations in ones own way.

To make use of currently available technology.

[PeterPan]

What geodob is talking about, that number words actually don't MEAN anything to the person, is how ds is (was).  Ronit Bird has been really good for us.  We spent months going through each number, subitizing it, getting it to where the word means something.  Sousa talks about this in his book, how that is in the Broca's area of the brain, the same place where the dyslexia, apraxia, etc. is, while actually reading the number is in a totally different part of the brain.  Sousa just mentions it quickly and yet it finally explained a lot for me.