Does this sound like too much? 5th grade

[joysworld]

I'm planning for next year.

 

Wordly wise 5

Cap w&r book 3

Treasured conversation

Aas

R&s English 5

Mm

Sotw2

Bfsu

Telling gods story 2

[Haiku]

I think you are way too language arts heavy. You have three writing programs plus an intense spelling program and vocab. I would pick ONE writing program. R&S will take care of grammar and writing with one curriculum. I would ditch the other two.

[Ellie]

I think you are way too language arts heavy. You have three writing programs plus an intense spelling program and vocab. I would pick ONE writing program. R&S will take care of grammar and writing with one curriculum. I would ditch the other two.

 

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

[joysworld]

I thought it was.

[joysworld]

Neighbor now in fourth grade we are using

cap fables (just switched)

R&s 4

aas 4

Sotw 1

Mm

Bfsu

Telling gods story 1

 

Plus he reads out loud for thirty minutes.

He reads out loud because he struggles with comprehension and inference. A friend recommended wordly wise to help with that.

[kiana]

So why add in another writing program on top of that?

 

There are multiple good programs. You can't do them all. You have to pick one and go with it. Sometimes this necessitates looking at a program and saying "I love that program, but what we're doing now is working great so I am going to ignore it."

 

The rest of your lineup is just fine btw, it's just language arts that's really too heavy. Look at your lineup -- you've got more language arts programs scheduled than everything else put together. 

[joysworld]

I wouldn't be adding another writing program I would be adding wordly wise.

 

Cap w&r and tc arent going to be done concurrently. I would do cap then when that's finished we would do tc which would take us into summer which is fine because we school year round with little breaks.

[Haiku]

Cap w&r and tc arent going to be done concurrently. I would do cap then when that's finished we would do tc which would take us into summer which is fine because we school year round with little breaks.

 

That is still two writing programs at once because R&S is a complete writing program. That's a LOT of your school year spent on writing. Is there a specific reason you want so much focus on writing?

[Kristie in Florida]

We use a writing program and R&S for grammar, so we skip the writing portion in R&S. Perhaps the OP does too?

[Farrar]

I would either do R&S or do TC and CAP. Not both, at least, not unless the OP is planning to steal bits and make her own hybrid. I never know for sure what folks mean when they list that they're doing all the programs and the kitchen sink. When it's really the whole thing, it's too much, but if you're drawing on some parts and not others, then it seems more reasonable.

[joysworld]

There's writing in r&s? I thought it was only grammar? The only writing in there is to rewrite a sentence correctly or diagramming. I don't see how that's a writing program?

[Kristie in Florida]

It has composition assignments.

[joysworld]

I had no idea because we haven't had any compisition assignments yet. I'm only in book 3, a little over half way. When do they start composition? I only want it for grammar. Is it more composition than grammar in level 5? If it is, I need to find another program that's just grammar. If it's not and still has a good portion of grammar, I can just skip the composition.

[SilverMoon]

The composition lessons in R&S are generally marked with a specific shape by the title in the table of contents, and the lessons themselves have a picture border.

 

If the composition lessons bother you they are easily skipped, but they are worthwhile lessons. Not all of the composition lessons have actual writing project assignments, and writing out the grammar exercises counts as part of composition.

[SilverMoon]

Fwiw, we've primarily done R&S orally with a separate writing program over the years. My kids are awesome at grammar and most of them write for enjoyment. *shrug*

 

Also, CAP recommends staggering weeks or lessons of W&R with a grammar program, and one book is intended to fill one semester.

 

 

Otherwise... SOTW was getting too young for my kids by 5th. You might watch for that and have a more mature spine chosen for plan b.

 

I don't see how a vocab workbook can help that much with inference or comprehension? Maybe Reasoning and Reading by EPS (CAP recommendation) is what you're looking for? It's more logic based, using reading samples as the medium. Reading lots of high quality literature and discussing it is what helped my kids the most.

[Ellie]

I had no idea because we haven't had any compisition assignments yet. I'm only in book 3, a little over half way. When do they start composition? I only want it for grammar. Is it more composition than grammar in level 5? If it is, I need to find another program that's just grammar. If it's not and still has a good portion of grammar, I can just skip the composition.

 

All the writing counts as writing, even it if isn't a specific composition lesson, unless your dc does everything orally. For example, in Unit 1, children learn the different kinds of sentences and how to punctuate and capitalize words properly, plus they learn how to proofread. That is writing. If children don't know how to write basic sentences, they won't be able to put them together in a paragraph. Unit 2 teaches nouns and pronouns and commas, which expands their writing ability. Unit 3 teaches correct verb usage, noun-verb agreement, and simple diagramming. The children are now ready, at the end of that unit, to put their sentences together into a group called a paragraph. It would not be possible to jump right into paragraphs without the preparation. The next unit teaches adverbs and adjectives, and at the end of the unit the children are ready to begin writing stories. The children are now ready for the last unit, which teaches them to use their words more descriptively, as well as how to write simple letters, how to make introductions and use the telephone (which are uses of language), and how to write poetry.

 

I don't know how one would decide which parts of "Beginning Wisely" to skip and which ones to use. :-)

 

If you want only grammar, my recommendation would be to choose something that is only grammar, such as Easy Grammar.

[joysworld]

I don't know either, just what my friend said. I asked another friend and she suggested Inference Jones by the critical thinking company. I read the reviews on it and there was a review of someone who used it with their son who has aspergers and raved about it. So I think I'm going to use that and not wordly wise. I'll do the beginner one this year and level 1 next year.

[Haiku]

If you only want grammar, I suggest Hake Grammar and Writing (I think it's now called Saxon Grammar and Writing). It's as thorough as R&S, and the books are organized around themes. It also has a writing component, but it is in a separate slim workbook that you cab either not buy or, if you buy the package (which includes an extra practices workbook), just not use.

[Meadowlark]

I've been following this thread because I have no idea what direction to go for 3rd grade. So, are you all saying that R&S IS both grammar AND writing? As in, I could keep AAS and use this for my other L.A. Component? Or do I need to add in CAP or something else? The samples online honestly confuse me.

[joysworld]

My dd is in second grade and is using r&s 2 and wwe2. Next year she'll use r&s 3 and a writing program.

 

Imo, r&s is not a writing program at least not with r&s 2&3. 2&3 are about sentence structure. To me, that's grammar.

[Haiku]

When you are just learning to write, sentence structure is writing. You can't write anything if you can't structure a sentence well. I'm confused though. If your dd is in 2nd grade, why are you planning R&S 5 for next year?

[joysworld]

No, r&s 5 would be for my DS. I only brought up my dd because she's closer in age to the pp.

[Kristie in Florida]

Ellie has reminded me just how entwined writing is in the grammar of R&S English, which makes sense. Looking back, we didn't skip as much as I thought we did, last year in 4. 

 

I think all your choices for LA would compliment each other. 

[Syllieann]

I don't know either, just what my friend said. I asked another friend and she suggested Inference Jones by the critical thinking company. I read the reviews on it and there was a review of someone who used it with their son who has aspergers and raved about it. So I think I'm going to use that and not wordly wise. I'll do the beginner one this year and level 1 next year.

Reading comprehension consists mainly of decoding and vocabulary. I see you have Aas planned, which takes care of decoding. Bringing vocabulary at least to grade level is the other big ticket thing you can do. I'm sure that's why she suggested wordly wise. Idk if ww is the best choice as I haven't used it, but vocabulary should be addressed explicitly if it is below grade level.

[Ellie]

I've been following this thread because I have no idea what direction to go for 3rd grade. So, are you all saying that R&S IS both grammar AND writing? As in, I could keep AAS and use this for my other L.A. Component? Or do I need to add in CAP or something else? The samples online honestly confuse me.

 

That's exactly what it means. And it is why it is called "English" and not merely "grammar." ;-) 

 

If you'd like to see what is covered in R&S's English series (and the other texts), request a free scope and sequence from the publisher by calling (606) 522-4348. You can also request the curriculum samples. Perhaps if you hold them in your hand they will make more sense. :-) What I posted above is what I read from the table of contents included in the 3rd grade curriculum sample.

[Ellie]

My dd is in second grade and is using r&s 2 and wwe2. Next year she'll use r&s 3 and a writing program.

 

Imo, r&s is not a writing program at least not with r&s 2&3. 2&3 are about sentence structure. To me, that's grammar.

 

The first unit in "Preparing to Build," R&S's second grade English text, starts off with the children learning what sentences are. Lesson titles include "Starting Sentences Correctly," "Beginning and Ending Sentences," Building More Sentences," and "Writing What we Know," Writing Our Answers," "Changing Word Orders," Making Sentences," and "Writing More Sentences." How is that "grammar" and not "writing"? The units where children learn how to use nouns and pronouns and adjectives and adverbs--grammar--include assignments where they have to actually write sentences. How is that not writing? Unit 5 Introduces the concept of putting sentences together in paragraphs, which they could not do if they had not already learned nouns and pronouns and verbs and adjectives and adverbs and number and more. How is *that* not writing?

 

Every single lesson teaches children how to use their language. IMHO, when R&S is done orally instead of in writing, much of its value is watered down, but if someone manages to get through it admittedly less-than-thrilling approach :-) he will be a skilled writer.

[FairProspects]

You could use Wordly Wise 3000 online if you want to make it independent. My boys really need the extra vocab work and by using the online program we have been able to fit it in without adding teacher time.

[joysworld]

I guess I see writing as writing your own thoughts. And grammar and as making sure those thoughts are written correctly. The two work together, but for some reason I think of r&s as grammar and not writing.

[Ellie]

I guess I see writing as writing your own thoughts. And grammar and as making sure those thoughts are written correctly. The two work together, but for some reason I think of r&s as grammar and not writing.

 

But how does one actually *learn* to *write*? If one does not know how to put words together coherently, how can one write? Without instruction of some sort in using words, using a variety of words, using words in proper order, grouping sentences that address the same topic into paragraphs, putting things in order as they happen...how many people can do that intuitively, without some sort of instruction or modeling? At what point does the "grammar" become "writing"? 

 

Why do all the things children write in their R&S lessons not count as "writing"?  How can that be?

[joysworld]

Because the writing in r&s is rewriting a sentence correctly, not writing your own thoughts. That's what I consider writing. They definitely work together. Without grammar, children can still write well just because of reading. I don't know, can't really explain it, but to me grammar is about a well structured sentence and writing is about coming up with thoughts to put on paper.

 

And I don't have my kids write in r&s. Only when they need to diagram a sentence or rewrite a sentence correctly. The other writing is just answering questions, and they don't even have to be in complete sentences.

[Ellie]

Because the writing in r&s is rewriting a sentence correctly, not writing your own thoughts. That's what I consider writing. They definitely work together. Without grammar, children can still write well just because of reading. I don't know, can't really explain it, but to me grammar is about a well structured sentence and writing is about coming up with thoughts to put on paper.

 

And I don't have my kids write in r&s. Only when they need to diagram a sentence or rewrite a sentence correctly. The other writing is just answering questions, and they don't even have to be in complete sentences.

 

Your kids, your school. :-)

 

However, no, the writing in R&S is not just rewriting a sentence correctly. And it's too bad you don't have your children do the assignments in writing (all of the assignments, not just the ones that are explicitly labeled "writing"). You should definitely find something other than R&S because you are not using it to its fullest. And that's ok. Millions of children learn to write well without ever having seen a R&S textbook, but you should look for something that fits your philosophy better. :-)

[Clear Creek]

I had no idea because we haven't had any compisition assignments yet. I'm only in book 3, a little over half way. When do they start composition? I only want it for grammar. Is it more composition than grammar in level 5? If it is, I need to find another program that's just grammar. If it's not and still has a good portion of grammar, I can just skip the composition.

 

The writing lessons in level 3 begin in unit 3 with Meeting the Paragraph, Writing Sentences in Correct Order, The Topic of the Paragraph, and Choosing a Good Title. Unit 4 includes writing lessons on Writing a Story from Pictures, Using Words to Make Pictures, Writing Smoothly, and Sharing an Experience. Unit 5 includes lessons on Describing a Thing, Describing a Place, Describing a Person, How to Do Something, The Parts and Form of a Friendly Letter, Writing to Share With Others, Writing a Thank-you Letter, and Writing Poetry.

 

Books four and up all have writing lessons throughout the books. You can either skip the writing lessons (which include instructions in outlining, writing different types of paragraphs, writing book reports, writing poetry, and writing essays) and use a different writing curriculum, or you can use the writing lessons that you think are beneficial.

[Sahamamama]

My oldest is a 4th grader, ;) and I haven't started planning yet (!), but your plan looks good to me. Here's what you have, in blue (my notes are in green):

 

Bible: TGS

Literature: _____________ (anything for Literature?)

Math: MM

History: SOTW

Geography: ______________ (in conjunction with SOTW?)

Science: BFSU

Art & Music: ________________ (either, both, or neither?)

 

English

Reading: _____________ (something lined up for Guided Reading*)

Spelling: AAS

Vocabulary: WW5

Grammar: RS5 (pick & choose writing assignments, if any appeal to you or seem worthwhile)--Or, you could switch to FLL, which is easier to streamline to be "just grammar." Simply eliminate the copywork, dictations, narrations, and poetry memorization from FLL, and you have "just grammar."

Composition: CAP + TC (alternate by semester or week? pull elements and lessons from both?)

 

I don't think it's too much writing, if you're not trying to just get through TC and CAP, but rather use them as tools to teach.

 

This year for Composition we're doing a hybrid of CAP + WWE + "occasional other things." That last category includes creative writing, poetry, letter writing, report writing, outlining, list making. Instead of trying to get through a particular course or product, we have a set number of writing sessions each week. We work on whatever we choose (mostly I choose). Our main course this year is CAP, our vitamin pill is WWE, and our dessert is the "occasional other" -- something we want to do and we're not going to miss out on because it's not in a purchased program.

 

For my 4th grader, it became more productive to focus on Composition-as-an-Activity, rather than Composition-as-a-Course. That is, "Writing" is no longer inextricably connected with just WWE or just _________. I wanted her to see that it's more than that one thing, that one way of going about writing. She was beginning to think that Writing = WWE. This has cured her of that notion.

 

The variety breaks up the monotony of doing one program. It also is more engaging for both of us, because WWE was getting to be a yawn, CAP all the time would be annoying, and "other things" could be too unstructured if that was all we aimed at.

 

I guess I just don't see how "picking one and sticking with it" gets a teacher farther along than having more tools in the box? You are the teacher! Make a decision about the year's goals and the appropriate workload, and then use whatever materials you choose to facilitate those.

 

For your 5th grade line-up, you could combine/alternate CAP + TC + any writing assignments in R&S that are worth doing. On your planning grid for each week, you could plot out how many "sessions" you want, and then plug in the assignments as you go. Anyway, something similar to that is working here for 4th grade.

 

*Guided Reading--You mentioned he struggles with comprehension and inference. IME, the best thing to strengthen these is to do "explained reading." That is, as you read together, ask him if he understands and if not, explain things to him. What does this word mean? What does that idiom mean? Is that character sincere or hiding something? Should that statement be taken literally? What support does the author provide for that assertion? Is this opinion or fact? How do you know? And so on. Don't do this for everything you read, or it'll beat him up, but try on some readings to "dig" a little. At other times, have him read aloud to you for fluency, so he doesn't read mechanically or without proper phrasing and expression. We like this set for Guided Reading. Also, McGuffey's readers are good, if you can handle them. [Edited to add: I know you weren't asking about this, but since you mentioned that he struggles with comprehension and inference, I thought I'd post about what I've learned can help. IME, something like WW will build vocabulary, but that is not the same thing. For many students, the best help for comprehension is a teacher who explains things -- especially the things that are unclear! No workbook can do that, because no workbook can know what is unclear to your particular student. One-on-one explanations build understanding.] HTH.

 

Edited: CAP went out the window.

[Haiku]

Because the writing in r&s is rewriting a sentence correctly, not writing your own thoughts. That's what I consider writing. They definitely work together. Without grammar, children can still write well just because of reading. 

 

This is simply a difference in philosophy. A program such as Bravewriter would agree with you; the author of Bravewriter believes that students develop an ear for language that will allow them to express their thoughts well.

 

I, and SWB, and other people who approach writing from a classical bent, disagree with that (to varying degrees, and I can't claim to speak for SWB or anyone but myself). In my opinion, a student who can't construct a clear, effective, precise sentence and organize those sentences into a structured paragraph cannot effectively write. 

 

This is the parts-to-whole method, where the "grammar" of writing (not the grammar of a language, but the foundational principles of the subject) is taught before the finished product. A program like Bravewriter, by contrast, is a whole-to-parts program that focuses on the big picture.

 

I used to be an editor, and I encountered many writers who believed they had a good ear for language and wrote well when, in fact, their writing was riddled with grammar and syntactic and clarity and unity mistakes.

 

I was just looking through my son's writing book, which is Writing Skills from EPS. (I wasn't looking at it because of this thread, but it did bring this thread to mind). The first section of the book focuses on parts of speech, even though it is not a grammar book. In the introduction it specifically states that unless students have facility with the parts of speech and how to use them, they won't be able to effectively write.

 

In the end, you have to decide which style resonates with you and go with it. But the classical homeschoolers on this board will likely advocate for the parts-to-whole method, which is what R&S teaches: first learn how to effectively structure a sentence and a paragraph, then focus on what you have to say. And, as several have pointed out, your dd simply hasn't yet reached the composition lessons in R&S.

 

Good luck, whatever you decide!

[Farrar]

This is simply a difference in philosophy. A program such as Bravewriter would agree with you; the author of Bravewriter believes that students develop an ear for language that will allow them to express their thoughts well.

 

I, and SWB, and other people who approach writing from a classical bent, disagree with that (to varying degrees, and I can't claim to speak for SWB or anyone but myself). In my opinion, a student who can't construct a clear, effective, precise sentence and organize those sentences into a structured paragraph cannot effectively write. 

 

This is the parts-to-whole method, where the "grammar" of writing (not the grammar of a language, but the foundational principles of the subject) is taught before the finished product. A program like Bravewriter, by contrast, is a whole-to-parts program that focuses on the big picture.

 

I'll disagree slightly in that there's a LOT of copywork and dictation in Bravewriter and the purpose is very similar to SWB's writing approach in that regard - it's learning from those models and taking them apart in order to understand a good sentence and paragraph. That's really what's in the Arrow issues from BW. After that, I think you're correct though - that BW focuses on honing a student's oral voice into a writing voice while SWB focuses on learning writing as a separate language through grammar.

 

In any case, I think most good approaches to writing begin with some level of modeling and mechanics, even if it's done in a pared down or more playful way. This is where I see a lot of public school approaches leaving students behind. They often want to begin solely without any level of instruction. But it seems like R&S uses grammar as an instructional tool for writing.

 

I'm with Ellie... it's ALL writing. Fifth grade, is, indeed, a good time to be looking more at students writing their own thoughts and ideas. However, I wouldn't assume that just because a program didn't include much of that in second grade that it wouldn't in fifth. It's less appropriate in second and more appropriate in fifth.

[trulycrabby]

We finished Rod and Staff 4 last summer, and are currently doing R&S 5. There is plenty of writing/composition instruction in both. Even when the assigmnent isn't specifically writing, a lesson will often require the student to create their own sentences while incorporating the lesson at hand. .

 

We do the Oral Drill, then DS10 writes out the Written Practice, Review and Practice, and Challenge exercise sections.