General poor work ethic in tweens

[WeeBeaks]

This is a general parenting question but definitely involves school too as a major component.  My son is ADHD, 12, 7th grade this year.  He has been a challenge and a half his entire life, constantly battling, his psychiatrist feels in addition to ADHD possibly bipolar or oppositional defiant disorder as a formal diagnosis and not just a character issue.  Everything he does is sloppy from his bed, his clothing, flinging the silverware from the dishwasher into the drawer and letting them land where they land instead of dividing it, handwriting poor, math work riddled with mistakes, every task assigned done less than the barest minimum, just doesn't care for anything ever.  It isn't a new problem that I can attribute to tweens, etc.  It is life long problem that unfortunately is only getting worse as we head into the tweens, and I'm dreading teens. 

 

I'm open to advice here.  I feel like I have read and attempted so many things experts feel is right and just really haven't gotten anywhere ever.  He is medicated for his variety of psychiatric issues, at what his psychiatrist does feel are optimum levels.  That gained us his not being physically threatening to me or others any longer.  He has been in an outpatient day program at the pysch hospital before on the adolescent unit for nearly a month a couple years ago without real benefit.  They agreed though his meds were optimized.  He does get behavioral therapy sessions in addition to his med treatment. 

 

The one thing he adores is his iphone (minus phone service for now).  He loves Minecraft.  Today he lost his phone for a day for failing to adequately do his 1 hour of work yesterday and thus delaying today's tasks by a day since he didn't get it down.  My logical (I hope punishment) was since he was so eager to play he skimped and cost us a day's progress he loses his phone for a day.  This led to an hour tantrum, arguing and now he is browbeating his siblings and generally being mean because he is angry.  This is typical.  It causes me to fear confrontation with him.  He used to actually hit and bite, now just uses his words and anger to intimidate and hurt.  I am very honestly a timid person and pretty easygoing so confrontation is hard for me.  I have been diagnosed PTSD from dealing with his issues and abuse of me.  So fighting him head to head 12 hours a day is killing me very literally with anxiety issues, lack of sleep, mental stress. 

 

Sorry this is so long.  Advice is often not useful without the background though.  Last year he finally had limited success with on-site classes for his charter school of 3 hours 2x a week.  What a relief for me.  My other children got to see mom smile occasionally when he was gone.  This year he is moving into 9am-3pm 2x a week on site in classes, which he actually enjoys and behaves for the most part.  His writing class there inspires him to try harder than he will for me.  The others are some fluff and some content.  I continue to provide his core math, LA, science, history, etc.  He currently gets 3 hours of structured PE per week, 1 hour of multisports (rotates) and 2 hours/week of gymnastics/parkour.

 

I would like some advice from parents who have BTDT with perhaps a very challenging child you managed to get through the teens.  Different ages/stages have always brought different issues of course.  The hormones I'm told that impact all teens may bring his bipolar if acccurately diagnosed fully into the light, or impact conduct disorder if that is what is happening.  [Psych diagnoses are tricky in kids with multiple issues going on.] 

 

Oh addendum - he is 2E.  Academic achievement is typically not a problem despite lack of any effort whatsoever.  He tests IQ very high (haven't tested in a few years but went through various neuropsychological tests to help psych diagnoses).  His charter requires standarized testing and he scores very high in nearly all areas despite his ADHD.  He whips through tests in an hour or two, alarming, but continues to excel on the scores so whatever.   He is not behind in any area, though he is falling from excels to average because of effort as workload increases.

 

Tanya

[Indian summer]

What if instead of taking away his phone for a day or a week or whatever, you take it away UNTIL he performs such n such a task to a certain standard with the right attitude. If you just keep giving it back after time has passed, he learns to do time instead of change his ways.

 

If Minecraft and the iPhone are his currency, use it to cause changes in him. His diagnoses are no excuse for poor behaviour, he is capable of getting along and doing things to an appropriate standard.

[WeeBeaks]

He doesn't get it back without doing the work.  He is out there now.  But even doing it today, what should be done yesterday, the phone doesn't come back until tomorrow because he delayed a full day.  Otherwise I am constantly hanging the thing over his head, which I feel gets less and less productive.  He hasn't in the past done well without a definitive date of return (still contingent on fixing what he did wrong).  So his "date" is written on the board so there is no argument then that it wasn't what I said, I changed the date or any other manner of arguing. 

 

I'm tired though of the carrot and the stick.  Is there hope with this type of child that I will some day not spend a good portion of my day coaxing, cajoling and punishing?  I used to just feel like an awful mother, but thankfully my other 3 are nowhere near like this.  So I'm struggling with the right combination of what to do and what is just his own personality problems.

[albeto.]

In my experience, any "currency" was immediately used against us. My child learned to play the game he'd been thrown into his whole life; Authority says Do XYZ, reward or punishment is doled out accordingly. These rewards and punishments had to do with resources out of his control, resources like phone, computer games, etc. Our kids are too clever to not see the bigger picture: Might Makes Right. If you have something someone else wants, you can manipulate them to comply. OP, it sounds like your son is learning to do this with his siblings, which is not only socially inappropriate, but ultimately ineffective (social bonds are important to humans, as we live communally, and social skills determine the kinds of relationships you'll have).

 

In another thread around here we talked about the R.O.P.E.S. book for better executive functioning. I think this is one thing that might help you help your son. Let him know just how his behaviors sabotage his goals. I would keep "currency" issues out of this, and don't hold access to things over his head for compliance if you can help it. I say this because in my experience, this provided a frustrating distraction. Arguing about access, permission, ownership, authority, etc, was just a distraction from the real issue - child was frustrated and didn't know how to get what he wanted, nor how to accept the fact that sometimes we simply don't get what we want.

 

There's a real temptation to place blame in these scenarios and I would encourage you to avoid that, as well. Instead, try and approach these things as a matter of solving problems effectively or not. Help him see why learning to play certain social games are going to help him. Explain to him they aren't really games, they're not simple manipulation, they are social skills that dictate how people are likely to respond. Bipolar issues will make this more challenging because of impulsiveness, but the more you help him see these cues, the more you help him mindfully respond, the better he will get with this skill. 

 

In the mean time, I'd let go things like making the bed and doing chores "nicely." I found that when I pulled back and saw how much my child interpreted as my attempted manipulation, I could see things from his point of view. It was more a matter of self preservation than being willfully disobedient, and knowing his anxiety triggers helped me to provide an environment with some sense of emotional safety. This took a long time, I won't lie. We also cut back on perceived manipulation so much we adopted a "radical unschooling" approach in our home. The messages we had installed in his youth were hard for him to ignore. He didn't trust us for a long time, and we didn't trust him. I suspect you know how that goes. Anyway, with increased trust, when we could eventually assume each other's requests weren't a matter of veiled manipulation, but a genuine appeal for a personal sense of emotional comfort, emotional self-preservation. We found we had started to "look out" for each other more. Doing something nicely for me was more easily tolerated than doing something as expected "or else." The same goes in both directions.

 

Keep up with the medications, and don't be afraid of puberty. It doesn't hit in one day. You'll have time to figure out what's going on and try different ways to tweak your approach as necessary. 

[Ravin]

Have you considered boarding school, perhaps one with a therapeutic support program incorporated?

 

What you describe are issues I would first address with his behavioral therapist. Working with him when he's calm and not misbehaving to decide and set fixed consequences with his input on what is "fair" might help.

[WeeBeaks]

Thank you.  This makes sense.  On a positive day, I can see he will make a good lawyer if he chooses that route because he will argue anything tirelessly down to the finest nitpicking detail.

 

_____________

Arguing about access, permission, ownership, authority, etc, was just a distraction from the real issue - child was frustrated and didn't know how to get what he wanted, nor how to accept the fact that sometimes we simply don't get what we want.

 

There's a real temptation to place blame in these scenarios and I would encourage you to avoid that, as well. Instead, try and approach these things as a matter of solving problems effectively or not. Help him see why learning to play certain social games are going to help him. Explain to him they aren't really games, they're not simple manipulation, they are social skills that dictate how people are likely to respond. Bipolar issues will make this more challenging because of impulsiveness, but the more you help him see these cues, the more you help him mindfully respond, the better he will get with this skill. 

 

 

[Tracy]

Do you have a therapist with experience in ODD or conduct disorder?  I have a friend with a child with conduct disorder, and it was absolutely imperative to have guidance from an expert.  They used a lot of contracts, and the therapist provided a lot of guidance as to how to administer it.  

[Corraleno]

I think the best way to deal with an oppositional kid is to move yourself from the "opposing team" to his team. His issues are at least as painful for him as they are for you, and he needs an ally to help him learn how to manage his difficult feelings and impulses. The fact that he can sort of do that in the co-op setting, while family life is a constant power struggle, suggests that the power struggle at home is actually preventing him from developing healthier habits rather than helping him. These kids are often anxious and very afraid of being vulnerable; they will often do things that they know perfectly well are against their self-interests — cutting off their nose to spite their face, if you will — because the fear of being vulnerable is worse than the loss of what they wanted. You will never get cooperation, let alone obedience, from him if he doesn't trust you, so I would work on building trust.

 

As a first step, I would stop bugging him about any of the things that really don't matter — if he leaves his bed unmade, or leaves his clothes in a heap on the floor, that doesn't really affect anyone else. If he doesn't care about wearing wrinkled clothes, then let him wear wrinkled clothes. Ask yourself whether each of the current sources of conflict is really worth the damage to your relationship, and try to let go of anything that's not absolutely critical. Change the goal from "controlling him" to "rebuilding the relationship" and make decisions with that goal in mind.

 

You say that he's 2E and tests very well despite not caring about school work. I'm guessing that your approach to school work at home is fairly traditional? Do you use regular curriculum, expect him to sit and do standard output, etc.? The problem is that you can't make someone care about something they truly don't care about. Some people can be forced to got through the motions because they care about punishment, but punishment rarely works with these kids, and just makes things worse. He's got two almost-full days in a school setting, which seems to be working well, so I would totally change up what you do at home. Try to find things that he does care about, that can more or less count as "school." For example, you might say that he has to choose 2 things that he wants to learn about, and he has to spend a minimum of 90 minutes/day on each of those things on the days he's not at co-op. If he likes minecraft, maybe he'd like to learn programming so he can build his own mods. If he likes Star Trek, he could read books like Star Trek & Philosophy, Science of Star Trek, teach himself Klingon (and learn grammar in the process etc. The point is to let him pick two things that he cares about, and let him teach himself about them. You stay out of the way, other than supplying resources and requiring that he spends a certain amount of time each day, as he agreed to. And if, on some days, he just sits there and stares into space for 90 minutes, that's fine — don't engage, don't try to force it. Just let him sit there. Eventually he'll discover that that's a really boring way to spend his time, with no pay-off.

 

If you're thinking "but what if he gets behind academically?," then I would suggest that he's already much much further "behind" in his development of healthy relationships and healthy ways of interacting with the world, which will have a much greater impact on his adult life than whether he completes algebra in 7th or 9th or 11th grade. You have 6 years until he turns 18, and I would focus my efforts on building trust and on giving him the skills to function in a healthy way. Better to have a healthy kid who is capable of making good choices and who starts college at 20 (or finds a career that doesn't require college), than try to force a kid to be ready for college and have him go totally off the rails as soon as he leaves home anyway.

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[WeeBeaks]

Do you have a therapist with experience in ODD or conduct disorder?  I have a friend with a child with conduct disorder, and it was absolutely imperative to have guidance from an expert.  They used a lot of contracts, and the therapist provided a lot of guidance as to how to administer it.  

 

Yes.  His therapist and psychiatrist is one and the same and in his 70s or possibly even 80s by now.  He has worked with extremely difficult, often hospitalized kids for many decades.  The homeschooled line of thought is different for him to adjust to, but he does admit after many years with our son that it seems to work for him.

[WeeBeaks]

Corraleno, that goes against most of what ODD or ADHD kids apparently need.  I'm not talking about making his bed - I don't care.  I can live with all that.  But not participating at all in any household chore whatsoever is not working for us.  A family is a unit and one member refusing to do anything is not acceptable.  I don't consider that a power struggle so much as teaching somehow how they are going to have to behave in order to live in society.  I can accept the bed thing because it only impacts him for the most part.  Refusing to help at all is different in that it impacts the whole unit.  He does share a room, so I suppose the bed impacts his brother but, since his brother doesn't care either .... that is livable.  Basic cleaning for health though is not negotiable given he also has asthma, skin allergies, etc.  So dusting has to be done for health. 

 

Curriculum - traditional?  Sometimes. We generally do living books, stories.  Classically in history in a 4-year cycle as a core but our roots were Sonlight.  Literature follows from history content.  Science he chooses.  Math he has chosen LOF and will be doing Teaching Textbooks as well.  He generally does not care and gets a lot of choice.  My problem is that even when he is allowed to choose he will not put in any effort whatsoever.  He doesn't want to learn Klingon or whatever.  He just wants to play on his phone all day.  He doesn't want to learn to program.  We did teach his last year after he expressed interested and was provided those resources.  Yes, we tried unschooling certain subjects in the past. 

 

I appreciate your input, but I'm not going that way.  It is too far off from what his pyschiatrist and experts do recommend based on his pyschiatric diagnoses.  I do thank you for reading and listening though.

[albeto.]

If you're thinking "but what if he gets behind academically?," then I would suggest that he's already much much further "behind" in his development of healthy relationships and healthy ways of interacting with the world, which will have a much greater impact on his adult life than whether he completes algebra in 7th or 9th or 11th grade. You have 6 years until he turns 18, and I would focus my efforts on building trust and on giving him the skills to function in a healthy way. Better to have a healthy kid who is capable of making good choices and who starts college at 20 (or finds a career that doesn't require college), than try to force a kid to be ready for college and have him go totally off the rails as soon as he leaves home anyway.

 

 

This was a major component for us, too Corraleno. Being on the other side of where the OP is now, it's easier for me to see how "ignoring" academic expectations in favor of restoring a relationship paid off for him and all of us. It is a huge paradigm shift to go from conventional parenting and conventional family role expectations to a more democratic style of family. I wouldn't advise anyone to jump into it, not that you did, but learning more about how these family dynamics can work may help offer a tiny inspiration to tweak one's family relationship here or there to the OP, or others in her predicament.  OP - I trust you don't think I'm trying to talk you into adopting an approach you're not comfortable with. There may be some things, some aspects you can apply in your own home, but if not, maybe someone else can walk away with a new helpful idea. Lastly, I wouldn't "unschool certain subjects." It's an awfully confusing message to kids who look at a big picture so broad we can hardly recognize it ourselves. 

[Alte Veste Academy]

I have been diagnosed PTSD from dealing with his issues and abuse of me. So fighting him head to head 12 hours a day is killing me very literally with anxiety issues, lack of sleep, mental stress.

:grouphug:

 

Are you getting treatment for this? How are you dealing with the anxiety? What do you do for stress relief? Are you seeing anyone? (Consider these questions rhetorical if you don't want to answer.) I ask because the symptoms of PTSD, anxiety, and depression (often comorbid with the two) pose an unspoken, enormous reciprocal challenge. In other words, it takes two to battle and, at this point, you are hard-wired for battle just as much as he is. It is not just his reaction to issues and stressors in the household that are in question. After years of stress, how do you deal with him? Sufferers of PTSD and anxiety typically have a hair trigger and overreact to even typical problems. And they are generally unaware that they are overreacting. I am not blaming you, don't know you, but I worry that at this point you and your son are caught in a cycle of negative interactions, both of you always on the offensive. Someone has to take a long time out. I have not dealt with such extreme challenges as yours with my own kids, but one thing I do know is that meaningful change in the parent/child relationship has to emanate from me as the adult before I can expect it from my kids. So be sure to take care of yourself, and that starts with treatment for anxiety. His improved behavior should not be the fix for that, much as it would help. Try to find your external stress switch and relocate it. Make it internal, untouchable by outside forces.

 

Also, is there anything positive in your relationship with him? Something you can build on to connection to foster connection?

[WeeBeaks]

Alte Veste Academy, I see his psychiatrist, as does my husband.  He has met with most of our family to see the group as a whole as well as the individuals to be able to treat effectively.  I like his approach in that.  Seeing each person in isolation would not give a true picture of dynamics.  I'm actually doing pretty well for the most part.  I have hobbies, friends, etc.  There are good days and bad days certainly.  I'm fortunate to have a local group of moms with kids with their own challenges, and that helps.  Parents of neurotypical kids have been critical locally in the past,  often starting with "You should just ..." followed by whatever worked for their kids.  Advice is good and fine but one solution does not fit all, especially for kids outside the norm.  And it might take 100 different solutions that only work for limited times, especially with the ODD. 

[Alte Veste Academy]

You might want to cross post to the Learning Challenges board

[raptor_dad]

Corraleno, that goes against most of what ODD or ADHD kids apparently need.

<...>

I appreciate your input, but I'm not going that way.  It is too far off from what his pyschiatrist and experts do recommend based on his pyschiatric diagnoses.  I do thank you for reading and listening though.

 

Is what you and the "experts" are doing working? If not, another approach might be worth considering.

 

My DS is perhaps mildly ASD and certainly has major anxiety issues. Following approaches like in "The Explosive Child" or whatever have just fed into the anxiety and resistance. Lowering the emotional temperature and working on issues one at a time has been helpful. Some of Correlano's advice has matched my experience.

 

If you already have a preferred approach, I sincerely wish you luck. Just don't get trapped in the diagnosis and expert advice. Sometimes there are other paths to your goals.

[Alte Veste Academy]

His therapist and psychiatrist is one and the same and in his 70s or possibly even 80s by now. He has worked with extremely difficult, often hospitalized kids for many decades.

Corraleno, that goes against most of what ODD or ADHD kids apparently need.

I really don't want to say this "out loud" because it sounds stupid and counterintuitive, but it was my first thought, and is based on my own experience working as an MSW with kids who had diagnoses similar to your son's before I had kids...

 

I worry that at his age, the therapist/psychiatrist actually has too much experience...seeing things through an outdated, oppositional, parents as authoritarians lens. Honestly, nothing Corraleno said goes against what these kids need. Do they also need firm limits? Yes. But to (kind of categorically, since you didn't respond to all of the details in her post) say your DS doesn't need an ally and to be heard is to basically ignore his needs and feelings. It sounds to me like your are viewing your DS solely through the lens of his diagnoses instead of as a boy with x, y, z needs who also happens to have these diagnoses.

 

It also seems you are taking a view of the problems as one-sided rather than relational. And I am just going to say it. Saying your other kids are not like this absolutely does not mean that these problems with your DS are not (at least partly) relational in nature. This does not mean you are an awful mother! We have different relationships with each of our kids, the success of which is dependent on many factors. People are different, so relationships and interactions are different, but there are always two people responsible for the outcome. In a parent-child relationship, I believe the parent is the more responsible party, because of maturity, experience, and the ability to see things from different points of view.

[Alte Veste Academy]

He generally does not care and gets a lot of choice. My problem is that even when he is allowed to choose he will not put in any effort whatsoever. He doesn't want to learn Klingon or whatever. He just wants to play on his phone all day. He doesn't want to learn to program. We did teach his last year after he expressed interested and was provided those resources. Yes, we tried unschooling certain subjects in the past.

Have you done any kind of scaffolding? Worked purposefully on building executive function skills (very lacking in ADHD kids)? Taught him the skills of tackling a project as a skill set in and of itself? With his diagnoses and 2E status, these are challenges he needs pointed assistance to face. Have you seen Smart But Scattered? Learning to Learn? Maybe check your library for books like these that will help you teach your DS these skills. He would probably benefit immensely from professional help in his area. Can you see if his doctor can refer you for these services?

 

Be aware that kids who repeatedly fail when they actually do try often give up or give the appearance of not caring. It is self-protective.

[WeeBeaks]

This was not his first psychiastrist.  This was probably his 5th, maybe 6th, and the very first one who truly took the time to get to know him in depth before giving any recommendations whatsoever.   And he saw a few specifically behavioral therapists as well with different approaches to therapy.  I can honestly say I'm extremely happy with his psychiatrist after seeing a fairly wide variety of the alternatives.  He is one of the most educated people I know, and very up to date. 

 

I'm feeling like I'm being attacked to a degree so am going to back off this thread for a while.  I have had enough in the past of being told that everything was either in my head (i.e., ADHD or any psychiatric diagnosis doesn't exist) or that it was all the parenting fault.  The truth?  Diet is a factor, parenting, environment, genetics.  All of it.  I'm not angry.  I know tone doesn't come through well in boards, and none of you know me personally.  Perhaps even posting was a bad idea, but I try to get a wide variety of advice for any and all sectors and evaluate whether it will fit.  Certain things I feel absolutely are wrong for him and will go with that based on advice from his health professionals and my own instinct as a parent, but that leaves open a huge variety I'm willing to try, with the encouragement and support of his health care.  But accusing me to of only seeing his diagnoses or that I'm too rigid when you don't know me at all is not helpful.  I can see that it is indeed because you don't know me that the advice is put forward --- irony.  Of course you don't know that, because this is a massive forum. 

 

Yes, I'm familiar with the parenting styles, including the autocratic and democratic styles, nonviolent communication, team building, etc., etc.  Ways of phrasing things to building a sense of unity.  It seems you (inclusive, no specific person in mind) have a vision of me dictating to this child down to the tiniest degree that isn't the case.   I'm not sure where that came from?  Moving on ... again, I appreciate putting forth viewpoints. 

[Alte Veste Academy]

I wish you and your family the best of luck. You are right that it is tricky to ask for and receive advice here sometimes, as little information about the situation can be presented in just a few posts. Add the reality that each poster views that information through the lens of her own experience and it becomes even trickier.

[raptor_dad]

 I can honestly say I'm extremely happy with his psychiatrist after seeing a fairly wide variety of the alternatives.  He is one of the most educated people I know, and very up to date. 

 

 

Great! Noone is trying to second guess you. If you have a kid with a conduct or personality disorder that must be more frustrating than any of us can see.

 

I know one or two kids with that diagnosis an it is profoundly discouraging. On the other hand, ODD is a common follow on diagnosis to ADHD. I know several kids with that diagnosis. Among others, I know one at West Point and one at Annapolis.  Yes there are barriers to Academy kids with those diagnoses but they aren't prohibitive...

 

I would carefully consider where you're at. ODD may be overdiagnosed. Regardless, it can have very good outcomes. The conduct and personality disorders require deeper intervention. With the disparate outcomes, I wouldn't want to guess wrong about the diagnosis.

[Corraleno]

Corraleno, that goes against most of what ODD or ADHD kids apparently need. 

 

In fact, I have a 2E/ADHD/SPD teen with major anxiety issues, who was hell on wheels as a toddler and young child. I pulled him out of kindergarten because he was being sent to the principal's office every single day. He was very very difficult up to the age of 6 or 7, i.e. until he was capable of discussing and understanding what some of his issues were, and how I was trying to help him. Beyond that age, we avoided the power struggles and defiance, and we are very close, largely due to the fact that he knows with absolute certainty that I am on his team and that we will deal with his issues together. I have seen the approach I described work with a number of other kids with similar issues, and Albeto has successfully parented a very oppositional child to adulthood using this sort of approach. On the other hand, I have seen near tragic results in my extended family when parents took a hard-line with an ADD/ODD child. A 6' tall teenage boy with anger issues, no impulse control, and no trust in his parents, is a loose canon to say the least; in the case of my relatives, the parents lost control of their son long before he turned 18. 

 

 

These two statements seem contradictory to me:

 

... I'm not going that way.  It is too far off from what his pyschiatrist and experts do recommend based on his pyschiatric diagnoses.

I'm open to advice here.  I feel like I have read and attempted so many things experts feel is right and just really haven't gotten anywhere ever. 

 

You say that what the psychiatrist & experts recommend has not worked at all, that things are getting worse, that you fear for his teenage years, and you are open to advice, but then you reject any and all suggestions that differ from what the experts have said you need to do. So I'm not sure what kind of advice you were hoping for?

 

I'm very sorry you are feeling attacked, but I can assure you that no one here is trying to attack you or suggest that you aren't a good mother. People are posting because we have BTDT and thought you might want to hear about approaches that have worked with our kids. I'm sure that ALL of us with non-NT kids have had the experience of being told what to do by parents of NT kids — I wish I had a nickel for every time some relative told me that all my 2E/ADHD/SPD/GAD little boy needed was "a good spanking to sort him right out."  But perhaps too many of those experiences have led you to read things into these posts that are not there.

 

Suggesting that since your current paradigm isn't working, maybe you should try a different paradigm, does not mean that anyone thinks you're a terrible mother and your son's issues are all your fault — that is not remotely what anyone is saying. All we are saying is that if being on the opposing team is not working, maybe you need to find a way to be on the same team. Maybe that process will look totally different for you than it looks for Albeto or me or anyone else here. But honestly, I think that if you cannot find a way to regain your son's trust, then you will have good reason to fear the teenage years, because there will come a time when there simply isn't any punishment you can dole out that will work.

[City Mouse]

The possible bipolar stands out for me. The violent behaviors you are describing sound way above ADHD to me.I have relatives with a son that was diagnosed as bipolar at around 8yrs old. For many years they had to keep all the knives in the house in a gun safe with a combination lock. The boy has been in and out of residential psychiatric facilities several times. His mother even had to resort to calling the police one time when he was so out of control that she was in actual fear for her and his safety(which did lead to one of his residential placements) Did his behavior ever get better? Yes, some times it is better-sometimes worse. Right now he is in a good period.

 

I feel for you. There is no easy solution. At times there may be no real solution at all.

 

If he is doing well at the school, could he attend more days?

[Upennmama]

My 12 year old dd sounds similar, although less volatile, perhaps. She's a good kid, generally obedient, does what we ask, etc, but when she is asked to do something she doesn't want there's eye rolling, arguing, complaining. It quickly escalates into yelling. She also does a half&$@ job on most tasks, and it takes tons of training to get her to take her time, do things correctly, not slack. I think it's pretty normal, it will just take lots of time and patience. Hang in there!

[OneStepAtATime]

Hugs, OP.  It sounds like you have been through a lot, for many years.  There are a lot of great posts on here.  Please don't see them as attacks on you.  We want to help.  The only help we have is sharing our experiences and thoughts.  You didn't ask for a JAWM session.  You asked for advice.  I promise we are not attacking you at all.  And are very sympathetic.  Raising a child that is NT can be challenging.  Raising a child that is not NT can up the issues of child rearing 10 fold.  And there is no parenting Teacher's Manual that clearly lays out what path to take.  I agree with others, maybe trying really hard, for an extended period, to be his advocate, his champion, the person that supports and believes in him and provides scaffolding might help. Read Smart But Scattered for Teens to possibly help with finding a positive path for his helping with chores.  I found that once I started "teaching" and supporting as we were doing chores, and providing lots of positive, structured feedback, EF issues and combative behavior seemed to smooth out considerably.  Huge hugs again, OP.  You are not a bad parent and you are in a very difficulty situation.  Best wishes.

[wallingjan]

Hugs to you. I haven't read all the responses, but I thought I would share what has helped us. My 13 yo daughter is ADHD. Not oppositional at all, but she still struggles to get things done. What has been key for her is routine. Solid routine. Get up, breakfast (with protein), exercise (sometimes she will exercise 1st) and then straight to school work. If she is having a hard time focusing, she can break for a walk or other exercise. And she loves and needs a checklist. She likes to start at the top and pound it out. If it's not on the list, forget it! Good luck!

[marlowefamily]

I have two tween boys, the oldest is just turning 12 -- From what I've noticed, this is the age when they really push to see what they can get away with and if you give them anything, they keep on pushing....so, to keep things productive, I have to combine negotiating rewards for completing all work at the end of the day with not letting them get away with _anything_ during school hours.  So, my oldest can have the playdates with friends that he wants from 3pm-6pm if all his schoolwork is completely done at a good level and if I'm happy with his effort and attitude that day, but he gets zero computer/tablets/games or fun outside of normal activities from 9am-3pm.  I'm a dad, so this is easier for me to enforce....the kids know how to get anything they want from their mom, which is probably why they test me somewhat to see if they can get away with the same stuff.