Dancing Bears? (Which Remedial Reading Program)-- X Post

[TheAttachedMama]

Hi There,

 

I asked this question in another thread, but it was sort of buried at the bottom.  So I am cross posting my question in its 'own' thread hoping the title might get more attention from those who have used the Dancing Bears program.  :) 

 

Background:

I have a son who is 7 (turns 8 in November).  In all other subjects except for reading, he is working at a 2nd grade level.  If I give him a reading test, he measures at the beginning of first grade.  He is not yet able to read 'typical' first grader readers like Green Eggs and Ham, Go Dog Go, etc.  (Although he practically has the book memorized from hearing me read it!  :)  ) 

 

I also have a daughter who is 6.  She is in first grade and reading at the same level as my son.  I give them their reading lessons separately, but they tend to be working at almost the exact pace when it comes to learning to read. 

 

We have been using All About Reading daily for the past 2-3 years.   We have completed pre-level 1, level 1, and are 1/4 of the way through level 2.  (There are 4 levels all together.)   I (very) briefly tried ETC, IEW PAL, Sonlight LA, MCP Plaid Phonics, OPGTR, and 100EZ lessons in the past when I have periodically started to worry about his lack of progress.  Hindsight 20/20---I have realized that those products were more distractions than anything else, and didn't really do anything magic.  So I've mostly stuck with AAR. 

 

I have decided to devote our summer to getting my son reading at grade level...or at least make as much progress in that area as possible.   We typically school year round, but we are going to drop almost everything else so they can focus on reading.  So I have been trying to come up with a plan that will best utilize our time from now until September.  (See my previous post.) 

 

The good news is.....My son LOVES books.  LOVES them.  I know that he would be really happy if I could somehow find a way to get him up and reading REAL books.  That would be so motivating for him.   

 

---------

NOW onto my question.....

 

This morning I have been trying to research some remedial reading programs.  (Is that what I need to be looking at by this age??)   

 

I have heard a number of people mention dancing bears.   I looked at the samples online, and it does look promising.  Of course, I am reluctant to curriculum hop again.  (That would just mean less progress made in AAR.)  On the other hand, perhaps DB introducing things at a faster rate which would get him reading quicker.   (He does seem to catch on to phonetic concepts quickly.) 

 

If I used Dancing Bears, what would you suggest I order?  Fast Track?  Book A? 

The Fast Track book says it is for students within my son's age range.  BUT it also says that if you child can not read the sentence:  "Our teacher is waiting for us in the hall" you should order book A.  (My son cannot read that sentence because those phongrams have not been introduced in AAR yet.)   However, the samples online look like they cover all of the phonograms in that sentence.  So I am a bit confused. 

 

Also, are the Dancing bears books consumable?  Could I use the same book with my daughter?  Or would they each need one? 

 

Finally, is the only thing you need the Dancing bears book?  Do they have everything you need in those books (readers, flashcards, etc.)?

 

 

[alisoncooks]

The DB workbooks are consumable... though you could cover each page with a page protector and write with a dry-erase marker.  The pages don't actually have a LOT to fill in -- the first few lessons have letter tracing, but the majority of the book has you just checking boxes (which could be re-checked in another color for a different child, for example.)

 

All you need is the workbook -- they also ship you the necessary flashcards.  There are stories in the workbook (though I think they're odd, so we read the I See Sam books.)

 

The introduction of phonemes in DB is not typical.  Right off the bat, in Book A, the child is taught:  ee, ar, sh, th, ck, or, ch, ay, oy, ai, oi, oa...  Not your standard "just starting to read" sounds. :p

 

We just finished Book A & the final lesson has sentences like:

Clair will paint the boards with a  green stain.

Last week, Joan wore her hair in a braid.

Could you put your coat next next to her cloak?

 

I don't know that DB is going to be quicker than AAR.  DB A took my DD an entire year -- and standard long vowels (CVCe) aren't introduced until Book B.  We didn't do Fast Track; my DD needed the extra practice and Book A introduced a lot of new sounds.   Fast Track combines Books A&B, I believe, with just less practice and introduces new sounds more quickly.  Have you looked at the page-by-page sample for Fast Track?  It teaches the same stuff as Level A, so if your child is quick to pick up sounds, that might be good.

 

At this point for my DD, having finished Book A (we've only gotten through a few lessons of Book B ) she is reading books like:

Little Bear

Small Pig

Fox books (Marshall)

Danny & the Dinosaur

 

So, end-of-first-grade or beginning-of-second-grade level...

[alisoncooks]

Just wanted to add one more note... :D

We started DB in August.  Before that we tried several programs (SEVERAL) and nothing got my DD past CVC words.  And she still wasn't reading those well. :(

 

I expected DD to balk at DB because it did not look fun or visually attractive.  No games.  LOTS of words on a page.  We started out slowly (half a page when needed... repeating pages that needed repeating).  

 

While she has made a lot of progress this year, she is still behind grade level.  Like I said in the above post, the books she's reading are beginning of 2nd grade at highest.  DD just turned 8, so she's a rising 3rd grader.  I would love a program to get her reading at grade level quickly -- but I've decided that "quickly" and "reading" just aren't compatible for this child.  :o   PROGRESS is the name of the game. ;)

[alisoncooks]

Background:

I have a son who is 7 (turns 8 in November).  In all other subjects except for reading, he is working at a 2nd grade level.  If I give him a reading test, he measures at the beginning of first grade.  He is not yet able to read 'typical' first grader readers like Green Eggs and Ham, Go Dog Go, etc.  (Although he practically has the book memorized from hearing me read it!  :)  ) 

 

One more note (wow, apparently I have a lot to say this a.m.)!

 

Those "typical" first grade books are chock full of high frequency words.  If you are not teaching them, then he's not going to be able to read them until he gets to the point of learning the sounds in those words. 

 

My daughter benefited from some "sight word" exposure.  She -- on her own -- developed a "thing" for Margaret Hillert books.  (DD loves dragons and Hillert has several about a boy and his dragon.)  Hillert basically built stories from high frequency word lists.  Once DD got a handful of "sight words" under her belt, it really opened up some doors, in terms of what she was able to read.  

 

Just a thought.  I'm not making a suggestion -- just stating something that helped my child.

[FO4UR]

---------

NOW onto my question.....

 

This morning I have been trying to research some remedial reading programs.  (Is that what I need to be looking at by this age??)   

 

I have heard a number of people mention dancing bears.   I looked at the samples online, and it does look promising.  Of course, I am reluctant to curriculum hop again.  (That would just mean less progress made in AAR.)  On the other hand, perhaps DB introducing things at a faster rate which would get him reading quicker.   (He does seem to catch on to phonetic concepts quickly.) 

 

If I used Dancing Bears, what would you suggest I order?  Fast Track?  Book A? 

The Fast Track book says it is for students within my son's age range.  BUT it also says that if you child can not read the sentence:  "Our teacher is waiting for us in the hall" you should order book A.  (My son cannot read that sentence because those phongrams have not been introduced in AAR yet.)   However, the samples online look like they cover all of the phonograms in that sentence.  So I am a bit confused. 

 

Also, are the Dancing bears books consumable?  Could I use the same book with my daughter?  Or would they each need one? 

 

Finally, is the only thing you need the Dancing bears book?  Do they have everything you need in those books (readers, flashcards, etc.)?

 

 

 

He's right on the line....I'd look at the first section of Fast Track and see what you think.  tbh, mine couldn't read that sentence when we started, but we did FT anyway.  It took him a long time to get through the book, but it worked wonders for him.

 

 

DB is non-consumable.  You make tick marks, but you can use green pencil for ds and purple for dd.  Give your oldest a few months headstart...

 

 

You won't need anything else.  The stories inside the book are weird.  You may want to skip those and just read books you have at home and from the library.

 

Follow the directions exactly.  The magic is in the method.

 

 

 

I'm shocked that you've been at AAR for so long and haven't covered those phonograms.  That could explain some things....

[PandaMom]

I am using DB with DD(9) and it is the only program that has worked with her and we tried several.  We both despised AAR/AAS.  She is currently half way through Book B.  I suggest starting with Book A and going through all 3 levels.  You could use the same book with both and just use different color pencils to make the check marks.  The stories in the book are strange but we both like them and I suggest reading them because they reinforce what is being taught.  We usually spend about 15 minutes a day with it.  We also use Apples and Pears spelling and ETC phonics and I find they compliment eachother at this stage.

 

Susie

DD(9)

[TheAttachedMama]

The DB workbooks are consumable... though you could cover each page with a page protector and write with a dry-erase marker.  The pages don't actually have a LOT to fill in -- the first few lessons have letter tracing, but the majority of the book has you just checking boxes (which could be re-checked in another color for a different child, for example.)

 

All you need is the workbook -- they also ship you the necessary flashcards.  There are stories in the workbook (though I think they're odd, so we read the I See Sam books.)

 

The introduction of phonemes in DB is not typical.  Right off the bat, in Book A, the child is taught:  ee, ar, sh, th, ck, or, ch, ay, oy, ai, oi, oa...  Not your standard "just starting to read" sounds. :p

I don't know that DB is going to be quicker than AAR.  DB A took my DD an entire year -- and standard long vowels (CVCe) aren't introduced until Book B. 

 

He already knows ee, sh, th, ck, ch, and CVCe words.  (Plus several others not listed:  wh, nk, and ng for example.)  He has not yet been taught ar, or, ay, oy ai, oi, or oa words.    (Again, those aren't introduced until later in the AAR program.)

 

Looking at the samples, the fast track LOOKS like it might work for him.  But, it is so hard to tell how much practice he is going to need without trying it first, you know?

 

[TheAttachedMama]

I am using DB with DD(9) and it is the only program that has worked with her and we tried several.  We both despised AAR/AAS.  She is currently half way through Book B.  I suggest starting with Book A and going through all 3 levels.  You could use the same book with both and just use different color pencils to make the check marks.  The stories in the book are strange but we both like them and I suggest reading them because they reinforce what is being taught.  We usually spend about 15 minutes a day with it.  We also use Apples and Pears spelling and ETC phonics and I find they compliment eachother at this stage.

 

Susie

DD(9)

 

How long has it taken your DD to go through a level? 

 

My concern is that if I start level A now (and each level takes a full year) that puts him still learning to read in 5th grade.  I know you can't rush things like learning to read.  BUT it really scares me that he is going to fall terribly behind because I keep fiddling around with finding a reading program.

[Michelle My Bell]

We used DB until my son hit a wall and then we switched to Reading Pathways and Explode the Code. That is going well, but slow. 

[Michelle My Bell]

This might be worth a try also. It is learning words by sight first and then you focus on phonics.  http://allinonehomeschool.com/grades/getting-ready-1/days-172-222-mcguffey-reader/

[PandaMom]

How long has it taken your DD to go through a level? 

 

My concern is that if I start level A now (and each level takes a full year) that puts him still learning to read in 5th grade.  I know you can't rush things like learning to read.  BUT it really scares me that he is going to fall terribly behind because I keep fiddling around with finding a reading program.

 

It took us a few months to go through level A.  I slowed down where we needed to so as to master it.  It definitely won't take a year for 1 level.  If he already has some experience reading then he will go through it much faster.

 

Susie

[FO4UR]

How long has it taken your DD to go through a level? 

 

My concern is that if I start level A now (and each level takes a full year) that puts him still learning to read in 5th grade.  I know you can't rush things like learning to read.  BUT it really scares me that he is going to fall terribly behind because I keep fiddling around with finding a reading program.

 

 

My dyslexic ds took 15-16mo to do Fast Track.  At the end of Fast Track, he could read any leveled reader type of book.  It was a really fast turn around, especially given that he started at a kindergarten level of reading.

 

My non-dyslexic got 1/2 way through FT and is reading any leveled reader.  We are buddy reading Stuart Little....after only 1/2 of FT.

 

 

It's going to depend upon the child, but your ds doesn't even have all of the tools (phonograms) yet.  Maybe AAR just goes too slowly?

 

 

I would set AAR down for while, and teach those phonograms fast....while waiting for Fast Track to come in.  At the rate ARR seems to be going, DB would be faster even if it does take a yr per book.  It's more than learning phonograms.  That is just the first step.

[neeko]

We started by doing 10 minutes a day, but that usually worked out to 2 pages a day.  ~140 pages in the book, if you do it 5x a week = 14 weeks.  Not so bad.  We don't usually manage more than 3x a week, but that's just us.  My 7.5yo went from barely chugging through it and calling himself a non-reader to picking up "Level 4 - Independent Reading" readers at the library about 3/4 of the way through DB A.  He's still randomly dyslexic seeming, but he's *reading* now.  We started with A, so I can't speak to the fast track version.  

 

We kind of like the goofy stories.

[rachelpants]

I was just going to say that I bought DB to use but started I See Sam for the summer....and that I wrote a little novella about it in your other thread, LOL.   I might start DB in the fall ...we will see how far DS gets with the Sam books this summer (we are half way through BRI3 as of yet).

 

Also....I feel your pain about AAR (I also feel it about AAS).  My type-A personality LOVES the program because it is SO SO thorough and organized and everything else that it is....except that it is SO SLOW! We hit the same wall in AAR2. I didn't know what else to do. DS quit progressing.  I wonder if the the scope and sequence had anything to do with it.  I also hated that since we were also using AAS (which also followed the same scope) that it was taking DS FOREVER to learn high frequency words.  It kills me to switch programs too...I hate it.

 

Good luck with whatever you decide! :)

[TheAttachedMama]

This might be a dumb question, but I just want to verify that the dancing bears / apples and pears curricula is updated with American spelling when you order in the US.  Can anyone confirm? 

[neeko]

hm.  I know we've encountered "kerb" and "mum," along with a handful of other very British words, but I haven't noticed anything else.  I wonder if this is because it has been Americanized, or if I just skimmed over it.  I'll dig my B and C out in a bit and see if no one else has an answer.  

[blessed2fosteradopt]

Mum for mom is really all that stands out in my mind. My daughter has made tremendous progress using Dancing Bears Fast Track. I picked it back up in mid March (we had completed about half prior) and her Star reading test level went from PP which is pre primer to 2.4 when administered in May.

[blessed2fosteradopt]

Also, crisps for potato chips and I think bathing costume was used once. There are a few words but nothing excessive in my opinion.

[neeko]

Also, given that my kid does not pick up on spelling from reading, at all, ever, I'm not terribly concerned about him absorbing British spelling.  He could read a word spelled correctly 6 times and then write something with that same word spelled 3 different, incorrect ways.  It is kind of amazing.  

[birchbark]

Your son is young enough that I wouldn't worry about "remedial" programs at this point. He may just not be developmentally ready. I would take the summer off, get his eyes and hearing checked if you haven't yet, and try again in the fall with one of the programs you already have. You can re-evaluate mid-year. JMO. My DS just learned to read at age seven. He went from (barely) CVC words to 3rd grade level overnight. 

 

Good luck!

[alisoncooks]

hm.  I know we've encountered "kerb" and "mum," along with a handful of other very British words, but I haven't noticed anything else.  I wonder if this is because it has been Americanized, or if I just skimmed over it.  I'll dig my B and C out in a bit and see if no one else has an answer.  

 

There are some British spellings -- kerb is the most common I remember.  I generally just cross them out and move on without them.

 

There are also words uncommonly used in American English that are used for decoding practice:  erst, pong, luff, doff, quid.  

[Storygirl]

I am using Dancing Bears A with DD who just turned nine last week. She has not been diagnosed but probably has dyslexia. I chose DB specifically because it makes the child sound out every word, and sounding out words (phonics) is what she has difficulty with. She can actually read a Magic Tree House book to herself and understand it, but she cannot sound out words, even simple ones, without context to give her hints. Dancing Bears A is very hard for her.

 

I don't know about using DB as just a regular reading program, because the approach is unique. It doesn't really tell you anything about how to teach the child the sounds (except by drilling the provided flashcards). It doesn't start with simple CVC words like "cat." To me it seems like a program to use for a child who has a very specific problem with not being able to sound out phonemes. If I were just starting to teach DD to read, book A would not be instructive enough for her, and the words it expects her to read even at the beginning are not words usually used with kids just beginning to learn to read.We are using to address a specific problem that she has.

 

Do you think your son might have a reading disability or do you think he is just going to be slower to learn? Sometimes we can't tell, but you might have a feeling about it. Sometimes kids just aren't ready to read until they are older, and then something clicks and they just get it. Other times it is something else. I suspected something else with my child by the time she was six.

 

There is a lot of benefit to spending the summer on intensive reading for him. Just a piece of mom advice -- don't allow yourself to be too upset or feel like you failed if you get to the end of the summer and find that he is still behind. Whether he just needs more time or whether he has a reading disability, a few months of extra effort is not a sure way to get him up to grade level. Don't get me wrong. It very well may work, and I hope it does. But be prepared to make a new plan in the fall if it doesn't. I spent a lot of time feeling frustrated and discouraged and unsure about how to help DD (and I haven't figured it all out and am still discouraged, as you would know if you read my posts on the learning challenges board). I am totally not an expert at all. Except that I have a lot of practice feeling like I have failed at this reading challenge. So my message to you is, whatever method you chose, DB or something else, if you work super hard all summer and do not see that he has made an equivalent gain in skills, do not be discouraged.

 

Also, there are some British words. Not a lot. When we come across one, I just tell DD that we don't use that word here, or that we spell it differently. We treat it like a nonsense word -- sound it out, but do not expect it to have a meaning. There aren't a lot of these. Just one every few days or so. The only thing I'd really watch for is the word "been" which they want you to sound out with the long e sound (like bean). Since we actually use that word with an American pronunciation, it's more of an issue. But still a little thing that wouldn't keep me from using the program.

[TheAttachedMama]

I am using Dancing Bears A with DD who just turned nine last week. She has not been diagnosed but probably has dyslexia. I chose DB specifically because it makes the child sound out every word, and sounding out words (phonics) is what she has difficulty with. She can actually read a Magic Tree House book to herself and understand it, but she cannot sound out words, even simple ones, without context to give her hints. Dancing Bears A is very hard for her.

 

I don't know about using DB as just a regular reading program, because the approach is unique. It doesn't really tell you anything about how to teach the child the sounds (except by drilling the provided flashcards). It doesn't start with simple CVC words like "cat." To me it seems like a program to use for a child who has a very specific problem with not being able to sound out phonemes. If I were just starting to teach DD to read, book A would not be instructive enough for her, and the words it expects her to read even at the beginning are not words usually used with kids just beginning to learn to read.We are using to address a specific problem that she has.

 

Do you think your son might have a reading disability or do you think he is just going to be slower to learn? Sometimes we can't tell, but you might have a feeling about it. Sometimes kids just aren't ready to read until they are older, and then something clicks and they just get it. Other times it is something else. I suspected something else with my child by the time she was six.

 

There is a lot of benefit to spending the summer on intensive reading for him. Just a piece of mom advice -- don't allow yourself to be too upset or feel like you failed if you get to the end of the summer and find that he is still behind. Whether he just needs more time or whether he has a reading disability, a few months of extra effort is not a sure way to get him up to grade level. Don't get me wrong. It very well may work, and I hope it does. But be prepared to make a new plan in the fall if it doesn't. I spent a lot of time feeling frustrated and discouraged and unsure about how to help DD (and I haven't figured it all out and am still discouraged, as you would know if you read my posts on the learning challenges board). I am totally not an expert at all. Except that I have a lot of practice feeling like I have failed at this reading challenge. So my message to you is, whatever method you chose, DB or something else, if you work super hard all summer and do not see that he has made an equivalent gain in skills, do not be discouraged.

 

Also, there are some British words. Not a lot. When we come across one, I just tell DD that we don't use that word here, or that we spell it differently. We treat it like a nonsense word -- sound it out, but do not expect it to have a meaning. There aren't a lot of these. Just one every few days or so. The only thing I'd really watch for is the word "been" which they want you to sound out with the long e sound (like bean). Since we actually use that word with an American pronunciation, it's more of an issue. But still a little thing that wouldn't keep me from using the program.

 

Thanks for your reply.  This will not be our only reading program or the first time I have tried to teach him to read.  Many have read our story in other threads, but we have actually spent the past 3 years using All About Reading.  He has made progress, but it is VERY slow.  (We have gone through Pre-Level 1, AAR 1, and are on lesson 22 of level 2.)  We have both grown to dread the AAR fluency sheets.  We are tired of them and could use a change.  

 

From time to time, when I get really frustrated with AAR I have jumped ship and tried ETC, OPGTR, 100 ez lessons, MCP phonics, IEW PAL, and some others.   But I always end up back with AAR because we own it and everyone says it is 'one of the best' programs out there.  

 

So, long story short, he is very capable of blending and 'sounding out' words.   His main problem is that he attempts to guess words instead of using some of the strategies I have taught him to decode them.

 

To answer your other question, yes, I do suspect that he has some type of learning disability.  My son was officially diagnosed with Sensory Processing Disorder.  And I do suspect that he might have some other type of learning disability when it comes to reading....I just can't figure out what.  (That is the frustrating part for me.)  We also had his vision checked and hearing checked.  He took 8 blocks of vision therapy, but we have not noticed a difference with helping him learn to read.  (I sort of feel like I was taken by that doctor.)

 

I know everyone always says this about their kids.....but this little boy is EXTREMELY intelligent. :)  He has a memory like a steal trap and is an extremely deep thinker.   But he has been a struggling reader for awhile now.  If I introduce a phonics concept to him, he remembers it instantly and can always use the skill to decode a word when prompted.  His problem is that (for whatever reason) he has never been able to develop automaticy with his decoding.  To give you an example, he has been reading CVC words since he was 4...but he must sound out the word 'can' everytime he sees it.  Even though he has probably been exposed to that word hundreds (if not thousands) of times.   That frustrates him, so he sometimes attempts to guess at words instead of taking the time to slowly sound each letter out.  (He is trying to speed up his reading.)  The other day, he was not able to recognize and read his last name.  I know that our last name doesn't appear in his readers.   BUT, he writes his full name and sees this word several times per day for years.   So, yes, there is *something* going on....I just don't know what.   I have reached out to the All About Reading support team many times.  They seem to say that I just need to go slower and do more review.  So we took almost 2 years to do level 1 of AAR.   We started his K year and continued on to his first grade year.   Going so slowly, doing extra review, then reviewing again, then reviewing again, then slowing down and reviewing again.   Then we moved on to AAR 2 and started doing the same thing. 

 

People keep telling me, "Maybe he isn't old enough" and "Someday it will just click".  So I have been trying to be patient...but he will be 8 in November.    I guess my instincts are telling me that sitting back and just waiting for the magic "click" moment isn't what he needs.   I feel like he might need a new strategy or some more help.   I don't know if dancing bears or "I see sam" readers are the answer........but if nothing else they will get us out of the AAR Fluency Sheet / Word Flash Card rut......right?  

 

I am open to any and all suggestions on things to try or do.   My DH and I decided that we are going to attempt some new methods with him and try to find the asnwer ourselves.   If we are unable to find the answer ourselves, we will probably take him to some type of 'expert' this year.  I am just reluctant to do that YET, because I dont' want him to label himself as a bad reader.   I'm trying to preserve his confidence in the area.

 

The good news is, he likes to read and says it is his favorite subject.  And he loves books in general.  He can listen to me read all day long.  So I would like to maintain that positive outlook on learning to read whatever I do. 

[rachelpants]

Thanks for your reply.  This will not be our only reading program or the first time I have tried to teach him to read.  Many have read our story in other threads, but we have actually spent the past 3 years using All About Reading.  He has made progress, but it is VERY slow.  (We have gone through Pre-Level 1, AAR 1, and are on lesson 22 of level 2.)  We have both grown to dread the AAR fluency sheets.  We are tired of them and could use a change.  

 

From time to time, when I get really frustrated with AAR I have jumped ship and tried ETC, OPGTR, 100 ez lessons, MCP phonics, IEW PAL, and some others.   But I always end up back with AAR because we own it and everyone says it is 'one of the best' programs out there.  

 

So, long story short, he is very capable of blending and 'sounding out' words.   His main problem is that he attempts to guess words instead of using some of the strategies I have taught him to decode them.

 

To answer your other question, yes, I do suspect that he has some type of learning disability.  My son was officially diagnosed with Sensory Processing Disorder.  And I do suspect that he might have some other type of learning disability when it comes to reading....I just can't figure out what.  (That is the frustrating part for me.)  We also had his vision checked and hearing checked.  He took 8 blocks of vision therapy, but we have not noticed a difference with helping him learn to read.  (I sort of feel like I was taken by that doctor.)

 

I know everyone always says this about their kids.....but this little boy is EXTREMELY intelligent. :)  He has a memory like a steal trap and is an extremely deep thinker.   But he has been a struggling reader for awhile now.  If I introduce a phonics concept to him, he remembers it instantly and can always use the skill to decode a word when prompted.  His problem is that (for whatever reason) he has never been able to develop automaticy with his decoding.  To give you an example, he has been reading CVC words since he was 4...but he must sound out the word 'can' everytime he sees it.  Even though he has probably been exposed to that word hundreds (if not thousands) of times.   That frustrates him, so he sometimes attempts to guess at words instead of taking the time to slowly sound each letter out.  (He is trying to speed up his reading.)  The other day, he was not able to recognize and read his last name.  I know that our last name doesn't appear in his readers.   BUT, he writes his full name and sees this word several times per day for years.   So, yes, there is *something* going on....I just don't know what.   I have reached out to the All About Reading support team many times.  They seem to say that I just need to go slower and do more review.  So we took almost 2 years to do level 1 of AAR.   We started his K year and continued on to his first grade year.   Going so slowly, doing extra review, then reviewing again, then reviewing again, then slowing down and reviewing again.   Then we moved on to AAR 2 and started doing the same thing. 

 

People keep telling me, "Maybe he isn't old enough" and "Someday it will just click".  So I have been trying to be patient...but he will be 8 in November.    I guess my instincts are telling me that sitting back and just waiting for the magic "click" moment isn't what he needs.   I feel like he might need a new strategy or some more help.   I don't know if dancing bears or "I see sam" readers are the answer........but if nothing else they will get us out of the AAR Fluency Sheet / Word Flash Card rut......right?  

 

I am open to any and all suggestions on things to try or do.   My DH and I decided that we are going to attempt some new methods with him and try to find the asnwer ourselves.   If we are unable to find the answer ourselves, we will probably take him to some type of 'expert' this year.  I am just reluctant to do that YET, because I dont' want him to label himself as a bad reader.   I'm trying to preserve his confidence in the area.

 

The good news is, he likes to read and says it is his favorite subject.  And he loves books in general.  He can listen to me read all day long.  So I would like to maintain that positive outlook on learning to read whatever I do. 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

When he sounds out "can" for example does he do it short and choppy first, (like the first step in the AAR blending procedure says to do?

For example:

1st: /c/ /a/ /n/

2nd: caaaaaaannnnnnn

3rd: can

 

My DS could not progress at all until we dropped the first step of the blending procedure...

Here is a quote from the website    http://www.righttrackreading.com/blending.html    that really helped us:

 

 

What is Blending?

 

Blending is the ability to smoothly and fluidly combine individual sound together into words. For example, smooth blending is sounding out the word ‘mast’ as /mmaasst/ instead of a choppy or segmented /m/…./a/…./s/…./t/. In simple terms, blending is smoothly ‘hooking the sounds together’ when sounding out words.

 

Why is Smooth Blending of Sounds Important?

 

To read proficiently, the student needs to learn to blend individual sounds smoothly together into words without choppy pauses between the sounds. The ability to seamlessly combine individual sounds together into the fluid word is not only vital for developing correct phonologic processing, it is also critical for developing eventual fluency. Smooth blending is one of the subskills vital to developing correct phonologic processing, the foundation for proficient reading.

 

Why do you need to teach students to blend sounds together?

 

While many students pick up smooth blending easily and automatically, others do not acquire this vital skill on their own and need specific work to master blending.   Difficulties blending are usually evident as ‘choppy sounding out’.  When a child separates the individual sounds this inability to blend smoothly can create a hurdle that blocks reading development.  If the student is chopping sounds apart they often are not able to put all the sounds together and ‘smoothly’ say the word. The student either forgets the individual sounds by the time they get to the end of the word or is unable to combine the segmented sounds into a word. Students who struggle with smooth blending often know the sounds in isolation but are unable to ‘hook’ the sounds together.  An example, is the student may sound out ‘strap’ as /ss/.../t/…./r/…/a/…/p/ and then say ‘step’. They know the individual sounds but because they do not ‘hook them together’ they forget all the sounds and are unable to read the fluid word.  Students who lack blending skills may initially get by with short words but quickly run into trouble with longer words containing four or more sounds. When a child does not know how to blend sounds together they make numerous errors and face difficulty with beginning reading. Correct phonologic processing requires smooth blending.

 

Blending is a skill easily overlooked. As proficient readers we already ‘know’ the entire word and can easily break sounds apart and effortlessly put the word together again. Since it is effortless for us we often fail to recognize the difficulty beginners face in combining individual sounds to form words. Beginner readers do not ‘know’ the end result (the word). Therefore, choppy segmenting of sounds can prevent them from being able to combine sounds together and form the word. 

 

To avoid potential difficulty it is important to directly teach smooth blending skills from the beginning. The student needs to automatically engrain the skill of smooth blending. Also remember, it is always easier to develop correct techniques in the initial stages then try to ‘undo’ engrained bad habits of ‘choppy’ ‘segmented’ sounding out. Take the time to develop smooth blending from the very beginning. 

 

Like I said....DS was stuck forever in his reading before we switched the way he blended.  We actually took an AAR break and used Phonics Pathways for a while to work on blending only.

 

It doesn't add up to me that your DS can memorize the phonograms so well but be so stuck in his reading *headscratch*???

 

You'll figure it out!!! :grouphug:

[TheAttachedMama]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

When he sounds out "can" for example does he do it short and choppy first, (like the first step in the AAR blending procedure says to do?

For example:

1st: /c/ /a/ /n/

2nd: caaaaaaannnnnnn

3rd: can

 

Thanks for the support.  It means a lot.   Yes!  He does blend in a choppy manner.  He actually sort of skips step 2 and does this:

1st: /c/ /aaaaaaaaaaaaa/ /n/

2nd: can

 

He draws out the vowel or vowel team, but the rest of the letters are disconnected.

[rachelpants]

Thanks for the support.  It means a lot.   Yes!  He does blend in a choppy manner.  He actually sort of skips step 2 and does this:

1st: /c/ /aaaaaaaaaaaaa/ /n/

2nd: can

 

He draws out the vowel or vowel team, but the rest of the letters are disconnected.

 

Oh boy...I don't have any advice for that...lol.  Except that maybe if you can get him to blend the first two sounds together smoothly it might help?

 

Phonics pathways is really great at getting them to blend the first two sounds together and then add the ending sound, which helped my DS quite a bit.  However, we used it before he learned the long vowel sounds so it was "appropriate" at the time.  For example, when he was learning "b & e" blend together to make the "beh" sound, he wasn't confusing it with the word, "be", because he hadn't learned the long vowel sound yet.  (this might not make sense unless you have previewed Phonics Pathways).  That said, our few days work with blending the first 2 sounds together really did help us to progress and helped him gain speed in reading.

 

HTH :)

[NASDAQ]

I think you are right to be a bit concerned. He's been doing phonics for quite awhile and I do like to see kids getting traction at that age, kwim?

 

AAR/AAS are for typical kids. Your son sounds not quite typical in his ability to retain phonics. That's cool. My first two would have been able to handle AAR.

 

Dancing Bears are supposedly consumable but there is very little writing and it would be easy to re-use the book. You can't do them both at the same time so it makes no difference whether they're at the same level or not.

 

If he can't read that sentence easily, Fast Track is definitely out. You are looking at either A, or Bear Necessities. It looks easier than it is because it expects a very high level of accuracy.

 

The time it takes to go through a level is going to vary wildly by child. My 8-yo can take a level of Apples and Pears in six weeks, whereas my son will be doing DB A until the earth freezes over and/or the polar ice caps melt and drown us all.

 

 

[NASDAQ]

Oh boy...I don't have any advice for that...lol.  Except that maybe if you can get him to blend the first two sounds together smoothly it might help?

 

Phonics pathways is really great at getting them to blend the first two sounds together and then add the ending sound, which helped my DS quite a bit.  However, we used it before he learned the long vowel sounds so it was "appropriate" at the time.  For example, when he was learning "b & e" blend together to make the "beh" sound, he wasn't confusing it with the word, "be", because he hadn't learned the long vowel sound yet.  (this might not make sense unless you have previewed Phonics Pathways).  That said, our few days work with blending the first 2 sounds together really did help us to progress and helped him gain speed in reading.

 

HTH :)

 

Try demonstrating it to him and saying, "don't fall down between the letters -- hold each letter until you get to the next one!"

[rachelpants]

How does he do for words like be, me, we? I'm just wondering because if they are easy for him...maybe it is a blending problem after all. (Although I'm completely troubleshooting and am completely unqualified to answer, lol)

 

Honestly....before PP DS would sound out /c/ /a/ /n/ (he always skipped the 2nd part of the AAR blending procedure)...and would then say "can" ...but he had to sound it out every. time. It wasn't until he learned to blend the first to sound together ("ca" like PP teaches) that ANY of the words became automatic.

[rachelpants]

P.s. It only took about 24 pages of PP before DS had mastered blending....it went quickly.

[MerryAtHope]

 

To answer your other question, yes, I do suspect that he has some type of learning disability.  My son was officially diagnosed with Sensory Processing Disorder.  And I do suspect that he might have some other type of learning disability when it comes to reading....I just can't figure out what.  (That is the frustrating part for me.)  We also had his vision checked and hearing checked.  He took 8 blocks of vision therapy, but we have not noticed a difference with helping him learn to read.  (I sort of feel like I was taken by that doctor.)

 

I know everyone always says this about their kids.....but this little boy is EXTREMELY intelligent. :)  He has a memory like a steal trap and is an extremely deep thinker.   

 

Have you ever looked into working memory issues? My oldest also has an amazing memory and is a deep thinker, but he sounded out CVC words every time, even twice in the same sentence, until a little after age 8 (so...I feel your pain!). Working memory plays a big role in things like learning to read, and maybe that's part of the puzzle for your son. Does your library have The Mislabeled Child? I like that book a lot because you can see examples of kids who have various things and how they present, and it can give you some clues about what to pursue. It helped me a lot in understanding my kids, might be worth looking into. 

 

I hope you find some things that help; I know this is a frustrating place to be. 

[rachelpants]

Lol...me again :o....I was thinking about a post I read forever ago that I thought might be helpful for you.

 

I'm on my phone....putting baby to bed, but I found it! :-)

 

Post 2 of this thread:

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/456466-ack-i-think-ive-been-teaching-phonogram-blending-wrong-and-a-spalding-question/

 

Maybe it will help....I'd love it if your DS's reading struggles could be solved easily with something simple like a week of blending boot camp lol.

[Storygirl]

Thanks for your response to my questions. I agree with NASDAQ that you are seeing some red flags. Whether it turns out that he has a reading disability or not, he is having an unusually difficult time learning to read, although he is bright. His reading difficulties seem out of line with his other academic abilities, correct? That sounds so much like my daughter. Those are the things I say about her.

 

I have no authority to give advice, because we are just starting to figure things out ourselves, but I'll offer some anyway :) . I would trust your instinct that something might be going on that is preventing progress. Do you read the learning challenges forum? There are several dyslexia topics running currently that might be of interest to you, because they are chock full of helpful info. (I'm not saying that your son has dyslexia -- those conversations are talking a lot about what is dyslexia and what is not and what kind of therapies might be helpful for different reading issues.)  You might read some things there that ring a bell with you.

 

I have spent years trying to make things work for DD, and she has made huge progress, but we are realizing we need outside help now. Actually, my gut told me we needed some kind of help before, but I didn't know how to get started and ended up asking the wrong people, who either were not able to help or who insisted that DD was doing fine, even though I knew she was not. If you find yourself in this place, trust your instincts and keep seeking answers instead of hoping things will improve with time. DD has actually made huge improvements in her reading this year, yet her underlying problems are still there.

 

DD is a word guesser, too. DB is made to help break this habit. I have two points to make about that:

 

1) DB might be just what you need to break the guessing habit and help your son tackle the words using phonics. I'd suggest starting with book A instead of Fast Track (just because book A has been good but challenging for DD, who is both older and a more fluent reader than your son; Fast Track might be fine, but we haven't used it, so I have no personal opinion about it).

 

2) If the guessing is not actually a "habit" for your son and there is another underlying issue, you might work through DB or another program diligently and yet see no progress. You might even see advancement or improvement without actually remediating the root problem.

 

Just because some of your comments resonate with me, I'll mention that DD also had a huge amount of difficulty sounding out words. She also would be very choppy and have trouble sounding out the words smoothly, just like your example above.  She could work very hard to sound out a word in the middle of a sentence, then go back to the beginning of the sentence, and when she would get to that word again only 30 seconds later, she would still not be able to read or recognize it. How does your son do with rhyming words? DD cannot rhyme. Or she really has to think to do it. She can read a Magic Tree House chapter book to herself, but she has trouble sounding out simple four letter words when they are isolated on a page (DB style). I was surprised and saddened by the number of mistakes DD made on the very first page of DB.  She finds it much harder than reading a chapter book.

 

I'd say go ahead and give DB a try -- it might be just what he needs. If you discover that it is hard for him, don't be discouraged. Take it as a sign that you have discovered what he needs to work on.

 

In the meantime, have you ever googled "stealth dyslexia"? I heard that term here on these forums and found a lot that described my daughter when I googled it. Again, I'm not in any way suggesting that your son has dyslexia, just that it can be helpful and empowering to gather information while you try to figure things out.

[Storygirl]

 

 

My concern is that if I start level A now (and each level takes a full year) that puts him still learning to read in 5th grade.  I know you can't rush things like learning to read.  BUT it really scares me that he is going to fall terribly behind because I keep fiddling around with finding a reading program.

 

 

 

 

People keep telling me, "Maybe he isn't old enough" and "Someday it will just click".  So I have been trying to be patient...but he will be 8 in November.    I guess my instincts are telling me that sitting back and just waiting for the magic "click" moment isn't what he needs.   I feel like he might need a new strategy or some more help.  

 

I am open to any and all suggestions on things to try or do.   My DH and I decided that we are going to attempt some new methods with him and try to find the asnwer ourselves.   If we are unable to find the answer ourselves, we will probably take him to some type of 'expert' this year.  I am just reluctant to do that YET, because I dont' want him to label himself as a bad reader.   I'm trying to preserve his confidence in the area.

 

 

A few things stick out to me in your posts that I thought were worthy of mentioning. It's so hard when we have a struggling reader to let go of our own timelines and expectations and just meet them where their need is. Believe me, I know. I am an advanced planner, and I have seen my plans crumble over and over again. I mean having to let go of a whole year of my carefully executed lesson plans (I used to plan my whole year during the summer before), because my DD just couldn't fit into my vision for her progress. More than once. You would think I would have learned my lesson the first year, but no.

 

Please try not to project years in advance and worry about how he will ever get there. What if he doesn't get to a fifth grade reading level until he is in eighth grade? Well, it would be okay, if that was what was right for him. Hard, yes. But still okay.

 

I have had to let go of many of my expectations, and that really is one of the hard parts. I have felt like a failure. I have felt discouraged. I have been angry at myself. I have been angry at my daughter for not being able to "get it." I have had to let go of some of my visions of what kind of teacher I want to be and what kind of students my children are. I have been confused and overwhelmed. If you can give yourself permission now to let go of some of your long-term ideas and just focus on what he needs right now, for today, maybe you can avoid some of the emotional turmoil I have put myself through.

 

If you are really open to any and all suggestions, consider this piece of advice I wish someone had given me: If you think there is a learning issue, don't wait another year hoping that time and a different curriculum are magic bullets. Seek evaluations soon. Struggling for another year will not help your son avoid thinking he is a poor reader. It just means an extra year of struggling.

 

Being blunt is not usually my style. Really I'm saying all this with a ton of empathy. I truly hope that your son is just one of those kids who needed an extra bit of time for everything to fall into place. You say you suspect there may be something else to it, though, and that is what I'm responding to. So many times I came across people who downplayed or didn't understand my concerns. I really needed to hear the voice of someone saying, "If you are concerned, take action. Sooner is better. Don't wait." I thought maybe I should be that voice for you, in case that is what you need.

 

Feel free just to ignore me if you don't think my exhortations are helpful. You know your son and I do not.   :grouphug:

[NASDAQ]

Each level shouldn't take a year. If you are not doing phonics practice every day, now is the time to start. DB takes 10-15 minutes, so you can manage to do it over the weekends. There are three levels. Each level has about 120 work pages. If you did one page a day (which would be a kid going struggling) you should be able to do that in just over a year. That assumes that he never gets any traction and never speeds up.

 

ETA: When I said my second child is going to be doing DB A until the polar ice caps melt, he's actually doing a page a day. And he's barely six (he's been six for two weeks) and has much less phonics than your son has had. I probably should have started him on Bear Necessities, but I underestimated the difficulty and I didn't want him doing the same book at the four-year-old.

[Storygirl]

I agree that each level will not take a full year. It takes us about 10-15 minutes to complete one page, sometimes two. Ten-minute sessions are the length that they recommend. You could do ten minutes in the morning and another ten in the afternoon and move through it faster if desired.

[alisoncooks]

I'm worried all this need for reassurance re: DB taking a year is my fault.  Obviously, each kid moves at their own pace.

 

That said, it DID take my oldest DD a (school) year.  We started near the end of July (2013) and finished at the end of May (2014).

We did DB every day (m-f) BUT there were days where she struggled, so we did only half a page (especially when we first started the program and DD was overwhelmed by those page-long Decoding Power Pages).  Sometimes we repeated the same page 2, even 3, days in a row, until she was reading it well (meaning: without frustration).

 

So, for my DD, Book A took that amount of time.  When we started, she was reading CVC words -- very laboriously.  We'd already been through AAR1 (among many other things).  She was just-turned-7 when we began DB A.

 

So, our experience seems to be atypical.  FWIW, reading is the only area of struggle for DD (who otherwise appears intelligent ;)).  She may have undiagnosed reading disabilities or dyslexia (which is why I switched to DB).

[Terabith]

How does he do with CVC words?  Is he solid on the words that he's learned in AAR? 

 

How is his phonemic awareness? 

 

If his phonemic awareness is good, and he is good with what he's learned with AAR and it's just going slowly, I'd give Fast Track a try.  There are a lot of British words and spellings, but frankly, that helped make sure we were sounding out....sort of like nonsense words, but with a British vocabulary boost.  The stories are weird.  My oldest one hated them, but my youngest one found them hilarious.  The cursor is important, though my kids hated it.  You could also take the Webster's speller and copy/ paste it and make the font bigger and give it more white space, and use that with a cursor to see if that approach works well.  It might be something to experiment with before you purchase Fast Track. 

 

If Fast Track goes well, I'd add in Apples and Pears when you're about a third of the way through.  The spelling really helps solidify the reading. 

 

If he's had a huge amount of difficulty with AAR, I'd go to Barton.  It's possibly slower, but it's designed for dyslexics, and it's solid. 

[TheAttachedMama]

Have you ever looked into working memory issues? My oldest also has an amazing memory and is a deep thinker, but he sounded out CVC words every time, even twice in the same sentence, until a little after age 8 (so...I feel your pain!). Working memory plays a big role in things like learning to read, and maybe that's part of the puzzle for your son. Does your library have The Mislabeled Child? I like that book a lot because you can see examples of kids who have various things and how they present, and it can give you some clues about what to pursue. It helped me a lot in understanding my kids, might be worth looking into. 

 

I hope you find some things that help; I know this is a frustrating place to be. 

Thanks Merry!  I am going to see if I can find a copy of that book locally. 

 

Thanks for your response to my questions. I agree with NASDAQ that you are seeing some red flags. Whether it turns out that he has a reading disability or not, he is having an unusually difficult time learning to read, although he is bright. His reading difficulties seem out of line with his other academic abilities, correct? That sounds so much like my daughter. Those are the things I say about her.

 

I have no authority to give advice, because we are just starting to figure things out ourselves, but I'll offer some anyway :) . I would trust your instinct that something might be going on that is preventing progress. Do you read the learning challenges forum? There are several dyslexia topics running currently that might be of interest to you, because they are chock full of helpful info. (I'm not saying that your son has dyslexia -- those conversations are talking a lot about what is dyslexia and what is not and what kind of therapies might be helpful for different reading issues.)  You might read some things there that ring a bell with you.

 

I have spent years trying to make things work for DD, and she has made huge progress, but we are realizing we need outside help now. Actually, my gut told me we needed some kind of help before, but I didn't know how to get started and ended up asking the wrong people, who either were not able to help or who insisted that DD was doing fine, even though I knew she was not. If you find yourself in this place, trust your instincts and keep seeking answers instead of hoping things will improve with time. DD has actually made huge improvements in her reading this year, yet her underlying problems are still there.

 

DD is a word guesser, too. DB is made to help break this habit. I have two points to make about that:

 

1) DB might be just what you need to break the guessing habit and help your son tackle the words using phonics. I'd suggest starting with book A instead of Fast Track (just because book A has been good but challenging for DD, who is both older and a more fluent reader than your son; Fast Track might be fine, but we haven't used it, so I have no personal opinion about it).

 

2) If the guessing is not actually a "habit" for your son and there is another underlying issue, you might work through DB or another program diligently and yet see no progress. You might even see advancement or improvement without actually remediating the root problem.

 

Just because some of your comments resonate with me, I'll mention that DD also had a huge amount of difficulty sounding out words. She also would be very choppy and have trouble sounding out the words smoothly, just like your example above.  She could work very hard to sound out a word in the middle of a sentence, then go back to the beginning of the sentence, and when she would get to that word again only 30 seconds later, she would still not be able to read or recognize it. How does your son do with rhyming words? DD cannot rhyme. Or she really has to think to do it. She can read a Magic Tree House chapter book to herself, but she has trouble sounding out simple four letter words when they are isolated on a page (DB style). I was surprised and saddened by the number of mistakes DD made on the very first page of DB.  She finds it much harder than reading a chapter book.

 

I'd say go ahead and give DB a try -- it might be just what he needs. If you discover that it is hard for him, don't be discouraged. Take it as a sign that you have discovered what he needs to work on.

 

In the meantime, have you ever googled "stealth dyslexia"? I heard that term here on these forums and found a lot that described my daughter when I googled it. Again, I'm not in any way suggesting that your son has dyslexia, just that it can be helpful and empowering to gather information while you try to figure things out.

 

Thanks for your reply.  Yes, his reading abilities seem way out of line with his other academic subjects.  Even spelling which is surprising to me.  He is using AAS level 2 and picks it up easily.   I would assume that someone who struggles with reading would also struggle with spelling, but that isn't the case with him.  I am often left scratching my head wondering, "How can you spell that word but not be able to read it?"   A lot of time when he reads the wrong word, I have him spell the correct word and we point out the differences between the sounds he read vs. what is on the page.  

 

He also does great with math.   And even though he is barely reading, he does great with understanding of grammar and other language skills.  (We had been doing copywork and narration using FLL and WWE with our All About Reading readers....but I stopped and decided to focus on JUST learning to read for awhile.)   

 

He also does great in content subjects.  He can narrate like nobody's business in articulate, wonderfully constructed sentences...and has a vocabulary that is very good.   He also does not have any speech issues.  (I know some kids with reading issues have underlying speech and hearing issues.)  He actually started talking very early and hasn't stopped.    His receptive language skills also seem really good to me.  So (with the exception of reading) school and learning seem to come easy for him. 

 

We did take him to a COVD doctor and she said that he was having tracking issues.  SO, I thought that perhaps our problem was solved.  (He was just ahving problems SEEING what he was reading.)  We paid a ridiculous amount in vision therapy and did countless hours of homework with him at home.  I saw no change.  Perhaps it would work better when he was older or something.  BUT, I kind of wonder if I was taken by that doctor/clinic.  Do they diagnose every kid who comes in with vision problems??

A few things stick out to me in your posts that I thought were worthy of mentioning. It's so hard when we have a struggling reader to let go of our own timelines and expectations and just meet them where their need is. Believe me, I know. I am an advanced planner, and I have seen my plans crumble over and over again. I mean having to let go of a whole year of my carefully executed lesson plans (I used to plan my whole year during the summer before), because my DD just couldn't fit into my vision for her progress. More than once. You would think I would have learned my lesson the first year, but no.

 

Please try not to project years in advance and worry about how he will ever get there. What if he doesn't get to a fifth grade reading level until he is in eighth grade? Well, it would be okay, if that was what was right for him. Hard, yes. But still okay.

 

I have had to let go of many of my expectations, and that really is one of the hard parts. I have felt like a failure. I have felt discouraged. I have been angry at myself. I have been angry at my daughter for not being able to "get it." I have had to let go of some of my visions of what kind of teacher I want to be and what kind of students my children are. I have been confused and overwhelmed. If you can give yourself permission now to let go of some of your long-term ideas and just focus on what he needs right now, for today, maybe you can avoid some of the emotional turmoil I have put myself through.

 

If you are really open to any and all suggestions, consider this piece of advice I wish someone had given me: If you think there is a learning issue, don't wait another year hoping that time and a different curriculum are magic bullets. Seek evaluations soon. Struggling for another year will not help your son avoid thinking he is a poor reader. It just means an extra year of struggling.

 

Being blunt is not usually my style. Really I'm saying all this with a ton of empathy. I truly hope that your son is just one of those kids who needed an extra bit of time for everything to fall into place. You say you suspect there may be something else to it, though, and that is what I'm responding to. So many times I came across people who downplayed or didn't understand my concerns. I really needed to hear the voice of someone saying, "If you are concerned, take action. Sooner is better. Don't wait." I thought maybe I should be that voice for you, in case that is what you need.

 

Feel free just to ignore me if you don't think my exhortations are helpful. You know your son and I do not.   :grouphug:

Thanks for your gentle reminder.   Just being honest, ONE THING that causes me to stress his 'falling behind' grade level is the fact that I may not be able to homeschool forever.   (I'm just sort of thinking 'out loud' now about the pressure I put on myself.)   I hope and pray that I will be able to homeschool for a long time, but our family situation may not allow that.   And I always have that in the back of my mind when teaching my kids.    It is a long story, but if I have to go back to work, I will probably be forced to send him to public school.  In other words, I may not have the luxury of just keeping him home and allowing him to learn to read until the 5th grade.  If I had to send him to school next year, it would be REALLY bad based on what they expect of kids locally.    I guess I feel like I need to seize hold of my current opportunity to work one on one with him while I have it.   So long story short, it isn't my long term curriculum plans that make me feel like I am set to some time table.  It is the fact that I want to make the best use of my time at home wit him while I have it. 

 

I get that you can't *make* a child learn to read any more than I can *make* my baby grow teeth or learn to walk.  However, if there IS something I can do to help him at home, I want to make sure I am doing it.   

 

Like I said, I am not sure if my son has some type of learning disability or not.  It may just be that the phonics curriculum we were using before started some bad habits in him.   For example, in AAR you practice word cards until they are mastered.  And i think the concept of 'mastering' word cards may have started to inadvertently encourage him to start to read the words by 'sight' instead of looking at the individual phonograms in the words.  (If you have to slowly sound out the word, it isn't mastered according to AAR.  So, I think he started memorizing the shape of the words instead of looking at the individual phonograms in a word.)   SO--I am hoping the notched card thing in dancing bears might help with that.   (That is why I am specifically asking about that program.) 

 

BUT, if we don't make some traction soon, I will take your advice and bring him to some type of specialist.  Like you said, I dont' want him to label himself as a bad reader or struggle through another year. 

 

 

How does he do with CVC words?  Is he solid on the words that he's learned in AAR? 

 

How is his phonemic awareness? 

 

If his phonemic awareness is good, and he is good with what he's learned with AAR and it's just going slowly, I'd give Fast Track a try.  There are a lot of British words and spellings, but frankly, that helped make sure we were sounding out....sort of like nonsense words, but with a British vocabulary boost.  The stories are weird.  My oldest one hated them, but my youngest one found them hilarious.  The cursor is important, though my kids hated it.  You could also take the Webster's speller and copy/ paste it and make the font bigger and give it more white space, and use that with a cursor to see if that approach works well.  It might be something to experiment with before you purchase Fast Track. 

 

If Fast Track goes well, I'd add in Apples and Pears when you're about a third of the way through.  The spelling really helps solidify the reading. 

 

If he's had a huge amount of difficulty with AAR, I'd go to Barton.  It's possibly slower, but it's designed for dyslexics, and it's solid. 

I think that his phonetic awareness is VERY good.  I think that AAR has been very good in that regard.   It is the fact that his blending seems to take him a very long time and that he *has* to blend every word (unless he guesses) that slows him down....not that he doesn't understand the 'sounds' in the words.

 

To answer your question about CVC words, he can decode CVC words correctly every time.  (he has the ability if I back him up and have him try again.)  BUT, he never seems to learn that 'can' is can without having to say /c/ /a/ /n/.  So he has to sound those words out eveyrtime, unless he sometimes tries to speed up the process by guessing.  Another strange thing I have noticed is that longer words like "student" are easier for him than "cat".  Perhaps because they have a more definite shape and he is reading by sight?  I don't know.  Just a theory.  

 

I am going to give Rachel's idea a try and have a blending boot camp and see if his choppy blending is causing problems.  I can probably do that with letter tiles and some fluency pages...that way I don't have to buy phonics pathways. 

 

He also doesn't seem to recognize groupings of letters make a similar sound.  ("there" sounds like "where" for example).  Even when I point out and we play some 'change the word' games with letter tiles he doesn't pick up on this naturally.     So I am thinking a more synthetic phonics program might help with that skill??  I don't know. 

 

I have been looking at samples of both DB A and DB fast track....and I really think that he would do fine in fast track too.   I am thinking that DB A seems to go a bit slower than he needs.  (Of course, it is so hard to tell unless you try it...you know?)    He is already reading a daily fluency page from AAR.  (And have you seen how LONG those fluency pages are!?)  Plus, doing word card flash cards daily, etc.   So a 10 minute fast track session is going to seem like a relief to him.   Plus, like I said, he seems to be able to learn new phonograms quickly and apply that knowledge.    So I am *thinking* fast track might be OK for him.   Especially since a lot of the concepts will be further review of the stuff he has already learned in AAR 2. 

 

I've also been looking at Apples and Pears too.  I like the look of levels B and on....but the tracing in level A kind of drives me batty because of the weird font. So I am thinking we are going to stick with AAS 2 until he can test out of tracing parts of Apple and Pears A.  Then I might re-evaluate our spelling based on how he is dong.

[NASDAQ]

Early reading is a very limited set of skills. Mature reading is a much wider set. So it's not uncommon for a bright kid to be a terrible early reader. Once he gets over that phonics hump and reads fluently, I'd bet you'll see his reading come more into line with his general intelligence.

 

[Storygirl]

If it is truly a word guessing issue without an underlying disability, then I would think that DB might help him.

 

As far as vision therapy goes -- we haven't tried it. We did have DD's eyes checked by a COVD certified eye doctor, who said her vision was not causing her issues, but I'm probably going to get a second opinion. It is hard to know who to go to, however. I have heard that there are some vision therapists who will prescribe therapy for everyone who enters the door, whether they need it or not (our pediatrician actually warned us of this). I don't know how common that is, but evidently it does happen in some places. That doesn't mean it happened for you, but if you have an uncomfortable feeling about your son's experience, you might consider getting a second opinion. Perhaps the therapy he received did not adequately target his specific issues, and you would get better help elsewhere.

 

One other question. You say your son is good at math. Can he memorize math facts? DD is good at math conceptually, but she can't get her facts down. She counts on her fingers or uses other ways of accommodating. It was a surprise to me to learn that some kinds of reading disabilities go hand in hand with difficulty with math calculations, even if the child is an advanced math student.

 

 

[Terabith]

I think Dancing Bears is a great program, and it's relatively cheap and certainly worth a shot.  I'm not sure, however, that it will address this need.  It will solidify the "sound it out - every time," but if he HAS the sound it out part down, I wonder if this is what he needs?  I'm wondering about short term memory or visual memory.  How does he do with games like Set or Memory? 

[TheAttachedMama]

If it is truly a word guessing issue without an underlying disability, then I would think that DB might help him.

 

As far as vision therapy goes -- we haven't tried it. We did have DD's eyes checked by a COVD certified eye doctor, who said her vision was not causing her issues, but I'm probably going to get a second opinion. It is hard to know who to go to, however. I have heard that there are some vision therapists who will prescribe therapy for everyone who enters the door, whether they need it or not (our pediatrician actually warned us of this). I don't know how common that is, but evidently it does happen in some places. That doesn't mean it happened for you, but if you have an uncomfortable feeling about your son's experience, you might consider getting a second opinion. Perhaps the therapy he received did not adequately target his specific issues, and you would get better help elsewhere.

 

One other question. You say your son is good at math. Can he memorize math facts? DD is good at math conceptually, but she can't get her facts down. She counts on her fingers or uses other ways of accommodating. It was a surprise to me to learn that some kinds of reading disabilities go hand in hand with difficulty with math calculations, even if the child is an advanced math student.

 

As far as the math facts go.....

He does OK (not great) with math facts.  But it has (and is taking) a ton of drill. 

 

[jenn&charles]

 

 

This morning I have been trying to research some remedial reading programs.  (Is that what I need to be looking at by this age??)   

 

I have heard a number of people mention dancing bears.   I looked at the samples online, and it does look promising.  Of course, I am reluctant to curriculum hop again.  (That would just mean less progress made in AAR.)  On the other hand, perhaps DB introducing things at a faster rate which would get him reading quicker.   (He does seem to catch on to phonetic concepts quickly.) 

 

If I used Dancing Bears, what would you suggest I order?  Fast Track?  Book A? 

The Fast Track book says it is for students within my son's age range.  BUT it also says that if you child can not read the sentence:  "Our teacher is waiting for us in the hall" you should order book A.  (My son cannot read that sentence because those phongrams have not been introduced in AAR yet.)   However, the samples online look like they cover all of the phonograms in that sentence.  So I am a bit confused. 

 

Also, are the Dancing bears books consumable?  Could I use the same book with my daughter?  Or would they each need one? 

 

Finally, is the only thing you need the Dancing bears book?  Do they have everything you need in those books (readers, flashcards, etc.)?

 

I used Dancing Bears with a student I tutored who wasn't reading at grade level and had some bad reading habits (word guessing, etc.). I started in Book A.  I think Book A is a good starting place for you and wouldn't base which book you chose based on your son's age range, but rather the fact that he can't read the sentence "Our teacher is waiting for us in the hall." You can look at the full length samples online and see which book is better suited for your needs though.

 

The books can be reused. Just use a different colored pen for the check marks for each of your children as you go through it and don't have them circle the answers in the cloze activities.

 

I found that my student needed additional practice, so I added in Explode the Code (both online and the workbooks). The combo of the two programs worked really well.

 

In the replies another poster recommended Barton. I used that with my son who had some dyslexic tendencies. After using it with Apples & Pears, he overcame his reading difficulties and as a teen no longer has any reading problems whatsoever. The only problem with Barton is that it's SO expensive and very teacher intensive. My son didn't enjoy it and thought it tedious, but it made a world of a difference.

 

If it were me having to choose, I'd choose Barton if I thought I was working with a kid with potential disabilities and Dancing Bears for a student who just needs to be taught with no issues or who has bad habits (like guessing / sight reading problems).