Charlotte Mason Geography and the Holling Books/ CM and BF

[Hunter]

The Holling books had become standard for CM geography nowadays, but do you think CM would have used them and why or why not?

 

If you were going to choose to pull the Holling books from the main AO schedule, and just borrow them from the library to be used as a quick free read, what if anything would you add to the basic Geography lessons?

http://www.amblesideonline.org/geographysch.shtml

 

AO includes mapping from the Holling books? The only maps I can find to purchase are the BIG and expensive Beautiful Feet ones.

 

First the Holling books are an awkward addition to an otherwise almost all eBook curriculum, but I decided not to tweak the schedule and push through. The maps are a huge pain in my patooty, though, worse than trying to use the books.

 

Beautiful feet stuff is nice, but lots of nice things just don't fit into my minimalistic lifestyle. CM was around for a LONG time before Beautiful Feet maps and the Holling books. The D' Aulaires' books are only a week or two on the schedule and can be gotten from the library and don't require other BF purchases. But still–how CM are D'Aulaires and giant picture books?

 

I don't want to tweak to tweak. I don't. But #1, I'm just trying to figure out how BF stuff has become so entrenched in modern CM curricula, out of curiosity, and #2 whether it's in my best interest to include them. Those cardboard maps and big books don't fit nicely in backpacks, in contrast to the rest of the curriculum is just so nice and portable and practical.

 

What did CM do for mapwork? She didn't map Paddle's journey to the sea. :) I was thinking of adding mapwork to the Bible stories as I already have maps for that.

[Hunter]

I'm not trying to push an idea or looking for people to agree. I'm just feeling stuck, here. I'm feeling disconnect between the BF books and the rest of CM/AO. I don't know how I want to move forward. I figured some general conversation might shed some light somewhere about something.

[Emma S]

I haven't used BF. We did use paddle to the sea last year -  we followed his journey in an atlas, and I just printed maps from the internet for us to colour/mark.  I'm not sure how CM that is! My son was more interested in just hearing the story, to him the map work got in the way. I'm not a huge fan of Holling, so that's the only book we've tried...

 

I bought the Sassafras books to use as a science read a loud, but to be honest they've actually became far more useful as a geography resource than anything else I've used. Again, we follow the journey using atlas/globes/wall map and then we have either drawn free hand (or I've print off maps) for them to colour/write on/mark/etc. Topics such as compass directions and landforms etc just seem to naturally occur.

 

Sorry, not really answering your question!

 

These links might help.

 

http://simplycharlottemason.com/blog/teaching-geography-subject-by-subject-part-4/

http://www.pennygardner.com/geography.html

 

 

[Ewe Mama]

I kind of know what you mean, Hunter. Early on in our homeschool journey, I purchased all of the Holling books and all of the D'Aulaire books because so many programs used them. The funny thing is, after reading through some of them, I don't even like them very much. I still have them and I will grit my teeth and use them, because maybe my kiddos will like them. I have scheduled BF American History Primary with my four youngers and the intermediate level with my eldest. Joy is also scheduled to use the BF Geography and History of the Horse.

 

I like the idea of having a literature based geography program which is why I went with the BF set. I haven't found anything similar using different books. The BF maps are quite cumbersome. If I use it again with my youngers, I will simply print out the appropriate blank maps on 8x11 cardstock.

 

I don't have the portability issue as we never go anywhere with our educational work. I know that part of the CM ideal is having books that are comfortable for children to hold and snuggle up with while reading. That description definitely does not apply to the Holling and D'Aulaire books reprinted by BF.

 

As to why BF has become such a popular entity under the umbrella of CM, I can only guess that it is because of the use of "good" literature and notebooking (written narration), scheduled two or three days each week to allow a child time to ponder and inwardly digest, rather than shoveling it in daily.

 

That's all I've got.

[Hunter]

I haven't used BF. We did use paddle to the sea last year -  we followed his journey in an atlas, and I just printed maps from the internet for us to colour/mark.  I'm not sure how CM that is! My son was more interested in just hearing the story, to him the map work got in the way. I'm not a huge fan of Holling, so that's the only book we've tried...

 

I bought the Sassafras books to use as a science read a loud, but to be honest they've actually became far more useful as a geography resource than anything else I've used. Again, we follow the journey using atlas/globes/wall map and then we have either drawn free hand (or I've print off maps) for them to colour/write on/mark/etc. Topics such as compass directions and landforms etc just seem to naturally occur.

 

Sorry, not really answering your question!

 

These links might help.

 

http://simplycharlottemason.com/blog/teaching-geography-subject-by-subject-part-4/

http://www.pennygardner.com/geography.html

 

Thank you for these links and tips. I'm casting my net very wide right now, before I can hope to narrow down what I want to do. I'm just very unbalanced in  CM style geography right now and it's going to take some wide reading. I kind of want to hear it all.

 

I know I don't need to teach geography in CM style, but I really want to use AO as my curriculum, because I see an excellent WHOLE product. I don't want to dwell on and complicate details, but he AO way feels pretty complicated, so before I invest any more heavily in BF resources, I just want to learn more about CM geography, because I may decide to tweak here. But if I do tweak, I want it to be harmonious with the rest of AO.

[Kfamily]

Hmmm, not sure whether CM would have used the Holling books for geography or not. I think she might have. From studying the old PNEU schedules, I've learned that she had her own geography series. I have to admit, from the layout and questions attached to these books, I was surprised at how conventional they felt. It certainly made me feel better about the idea of adapting the traditionally assumed approach to a CM curriculum and methods. I like the Holling books, of course, that may be because I'm in the thick of writing Book Notes for Pagoo right now. :) LOL! My younger daughter and I are nearly finished with Paddle to the Sea and plan to move into Tree in the Trail and Seabird next. I will be writing Book Notes for Tree in the Trail and maybe Seabird too. I think that CM did use a lot of exploration, travel and world culture books for geography in the older PNEU schedules. You also have to look at the Sunday reading book titles when looking at her old schedules. A lot of reading was included in the holiday and Sunday reading titles.

 

 

 

This is an excerpt from Year Four:

 

Geography (v. 3)

 

1. Geography books. Book 3, The counties of England by Charlotte Mason, 1842-1923

 

p. 1-102

 

or

 

Asia by Nellie Burnham Allen

 

p. 1-177, etc.

 

2. Round the Empire by George Robert Parkin, 1846-1922

 

p. 1-97

 

3. Our sea power: its story and its meaning by Horace West Household, b. 1870

 

p. 1-73

 

or

 

English voyages by Richard Hakluyt, 1552-1616

 

p. 1-144

 

All geography is to be learned with maps. "Ambleside" map questions are to be answered from maps in geography book and then from memory before each lesson, then reading and narration. Make memory sketch maps.

 

4. 10 minutes exercise on the map of the world every week.

 

5. Subscribe to the Home and Classroom section of The Times; know something about foreign places noticed in the current newspapers.

 

6. Suitable scouting tests (Parents' review, June 1920)

 

 

 

This is an excerpt from Year Seven:

 

Geography (v. 3)

 

1. Geography books. Book 4, Countries of Europe by Charlotte Mason, 1842-1923

 

p. 1-141; 277-308 (survey of Europe; France, Belgium, Holland, Spain, Portugal, Switzerland, Italy)

 

2. Fighting for sea power in the days of sail by Horace West Household, b. 1870

 

p. 1-107

 

or

 

From pole to pole by Sven Anders Hedin, 1865-1952 (407 p.)

 

3. Physical geography by Archibald Geikie, 1835-1924

 

sections 1-147

 

All geography is to be learned with maps. "Ambleside" map questions are to be answered from maps in geography book and names put into blank map (from memory) before each lesson, then reading and narration. Make memory sketch maps, especially of new (post WW-I) boundaries.

 

4. 10 minutes exercise on maps of the world, British Empire, and Great Britain every week.

 

Know something about foreign places coming into notice in the current newspapers.

 

5. Suitable scouting tests (Parents' review, June 1920)

 

6. (optional, as conjunction with study of Europe)

 

Travels with a donkey in the Cevennes by Robert Louis Stevenson, 1850-1894

 

Legends of the Alhambra by Washington Irving, 1783-1859

or

Hans Brinker, or, The silver skates by Mary Mapes Dodge

 

Heidi by Johanna Spyri

 

 

 

It is the last four books or so above that made me feel that I could use any quality literature book that had a least some geographical aspect to it and as long as I approached it in a CM way, could use it for geography. I use The Discovery of the Americas (Maestro) and Traveling Man (Rumford) in Year Three along with Paddle to the Sea. I wrote notes/guide for all three and I've include links to other resources, including maps, as well. I'll link the ones for Paddle to the Sea here.

 

Here are the Paddle to the Sea Book Notes:

 

https://workspaces.acrobat.com/app.html#d=2xq7nbBC2vWehBZJ4LEWbg

 

I actually have the student do a lot of map tracings. My daughter uses tracing paper and traces the maps in the books. She colors and labels them. Sometimes I have her draw them freehand. This is one way to not use the large BF maps...although I do have the BF maps and use those too.

 

Here are some links for Paddle to the Sea:

 

YouTube (Paddle-to-the-Sea movie)

The Great Lakes (Printable Map)http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/testmaps/glkoutline.htm

Printable Map http://www.goalongs.com/pdf/paddletosea1.pdf

Great Lakes (Labeled Color Map)http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/namerica/greatlk.htm

[Hunter]

I kind of know what you mean, Hunter. Early on in our homeschool journey, I purchased all of the Holling books and all of the D'Aulaire books because so many programs used them. The funny thing is, after reading through some of them, I don't even like them very much. I still have them and I will grit my teeth and use them, because maybe my kiddos will like them. I have scheduled BF American History Primary with my four youngers and the intermediate level with my eldest. Joy is also scheduled to use the BF Geography and History of the Horse.

 

I like the idea of having a literature based geography program which is why I went with the BF set. I haven't found anything similar using different books. The BF maps are quite cumbersome. If I use it again with my youngers, I will simply print out the appropriate blank maps on 8x11 cardstock.

 

I don't have the portability issue as we never go anywhere with our educational work. I know that part of the CM ideal is having books that are comfortable for children to hold and snuggle up with while reading. That description definitely does not apply to the Holling and D'Aulaire books reprinted by BF.

 

As to why BF has become such a popular entity under the umbrella of CM, I can only guess that it is because of the use of "good" literature and notebooking (written narration), scheduled two or three days each week to allow a child time to ponder and inwardly digest, rather than shoveling it in daily.

 

That's all I've got.

 

I'm thinking that BF was THERE and lit based, so…people use it. But it feels disharmonious to the rest of what I have going on. it's like I'm moving along smoothly and then there is this mess around Paddle. I'm clicking on links and see Google stuff and I'm supposed to install software and I'm thinking, "really!" And giant poster sized pieces of cardboard. How did I get HERE? Where is the snuggle book? I'm not getting it.

[Walking-Iris]

I don't know Hunter since I don't rely on ebooks. I'm not familiar with BF.

 

But I love the Holling books. Geography is a big priority in our homeschool. We cover it quite a bit.

 

We read Paddle to the Sea when my oldest was 1st grade. I've read it to my current little one.

 

They know the geography of the Great Lakes better than some adults. I didn't add anything other than a wall map. We may have watched a short youtube video.

 

But we cover geography in detail in a very hands on way that wouldn't necessarily work for you. (Continent boxes, puzzles, projects, flag pins).

 

Honestly some of my best homeschooling memories are from when I followed AO very closely. I didn't use the history resources, because I like history texts to be current.

 

But as my ds got older I felt that AO was getting too heavy for us. 

[Hunter]

Kfamily, thank you! I will read your post better later when I have more time. It's very meaty.

 

I too was struck by how conventional the CM geography books are. A lot of CM is just what was being done by a LOT–not all– educators at the time. She wasn't THAT radical.

 

I love reading vintage geography books. Geography was so much of a wider topic then than it is now, and often the only content subject taught to rural students. .

[sunshine clementine]

I am using AO, but not the geography. For my year 2 and 3, we are using sotw for mapwork. ( for those two grades those particular students love sotw, and we are using the program alongside AO history.) For my year five student, we are following (loosely) scm`s geography/mapwork recommendation. I dont really see the need to use a separate living books program for geography when you are using living books for history. Personally, I like working on mastering/memorizing the region that we are studying in history. Some of my feelings may come from the fact that neither I or the boys cared for the holling books..we borrowed them from the library, and they smelled terrible, and we didnt like the content enough to purchase. So, I think you could do a sufficiently CM geography incorporating black line maps into your living books history program. Hth

[Hunter]

Kfamily, thank for those maps!

[vaquitita]

Nm

Edited December 13, 2015 by vaquitita

[Hunter]

Yes, Walking Iris, I would like to avoid kits and pieces, at this time and place in my life. I'd like to do AO untweaked as much as possible. I'm not in the mood to tweak, and I have at least one student right now that adores the old books and is looking for a steady long term full curriculum. She's reading Boxcar children and loving all the passages about "bread and milk" and wants "more of that"

 

I spent 2 hours last night googling Paddle maps and ended out at all these blogs and just felt so confused. I have a few thought, but mostly right now I just want to listen to others talk about their experiences and thoughts.

 

My students like maps. Big bulky maps are out, but they like maps. I'm willing to invest some time and money into mapping. I'm just very confused about what direction to go, though.

 

I have the SOTW Kindle books and I own the maps for volume 1. I was thinking maybe that would be a good resource for maps that would often line up with AO, but wasn't sure if I should invest in some other set of maps.

 

And yes, I really like the AO Geography plan for the Long and CM book. I've been using bits and pieces of vintage geographies for years, the home geographies are still amazingly relevent, and the elementary books have bits and can serve as a scope and sequence when the parts are outdated. What AO did for Long and CM reminds me of what Ruth Beechick did for the Ray's math books. When I know what the objective is and how long I have to teach it, I find it easy to teach a topic mostly from vintage books.

 

I am blind as a bat today. I have eye strain and a migraine. Forgive me if I'm a little sporatic with responses today. I home instead of out, because I almost fainted on the way out the door, but I'm too impaired to properly research and respond. UGH!!!

[KeriJ]

I am using AO, but not the geography. For my year 2 and 3, we are using sotw for mapwork. ( for those two grades those particular students love sotw, and we are using the program alongside AO history.) For my year five student, we are following (loosely) scm`s geography/mapwork recommendation. I dont really see the need to use a separate living books program for geography when you are using living books for history. Personally, I like working on mastering/memorizing the region that we are studying in history. Some of my feelings may come from the fact that neither I or the boys cared for the holling books..we borrowed them from the library, and they smelled terrible, and we didnt like the content enough to purchase. So, I think you could do a sufficiently CM geography incorporating black line maps into your living books history program. Hth

 

This.  We use black line maps and do SCM style map drills based on what we are reading.  We studied the Middle Ages this past year, so we worked primarily on Europe.  Next year, we are doing American history, so we will work on North and South America.  We added Geography Songs for extra familiarity.  But I agree with the post quoted, that I don't see why we need separate book when we are already using a living book about that area.

[KeriJ]

These are nice: http://www.amazon.com/Uncle-Joshs-Outline-Map-Book/dp/0970240309

[vaquitita]

The baby just erased my long post. :irked the short version: the holling books are nice books and they cover US geography, I think that's why people like them. But if you don't like them, don't use them. Its the map work that is 'CM' not the books. Do map work with your other books. Or with your bible studies. Or find a small book or ebook that's set in an area you want your students to learn about. You can find outline maps online and print them out.

[Hunter]

This thread caught my attention.

http://simplycharlottemason.com/scmforum/topic/anyone-using-elementary-geography-by-cm-or-longs-home-geography

[Hunter]

Even if you don't live in NYC, this NYC Home Geography book can serve as a scope and sequence to create your own local nature study style geography course. CM's book was written to be used after something like this, right?

http://books.google.com/books?id=ieoYAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=home+geography&hl=en&sa=X&ei=wm-XU-WrJ4qlsQTWvIDoDQ&ved=0CDUQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=home%20geography&f=false

[Hunter]

Geography/nature study field trip ideas in this vintage book. Some destinations are still applicable. I hadn't really thought to visit a bridge.

http://books.google.com/books?id=2tlEAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA154&dq=home+geography&hl=en&sa=X&ei=r3WXU-yoDrHJsQS1oYK4Dg&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAzgK#v=onepage&q=home%20geography&f=false

[Hunter]

These are nice: http://www.amazon.com/Uncle-Joshs-Outline-Map-Book/dp/0970240309

 

Are these the ones you use?

[Hunter]

I think for right NOW, I'm going to use the Holling books for quick freereads,  amp up the AO 6 year outline, add mapping to the lit books when ever possible, take more advantage of current events, and plan more excursions to very ordinary places. And do some more studying, before I make any decisions.

 

There is so much SCIENCE in the vintage geographies. I downloaded a few that I have used in the past. Many of these cover the same topics in the 6 year AO outline. I'll also borrow some modern library books.

 

I think the only thing I really need to track down to purchase is some maps. 

[Hunter]

Are any of you using Map Trek with the AO Integration Guides?

http://www.knowledgequestmaps.com/Integration-Guides.html

[Ewe Mama]

Are any of you using Map Trek with the AO Integration Guides?

http://www.knowledgequestmaps.com/Integration-Guides.html

Those are great. Thanks for the link. I have the MapTrek collection, but I always forget to print out maps as we are reading. This will be a nice reminder.

[KeriJ]

Are these the ones you use?

 

They're the ones I wanted to use....and waited too long to go back to the table at the used book sale that had them! :(

  

I have Map Trek for the Ancient World.  I'll try those this year for my oldest (the youngers are doing American History).  I don't like the ones I was using before.

[Walking-Iris]

http://www.barefootmeandering.com/bookstore.html

 

Scroll down to American Geography and Lit. I have the 50 States books. 

[Hunter]

I picked up some of the AO Year 1 picture books from the library today. They are so big and bulky. They are pretty, BUT...I don't want to hold them, never mind store and transport them. 

 

Are the Herriot stories just chapters from his other books? I do have the treasury from audible.com, so I don't HAVE to have a book, but I prefer to read aloud to students than have them listen, at least the first time. 

 

Ben Franklin sure is pretty with all the folk art, BUT… that is overstimulating for the ADD students. It's too much. They won't be able to focus enough to LEARN anything from those pictures.

 

I've got some thinking to do about a few of these books.

 

I found the ancient bundle of Map Trek on a thumb drive. I guess I bought it at some point. :confused: The site says it's down and I can't try and purchase any of the other e-books. I don't know if it's just me, though. Maybe because I'm coming from this sale page is the problem?

http://www.knowledgequestmaps.com/Map-Sale.html

 

[claluck]

Geography for us is 2 part. We do check out things on our big map when we are reading most of our history and literature books.  Also we pick a focus area for the year.  We did China one year.  That was fun.  We put a big map of china on the dining table and covered it with plastic.  This year we did a Holy Land theme and smaller versions of those different countries. This coming year we are going to do a half of the year on south america and half a year on Central America.  Still with the map on the table.  I LOVE having the map on the table.  And almost every guest we have had to our house for dinner has become fully engrossed in it.  The kids also joke around together about what city they are eating at or what country depending on the map and we have tons of conversations about it.  We do reading and watch documentaries about the country throughout the year and will look up cultural events and foods.  It is a super fun part of our home school without being over burdensome or overly complicated.  We read classic older books and some newer ones.  Some of them are kindle books and such.  There are quite a few programs I have seen though not played with much on the internet where you can create/make/ view maps all online.  While there is something beautiful about drawing and painting your own maps if you have those skills we are also in a very technology driven world and our kids will only need to become more and more efficient with it.  I believe you mentioned on another post your son being into creating web stuff or mine craft, using those sort of tools to create maps to mimic could be fun and educational

christina

[Hunter]

I'm still doing a lot of thinking about this topic. I think as much as possible, I'm going to stick to the AO. As soon as I start tweaking, it's like dominoes falling. I have some of the books from the library. I bought the Herriot book for a penny, and plan to just rip it apart. I think I'm not going to invite trouble thinking ahead if I'll ALWAYS be able to have access to ALL the books when I need them. I'll just do whatever seems best at the time, but I'm going to preread the curriculum as written, and as best I can put away some maps and notes and such. But I'm just not going to worry about the books, for now.

[LMD]

We have used this one - racking my brain to remember if it has map work...

http://www.amazon.com/Charlotte-Masons-Elementary-Geography-Sandi/dp/B001HT8Z4G/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1402703217&sr=1-1&keywords=charlotte+mason+geography

[Hunter]

We have used this one - racking my brain to remember if it has map work...

http://www.amazon.com/Charlotte-Masons-Elementary-Geography-Sandi/dp/B001HT8Z4G/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1402703217&sr=1-1&keywords=charlotte+mason+geography

 

I have a free vintage copy of this book and it is used in the AO 6 year plan.

http://www.amblesideonline.org/geographysch.shtml

Does this updated one include maps?

 

I was having trouble with the Map Trek site until last night. If you click on old pages that come up at google, the cart and newsletter sign up doesn't work. But I managed to sign up for the newsletter and they sent a coupon for all 6 ebooks for $37.00 that only lasts a day. So if you think you might want to purchase, but want time to think, WAIT to sign up for that newsletter. I got mine at 10:30 PM and didn't know if it would last till morning. UGH!

[stripe]

Are the Herriot stories just chapters from his other books?

No, the stories for kids are stories written for children. They flesh out in a detailed way, aimed at children, incidents about animals from his career.

 

I read the whole series for adults (All Creatures Great and Small, etc) within the past year, and recognized a few of the stories in them that are in the kids' books, but his books for adults are *totally* different and obviously written to an adult audience (I don't mean anything sleazy, and there is direct talk about both birth related issues and castration, but also alcohol drinking at pubs, and just a general adult-audience reflection on changes in farming and veterinary medicine).

[Ellie]

I'm not trying to push an idea or looking for people to agree. I'm just feeling stuck, here. I'm feeling disconnect between the BF books and the rest of CM/AO. I don't know how I want to move forward. I figured some general conversation might shed some light somewhere about something.

 

The Beautiful Feet Books study guides are based on the Principle Approach, which would seem to me not to be particularly compatible with Charlotte Mason, although of course the books that are used in the study guides are just...books, and can surely be used with any method, yes?

[Hunter]

This is an old thread. All the Holling books went back to the library. I got the Herriot book for a penny plus shipping and I have the audio book. I think the pictures and accent on the audio are good prep for future British Literature.