MCT users... Thinking of switching from WWE/FLL to start in 1st

[PagesandFields]

I'm not planning on starting 1st for a year... but I'm trying to figure it all out really early to gather materials and study everything myself...  I was planning on using WWE - hopefully the manual with my own writing selections if I could get my act together... But...

 

I have a VERY language driven almost 5yo boy... He's whip smart but doesn't have a strong drive to be independent... He, I suspect, also has some perfectionist/anxiety types of issues too...  He does NOT like to do things that he doesn't already know how to do, and he doesn't like to do things on his own...  So... My goal is in the early years to have it be as fun as possible... I think once he feels more comfortable with written and reading language he'll tap into his own internal drive a bit... But I feel like I really need to be gentle with him until he gets to that point... 

 

So I love the looks of WWE... We are very charlotte masony in our philosophy/approach and I've even considered not doing grammar at all until 3-4th grade....

 

But I've looked at the MCT books and to be honest they just look like they'll be a better fit for DS... They look more fun, they seem more expedient...  I don't know... I suspect they might help him tap into his innate language abilities more gently and efficiently... does that make sense?  

 

BUT... .they're expensive, and I have never seen any in person - only samples online.  

 

What have your experiences been?  Especially in the elementary ages?  

 

Thank you so much for reading if you made it this far... I wish there was a gigantic homeschool in-person book store with everything I'm considering...  The amount of curriculum I buy then sell because in person it's different!  Ack!  :)

[SarahW]

Why don't you start FLL now? There's no magic to starting it in "1st". If your kid likes language, he could have fun with it. You can do it completely orally and slow down or speed up as you want.

 

My kid is good at language (maybe because he was once bilingual) and when I finally got around to starting FLL in December (so halfway through 1st) he just blew through it. Good thing I got the old combined copy, because we have just finally slowed down with prepositions, but are still on track to complete it before the end of the school year.

 

I'm planning to do Island with him this next year. I'm glad I did FLL with him first. He does need something that moves faster, but he really liked the concrete definitions and "tell me everything I need to know now" aspect of FLL. Without having those, I think Island would confuse him. He is also a perfectionist, who shuts down if he isn't absolutely sure of the answer, so the "explore and think" approach of MCT wouldn't be a good fit without the definitions to fall back on. For him, I think Island is an excellent way to apply and cement everything he has learned in FLL 1&2.

 

As for WWE, I don't know. I printed off the samples to try on my kid, and he was not enthused. I do different copywork/narration/dictation with him through our other curriculum, and we are pretty happy with that. Those things are also in FLL (or, at least, my old copy) so we stay sharp in them,

 

Have to feed baby....tbc.

[PagesandFields]

Cool!  Thank you both!  

 

Has anyone ever not done any kind of grammar and just waited until age 8 or so and begun with MCT?  I seriously just need to decide what I'm doing and not let myself change my mind.... 

[Chrysalis Academy]

I think delaying formal grammar till 8 is fine, and MCT is a great way to introduce it for a kid who clicks with MCT.  I can't see any reason to drill and drill and drill on the parts of speech for years when they will learn it all in just a few weeks when they are a bit older.  I think if you are doing writing via Charlotte Mason style narrations and copywork you will very naturally introduce some concepts - nouns and verbs, adjectives and adverbs, subject and predicates, starting sentences with a capital and ending with a period, basic stuff like that, very naturally via copywork.  They can learn a ton without a formal program as they are learning to write, and then you can do the formal grammar later.  

 

If that is what feels right to you, that's what you should do! 

[Lifebreakingin]

I got the Island books for a fun supplement for DD when she was five. She adored them. She got the grammar and much of the poetry and ideas about writing, but we didn't DO all the activities/practice. But yes it really can click with a highly verbal child IMO. And now we pull them out to guide us when tackling a writing assignment (she goes to a part time charter) and to review, and for stimulation over the summer etc.

[Dmmetler]

MCT is written for PS GT programs for about 3rd grade, and there's really not much grammar taught in K-2 PS, so you'll be fine starting MCT at age 8 with just doing Charlotte Mason copywork before then. If anything, your DC will be ahead of the expectation. That's one reason why so many of us use MCT younger, because it really does start out basic. However, the writing is anything but, and it ramps up a lot between Island and Town. In my DD's case, we've kind of stopped after town for two reasons-the first is that she's got a heavy load anyway, and taking time to stretch out the writing wasn't a bad thing for her-and the second was that she scored ridiculously high on the English section of the EXPLORE, so I kind of figure that grammar is something I can let slide a bit ;). She loves MCT and wants to go back to it, but they're expensive books to just let sit because we don't have time to do everything, and they're not something DD can do on her own (which was one reason why I did buy the LOF LA -I don't think she'll learn anything new from them, but she loves Fred and he's something she can do independently).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Woodland Mist Academy]

We have always used a mix of language arts resources--several each year. Amongst the resources were FLL in first grade, FLL and WWE in second, and MCT in 3rd. That worked well for us. The paths are many and varied, however. There are lots of ways to get where you're going. :)

[Crimson Wife]

My oldest did a compacted version of FLL 1/2 in K and it worked well for her. I tried FLL with my DS but he had NO retention. It is such an auditory program that it didn't fit his learning style AT ALL. So we shelved FLL and just did things like watching Grammar Rock videos, playing Mad Libs, and making handmade books for some of the parts of speech. Then he did MCT "island" the 2nd semester of 1st and the 1st semester of 2nd.

[SarahW]

Continuing....

 

I was going to talk writing. As already mentioned, the writing in Island may be a bit much. I'm still perusing the writing portions, but I know my kid would not have done well with them this year. And the 4-level analysis would have frustrated him, I think. That requires a certain level of reasoning skills that just develop in their own time.

 

As for whether to wait or not... Well, imo, if you can knock out something as boring as the 8 parts of speech sooner, you should do it sooner, and not later. Can your kid pick it up easily now? If so, then why wait? And what are your future goals? Will you be doing Latin or foreign language? If you can get done with basic English grammar sooner, those things may go easier, and you'll have more time to work on them.

 

I know some say you can learn grammar by learning Latin or another language. Sure, that's what I did. I learned grammar when I took Greek in high school. It was hard. Really, really hard. Trying to distinguish between nouns and verbs with foreign words is just another burden. A very frustrating burden. Hence, my opinion to get that over and done with as soon as possible.

 

Like I said, 1st isn't a magic number. Neither is 3rd or any other grade. If your kid doesn't "get it" you can always put it away until later. Putting things away is easier than racing to play catch up.

 

Oh, and MCT isn't magic either. It's good, and neat, and all that. But....I wouldn't trust it 100% to be the be all and end all of English language arts. I'm not sure about going on to Town myself. There's lots of good options out there. Ones that would balance out some of MCT's, ah, idiosyncrasies.

[PagesandFields]

THank you all so much!  I think for now, if I decide to do some grammar I'll do FLL this next year, then try MCT maybe at 7-8...  

 

As for my plans and background...  I learned grammar best from taking Latin.  I took it in 5th grade.  I plan on teaching the kids spanish (mostly verbal).  And Latin starting later...  I haven't decided exactly when yet.  

 

But as a tangent.. The Charlotte Mason way of waiting makes a lot of sense to me.  Back in the day I did some research and lots of reading into language and indigenous cultures.... and the differences between pictoral language versus alphabet, written language versus just spoken.  Anyhoo - there's some fragmenting of thought and self and understanding that happens when we create abstract symbols to communicate thoughts...  This is a complete tangent... but that old reading plus some waldorf reading I did when my first was young made me feel like for US anyway, waiting for things like phonics and grammar makes sense.  But I also really want my kids to truly understand grammar because I've always struggled with it.  So my take has been not to push it - but to possibly expose them to it and follow their interest level.  

 

SO...  The reason for maybe waiting is that I don't want to stifle what right now is a very comfortable language ability by fragmenting it too much yet...  And...  since grammar is finite - I like the idea of maybe starting in 2-3rd grade, then starting Latin 1-2 grades after that.  

 

But... the reasons to do it now are that FLL is sweet, and I think would be fun, and if it's not going to hurt why not get it done!  :)  So - I feel conflicted.  Frankly I might just tease around with FLL a tiny bit and see if it feels right.  

[acurtis75]

MCT is written for PS GT programs for about 3rd grade, and there's really not much grammar taught in K-2 PS, so you'll be fine starting MCT at age 8 with just doing Charlotte Mason copywork before then. If anything, your DC will be ahead of the expectation. That's one reason why so many of us use MCT younger, because it really does start out basic. However, the writing is anything but, and it ramps up a lot between Island and Town. In my DD's case, we've kind of stopped after town for two reasons-the first is that she's got a heavy load anyway, and taking time to stretch out the writing wasn't a bad thing for her-and the second was that she scored ridiculously high on the English section of the EXPLORE, so I kind of figure that grammar is something I can let slide a bit ;). She loves MCT and wants to go back to it, but they're expensive books to just let sit because we don't have time to do everything, and they're not something DD can do on her own (which was one reason why I did buy the LOF LA -I don't think she'll learn anything new from them, but she loves Fred and he's something she can do independently).

 

I didn't know there were LOF LA books...you are not good for my budget dmmetler :lol: . I am feeling the same way you did after the explore testing and was considering either finding a less formal approach or even skipping grammar and focusing more on writing.

[Crimson Wife]

If you want something fun, look into the Classical Academic Press "Song School" books. DS did the Latin ones (he's just finishing up SSL 2) but they also have Spanish.

[Tanikit]

I wasn't planning on starting grammar very early and so bought nothing - then found grammarland which is free and decided to try that with my 6 year old and it has been fine - I figured if it didn't work it didn't matter, but it has actually worked very well for now. I am not sure where we will go after this though. I have also looked at other more basic grammar worksheets and added anything I felt she needed to know into her normal writing and reading and this has worked fine.

[PagesandFields]

If you want something fun, look into the Classical Academic Press "Song School" books. DS did the Latin ones (he's just finishing up SSL 2) but they also have Spanish.

 

Song School Spanish is on my wish list for next year.  :)

[Tracy]

I waited until this year to start with my dd9 (8yo when we started).  She is like your ds--language driven but not independent.  I considered FLL when she was younger, but I just didn't feel that she needed that kind of repetition for grammar.  In the meantime, we were using WWE and SWR, and both of those programs have some grammar woven into them.  Though neither is by any means a full grammar program, dd learns and retains this stuff easily, so this sort of integrated exposure was perfect for her.  

 

ETA:  We also did a year of Latin.  

 

I considered MCT, since it can be used with gifted 3rd graders.  But I was also aware of the significant jump in difficulty.  I didn't want to love MCT and then have to find something to fill in a year.  So this year, we did Grammarland, and she really liked it a lot.  I do not feel that she is the least bit behind in grammar because we started formal grammar later.  

 

I have purchased MCT for next year, and I am confident that she will enjoy that, too.  

[SeaConquest]

If you are CM-inclined, you might want to check out English Lessons Through Literature. I had planned to use WWE next year with my 5 yr old, but we decided on ELTL for K and MCT Island for 1st. 

[EndOfOrdinary]

The computer totally flipped out on my quote....meh....

 

SO...  The reason for maybe waiting is that I don't want to stifle what right now is a very comfortable language ability by fragmenting it too much yet...  And...  since grammar is finite - I like the idea of maybe starting in 2-3rd grade, then starting Latin 1-2 grades after that.  

 

But... the reasons to do it now are that FLL is sweet, and I think would be fun, and if it's not going to hurt why not get it done!   :)  So - I feel conflicted.  Frankly I might just tease around with FLL a tiny bit and see if it feels right.   - Pages and Fields

 

Just so that you don't wind up with a burst bubble you might want to have a contingency plan for the waiting thing.  I was all for unschooling and a much more Waldorfy feel to our homeschool.  Totally hippie Earth mother thing.  Yeah, my kid killed that before the age of 5.  It is not who he is and that made all the difference. 

 

Your plan might be ideal, but it might also be just that your plan.  If he is interested in language and really wanting to learn, you should teach him.  Behavior problems can become rather extreme with many accelerated kids if they are not allowed to openly learn.  Secondly, if he is accelerated then the first two years of homeschooling can be so intense that you don't want to smash anything more into that time than absolutely necessary.  Slower introductions can sometimes be total family life savers.

 

You don't have to openly start, but you might want it waiting in the wings if he wants to.

 

[CrunchyGirl]

(which was one reason why I did buy the LOF LA -I don't think she'll learn anything new from them, but she loves Fred and he's something she can do independently).

 

Same here. One one hand I can't believe I bought those books (talk about useless) but of course it's Fred and Fred is his best friend. Interestingly though he doesn't obsessively read them like he does the math books.

[theYoungerMrsWarde]

Early Bird (very language oriented) was 3.5 (?) when he started listening to his older brother's FLL1 lessons and 4 when he started insisting I ask him the questions, too. I also added stuff to FLL1 to make it more hands on for my kinetic learner, Builder Boy. I've been blogging about the stuff I added if you're interested. There is a lot of other stuff in FLL1 that I think makes it a great kindergarten program.