Hake grammar questions

[SewLittleTime]

We've used R&S Grammar for 2 years (for 5th and 6th).  Ds is bogged down with the writing aspect of it.  He gets the grammar concepts.  It takes him forever to complete a lesson if I have him write it.  We modified to make it work this year by doing most of it orally and then diagramming on the whiteboard.  I can not keep doing it that way.  I am adding my dd to the mix next year, and he needs to be able to do some of his work more independently so that I have time to teach her to read.

 

We've both looked at Hake, and he likes the look of it.  He does Saxon Math and likes it too.  How much writing is actually involved?  Is he going to spend an hour copying to do one little grammar assignment.  

 

Those of you that use it, can you tell me more about what the lessons look like in your home.  How are your kids doing with it?  Do they like it? (as far liking grammar goes :glare:) 

 

 

[Hunter]

I'm kinda of the idea, that being able to copy is more important than grammar. If they can't even copy, then they can't write.

 

Personally, I'd be dealing with the child's struggle with copying/writing, and I'd forget about the grammar for now, if I was dealing with a time crunch.

[amsunshine]

We use Hake, and do most of the lessons orally.  There isn't any copywork in the grammar lessons, themselves.  I do use the tests, though, and those are written, but there is no copying that they have to do on those.  We don't use the writing portion, however -- that may be where you are thinking there is copywork.  Can't tell you much about that.  If you want him to do the grammar lessons in writing, just have him write in the book.

 

ETA:  Forgot to say that we like the program very much!  It is very thorough and we enjoy the additional vocabulary at the beginning of each lesson, as well.

[Haiku]

I'm kinda of the idea, that being able to copy is more important than grammar. If they can't even copy, then they can't write.

 

I'd have agreed with you until I ended up with a dyslexic son. He can't copy at all. His writing is coming along nicely, though.

 

We used Hake. I loved it. My dd didn't like the format (spiral). Yes, there is a lot of copying. I let dd write in the book instead of rewriting everything.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

My dd just writes in the book. There could be a much or as little copying as you choose.

[EmilyGF]

Listening in... I really like the spiral nature of Hake.

[EKS]

If you use the "nonconsumable" Hake book (that is printed on newsprint) as a workbook, you will eliminate the writing problem.

[EKS]

If they can't even copy, then they can't write.

 

Copying and writing are two very different things. 

 

[SewLittleTime]

He copies just fine. We spent the time in the younger years with copy work and dictation. He completed all 4 levels of WWE, WWS 1, and is working through WWS 2. What I mean is that it I need something less time consuming.

 

I like the idea of the consumable workbook for Hake. That alone may be the answer. I'll check that out.

[Hunter]

Unless there is a specific LD involved or a vision problem, I have yet to meet a child who can write, that cannot copy. 

 

The homeschool world is made up of the exceptions to the rules; I realize that. There will be children that my GENERAL statements do not apply to. But in GENERAL, it is putting the cart before the horse to worry about grammar with a child that is not yet solid in copying and dictation.

 

If the primary goal is to have the child complete an on grade level grammar text, then switching curricula will meet that goal. If learning to WRITE is the primary goal, then for MANY children the basic handwriting and spelling and stamina issues need to be dealt with first. Writers benefit from grammar curricula, but grammar curricula do not produce writers. Cart before the horse, here, in too many cases.

[SewLittleTime]

Hunter, I'm not sure if you are addressing someone else I'm the thread or me. If it is me, perhaps I am not communicating effectively. Again, my son can copy. He is writing essays. I am concerned about the amount of time it takes to complete R&S. It eats up so much of our time. I feel like grammar can be accomplished in much less time.

[Pen]

...

 

Those of you that use it, can you tell me more about what the lessons look like in your home.  How are your kids doing with it?  Do they like it? (as far liking grammar goes :glare:) 

 

 

I have these same questions!

 

For those of you happily using Hake/Saxon grammar, what level are you using for a what age/grade child? And did you jump in midstream, or start from the beginning?

[Hunter]

Hunter, I'm not sure if you are addressing someone else I'm the thread or me. If it is me, perhaps I am not communicating effectively. Again, my son can copy. He is writing essays. I am concerned about the amount of time it takes to complete R&S. It eats up so much of our time. I feel like grammar can be accomplished in much less time.

 

You are doing the lessons orally to help him focus, not because he is a slow writer?

[Hunter]

 

I have these same questions!

 

For those of you happily using Hake/Saxon grammar, what level are you using for a what age/grade child? And did you jump in midstream, or start from the beginning?

 

 

Pen, as I said in another thread, I've only seen level 7. But at least level 7 is a lot like Saxon math. Doing the complete problem sets can be brutal unless the student is placed low enough. It can be very tempting to place a student too high in a spiral curriculum. Long problem sets with lots of variety are meant to be EASY. They must be easy.

 

Most students can work at a higher level when doing one topic at a time, than they can alot of mixed review.

[scott777]

Hi Penn/SewLittleTime,

 

 I think I wrote something in another thread about Hake Grammar and our experiences with the program,  but I will summarize here.  Our two sons,  who were publicly schooled up to this year, started homeschooling in what would have been their 4th and 6th grade years.

 

So both of them had a pretty superficial understanding of formal grammar when beginning the Hake books.  The public schools do work on a good amount of writing however.  Each of the children was placed in the corresponding Hake book for their grade level (4th and 6th).  Both of them did very well with the program which is very detailed.  Their test averages were both over 85%, which I think is fine with such a deep program.  The tests cover grammar usage, diagramming, and vocabulary.

 

So how does the lesson play out in our home?

 

One component of the Hake Grammar program is the oral dictation exercises.  These exercises are an addition to normal daily lesson. At the start of the week, lets say it is Monday,  the student copies a dictation passage from their book into their notebook.  They will study this dictation at the start of each subsequent day for about 5 focusing on punctuation, spelling, and capitalization.  At the start of the Friday grammar time,  we read the dictation test to our child and they write it in a notebook.  This takes about 10 minutes.  We then grade the dictation test and then have the child fix it, or perhaps write words 10 times for spelling errors.

 

Days that do not include the dictation copying or the dictation test (Monday and Friday)  start with a journaling exercise.  The student picks a journal topic from the book and is supposed to write about that topic for 5-10 minutes in their journal notebook.  We follow Hake's advice and do not grade these journal writings.  Hake wants it to be a private and non-threating experience.

 

Normal daily grammar lessons are either grammar lessons, writing lessons, or tests.  The entire year is scheduled in the teacher manual for around 143 days.  Usually the schedule follows 5-7 days in a row of grammar or writing lessons with a test on the next day.  Days that have tests also include a writing lesson.  Typically the next 2 or 3 days after the test day consist of writing lessons.

 

So, a day may look like 5 minutes of them copying their dictation exercise or journaling, followed by them doing a grammar lesson.  The grammar lesson will usually take them about 25-35 minutes.  They will read the lesson by themselves and ask my wife for any clarifications from their reading.  This is very rare however, as they seem to understand the lesson and the example with solutions very well.  Then they will be faced with 5-10 practice questions followed my the 30 mixed problem set.  My wife corrects the lesson in less than 5 minutes and then the kids will fix the questions they got wrong.  Again, I would say that a regular grammar lesson takes about 25-35 minutes total for the student.  The rest of the week will follow suit except for the Friday dictation test before the grammar lesson instead of a journal entry.

 

The next Monday will be a test day.  Really it is the 6th day is the test day and this will keep shifting.  It is never the same day of the week because the writing lesson are variable.  So on a test day, it will typically take them 15 minutes to complete the test.  We grade it and they fix it for another 5 minutes.  Then they will do the writing lesson assigned to that test day.  Usually these writing lessons on test day are rather brief and may take 10-15 minutes.

 

Very often after a test day, the next day or two consists of a follow up writing lessons.  There are no grammar lesson on the same day as a writing lesson.  So there may be 2 days of writing lessons and then 5 days of grammar lessons with the test the next day. So you can't count on tests being the same day each week.

 

I love the incremental nature of the program that emulates the Saxon math program.  Same Saxon author, Stephen Hake, developed this grammar series and it shows.  Love how the vocabulary is part of that continual review provided with the mixed practice sets.  From our experience,  it seems that this gives the child a great recognition of these vocabulary words but definitely not a mastered memorization of them.  So we enter the words into Quizlet vocabulary lists and have them study lists of 20 words and prefixes at a time for about 10 minutes a day to strengthen the vocabulary memorization.

 

I have read some negative, maybe not negative, buy concerned reviews of the writing instruction that Hake provides.  My wife, who taught English and writing in grammar school thinks they provide excellent instruction regarding the writing process and organization of the different styles of writing.  Some people may be concerned that the amount of writing is not enough.  My kids did about 10 different formal writing products such as: Poems, chapter summary, imaginative story, descriptive essay, personal narrative, research paper, expository essay, persuasive essay etc.  We just had them do a couple repeats with topics or our choosing.  They followed the lesson guidance with the new topic.  So a parent can just add to the writing requirement if they wish. 

 

The writing workbook then take the child through an evaluation of the essay where the the child assesses their work.  We still grade and mark the essay after this evaluation.

 

I have the 4th - 8th grade books.  Each book is incremental just like Saxon Math, and each followup book basically cycles through everything from the previous book but at a deeper level.  Personally, I would be sure that if a student goes through at least the 6th-8th books, they will have an excellent knowledge of grammar with it's usage to writing.  Throw in the vocabulary and the dictation exercises, and I just love this series.  

 

I think I would do it again the same way as far as putting the kids in their respective grade level books, 4th and 6th.  However, if I had a 7th grader,  I might want them to start in the 6th grade book for the benefit of cycling through at least 3 books in the series.  My opinion is that 3 books 6-8 th grade would be very good but anything before that through the 8th grade book will be excellent.  I can't wait to see how my 4th grader is doing after the 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th.  Maybe he will get bored!  :)  Right now he loves it though.

 

Hope this helps

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[rewardsfromheaven]

I think Scott777 summed it up very well!

My 5th grader just finished Hake 5.  I had him write answers in the student book, which is a huge time saver, rather than writing out the answers in a notebook.  We didn't do the writing portion of it.  It was very open and go and he could work independently most of the time, unless he didn't understand something.  On average, he would spend about 20-30 minutes each day on a lesson.  

[Woodland Mist Academy]

My daughter does a lesson a day, writing directly in the book. It only takes about 10 minutes or so. About once a week she does a review. We used Hake 7 in 6th and Hake 8 in 7th. It's been a perfect fit for us.

 

(Grammar is one of my dd's strengths, though. YMMV. :) )

[73349]

If you love a grammar book but wish it were a workbook, you could type sentences from it in a larger font and print them out. (I wouldn't try it with everything, but usually an exercise of 10 or 20 sentences has only four worth doing.)

[Pen]

Hi Penn/SewLittleTime,

 

 I think I wrote something in another thread about Hake Grammar and our experiences with the program,  but I will summarize here.  Our two sons,  who were publicly schooled up to this year, started homeschooling in what would have been their 4th and 6th grade years.

 

So both of them had a pretty superficial understanding of formal grammar when beginning the Hake books.  The public schools do work on a good amount of writing however.  Each of the children was placed in the corresponding Hake book for their grade level (4th and 6th).  Both of them did very well with the program which is very detailed.  Their test averages were both over 85%, which I think is fine with such a deep program.  The tests cover grammar usage, diagramming, and vocabulary.

 

So how does the lesson play out in our home?

 

One component of the Hake Grammar program is the oral dictation exercises.  These exercises are an addition to normal daily lesson. At the start of the week, lets say it is Monday,  the student copies a dictation passage from their book into their notebook.  They will study this dictation at the start of each subsequent day for about 5 focusing on punctuation, spelling, and capitalization.  At the start of the Friday grammar time,  we read the dictation test to our child and they write it in a notebook.  This takes about 10 minutes.  We then grade the dictation test and then have the child fix it, or perhaps write words 10 times for spelling errors.

 

Days that do not include the dictation copying or the dictation test (Monday and Friday)  start with a journaling exercise.  The student picks a journal topic from the book and is supposed to write about that topic for 5-10 minutes in their journal notebook.  We follow Hake's advice and do not grade these journal writings.  Hake wants it to be a private and non-threating experience.

 

Normal daily grammar lessons are either grammar lessons, writing lessons, or tests.  The entire year is scheduled in the teacher manual for around 143 days.  Usually the schedule follows 5-7 days in a row of grammar or writing lessons with a test on the next day.  Days that have tests also include a writing lesson.  Typically the next 2 or 3 days after the test day consist of writing lessons.

 

So, a day may look like 5 minutes of them copying their dictation exercise or journaling, followed by them doing a grammar lesson.  The grammar lesson will usually take them about 25-35 minutes.  They will read the lesson by themselves and ask my wife for any clarifications from their reading.  This is very rare however, as they seem to understand the lesson and the example with solutions very well.  Then they will be faced with 5-10 practice questions followed my the 30 mixed problem set.  My wife corrects the lesson in less than 5 minutes and then the kids will fix the questions they got wrong.  Again, I would say that a regular grammar lesson takes about 25-35 minutes total for the student.  The rest of the week will follow suit except for the Friday dictation test before the grammar lesson instead of a journal entry.

 

The next Monday will be a test day.  Really it is the 6th day is the test day and this will keep shifting.  It is never the same day of the week because the writing lesson are variable.  So on a test day, it will typically take them 15 minutes to complete the test.  We grade it and they fix it for another 5 minutes.  Then they will do the writing lesson assigned to that test day.  Usually these writing lessons on test day are rather brief and may take 10-15 minutes.

 

Very often after a test day, the next day or two consists of a follow up writing lessons.  There are no grammar lesson on the same day as a writing lesson.  So there may be 2 days of writing lessons and then 5 days of grammar lessons with the test the next day. So you can't count on tests being the same day each week.

 

I love the incremental nature of the program that emulates the Saxon math program.  Same Saxon author, Stephen Hake, developed this grammar series and it shows.  Love how the vocabulary is part of that continual review provided with the mixed practice sets.  From our experience,  it seems that this gives the child a great recognition of these vocabulary words but definitely not a mastered memorization of them.  So we enter the words into Quizlet vocabulary lists and have them study lists of 20 words and prefixes at a time for about 10 minutes a day to strengthen the vocabulary memorization.

 

I have read some negative, maybe not negative, buy concerned reviews of the writing instruction that Hake provides.  My wife, who taught English and writing in grammar school thinks they provide excellent instruction regarding the writing process and organization of the different styles of writing.  Some people may be concerned that the amount of writing is not enough.  My kids did about 10 different formal writing products such as: Poems, chapter summary, imaginative story, descriptive essay, personal narrative, research paper, expository essay, persuasive essay etc.  We just had them do a couple repeats with topics or our choosing.  They followed the lesson guidance with the new topic.  So a parent can just add to the writing requirement if they wish. 

 

The writing workbook then take the child through an evaluation of the essay where the the child assesses their work.  We still grade and mark the essay after this evaluation.

 

I have the 4th - 8th grade books.  Each book is incremental just like Saxon Math, and each followup book basically cycles through everything from the previous book but at a deeper level.  Personally, I would be sure that if a student goes through at least the 6th-8th books, they will have an excellent knowledge of grammar with it's usage to writing.  Throw in the vocabulary and the dictation exercises, and I just love this series.  

 

I think I would do it again the same way as far as putting the kids in their respective grade level books, 4th and 6th.  However, if I had a 7th grader,  I might want them to start in the 6th grade book for the benefit of cycling through at least 3 books in the series.  My opinion is that 3 books 6-8 th grade would be very good but anything before that through the 8th grade book will be excellent.  I can't wait to see how my 4th grader is doing after the 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th.  Maybe he will get bored!   :)  Right now he loves it though.

 

Hope this helps

 

 

Yes!  Thanks!!!

[boscopup]

We've used R&S Grammar for 2 years (for 5th and 6th).  Ds is bogged down with the writing aspect of it.  He gets the grammar concepts.  It takes him forever to complete a lesson if I have him write it.  We modified to make it work this year by doing most of it orally and then diagramming on the whiteboard.  I can not keep doing it that way.  I am adding my dd to the mix next year, and he needs to be able to do some of his work more independently so that I have time to teach her to read.

 

We've both looked at Hake, and he likes the look of it.  He does Saxon Math and likes it too.  How much writing is actually involved?  Is he going to spend an hour copying to do one little grammar assignment.  

 

Those of you that use it, can you tell me more about what the lessons look like in your home.  How are your kids doing with it?  Do they like it? (as far liking grammar goes :glare:) 

 

With R&S, were you having him do every exercise? When my son did R&S English 5, I had him only do about half the exercises, and I assigned only about 2 exercises if there were whole sentences to write. We were writing elsewhere in our curriculum, so the writing portion didn't have to be in grammar as much. We're using Hake 6 now (though aren't very far into it), and so far, we have done the new material practice orally, then he does the 30 review exercises on separate paper. That hasn't been too much writing for him (and he is writing phobic). It takes him about 10-15 minutes to do the lesson.

 

Now if it's taking your son forever, I wonder if it's an attitude issue? I've seen this in my son many times - something is boring, so he drags it out. I've told him that if something is easy, he can do it quickly. If it's not easy, he needs the practice. ;) After repeating that a few times, he finally realized that he could get the boring thing over with quickly by just sitting down and doing it quickly. I say this because there seems to be a disconnect with your son able to write essays but not able to finish a R&S English lesson somewhat quickly even though he understands the grammar. That sounds like boredom slow-down to me.

 

I think the writing involved is fairly equivalent between R&S and Hake, but Hake is a bit more interesting because you have different types of exercises in the same lesson. So my son doesn't dawdle with Hake the same way he did with R&S at times.

 

 

 

I have these same questions!

 

For those of you happily using Hake/Saxon grammar, what level are you using for a what age/grade child? And did you jump in midstream, or start from the beginning?

 

 

We jumped in at Hake 6 at the end of 4th grade. I plan to use it only a couple times a week, so it will probably last through 5th and a tiny bit into 6th. Looking through it, I don't see anything that will be too difficult for my son, but he gets grammar easily. You certainly don't have to start at the beginning. Hake is like all the other traditional grammar programs - reviewing everything from the start and very repetitive from year to year. For an average child, I would start at grade level.

 

We are not using the Writing portion. I have other curricula for that job that I like better.

[Hunter]

Jumping into Hake after ANOTHER intensive grammar program is entirely different than a strong reader with NO grammar jumping into an advanced level of Hake.

 

 

[scott777]

I think the Hake Publishing FAQ page supports what Hunter is saying regarding placement in the Hake Program.
 
http://www.hakepublishing.com/grammar-and-writing-faq.html
 
 
Is there a placement test for Grammar and Writing like there is for Saxon® Math?
In the past we offered a placement test, but nearly every student placed at the lowest level due to insufficient grammar preparation. We now recommend placing a student at grade level if the student reads comfortably at or above grade level. If a student struggles with reading, starting at a lower level is strongly recommended.
 
In what ways does the content differ from grade level to grade level?
Similar grammatical content is presented at each level, but the depth and difficulty increases from book to book while some new content is added. Students in the lower level books still learn a great deal of grammar content, but the reading level and vocabulary are less challenging. 

Students starting the program in later grades will not miss any prior grammar content. 
The reading level, subject depth, pace of instruction, coverage of new topics, 
and vocabulary difficulty increase with each grade level.

 
 
 
Questions from Teachers and Parents:
Do students need to start with the first book?
It is not necessary for older students to start at the lower levels, since prior-year topics are fully reviewed in the upper levels. The grade levels are differentiated by reading level, vocabulary difficulty, curriculum standards, and the overall pace and depth of instruction. No prior grammar instruction is required to begin at any grade level.
For best results, we recommend that students start at their comfortable reading level, but not higher than their current grade level, and complete a minimum of two years of the program. This will ensure that a strong foundation of language mastery endures, serving the students very well throughout higher education and adulthood.

Students beginning the curriculum in later grades will not miss any prior grammar content. 
The reading level, subject depth, pace of instruction, coverage of additional topics, 
and vocabulary difficulty increase with each level.