At my wits end

[Plateau Mama]

You:

My house is a war zone. The only way to keep the peace is for no one to say anything.

 

Me:

Are you saying he is aggressive or violent? I don't understand how moping and complaining becomes a war.

 

 

Me:

"Throwing a fit" is more than talking. Do you mean he screams, wails, falls on the floor, thrashes etc?

 

I didn't say he can do anything about his feelings, I said that talking should be OK most if the time, even if it is "negative".

 

If he "throws fits" please give me more info, so I can better understand.

He will throw things. Stomp, scream, slam doors. He had also caused physical harm to himself and his brother. He does not intentionally hurt him, ever. This has lessened as his brother has gotten older and can stand up for himself more but when he gets out of control our #1 priority is making sure the little guy is not accidentally in the line of fire.

[Farrar]

Yes. It's only words, and his mouth belongs to him. Its normal for him to use it to say what he thinks to the people he lives with. As long as he is not hostile or verbally abusive, he's entitled to be somewhat tactless, repetitive and annoying. He's a child.

 

For kids who are really perseverating or who do a lot of negative self talk, it's really not just words.  And it's not something parents should shrug off.  Look, I'm the first person to say that kids' are entitled to their opinions and that everyone is entitled to an appropriate expression of a rotten day or something bad happening.  This was unfair, after all.  But this isn't being "somewhat tactless, repetitive, and annoying."  When kids get stuck like this, every time they repeat these words, they're reinforcing their negative feelings and their inability to move on.  Every time he brings up this up, he's starting it over.  Forget how it affects the rest of the family - it's destructive to himself.  Words have a lot of power over how we think about the world and saying negative ones constantly makes us more negative in general.  

[OneStepAtATime]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

I am so sorry you are having such a hard time.  I agree with others, get an evaluation through a neuropsych.  There is more happening here than a layman, even a loving mother, is going to be able to tweak out.  Get outside help from a neuropsychologist and see where that leads...before he gets older and bigger and your relationship deteriorates further.   

 

Best wishes and huge hugs.  

[Farrar]

I agree that this is a much better way to deal...  but can you conceive of a child who just repeats the initial thing over and over instead of reasonably, if somewhat grumblingly, engages?  Because some kids will do that.  They'll just say, "they were overcooked" over and over and over.  There will never be an "ok" from them in this conversation.  You're asking the child here to see outside their own perspective and most kids struggle with that.  For a stuck kid, it's even harder.  At what point do you get as worn down as the OP?  And every time you skillfully get them away from it, they'll bring it up again.  Later, when dinner is done, they'll go, "My whole day was ruined by those overcooked cookies."  They'll bring it up a week later when they have another cookie saying, "Those cookies last week weren't like this.  They were overcooked.  You overcooked them."  Yes, she needs to find ways to break this dynamic, but it's not so simple.

 

Try this...
You: do you like the cookies?
Him: they are over cooked.
You: oh, good to know. I'll put a note on my recipe. (Pause) But do you like having cookies more than you like not having cookies?
Him: duh! Of course people like cookies, but I've had better.
You: if you like having cookies, there are things you might do or say to make *me* happy about having made cookies. Right now I don't feel good about having made them.
Him: well, they aren't very good.
You: you already mentioned that. What I'm trying to say is that when I feel unhappy after I've made cookies, sometimes I take a break and don't make them again soon. Other times I feel good about making cookies, and I make them again right away. Now think about this: I do know about not over cooking them next time, so, how soon do you want next time to be?
Him: soon, I guess. Whenever you want.
You: so, do you want to know how to change my feelings and shift my idea of when I might make cookies next?
Him: ok
You: so, there's two ideas. One is to thank the person for their work, even if it didn't turn out well, but you don't say the 2nd part. You only say the thanking part. The other is to find something you do like and compliment that part, even if you don't like everything about it.
Him: but mom, that's dumb. Why do I have to do that?
You: you don't have to do it. It's just that you have the freedom to influence people and get cookies more often -- and now you know two ways how. Just use them when you want to.

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Posts like this often are better understood on the Learning Challenges forum because even though it isn't about learning, it deals with behavior that is not neurotypical.  Parenting techniques that work just great for neurotypical kids do not work the same for kids who are not because the child is unable to respond in the "expected" way.  

[bettyandbob]

I've been there done that and am still as my ds very slowly inches his way to independent adulthood. Despite his amazing intellectual talents, everything else is out of whack. 

 

He had/has multiple diagnoses. We did OT -- a few times a week for a few years. We did play therapy. We did drama therapy. Individual counseling. All helped some a different times. We did a lot of stuff I don't remember.  I'm not an expert on what therapies will fit--that's other people on this board, but you should probably look some more. I don't know if any of this will help, but here are some things I did that helped that were beyond typical therapies:

 

1. Diet: gluten free, dye free, artificial flavors free. My ds has never been diagnosed celiac, but he most likely has it (he has both genetic markers). I didn't notice a behavior change when I took artificials out of his diet, but when got food that had artificial color after not having it for a a few months, he raged. To make the diet work everyone in the family has to do it. I cleaned out the pantry and started over. 

 

2. Exercise: I require exercise. This is a kid who never would have exercised as a child. We had the rule because he had serious motor deficits--the OT was for motor skills and sensory problems. Organized fitness was cheaper than more therapy. By the time he was 12 he did Tae Kwon Do several days a week. Later we transitioned to having a personal trainer (still cheaper than physical therapy). His mood change after exercise was obvious to the rest of the family. He goes to a boxing gym now, but not often enough. Mood change is still obvious and he still doesn't notice it. I'm sure that's part of the sensory issues. 

 

I figured with a clean diet and exercise, my ds was presenting his health optimum to therapists and doctors and if he was prescribed meds we might be able to get the most we could out of them. Yes, we did meds at a couple of points. If you get to the point of considering meds you have to be careful about watching reactions. Typical ADHD treatment (stimulants) caused ds to develop OCD. He was taken off stimulants, but it was years before the OCD behavior scaled back. That's when I learned anxiety was an issue for ds too--it was a crappy way to learn. 

 

3. for a while he did regular chiropractic adjustments. They did help him feel good and he requested them. Adjustments actually helped him get over his last bit of bedwetting. I didn't expect that, but later I heard that it is a treatment for that. 

 

4. We did plan around his needs. It sounds like a pain and it was a pain to plan family life based on "how will --- respond", but the alternative was ds having a horrible outburst--so the thing we wanted to do without planning would turn out bad anyway. 

 

5. Accept that the family is not going to operate the way you thought it was going to be. This took me a long time. I have peace with it now. My dd and younger ds take short road trips with me (visiting colleges, a few days at the beach, seeing old friends). I think dd finally has good memories of "family" vacations--she didn't before. The trips we take are all things ds never wanted to do, so there's no argument about not being included. dh and ds go out to eat and see guy movies when we go. 

 

6. Make dates with your kids. Each kid gets alone time with each parent. 

 

7. summer camp. hate to say it--it was a relief to send ds away. He went with scouts a few times, He went to computer camp once. In high school he requested to attend a 6 week JROTC program--that was one of our most relaxed summers ever. If you can manage it, it's important to get that break for your other kids. When I sent dd to camp, I tried to send her on different weeks than her brother, so she'd get a longer break. 

 

I think now his biggest obstacles are anxiety, which does manifest as anger and executive function deficits, which are extreme. He now gets a long with dd most of the time. They have late night conversations about superheros and video games--that feels very good. He is far from meeting many adult milestones that one would expect at his age, but he is better than he used to be. 

 

Finally, you MUST take care of yourself. MUST. I am paying the price healthwise for not doing so during some of our most intense years (all three of my dc have different chronic medical issues). I take care of myself now, but likely I will never overcome some longterm problems developed when my dc were younger. So, you MUST eat right and you MUST exercise, and you MUST find time to visit a friend or two or work on a hobby. You take care of everyone in the family and no one is taking care of you so you MUST do it. AND I do know you are sitting there saying when and how, but please work on it. 

 

Good luck finding the mix of things that work for your ds and your family. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Anne in CA]

 I know I am late to this conversation, but I had a similar child (who is still a lot like this) and I believe Joanne was spot on. This thread reminded me of another thread where a woman was being driven nuts by the dog next door barking and did not properly discipline her child for shooting it with a BB gun and lots of people felt she was unreasonable.  Unless you are LIVING with the actual child, you just can't get it. OP, you are in one of those senarios where you can't expect people who don't have a kid like this to be sympathetic. Their responses often seem to amount to, "if you were different your kid wouldn't be like this." Whether or not that is what they mean, that is what comes across. I, myself, think that giving people candy they can't eat is silly. HOWEVER, it is your holiday, your tradition, your deal and you made a big effort to be fair. What seems right in one house doesn't seem fair in another.

 

My oldest was once threw her cell phone at me in a petty rage so hard that it left a mark on my stomach through my shirt for days. I promptly picked it up off the floor and dropped it in a pot of boiling water I was boiling for spaghetti. She told everyone at church how I had ruined her cell phone. Smart women picked up on what really happened and told me good job for not killing her, people without judgement told me what a bad mom I am and that they were "praying for me". The truth is that I am not perfect, but I did put her needs ahead of my wants CONSISTENTLY her whole childhood and teen years.

 

I get that this child is day in and day out and does not fit with your personality. The fact that your dh does not get your trouble means to me that your dh understands him. The only thing that ever worked with my oldest was to not let her bother me. When she was being negative I would deliberately focus on whatever else I was doing and have fun with that. Too bad I didn't figure this out until she had almost graduated. It took away her control, because she was seeking to re-frame our lives in her negative way and when I didn't let her do it she became more pleasant to be around.

 

You need some space from this kid or you will bust. I would go camping alone if need be, but I would get regular space from this child so that you can be as objective as possible.

 

Just last week was out 23rd wedding anniversary and she posted a note on facebook where she talked about "all our problems" and how great it was that we were still together in spite of them and how we were still working our new business even though it was not going well. That was BS, lol. She was the source of most of our problems, and we are very happy together for the most part. We have not had any more problems than most other people. Our new business is doing REALLY well for a restaurant. It is really hard to own a restaurant at all, and we have had nothing but great reviews and have hired wonderful people. We have been really blessed, actually. I just deleted her comment from my timeline and didn't acknowledge it. 

 

[Jennifer-72]

I agree that this is a much better way to deal...  but can you conceive of a child who just repeats the initial thing over and over instead of reasonably, if somewhat grumblingly, engages?  Because some kids will do that.  They'll just say, "they were overcooked" over and over and over.  There will never be an "ok" from them in this conversation.  You're asking the child here to see outside their own perspective and most kids struggle with that.  For a stuck kid, it's even harder.  At what point do you get as worn down as the OP?  And every time you skillfully get them away from it, they'll bring it up again.  Later, when dinner is done, they'll go, "My whole day was ruined by those overcooked cookies."  They'll bring it up a week later when they have another cookie saying, "Those cookies last week weren't like this.  They were overcooked.  You overcooked them."  Yes, she needs to find ways to break this dynamic, but it's not so simple.

 

This is very true.  In fact my son who does have ASD use to bring up stuff  months later because something would trigger the memory.  And even though it was terribly upsetting for him he would try to provoke the same conversation with me.  He did this because it was somewhat comforting to have the same conversation.  For him that meant it was a known outcome instead of change.

 

OP - Regardless of your son having a dx or not,  it does sound like he may benefit from some similar approaches as would be taken for a child with ASD.  My son is only 9 and we had great luck in using the book Unstuck and On Target!.  Your son might find it too young though, I think it is for ages 7-11. I did see the authors just brought out a more general book called Solving Executive Challenges that deal with the same flexible thinking Unstuck discuss http://products.brookespublishing.com/Solving-Executive-Function-Challenges-P757.aspx

 

The What To Do When You Grumble to Much book is an excellent suggestion.  Another great book is Think Good-Feel Good by Paul Stallard, it is a cognitive behaviour workbook for kids. 

[foxbridgeacademy]

One of my daughters is similar.  She would definitely not want it back but would want a replacement.  I would have him evaluated.  It sounds to me, in my unprofessional opinion, that he is on the spectrum.  If your doctor doesn't think so or assumes not, take him somewhere else.

I would have to agree with the above, he probably needs to be tested.  A friend of DD is very similar(almost word for word), she is NOT on the spectrum(says her Doctor, I think maybe a little?), instead she tested OCD with anxiety issues.  Meds have really helped as well as a huge shift in her diet.

Now I will have to some what disagree with other posters.  He is the older child, the younger child took the candy as a joke, if the younger child was able to return the candy in original near original condition then it was a silly prank and older DS would just have to deal with being "pranked". I would have a talk with younger DS about his brothers issues(privately), reminding him that he doesn't deal well and in the future he was welcome to :prank" me or DH. 

[Upward Journey]

 I know I am late to this conversation, but I had a similar child (who is still a lot like this) and I believe Joanne was spot on. This thread reminded me of another thread where a woman was being driven nuts by the dog next door barking and did not properly discipline her child for shooting it with a BB gun and lots of people felt she was unreasonable.  Unless you are LIVING with the actual child, you just can't get it. OP, you are in one of those senarios where you can't expect people who don't have a kid like this to be sympathetic. Their responses often seem to amount to, "if you were different your kid wouldn't be like this." Whether or not that is what they mean, that is what comes across. I, myself, think that giving people candy they can't eat is silly. HOWEVER, it is your holiday, your tradition, your deal and you made a big effort to be fair. What seems right in one house doesn't seem fair in another.

 

 

...OR... we were that child, and we're seeing it through his eyes.

[weddell]

My dd seemed like she was headed in this direction for a while and at the time I read this book, Freeing Your Child From Negative Thinking. It helped me think about her being "stuck" in negative thoughts and ways to break it. I think it is similar in tone to the workbooks someone mentioned above. It really does sound like he is stuck and needs some professional strategies to help break these types of thinking patterns. It's not a normal level of complaining.

http://www.amazon.com/Freeing-Your-Child-Negative-Thinking-ebook/dp/B001M5JV7U/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1399595909&sr=8-4&keywords=negative+thinking

[bolt.]

I am well out of my depth with anything beyond the nerotypical -- but it would certainly help to move beyond seeing this as "being negative about everything" and into a head-space where the child is allowed to be "that way" judgement-free, in order to start from "that place" with a helpful-minded approach, slowly replacing adversarial mindset.

 

He's not trying to do this: if he's not doing well, it's because he needs someone to come alongside with support and assistance, not because he could behave differently, but just won't.

 

It's the difference between being annoyed that he won't let things go -- vs being honestly concerned that it seems that he can't (right now) let things go.

 

The first drives you towards behaviourist approaches. The second drives you towards more advanced techniques and strategies.