Failing Saxon Algebra 1

[jetzmama]

Three years ago, we switched ds to Saxon. He has done fairly well, until he hit Algebra 1 this year.  He started out ok, but continues to get worse and worse.  His last two scores on the mixed practice were 10/30.  He is spending an hour doing the work, then we are spending another 1-2 hours reviewing all the mistakes.  

 

In February, I just had him stop proceeding with lessons. I took every test and made a tally of the chapter of every problem missed. We've gone back and laboriously reviewed those chapters to shore up the weak areas using the Saxon text and DVD's, Khan videos, and just time working problems on the white-board.   After 5 weeks of doing this, and seeming proficiency, I thought we could move on.  But now his scores are worse than ever. 

 

 Writing is his passion, but math used to be close.   I've already told him he has to do math over the summer, but I'm not sure what to use.  Saxon seems to be a colossal waste of his and our time.  Thinking about switching to TT, but not sure about it as we've never used it.    Can anyone share experience going from Saxon Algebra to TT?  Or if there is math program that tends to be better for analytical students who are also gifted in writing? (Thinking that since MUS is better for VSP learners, maybe there is one that is better for these types of strengths).  TIA!

[kiana]

I think changing is definitely a good idea. Do you have anyone that you could borrow TT from to see if he likes the style? 

[EKS]

I'd take a look at Jacobs Algebra.

[Omma]

How old is he and which Saxon textbooks has he used these past 3 years?  I am just wondering if you happened to skip over Saxon 8/7 or Saxon Alg. 1/2.  The reason I ask is because I am a bit nervous about my own son's progression into Saxon Alg. 1 this coming fall.  He just finished Saxon 8/7.  His last 6 tests had an average of 82.5, but he got a 70 on the final test and he often had more than 10 wrong on the Mixed Practice during this past year.  And it has taken us the same amount of time you are describing to do corrections.  But since he is going to be a high school freshman next fall, my dh especially is reluctant to having him do anything less than Alg. 1.  But, at the same time, we can tell that our ds has really improved in his math abilities since we switched to Saxon last year (which I know doesn't sound like much, but we can tell a difference). 

 

Also, when you say his scores are worse than ever, do you mean the Mixed Practice or the actual tests.  I have spoken to Art Reed (32 year prof. of Saxon) and he says, particularly with boys, that we shouldn't worry so much about the homework errors but rather focus in on how they do on tests, since boys put on their 'test hats' and usually try to do their best when they take tests.  He also said to tell your student they will have to go back 5 lessons if they get less than 80 on two tests in succession.  Another thing you could do is continue on but spread the lesson out over 2 days (15 probs./day).  Of course, that is only if you decided to try and continue with Saxon.

 

We will probably use Saxon Alg. 1/2 at least from now until the fall, but I am not sure if I will just have him take the tests until he gets less than 85 and start there.

 

Well, this is probably more info than you wanted, but maybe it will help someone else out there, too!

 

Blessings,

 

Brenda

[kiana]

Omma, I think testing through Algebra 1/2 is a great idea. Your ds doesn't sound like it's failing him.

 

If it takes you until Christmas to work through Algebra 1/2, you can still start Algebra 1 after Christmas and have it finished by the end of the summer. In this case, I would see absolutely no issue with just marking credit for 9th grade for Algebra 1.

[jetzmama]

Thanks for the responses.  Just looked at Jacobs.  Whew!  Guess I should have added that he works best when he can work the problems out quickly in his head, he misses more of them when we make him show his work. (Dilemma...  he (and we) need to see where the errors are, but that slows him down and confuses what's happening in his mind, thus, more errors on paper :crying:).  The sheer volume of problems is exasperating to him in Saxon, so I'm guessing all those practice problems in Jacobs will be daunting, as well. 

 

No one I know who has TT, but haven't put the request out yet, either. :) 

[jetzmama]

Omma, thanks.  That is helpful.  He started Saxon in 8/7 and did great. 1/2 was pretty good, too. It's just algebra!  :p   The comments from Art Reed are helpful.  Didn't hear of him 'til Feb or so of this year and wasn't sure about investing in his materials with such a little bit of time remaining and my other kids in MUS.  The test hat mentality sounds good, but for him, it's just another set of problems.  :( 

[Omma]

First of all, thank you so much kiana for your reply, as it confirms exactly what I was thinking I would like to try.

 

Second, I can totally understand, jetzmama, about your son wanting to do everything in his head, as it sounds just like my ds.  I have heard that we should tell our students to draw 4 quadrants on their homework papers and use each of those big spaces to write in all the steps for each problem.  To succeed in Algebra, it seems that you have to be able to logically think through and write down the steps (no matter which curriculum you choose).  What works in easier math levels no longer works with the longer, more complex algebraic equations.  I've been trying to get my ds to see this, too.  One thing that has helped him is to show him a level or two above where he is in math and show him this is what he will be working towards...see all these steps...this is your future, too, in math.  Maybe that would help your ds, too.

 

 

[Jen in NY]

IIRC, there are three sections of exercises for each lesson in Jacob's... we used to do 1 and 3... and save 2 in case dd needed extra practice. That might make it more doable.

 

ETA: EKS has the lesson breakdown right later in the thread...

 

 

a few posts down. :)

 

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[Omma]

Well, maybe if you explain to him that the tests show mastery, and they don't even ask you questions from the previous 5 lessons when you take the test.  Instead, they are evaluating what you truly learned from the lessons prior to the last 5 ones.

 

You know if can go to, Using John Saxon's Math, and also google Art Reed and then go and read his newsletters for free.  Also, he says you can freely email him and he will either write or even call you back to help you with Saxon concerns.  This was really helpful for us.

[EKS]

Thanks for the responses.  Just looked at Jacobs.  Whew!  Guess I should have added that he works best when he can work the problems out quickly in his head, he misses more of them when we make him show his work. (Dilemma...  he (and we) need to see where the errors are, but that slows him down and confuses what's happening in his mind, thus, more errors on paper :crying:).  The sheer volume of problems is exasperating to him in Saxon, so I'm guessing all those practice problems in Jacobs will be daunting, as well. 

 

No one I know who has TT, but haven't put the request out yet, either. :)

 

It's designed for the student to do the Set I (review) problems and then *either* Set II or Set III, not both unless the student needs additional practice.  Set IV is optional.  So, that cuts the number of problems essentially in half.

 

[Hunter]

My son made a lot of small errors. That was going to happen no matter what.

 

If I thought a book was getting too hard, I'd start the book over, whether it was Ancient Greek or math. I have found that more helpful than switching curricula.

 

I checked my son's answers after 10 problems and I had him correct all the ones that were wrong. Other times we checked after each and every problem; I sat with him and worked the problems myself.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Thanks for the responses.  Just looked at Jacobs.  Whew!  Guess I should have added that he works best when he can work the problems out quickly in his head, he misses more of them when we make him show his work. (Dilemma...  he (and we) need to see where the errors are, but that slows him down and confuses what's happening in his mind, thus, more errors on paper :crying:).  The sheer volume of problems is exasperating to him in Saxon, so I'm guessing all those practice problems in Jacobs will be daunting, as well. 

 

No one I know who has TT, but haven't put the request out yet, either. :)

 

My older sons did Saxon K through Algebra 1/2.  A couple of thoughts from our experience.

 

It was really important for them to do all of the problems in each lesson. Starting with the warm ups and practice problems and through all 30 problems in the mixed practice. Saxon is written as a spiral, in which the student does a bit of a concept, practices it in the mixed practice over a few days and then comes back to it.

 

However, once you are more than 30 lessons into the books, that means that there might be a concept that doesn't show up every lesson. If you are skipping lessons, you could end up going for several days without reinforcing the concept. That means the student is less prepared when it comes back again.

 

Also, the warm up problems are often designed to directly contribute to the student being ready for what is presented in the lesson. They aren't just random problems, but often reflect the arithmetic tools needed to solve the problems being introduced.

 

I also have kids who like to do things in their head. And in many cases it works great - for a while. Then it doesn't work at all. And because there is little to no work on the paper, it's impossible to say if it was a transcription error, missing a negative, doing the wrong operation, a simple error on arithmetic (carrying, borrowing, misplaced decimal, etc) or a gross misunderstanding of the problem. 

 

One of the things I tell my sons is that math is communication. They need to work out the problems in such a way that another person could come and check their work and see if they agree. The practice of drawing diagrams, working out problems and showing the work is excellent prep for when they need to do this as part of physics and other subjects. In many cases, even if they get stuck at the end, they will have shown enough conceptual  understanding to get partial credit. In college this could be the difference between passing and failing a class. It could also be the habit that lets them go to office hours or a learning center and have someone find the point at which they need assistance.

 

I can't say if you should stick with Saxon or not. I do think that not showing work and not doing all of the problem sets are an issue if you are going to stick with Saxon. Other programs are designed to have more problems than are needed. For example, Dolciani is written so that a student only needs to do odd problems, or maybe the A level or C level problems, depending on their ability and goals. Saxon doesn't have that presumption.

 

FWIW, my sons could be pretty hard headed about not wanting to show work too. However, I'm more hard headed than they. I will mark a zero on problems without work.

[bettyandbob]

Unless your ds has a learning disability related to writing, I think you should push the "show work" now and from now on. Math is going to get more complicated from this point. There's a lot of basic algebra I can do in my head. But then I forget a negative sign or I forget something else. 

 

I did have one student over 20 years ago who did calculus in his head. It really upset the math teacher -- I was a sp ed teacher at the time, I have a strong math background. He had extreme dysgraphia which affected his performance in all subject. He learned to work around the dysgraphia and advocate for himself, but he did not show his work in his high school math--through calc 2. He now has a PhD in theoretical math and teaches at the University of Michigan. He is a complete anomaly and most teachers never ever see someone who thinks and works like him. So, I do know it is possible to not show work, it is a bad idea for just about everyone to approach math that way. 

 

It is better to get the habit of showing work down now in Algebra 1, rather than fight it in Algebra 2. 

 

If your ds has fine motor issues and gets tired holding the pencil and writing, you might want to consider if a program like Mathtype would be helpful 

 

I can't recommend a specific curriculum. We used Videotext which was great for the needs of my dd, but the pacing and practice may not fit your ds. It may be helpful to go back, institute a show all work and do all problems policy. 

[jetzmama]

Great ideas and feedback!  Thank you.   We have not skipped lessons and require all 30 problems to be done each lesson. There are no dysgraphia issues. We've been fighting the 'show your work' battle since 8/7.  Though we corrected practice sets and tests in the past, I never kept track of the scores so long as they met expectations.  Since we have to keep grades now for hs, maybe making him redo the whole thing a couple things, or giving zeros is a good solution.   Leigh Bortins tells of having one of her sons repeat the entire algebra book, just as was mentioned in a comment above.  Maybe we just need to stop where we are and go back to lesson 1 (and be hard nosed about showing the work).    Not sure I have the fortitude to go through the book again!  Part of the TT appeal is the 'hand-off' so I can be encouraging mom rather than demanding teacher.  Getting harder to walk that line...   Thanks again!

[Trilliums]

Unless your ds has a learning disability related to writing, I think you should push the "show work" now and from now on. Math is going to get more complicated from this point. There's a lot of basic algebra I can do in my head. But then I forget a negative sign or I forget something else. 

 

 

:iagree:

 

DS used saxon for alg 1 and showing work, step by step, was a skill he had to develop that year.  He also did much of the work mentally and learning to document each step was not easy for him.  Him not believing it was necessary didn't help in the matter either.  Now, three years later, he can, and does, show his work and understands the value behind doing so. :hurray:

 

How is he with order of operations?  Could that be a root cause of some of the problems with showing his work?  Maybe mentally he can figure it out, but he may not actually know how to document it appropriately. 

[SailorMom]

My son is dysgraphic and has dyscalculia and I STILL have to remind him to show all of his work, lol.  We've been working on it since pre-algebra.  He absolutely prefers to try to do it all in his head...  At the beginning of this year (algebra 2), I showed him problems about half-way through the book and I think the "why" of showing his work finally made sense to him :)

He still doesn't like it, and a lot of his work is not legible, but it's more a process than anything else - and he can interpret anything I can't read, lol.

No matter what the student prefers - show all the work!!!  :)

[Sebastian (a lady)]

What about designing some kind of a generic problem solving worksheet for him to use. I'm thinking of something that would have a section for a picture/diagram, a section for identifying variables, a section for working out the problem and a box for writing the final answer.

 

You could even include a small list of the steps to check his work (ex. does the answer make sense? Units? Did you solve for what was asked for?)

 

I would probably design it such that two problems fit on each side of the paper. With graphing grid in the sections for drawing the figure and for solving the problem (grids help my kids line of their work).

 

 

ETA: Lacking this, you might check Staples' paper section for project paper. This is set up with a large unruled column and then a large ruled column. It looks like what you might use for Cornell notes. He could do diagrams on one side and then problem solving down the other.

 

[Serenade]

First of all, thank you so much kiana for your reply, as it confirms exactly what I was thinking I would like to try.

 

Second, I can totally understand, jetzmama, about your son wanting to do everything in his head, as it sounds just like my ds.  I have heard that we should tell our students to draw 4 quadrants on their homework papers and use each of those big spaces to write in all the steps for each problem.  To succeed in Algebra, it seems that you have to be able to logically think through and write down the steps (no matter which curriculum you choose).  What works in easier math levels no longer works with the longer, more complex algebraic equations.  I've been trying to get my ds to see this, too.  One thing that has helped him is to show him a level or two above where he is in math and show him this is what he will be working towards...see all these steps...this is your future, too, in math.  Maybe that would help your ds, too.

 

 

I think there are many kids who really struggle with writing out the problem.  My son, too, tries to skip writing down steps, and doing them in his head.  Or he scribbles stuff on the margins of the paper, and then erases it. ????  Why erase it, you know?  Why not just leave it on the paper by the problem.  He is so weird that way!  I've learned to compromise with him on showing his work.  I insist (or try to) that he shows the base problem or formula or set-up, etc.  Then if he skips some steps along the way, I am usually OK with it as long as he shows part of it, and the final step before getting the answer.  We battle about it a lot, and often I end up having to choose my battles.  Sometimes I am able to show him that he would have gotten a certain problem correct if he wrote down the formula and then progressed from there rather than doing it in his head.  "Oh, I was supposed to square that," he says.   And I am just shaking my head because if he had written the formula down, he probably wouldn't have forgotten to square it, and he would have gotten the problem right.  I am learning to be a taskmaster every time he gets a new problem that involves many steps -- I often just have to make him do something over or practice extra if he doesn't write out the steps.

 

A lot of the problems in the second half of Saxon Algebra get long and cumbersome -- it is a lot to write out, and I can see why kids protest, but it ends up being too much information for them to hold in their heads.

[Serenade]

:iagree:

 

DS used saxon for alg 1 and showing work, step by step, was a skill he had to develop that year.  He also did much of the work mentally and learning to document each step was not easy for him.  Him not believing it was necessary didn't help in the matter either.  Now, three years later, he can, and does, show his work and understands the value behind doing so. :hurray:

 

 

 

This is very encouraging!

[Blessed]

Omma can you elaborate on the 4 quadrant  approach to solving  math problems? sounds like an excellent idea for my daughter who neglects to show her work and help herself think through problems thoroughly  :001_smile:

 

 

[Omma]

:001_smile:

Omma can you elaborate on the 4 quadrant  approach to solving  math problems? sounds like an excellent idea for my daughter who neglects to show her work and help herself think through problems thoroughly  :001_smile:

 

Sure, although it is brilliantly simple.  Ideally, just take what I would call 'faded' graph paper (where the lines are not too dark but still distinguishable) and make perpendicular lines that split the 8 1/2 by 11" paper into 4 equal sections (front and back) and number them if you want.  However, I need to defer to you out there in hive-land who have already taken Alg. 1 with your students.  Do you think this much space is needed for working out the problems all year long, or maybe just half the year, etc.?

 

In the back of my Saxon 8/7 book, there is a Recording Form C that we have used all year that has 15 boxes on each side.  My dc have enjoyed using these this year and it has made their papers easier for me to grade.  I am considering modifying these pages for Alg. 1 by maybe using white-out on some of the lines in order to make 7 or 8 boxes on each side so that I could just hand them 2 pages instead of 1 for completing their mixed practice problems next year, depending on how much room they really need.  But you could make a master copy using whichever way works best for you and make tons of copies with easy access for your dd to grab all year as needed.  Alternatively, you could just take white unlined paper and do the above as well.  :001_smile:

 

 

 

 

[helena]

When my daughter was trying Saxon we used the Art Reed DVDs and this site as a backup:

http://www.virtualhomeschoolgroup.com/login/index.php, it breaks the problems down in a nice way.

 

In the end we decided to go back to TT. For her it's a get er done thing, she doesn't enjoy math at all. TT doesn't stress her out and she gives 100%.

[stupidusername]

You say he did great in Saxon 8/7 and well in Algebra 1/2. He did every lesson and didn't skip problems. If that's all true, he shouldn't be struggling in Algebra 1. Something doesn't add up.

 

Important question: Which edition of Algebra 1 are you using? If it "classic" Saxon (one of the books written by John Saxon)? Or is it Houghton-Mifflin "Saxon"? If the latter, throw your book in the trash and find an old classic version. The Houghton-Mifflin version is crap.

 

If you have been using classic Saxon all along, I recommend you drop back 30 chapters and take it from there. If he's still having problems, go back another 30 chapters.

 

[jetzmama]

What about designing some kind of a generic problem solving worksheet for him to use. I'm thinking of something that would have a section for a picture/diagram, a section for identifying variables, a section for working out the problem and a box for writing the final answer.

 

You could even include a small list of the steps to check his work (ex. does the answer make sense? Units? Did you solve for what was asked for?)

 

I would probably design it such that two problems fit on each side of the paper. With graphing grid in the sections for drawing the figure and for solving the problem (grids help my kids line of their work).

 

 

ETA: Lacking this, you might check Staples' paper section for project paper. This is set up with a large unruled column and then a large ruled column. It looks like what you might use for Cornell notes. He could do diagrams on one side and then problem solving down the other.

 

^ ^ ^

Brilliant!  Was just looking at the pages in the back of the answer key today and thought I should just make a notebook full of those.  Like your idea better b/c the reminders are right there.

 

[jetzmama]

You say he did great in Saxon 8/7 and well in Algebra 1/2. He did every lesson and didn't skip problems. If that's all true, he shouldn't be struggling in Algebra 1. Something doesn't add up.

 

Important question: Which edition of Algebra 1 are you using? If it "classic" Saxon (one of the books written by John Saxon)? Or is it Houghton-Mifflin "Saxon"? If the latter, throw your book in the trash and find an old classic version. The Houghton-Mifflin version is crap.

 

If you have been using classic Saxon all along, I recommend you drop back 30 chapters and take it from there. If he's still having problems, go back another 30 chapters.

 

3rd edition. Saxon Publishers.  He was making solid B's in prior books.  Been a tumultuous year in many ways... think part of it is he just doesn't care.  But he know I won't sugar coat his transcript, or let him move to Alg 2, until he's got this. Think learning he would be doing math all summer was shocking to him... though can't imagine why!   He would do much better if he could take statistics and consumer math and be done with it. 

 

[jetzmama]

Reading the Art Reed newsletter. Wow!  We've been doing it wrong all year.  Told him early on that he needed to retake any test less than a 90, yet 80 is considered mastery by Saxon!  (When I mentioned this to him, he immediately translated this as 60=B, 50=C :crying:).   Also, I have corrected daily assignment and required correction, but not graded them, though he grades them himself when he sees the scores.  No wonder he's done so poorly after doing well in the previous texts... he's probably felt defeated and unable to get to the 90 from the start.    I think we're going to stick with Saxon and go through Algebra 1 again this summer according to the parameters set out by Mr. Reed.  Headed back over there to learn more in order to 'do it right' this time!    Thanks for all your input!