Algebra based Physics with Giancoli (or maybe another text)

[Kendall]

I'm hoping by the end of typing this I will have figured out what my questions are :). 

 

I used Apologia Physics with my first and second sons.  With my 2nd son I tried to supplement with Giancoli.  That worked for awhile but we dropped down to just Apologia.  (BTW I think Apologia was plenty; my 1st is almost fnished with his EE degree and did great in all of his college physics classes.  He said that it helped that he had seen some of the topics before, but wouldn't have been necessary to even have taken physics)  

 

That said, I would like to try to just use Giancoli to teach my third son. There is a chance that I would even have him take the SAT subject test, but not likely that I will feel confident enough that I can teach an AP level class to have him sign up for the AP exam.   One problem that I had when I tried to supplement with Giancoli was not knowing how many/which problems to assign.  We spent a lot of time on some of the harder problems.  Do you know of any schedule for Giancoli that has assignments?  It could be an AP schedule(even one based on the old exams).   I would consider another text if I could spend less than 50 for solutions and text. 

 

I like physics and had 3 courses in college, but that was a long time ago. I will put time into learning/working problems so that I can teach him.  At least that is my plan, I am schooling 5 others, but no babies/toddlers like the last time through physics, so I think there is a better chance of me getting this done and not having to fall back on Apologia. I should be able to get a lot done this summer(famous last words).  He will not be able to self teach this; he's a strong student but math and math based science aren't his strongest subjects.  He has done very well self teaching Apologia Chemistry but he works the problems slowly and not super excitedly.

 

Misc info - I'll be teaching him precalc next year so we can't do a calc based.  His math skills are solid, but slow. This child will not likely be a STEM major.  

 

So maybe I am

1) looking for someone who has done this (encouragement, tips)

2) looking for chapters/assignments or guidance in making them; I have a hard time knowing what is too hard/too easy.

 

I will have lab questions after I get assignments/book/plan figured out.  I plan to go back and read all of regentrude's posts on that first though.

 

Sorry, I know this is a bit rambling.  Thanks in advance for your thoughts.  

 

 

 

[regentrude]

Have you searched for college syllabi for the text? You should be able to find examples that contain a list of assignments.

I am using Knight for algebra based physics. If you search the archives you will find the schedules of assignments I have shared with the board. The old edition is available for very little money.

[Kathy in Richmond]

Happy Giancoli user here!

 

We used an older edition of this Giancoli, purchased used for something like $5. My kids self-studied from the book, with me as tutor when needed, though that was rare. I did work through the text myself, though, and I also checked their homework problems. I didn't buy any teacher helps (used the answers in the back of the book, which were reliable), but in the past when I've checked Amazon to help friends, we've located a student solution guide and a study guide for sale, too.

For chapter quizzes, we used the practice questions available on the publisher's website.

For labs, we purchased Castle Height's Experiences in Physics manuals and lab supplies from Home Science tools. (I think that this might be out of print now? I did a search just now & came up empty.)

I found this website *extremely* helpful for pacing and for links to interesting web sites: Dolores Gendes AP B physics & honors physics. I always look for inspiring teachers when I'm planning a new course, and she's one of those people whose excitement for her subject is contagious!

 

Her AP B section includes weekly pacing guides and specific homework assignments for the 5th and 6th editions of Giancoli. In addition, she has tons of links to demos, labs, simulations, problem solving on special topics, etc. In your situation, I'd recommend picking up the 5th edition (should be very inexpensive!) & using Ms Gende's schedules and homework assignments.

The Giancoli text has three levels of graded problems, so it can be used for a range of physics courses. We studied it at the AP physics B level (using all 3 levels of problems), but didn't opt to take the AP exam, so I called it honors physics. It could also be used for regular algebra based physics by selecting an easier set of homework problems.

 

As far as pacing goes, we started in early Sept and aimed to finish mechanics by Christmas break (first 8 chapters in the older 3rd edition). It's important to really have a good grasp of kinematics, the laws of motion, energy methods, momentum, and rotational motion. So we devoted approximately two weeks per chapter, including lab work and quizzes.

After Christmas break, we picked up the pace, as it was going well at that point. So for fluids, electricity, magnetism, & the wave nature of light (chapters 10 through 24 in the 3rd edition), we spent about one week per chapter. The exception was the chapter on vibrations and waves which took two weeks.

At the end of the year, just before SAT testing, ds skimmed (ie, he read, but did minimal problem sets) the chapters on optical instruments, nuclear physics (which he remembered from chemistry), quantum theory, & special relativity.

Giancoli is aligned well with the SAT subject exam in physics. My son used Giancoli in its entirety, but my dd used it only to review for the SAT 2 physics exam. She had already taken calc-based physics mechanics and elec &magnetism, so she just needed it to learn other topics such as optics, waves, etc, for the SAT testing. It did result in SAT 2 scores of 800 for both kids.

[Kendall]

Thank you both!  I wanted to sit down this morning to look at everything, but the six children needed schooling.  I resisted the temptation that I usually have at this time of year, the temptation of planning for the next school year rather than doing the current school year :) .    This evening I will get to look at everything you shared.

 

I'm excited about the Giancoli helps.    I found the tests/assignments for Knight!  Thanks.  I did go ahead an order the Knight book for $7.  Then I can look at both.

 

 

[MarkT]

Happy Giancoli user here!

 

We used an older edition of this Giancoli, purchased used for something like $5. My kids self-studied from the book, with me as tutor when needed, though that was rare. I did work through the text myself, though, and I also checked their homework problems. I didn't buy any teacher helps (used the answers in the back of the book, which were reliable), but in the past when I've checked Amazon to help friends, we've located a student solution guide and a study guide for sale, too.

 

For chapter quizzes, we used the practice questions available on the publisher's website.

 

 

Are there any non-multiple choice questions available - maybe PDF form?

 

thanks

 

[Kathy in Richmond]

Are there any non-multiple choice questions available - maybe PDF form?

 

thanks

 

 

On the Giancoli publisher's website, if you select a chapter and choose the Practice Problems tab, you'll find problems that require numerical answers instead of multiple choice.

 

If you're looking for a source of test questions, there are more end-of-chapter problems in the Giancoli text itself than you could possibly get through in one year. Just save some for your tests, or modify old homework problems by changing the numbers.

 

For a greater challenge, try some Free Response Questions from the College Board's archive of past AP Physics B exams. They even come with scoring rubrics and full solutions.

 

That Delores Gendes website has a wealth of links to sites with solved problems, too. For instance, here she links to the online study guides for several popular textbooks. The Walker text has several problems with full solutions listed under "Chapter Review" for each topic. It's pretty easy to align different texts, since introductory physics books all cover pretty much the same topics.

 

[Twigs]

Here is 655 page test bank with answers. It is multiple choice.

[Kendall]

Regentrude,

 

I've received the College Physics book by Knight 1st edition.  The Schedule A you posted lists problems from some other sources I think CQ, MC, and WB do you have a suggestion about how to alter this if I only have the book?  Should I just pick some problems from the book?

 

Also, did you do Schedule A and B for a full year high school course?

 

I have some more questions about AP Physics and my musings over the direction to go which I will post in a new thread.

 

Thanks,

Kendall 

[regentrude]

Regentrude,

 

I've received the College Physics book by Knight 1st edition.  The Schedule A you posted lists problems from some other sources I think CQ, MC, and WB do you have a suggestion about how to alter this if I only have the book?  Should I just pick some problems from the book?

 

If you mean the schedule I posted for my college physics course:

CQ refers to "Conceptual Questions" at the end of the chapter in the textbook.

MC refers to " Multiple Choice Questions" at the end of the chapter in the textbook.

 

WB refers to the workbook which I can highly recommend; I use the workbook extensively in my classes, as it has very good, though provoking, conceptual problems.

 

 

 

Also, did you do Schedule A and B for a full year high school course?

 

If you call "schedule A" and "B" the two schedules I posted for the two semester courses that constitute the full sequence:

yes, my kids took the two semester courses in their 9th grade of high school.

[Kendall]

Great!  I'm looking at the workbooks.  It looks like they are sold in 2 volumes; is this correct?  Are there any answers in them?  Thank you so much for the help!  

[regentrude]

Great!  I'm looking at the workbooks.  It looks like they are sold in 2 volumes; is this correct?  Are there any answers in them?  Thank you so much for the help!  

 

There are two separate volumes of workbooks, going with the two volumes of  the textbook, respectively.

The answers are NOT in the workbook.

I recommend getting the 2nd edition of the workbook (works fine with 1st edition of text; changes in text are mostly cosmetic but changes in WB were an actual improvement)

 

[Cosmos]

Have you searched for college syllabi for the text? You should be able to find examples that contain a list of assignments.

I am using Knight for algebra based physics. If you search the archives you will find the schedules of assignments I have shared with the board. The old edition is available for very little money.

 

Just in case anyone else goes looking, I am linking to regentrude's post with links to her Knight schedule. At least I think it's the right one!

[lewelma]

We are using Knight with Regentrude's schedule, but are taking two 30-weeks years to cover the material (the other weeks we are using for exam prep and study).  At this speed, he needs to work 5 hours per week to keep up with the schedule.  So to complete the work in a year, I am guessing that it would take closer to 10 hours per week depending on the student.

 

Regentrude, just wondering why you skipped out chapter 11 on Using Energy and Ch 12 on Thermal Properties of Matter, but kept in Ch 13 on Fluids.  Are Ch 11 and 12 typically covered in a chemistry class?  Also, thanks so much for posting all your tests and answers.  They have been very motivating and effective in helping both of us keep up with the schedule.

 

Ruth in NZ

[regentrude]

Regentrude, just wondering why you skipped out chapter 11 on Using Energy and Ch 12 on Thermal Properties of Matter, but kept in Ch 13 on Fluids.  Are Ch 11 and 12 typically covered in a chemistry class? .

 

Yes, thermo is usually covered in chemistry, whereas fluid dynamics is not covered elsewhere.

 

The target audience of the text and my class are biology majors and premeds. For those fields, fluid mechanics is rather important, and they have to take plenty of chemistry.

 

[Kendall]

I've now read Chapter 1 and The first two sections of Chapter 2. I have the Knight first edition.  So far I think I like the actual text, both layout and explanations, of Knight better than Giancoli but I haven't compared them side by side yet. 

 

I did the assigned problems for Chapter 1.  Looking ahead at the first 3 chapters it doesn't seem as though very many problems are scheduled.  Is this because you are doing a lot in class?  

 

I am not really wanting to buy/use the workbook because I won't have answers;I'm not confident enough to work problems without the answers.  Can we learn this material using just the odd problems?  I also have the Giancoli book I could use for more problems; my limited memory from what little we used the book was that it had good problems.   I've also found some online problems at 

 

http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~probs/mech/circ.html

 

Thank you!

Kendall 

 

 

[regentrude]

.  Looking ahead at the first 3 chapters it doesn't seem as though very many problems are scheduled.  Is this because you are doing a lot in class?  

 

I am not sure what you would consider "very many".

The number of problems scheduled is the amount needed for an average student to develop mastery of the subject at the level of the college physics text. My students are typically assigned 7-10 problems per week which translates into 2-4 hours of homework per week, an appropriate amount for a 3 credit hour course and sufficient to meet the learning objective.

For each of the problems from chapter 2 and 3, the student will have to complete a fully labeled diagram, containing symbols for all quantities used in the solution of the problem, will have to derive symbolic answers beginning from starting equations, and will only then compute a numerical answer.

 

FWIW, the physics and engineering majors are assigned 8 problems of their text per week as well because that is the amount they can be realistically expected to complete (it will take 4-6 hours) and the amount sufficient to build mastery.

 

In  a typical week, I usually spend two classes summarizing the main points of the reading and working one or two examples - this is something a student could do by himself with the textbook. The third weekly class we work in groups and discuss conceptual questions from the workbook.

 

 

I am not really wanting to buy/use the workbook because I won't have answers;I'm not confident enough to work problems without the answers.  Can we learn this material using just the odd problems?  I also have the Giancoli book I could use for more problems; my limited memory from what little we used the book was that it had good problems.

 

You can certainly use only odd problems. I do not, however, consider the final answers in the back of the book to be very helpful, because obtaining the right number is no guarantee that the student has been following the correct procedure and has been doing the correct physical thinking.

 

All the college physics texts have "good" problems; there are very few variations.

 

One way to obtain worked out solutions is to purchase a membership at one of the cheating websites like Chegg which will give you access to the actual solutions, not just numerical answers.

[lewelma]

Regentrude's selection is excellent -- a nice combination of easy and hard on a variety of topics.  However, we do *more* in these ways:

 

1) I typically work out all the in-text problems before reading the solutions. 

2) I do about 3 additional problems besides what Regentrude has assigned because I feel like I haven't mastered the material.  My son, however, rarely does additional problems. So clearly it is dependent on the student's aptitude. :tongue_smilie:  

3) We also do the *entire* workbook because it is hard and we rarely get the problems without some thinking, which makes us think that we should do it!  The work book takes us as long as the Regentrude's assigned problems.  However, if you did not want to buy the workbook, you could use the 'conceptual questions' at the end of each chapter as they are quite similar.

4) Also, when we study for the test, we chose one problem from each section (at the back of the book) and they are all different from Regentrude's choices.  So at least an additional 6 questions from each chapter.

 

I always got the impression that the assigned problems were the minimum we should do, and if we didn't understand or were getting them wrong, then it was our responsibility as students to do more work.

 

I definitely use the solutions guide to check our work after every single problem.  There is a big difference between a solution and a numeric answer.

 

This approach has worked as both my son and I have gotten 95% to 100% on all the tests so far.

 

Ruth in NZ

[regentrude]

 

3) We also do the *entire* workbook because it is hard and we rarely get the problems without some thinking, which makes us think that we should do it!  The work book takes us as long as the Regentrude's assigned problems.  However, if you did not want to buy the workbook, you could use the 'conceptual questions' at the end of the book as they are quite similar.

 

We do about 2/3 of the workbook in class and discuss the problems - that's why there are not many WB problems assigned with the homework.

Oh, and thanks for mentioning what I completely forgot: the conceptual problems are indeed very similar (some are identical) to the WB - there just aren't as many.

 

 

 

4) Also, when we study for the test, we chose one problem from each section (at the back of the book) and they are all different from Regentrude's choices.  So at least an additional 6 questions from each chapter.

 

Good that you mention this. For test prep, my students receive a separate  test prep homework assignment, and the ones who are taking it seriously also work two old exams that I make available.

 

I could only wish my students were as thorough as you are, lewelma ;-) You'd be a dream student.

[butterfly113]

 

One way to obtain worked out solutions is to purchase a membership at one of the cheating websites like Chegg which will give you access to the actual solutions, not just numerical answers.

 

In regards to the Knight text, where are the solutions available?

 

Also, if the Knight text were completed along with your assignments in the syllabus, what would the course be called on a high school transcript? Forgive me as I'm still learning the correct terms and differences between courses.  Physics A? AB? BC? Can it be titled AP Physics?

[lewelma]

In regards to the Knight text, where are the solutions available?

 

 

I contacted the publisher, provided my homeschool number, and they sent me the teacher's CD. 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I contacted the publisher, provided my homeschool number, and they sent me the teacher's CD. 

 

Had you purchased the textbook new from the publisher?

 

I bought one copy of the textbook new and also bought the Instructor DVD after a bit of a go round to demonstrate that I was a legitimate homeschooler (different parts of the company weren't talking to each other).

 

I think that my approach was a bit of overkill.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

In regards to the Knight text, where are the solutions available?

 

Also, if the Knight text were completed along with your assignments in the syllabus, what would the course be called on a high school transcript? Forgive me as I'm still learning the correct terms and differences between courses.  Physics A? AB? BC? Can it be titled AP Physics?

 

You can only call a course AP if the syllabus has been approved by College Board.  This is certainly possible (I had a couple government courses audited this year).

 

One work around is to call the course something like Physics with AP test and list the scores.

[regentrude]

In regards to the Knight text, where are the solutions available?

 

Also, if the Knight text were completed along with your assignments in the syllabus, what would the course be called on a high school transcript? Forgive me as I'm still learning the correct terms and differences between courses.  Physics A? AB? BC? Can it be titled AP Physics?

 

"Physics".

You can only call a course "AP" if you submit your syllabus to the College Board and get it approved.

 

 

The solutions would, as I mentioned in the post you quoted, be available on Chegg. You can also try to jump through hoops to obtain instructor resources from the publisher. This is one of the rare instances when I actually recommend Chegg.

[lewelma]

Had you purchased the textbook new from the publisher?

 

I bought one copy of the textbook new and also bought the Instructor DVD after a bit of a go round to demonstrate that I was a legitimate homeschooler (different parts of the company weren't talking to each other).

 

I think that my approach was a bit of overkill.

 

Yes, I bought it new specifically so that I could provide proof of purchase and get the Instructor DVD which has the solutions to the workbook and textbook. The solutions are excellent and very much worth the trouble. 

 

I completely agree that different parts of the company have different policies.  Very frustrating. 

 

Sounds like Chegg is a good option if you can't get the Instructor's DVD.

[Kendall]

Thank you both for the additional thoughts on teaching and on using problems beyond assigned homework for teaching and review.  I’m beginning to see how to go about this.   I had been thinking about it more like a math course. 

 

I received my homeschool registration confirmation from the state, and am going to make an attempt to contact the publisher for instructor materials.   Should I contact the higher ed side or the high school side of the company?  Any hints about who to ask for?   I’m in the US.  If this doesn't work I'll look into Chegg.  

 

 

[lewelma]

Can't help you there.  I'm in NZ and the policies here are different.

 

Good Luck!

[butterfly113]

 

The solutions would, as I mentioned in the post you quoted, be available on Chegg. You can also try to jump through hoops to obtain instructor resources from the publisher. This is one of the rare instances when I actually recommend Chegg.

Sorry about that, was getting confused between the Giancoli text and Knight text. Thanks for the clarity and suggestions.

[abidnginhim]

Would someone help me? My dd is using Knight this year with regentrude's schedule. How exactly do I find the solutions? I'm not familiar with how to use Chegg. Can I find solutions for both the text and the workbooks on Chegg? 

[regentrude]

Would someone help me? My dd is using Knight this year with regentrude's schedule. How exactly do I find the solutions? I'm not familiar with how to use Chegg. Can I find solutions for both the text and the workbooks on Chegg? 

 

I do not think the WB solutions are there.

you need to purchase a subscription to Chegg. Then you can simply select the textbook and view all solutions.

[Kendall]

I sent you a PM.

 

[abidnginhim]

Where are the WB solutions?

[Kendall]

Workbook solutions.  There are two workbooks that go with the book and they have been very helpful.  Regentrude could explain them better, but they really focus on understanding the physics rather than working the multistep quantitative problems.  

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

For Giancoli, I like this site: https://www.giancolianswers.com/

It goes through all problems, and provide a video solution. Very handy when your student gets stuck. It's like having your own tutor.  for 50$ a year, I think it's pretty affordable.

[abidnginhim]

Workbook solutions.  There are two workbooks that go with the book and they have been very helpful.  Regentrude could explain them better, but they really focus on understanding the physics rather than working the multistep quantitative problems.  

 

So, an answer key is not needed for the workbooks?

[Kendall]

  It is a separate key than the one for the text.   I need one!

[abidnginhim]

  It is a separate key than the one for the text.   I need one!

 Do you know where to get one?

[Kendall]

I got them from Pearson.

[abidnginhim]

Is this what you bought? Student solutions manuals?

 

http://www.pearsonschool.com/index.cfm?locator=PS1lMk&PMDBSOLUTIONID=6724&PMDBSITEID=2781&PMDBCATEGORYID=811&PMDBSUBSOLUTIONID=&PMDBSUBJECTAREAID=&PMDBSUBCATEGORYID=23496&PMDbProgramId=129801&elementType=programComponents

 

 

I'm sorry but I'm still confused. It appears that I can't purchase the solutions manuals from this website. Only the workbook??

And, I bought my workbooks on Amazon and they are not the same edition. Have they changed?

 

 

[Kendall]

No, I did not buy the student solutions manual.  I have heard that it doesn't have all of the answers and it doesn't have any of the answers to the workbook.  I do not have the 3rd edition workbooks.  I bought the 2nd edition used on amazon.  I don't think you can buy solutions to the workbooks, but if you prove to them that you are a homeschool parent you can download them.  

[abidnginhim]

I thought the solutions manuals I linked to were for the workbooks, not the textbook. 

 

So, you cannot buy solutions to the workbooks but they are available for download (for a price?) on the Pearson website if I can prove to them that I am homeschooling? 

 

[Kendall]

I am pretty sure that they are for the text and that they are only selected answers at that, regentrude might know better.  I can see how you would think that with them listed right under the workbooks.

 

And it didn't cost anything once I proved that I was a homeschool.  

[MarkT]

Is this what you bought? Student solutions manuals?

 

http://www.pearsonschool.com/index.cfm?locator=PS1lMk&PMDBSOLUTIONID=6724&PMDBSITEID=2781&PMDBCATEGORYID=811&PMDBSUBSOLUTIONID=&PMDBSUBJECTAREAID=&PMDBSUBCATEGORYID=23496&PMDbProgramId=129801&elementType=programComponents

 

 

Looks like eBooks may be the only choice in the future.  At least they have a 6 year option. 

 

[Kendall]

I don't see the workbook answers at ebooks.  Do you have a direct link?  I only see the student solutions which are for the text I think.