Well Trained Mind and secular resources?

[Walking-Iris]

This may have been discussed before, my apologies.

 

But is anyone ever just completely frustrated at The Well Trained Mind's (the actual book) lack of secular resources? I love the book, I love the idea, but just when I start to really think "I'll just do it this way", and I start researching some of the recommended resources, I get completely disappointed at how one sided they are.

 

I really do enjoy using Peace Hill products (OPGTR, WWE, FLL, SOTW), and for the most part they do an excellent job of being secular. I will give props to them for not being pushy.

 

But then I find that most of the other products recommended in WTM are completely unusable for my family (common trade books and math aside).

 

I'm also usually completely frustrated at how sneaky some of the companies seem to be. It looks great, and then you start reading more, looking at samples and suddenly you find a "biography of Eve" or some other nonsense. 

 

It would be nice, really nice, if just once...once....a company was straight forward and up front honest about their worldview without having to be suddenly sidelined by it. (Except the curriculum providers who are very up front about it).

 

I would also *love* to see a less biased revision/edition of The Well Trained Mind one day. So I can stop marking things out in my book!!

 

Classical Education DOES NOT have to always be filtered through a Christian lens. 

 

I usually don't care, but I'm getting weary of it lately!

 

:rant:

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Chrysalis Academy]

I feel your pain.  Not just WTM recs, but lots of others too.  I often think something sounds often then click on it and realize . . . . oh, this is not going to work for us.

 

Actually it's one reason i find the forum so very valuable - I couldn't homeschool just using WTM's suggestions, but I can come here and usually find suggestions for something secular that will work.

[Crimson Wife]

When the first edition of TWTM was written back in '99, there really wasn't a lot of HS-friendly secular resources. Today there are a lot more, but aside from PHP products, most of them haven't made it into the current edition of TWTM. We purchase most of our curricula with the kids' charter stipend and we cannot use that for anything religious. Additionally, as a Catholic, I have a general policy of avoiding Protestant publishers.

 

I don't find it all that difficult to find secular materials compatible with TWTM as a general framework.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

*sigh* I was happily using a resource and recommending it heartily until some red flags started waving. I was fine until the red flags started chasing me down.... :willy_nilly:

 

Philosophy for Kids is not entirely secular. We will finish it, but I am going to sell the next book in the series without using it. (I had bought both books at the same time, believing them to be secular.)

[Jackie]

Woodland Mist - can you expand on that for me, please? I had P4K filed away in my brain as a resource for later and had thought it was secular, though I hadn't looked into it much yet.

 

ETA: oh, yes, I get very frustrated when I find awesome-looking resources and then realize they completely won't work for us because of the religious content. It's hard enough to find materials that work well for DD!

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Question 26 in Philosophy for Kids:

"If the universe came from the Big Bang, where did the Big Bang come from?"

 

As we did the lesson, I felt much was left to be desired. When I read the "Teaching Tips" for the lesson I realized why.

 

Taken from page 165:

 

          (As an aside, it is a constant source of wonder to the author how many sixth, seventh, and eighth graders are avowed atheists, or at least claim they are. Be prepared to deal with individuals who will vigorously deny the existence of God!)

 

That's just one instance; there are others.

[Walking-Iris]

Oh for the most part, yes I can find secular replacements. But I've often had the experience of finding something that looked great and after a closer scrutiny it just seemed full of bias and agenda.

 

I'm also feeling a bit put out that wtm gives lip service to theology being important (which I agree 100 percent). And yet there are no comparative religions resources or really any resource not filtered through a western Christian worldview for theology.

 

I guess theology is only important if you study the correct one. Just feeling beyond annoyed at the brief religion sections in the book atm. Which I probably should have just ignored.

 

Also I've just recently started looking at the selected bibliography. Sigh.

[quark]

Woodland Mist - can you expand on that for me, please? I had P4K filed away in my brain as a resource for later and had thought it was secular, though I hadn't looked into it much yet.

 

ETA: oh, yes, I get very frustrated when I find awesome-looking resources and then realize they completely won't work for us because of the religious content. It's hard enough to find materials that work well for DD!

 

I shelved our P4K study due to some increasingly uncomfortable feelings about the book. The Examined Life is a little meatier but doesn't fit exactly what I am looking for either. I am not looking for set answers, I am looking for a resource that drives curiosity even further. I see P4K and TEL as being too ready to answer questions. I might seek such a resource for another subject but it's a little difficult to put my finger on the kind of resource I'm seeking for philosophy because I think I will only know it when I find it. :p

 

I am waiting for my copy of Raising Freethinkers to arrive. It's supposed to suggest books and activities for thinking/ questioning for secular families. I'll update if I find it helpful.

 

[Crimson Wife]

I'm also feeling a bit put out that wtm gives lip service to theology being important (which I agree 100 percent). And yet there are no comparative religions resources or really any resource not filtered through a western Christian worldview for theology.

Comparative religion is a whole can of worms that if I were an author writing for a diverse audience I wouldn't touch either. I don't think it is a subject that can be taught objectively. Even if the author really tries hard to be fair and balanced, his/her worldview is going to bias the treatment of religion (whether in favor of a particular faith or in favor of secularism).

[CrunchyGirl]

I agree I would be lost without online resources to help me filter resources. One thing that helped me was to identify the posters on here who were committed to secular resources, had similar goals for their kids' education, and bonus points if their kids had similar learning styles to mine. 

 

But I do agree, "secular" is rarely truly secular. A lot of on the fly editing is necessary and as they get older a lot of discussions will need to happen. There is hope that as homeschooling becomes more diverse there will be more options. But at this point, it's so heavily dominated by religious families, I'd imagine it's hard for curriculum publishers to justify actual secular resources for what is ultimately a very small market. I think a true shift in the market is probably a long ways out.

 

ETA: Starting in about 4th grade it appears it's easier to find curriculum from overseas where it's drastically less likely to be religiously oriented. Worth looking at anyway.

[Chrysalis Academy]

I shelved our P4K study due to some increasingly uncomfortable feelings about the book. The Examined Life is a little meatier but doesn't fit exactly what I am looking for either. I am not looking for set answers, I am looking for a resource that drives curiosity even further. I see P4K and TEL as being too ready to answer questions. I might seek such a resource for another subject but it's a little difficult to put my finger on the kind of resource I'm seeking for philosophy because I think I will only know it when I find it. :p

 

I am waiting for my copy of Raising Freethinkers to arrive. It's supposed to suggest books and activities for thinking/ questioning for secular families. I'll update if I find it helpful.

 

 

I have this book, and it's great - it has all kinds of secular resources.  Not standard curricula, but all kinds of great stuff.

[SeaConquest]

I agree I would be lost without online resources to help me filter resources. One thing that helped me was to identify the posters on here who were committed to secular resources, had similar goals for their kids' education, and bonus points if their kids had similar learning styles to mine.

 

 

Exactly this, and I have to thank many of the posters in this thread for generously sharing their wisdom and experience. You have no idea how helpful you've been for me.

 

(We are Jewish, but use secular materials.)

[Lori D.]

Not trying to minimize your feelings of frustration, but… I think this is one of those "eye of the beholder" perceptions, as I've also seen numerous posts in the past complaining on the other side -- "Why is TWTM so secular? Why doesn't it list Christian suggestions?" :D

 

My experience: NO curriculum ever matches my believes, my expectations, and my needs exactly. I found that it helped to accept that early in the game and to let go of my expectation that someone will write textbooks and curricula exactly as I would want, saving me the trouble. ;) Letting go of expectations frees me to focus my energies on adapting as needed as we go, and to try and see the different worldviews/perspectives as an opportunity for discussion, rather than a personal annoyance. Many of our most fruitful learning experiences came from being presented with a viewpoint other than our own and taking the time to talk about it.

 

Of course, some days it is easier to do this than others… ;)

 

So if this a JAWM thread, then:  :grouphug:  and sympathy! Passing some cyber chocolate along, in case it helps! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[Walking-Iris]

Yes Lori. I was hoping the rant smilie would be enough to get some "cyber chocolate" passed my way.

 

 

I'll have my moment of annoyance and continue trucking along more than likely.

 

And I've obviously spent too much time exploring and reading various websites and book reviews to last a cold Sunday.

[Lori D.]

Okay, a complete off-topic comment, BUT… Is your avatar photo of you, or taken by you? I just love that B&W shot, and think it is one of the lovelier avatars on this board! I always take a moment to admire it whenever I see one of your posts in a thread I'm reading. :)

[73349]

Well, I kind of look at TWTM like The Joy of Cooking. I'm not going to want everything in there--some of it's too much work and a lot of it won't suit my tastes--but it's a good starting point, and I like to have it on hand, though I would not want it to be my only resource.

Start making annotated lists of what you're using and liking, and you may be able to publish your own book on it in few years! I might need a copy of it myself. Meanwhile, you might look at and/or add to a specifically secular review site like http://www.secularhomeschool.com/content/675-secular-homeschool-curriculum-reviews/

[Kerileanne99]

I shelved our P4K study due to some increasingly uncomfortable feelings about the book. The Examined Life is a little meatier but doesn't fit exactly what I am looking for either. I am not looking for set answers, I am looking for a resource that drives curiosity even further. I see P4K and TEL as being too ready to answer questions. I might seek such a resource for another subject but it's a little difficult to put my finger on the kind of resource I'm seeking for philosophy because I think I will only know it when I find it. :p

 

I am waiting for my copy of Raising Freethinkers to arrive. It's supposed to suggest books and activities for thinking/ questioning for secular families. I'll update if I find it helpful.

 

I have Raising FreeThinkers on Kindle and constantly refer to it for links and ideas. It would be truly exceptional if it included more extensive lists of curricula, but it has given me more insight into resources and curricula that I believed to be either secular or more neutral.

I have no problems with curricula that is marketed with a Christian or other religious world view. It is almost fraud (or worse!) in my humble opinion, to market something as neutral or secular when it is not. I can work around something that has very upfront views. It is the insidious asides and sarcastic, scoffing little pseudoscientific commentary that drive me nuts and cause me to shelve a program after spending too much money on it. Raising Freethinkers has some nice ideas and information on how to avoid and combat that sort of thing.

[quark]

Thanks to everyone for the feedback on Raising Freethinkers! :thumbup:

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

We've used WTM in a secular setting for 7 years, so it's do-able, but I would agree it takes more work that just getting a boxed curriculum pointed at a particular worldview.  Everything we've used to date is listed on the left side of our school blog (linked below), and it was that kind of word-of-mount (word of post?) that lead us to a lot of the publishers we've stuck with, like Saxon and MCP.   The Rainbow Resources catalog is still a great source, as is Homeschool Buyers Co-Op -- you just have to dig a bit.

[Mom-ninja.]

Thanks for the heads up about P4K. Irritating. My 7th grader is an atheist and would not be pleased with the patronizing comment the author made about children who are atheists. :glare: 

 

Now I know to look for it and I'll be prepared.

[Mom-ninja.]

Apparently, I need to reread Raising Freethinkers. I disagreed a bit with some of his viewpoints.

[Crimson Wife]

I have no problems with curricula that is marketed with a Christian or other religious world view. It is almost fraud (or worse!) in my humble opinion, to market something as neutral or secular when it is not.

Neutral and secular are totally different things IMHO.

 

I get frustrated when secular resources treat things that are not objective facts as if they are. And I say this as someone who believes in evolution and an age of the universe in the billions as that is the conclusion that the best scientific evidence we have available at the current time supports.

[nansk]

I found the resources recommended on these two groups very helpful:

 

WellTrainedMindSecular

SecularCM

[lewelma]

My dh uses P4K with my younger, and we are as secular as they come.  DH just takes the attitude - there were a lot of religious philosophers throughout time, and this is the way they think and the type of questions they ask.  I don't think he even knew there were teaching notes in the back. 

 

So very usable here.

 

Ruth in NZ

[SeaConquest]

I found the resources recommended on these two groups very helpful:

 

WellTrainedMindSecular

SecularCM

It looks like the posting has dropped off substantially in both groups. Did people migrate to FB?

[nansk]

It looks like the posting has dropped off substantially in both groups. Did people migrate to FB?

I think they may have migrated to these forums. :-)

But even then, I know that the list owners are active on both groups. So if you were to ask a specific question, like, say, the secular equivalent of a WTM-recc, I am sure you will get a good response.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

My dh uses P4K with my younger, and we are as secular as they come.  DH just takes the attitude - there were a lot of religious philosophers throughout time, and this is the way they think and the type of questions they ask.  I don't think he even knew there were teaching notes in the back. 

 

So very usable here.

 

Ruth in NZ

 

Oh, absolutely! We take this attitude here as well! That is one reason I was so excited about the book. My dd knows Bible stories, and I even quote the Bible sometimes! (I then try to point out how something can be good advice even if you don't agree with everything that is said in the whole book! And trust me, there is much for me to disagree with! We are a secular family.)

 

For us, it's not a matter of trying to avoid religious philosophers. The treatment of the topics at hand seems uneven. One reason I checked the teacher's notes was that I was not impressed with the answer to the Big Bang question given by the author--not the philosopher. It was becoming more and more obvious as the book progressed that it was written from a Christian perspective. To me there is a difference between reading about religious philosophers from a secular viewpoint as opposed to a religious one.

 

Also, the answers are too canned, neat, and tidy. I sometimes feel like I am taking an online quiz. There will be a question and a list of possible answers for you to agree or disagree with. Depending on what you answer you supposedly either agree or disagree with the philosopher. This doesn't make sense to us.  I don't want her to view philosophy through such a narrow lens.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

I shelved our P4K study due to some increasingly uncomfortable feelings about the book. The Examined Life is a little meatier but doesn't fit exactly what I am looking for either. I am not looking for set answers, I am looking for a resource that drives curiosity even further. I see P4K and TEL as being too ready to answer questions. I might seek such a resource for another subject but it's a little difficult to put my finger on the kind of resource I'm seeking for philosophy because I think I will only know it when I find it. :p

 

I am waiting for my copy of Raising Freethinkers to arrive. It's supposed to suggest books and activities for thinking/ questioning for secular families. I'll update if I find it helpful.

 

 

Regarding the bolded---me too! I've given P4K much thought since yesterday. I've decided not to finish it after all. There are too many books waiting on the shelves.  As my daughter starts more outside classes, I'm viewing our resources with increasingly critical eyes.

 

I didn't finish Raising Freethinkers. I can't remember why. It's on the shelf, so maybe I should pull it out again to remind myself. (Or to finish it if I just set it aside during a busy spell. I honestly can't remember why I stopped reading. Maybe I started a book it recommended and then ended up on rabbit trails....hmmm...I honestly can't remember. Now I'm curious!)

[Chrysalis Academy]

Regarding the bolded---me too! I've given P4K much thought since yesterday. I've decided not to finish it after all. There are too many books waiting on the shelves.  As my daughter starts more outside classes, I'm viewing our resources with increasingly critical eyes.

 

I didn't finish Raising Freethinkers. I can't remember why. It's on the shelf, so maybe I should pull it out again to remind myself. (Or to finish it if I just set it aside during a busy spell. I honestly can't remember why I stopped reading. Maybe I started a book it recommended and then ended up on rabbit trails....hmmm...I honestly can't remember. Now I'm curious!)

 

Same here! This thread has inspired me to pull it back out.  that, and actually cleaning my shelves, so I could find it . . . 

[Kerileanne99]

Regarding the bolded---me too! I've given P4K much thought since yesterday. I've decided not to finish it after all. There are too many books waiting on the shelves. As my daughter starts more outside classes, I'm viewing our resources with increasingly critical eyes.

 

I didn't finish Raising Freethinkers. I can't remember why. It's on the shelf, so maybe I should pull it out again to remind myself. (Or to finish it if I just set it aside during a busy spell. I honestly can't remember why I stopped reading. Maybe I started a book it recommended and then ended up on rabbit trails....hmmm...I honestly can't remember. Now I'm curious!)

Maybe the same rabbit trail I followed, lol. I started Raising Freethinkers, veered off on Parenting Beyond Belief and other books by the same author, read the Secular Bible...and eventually ended up finally finishing RF some six months later😄

[Walking-Iris]

Okay, a complete off-topic comment, BUT… Is your avatar photo of you, or taken by you? I just love that B&W shot, and think it is one of the lovelier avatars on this board! I always take a moment to admire it whenever I see one of your posts in a thread I'm reading. :)

 

No it's a screen shot from this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fiv-rKUM0nk I wish I was that gorgeous and had all the time in the world to walk aimlessly around a rainy street looking thoughtful.

 

I'm a lot less mysterious looking. "Exceptionally ordinary" as Luna Lovegood would say.

 

I've thought about changing it to an actual photo, but it is pretty isn't it? So I'll leave it. Privacy on a public forum and all that. 

 

And I've never heard of Raising Freethinkers...and now i'm curious.

 

I have thought about p4K, but now I don't know. 

 

I studied psychology and comparative religion in college, so I feel confident addressing these issues with my kids. I think it's why I get frustrated with what's available (or not available) for kids in this area. 

[Walking-Iris]

Maybe the same rabbit trail I followed, lol. I started Raising Freethinkers, veered off on Parenting Beyond Belief and other books by the same author, read the Secular Bible...and eventually ended up finally finishing RF some six months later😄

 

More books I haven't heard of!

 

Do I dare go to Amazon? I'll check the inter library loan first!

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Maybe the same rabbit trail I followed, lol. I started Raising Freethinkers, veered off on Parenting Beyond Belief and other books by the same author, read the Secular Bible...and eventually ended up finally finishing RF some six months later😄

 

Could be! lol

I located both books and noticed I had marked sections/resources in both of them all the way through. So, I have either read both of them, skimmed them, or at least flipped through or looked up info in both. It feels so strange to not remember! It's obviously been a few years! I wonder why I don't refer to them more. . . hmmm. . . It was so bizarre to see all the pages I had marked and to not remember marking them or reading them!!

[Guest]

Sadly, much of the secular materials are aimed at public schools. Very little seems to exist that is up to WTM standards for the upper levels. That is what frustrates me. Especially science and history. Secular/neutral, full, doable at home science is darn near impossible to find as you move up the educational ladder. And history that is not boring. High school especially. I am not a make my own course type person. I am not going to coordinate 8 resources and write disscussions and find vids to go with. I don't have the time or the inclination. I feel tired and overwhelmed just thiniking about it. Co-ops and outsourcing are not options for many people due to distance, lack of inclusive groups, or funds.

 

My feeling is the first homeschools were religious, for the majority so the market and what was developed is religious. So I think we need to volunteers to help write those upper level courses for PHP that we all want/need. :)

[quark]

Could be! lol

I located both books and noticed I had marked sections/resources in both of them all the way through. So, I have either read both of them, skimmed them, or at least flipped through or looked up info in both. It feels so strange to not remember! It's obviously been a few years! I wonder why I don't refer to them more. . . hmmm. . . It was so bizarre to see all the pages I had marked and to not remember marking them or reading them!!

 

You are not alone! :) I wish I had better memory.

 

Due to our background, we are able to discuss many of the major religions because we've lived with people of those religions or know friends and family who left one and accepted another faith and so on. I try not to neglect enriching kiddo's world in this way.

 

My feelings about P4K is not so much about the book being religious in flavor or even the teaching notes at the back. I guess I'm used to having high hopes then stumbling upon perplexing comments about beliefs, getting disgusted over the comments, and then falling back into the trap of hoping the next resource will be secular lol. Like how one realizes X is not the science resource you are looking for, P4K definitely isn't the philosophy resource I am looking for. Sad in way because we started off having some fun with the earlier chapters and DS enjoyed them before we both realized that we didn't like having questions prematurely answered all the time. It's very possible that we could have used it differently but I don't have the energy atm to figure that out. The search continues...

 

I scored Doubt: A History at the library sale for $0.50 and we have The Pig That Wants to Be Eaten after Lori D. recommended it some time ago. The latter might not be age appropriate for the younger crowd and the former might be a challenging read for me but I want to try to read and understand it. (OT - I often don't know what I don't know till one of you recommends something lol, so lots of thanks to you guys for the ideas you freely share!).

[Woodland Mist Academy]

dp

[Woodland Mist Academy]

 

I scored Doubt: A History at the library sale for $0.50 and we have The Pig That Wants to Be Eaten after Lori D. recommended it some time ago. The latter might not be age appropriate for the younger crowd and the former might be a challenging read for me but I want to try to read and understand it. (OT - I often don't know what I don't know till one of you recommends something lol, so lots of thanks to you guys for the ideas you freely share!).

 

 

We are reading through Doubt: A History slowly. I was just thinking today that perhaps we should spend more time with it rather than feeling the need to add in something easier along with it. Hmm......

[MistiDelaney]

My husband works with our almost 11 year old, so I am taking this at his work, but Jack (my son) says that P4K would be ok, but "it's lame becaise he never actually supports any of his arguments".

 

I cracked up.  They hadn't mentioned the religious bias, but I am sure they have noticed.  I wish I had known before I spent the money, but we just use religious bias as another discussion point.

 

Question 26 in Philosophy for Kids:

"If the universe came from the Big Bang, where did the Big Bang come from?"

 

As we did the lesson, I felt much was left to be desired. When I read the "Teaching Tips" for the lesson I realized why.

 

Taken from page 165:

 

          (As an aside, it is a constant source of wonder to the author how many sixth, seventh, and eighth graders are avowed atheists, or at least claim they are. Be prepared to deal with individuals who will vigorously deny the existence of God!)

 

That's just one instance; there are others.

 

[redsquirrel]

This thread makes me feel like an old lady, lol. I've only got an 8th grader and I feel like there are more and better secular options all the time.

 

You could have knocked me over with a feather when I saw that the new writing program by Classical Academic Press seems to be secular. At least at the first lower levels people are saying it is secular. I use Song School Latin by the same company and it is NOT secular, by any stretch of the imagination. I edit on the fly and skip quite a lot with that book, So, if their newest product is secular, then that tells me that SWB and PHP have made their point, that there is a market for excellent secular classical homeschooling products. But, I am happy that I am comfortable with WWE and WWS, because I am half expecting that CAP won't keep it secular. I have nothing to base that on, BTW. If I was considering committing to the program I would prob write to them and ask what their plan is on that front.

 

There is good secular science at the elementary level (RSO, Mr Q, following the suggestions in TWTM, off the top of my head) it is in the middle grades that things get sticky. I have fallen back on middle school texts for the most part and it has gone very well. Kolbe Academy is a catholic program, but it sells secular science with text books and a lesson plan. The only thing you need to figure out is experiments. They seem a bit fuzzy on the whole 'hands on' thing. TOPS science is totally hands on and totally secular. Again, if you follow the suggestions in TWTM you can do a good middle grades science progression. I have always sort of grafted TWTM suggestions onto whatever science we use.

 

For history, again, if you follow the suggests approach in TWTM it can be totally secular. It isn't 'open and go' like maybe SOTW, but it is very good. There is also Pandia Press' History Odyssey if you want it all ready to go. They even give away a large sample (try before you buy) so you can live with it for a bit and see if it clicks.

 

I think for me the biggest challenge came with the switch over from grammar stage to logic. All those nice open and go programs stopped and I had to work a lot more.

[mamaraby]

I use Song School Latin by the same company and it is NOT secular, by any stretch of the imagination. I edit on the fly and skip quite a lot with that book,

Can you tell me more about how the non-secular stuff pops up in SSL?

 

I agree with HO and the early grades assessment. I have my minor issues with some of PHP's stuff, but I'm thankful it's minor. I am not looking forward to leaving grammar stage.

[redsquirrel]

 It is things like the vocabulay "I praise" and stuff like that. There is a weekly latin phrase and it might be something like "Ora et labora" which means 'pray and work', one of the songs uses the line "oro when I talk to God", "prex' which means "prayer" is a vocabulary word, lots of visuals such as a Christmas tree to signify December, a Christmas chapter in SSL1.

 

I feel like overall SSL1 had a more religious feel than SSL2, but neither is secular.

[momma2three]

I knew I was in for a rough start with Song School Latin when the first lesson's "derivative river" section (where they show how Latin has morphed into words in English, French and Spanish) was about discipli turning into "disciples."  My DD was totally confused... I'm sure she'd never heard the word, and it was obviously something she was supposed to know.  LOL.  But it actually hasn't been so bad.  We're only on Lesson 10, but there hasn't been anything else so far.

 

For philosophy, has anyone thought about using Sophie's World?  I admit that I could never get through it, but I think it's pretty much a full introduction to philosophy. 

[mamaraby]

*sigh* we used Song school Spanish this year and it was totally secular near as I can tell (we're at lesson 19?) so that's disappointing to hear about SSL. The Christmas tree I don't care about, but the rest would not be a good match for us. You just saved me some money for next year.

[seastar]

Raising Free Thinkers is on my to-read list. I also like the idea of using Sophie's World - I really love that book and I reread it every few years (when I have forgotten everything in it) I also loved The Pig Who Wants to be Eaten and had never considered using it for home ed so thanks for the tip.

 

I haven't used it personally but I've heard some great things about the Little Box of Big Questions www.amazon.com/The-Little-Questions-Philosophical-Conversations/dp/1909207179 I must confess that I am a little biased though as the author is my doctorate supervisor - I'm fairly certain that it's secular. Am I right in thinking that material from the UK is more likely to be secular?

 

[sunnyday]

I've requested Sophie's World and Raising Freethinkers from the library, and I am pondering the philosophy offerings from RFWP. "30 Ways to Bring Philosophy into Every Classroom" sounds pretty neat, with the first section about philosophical questions (Truth, Nature of Mankind, Logic, Beauty, etc.) and the second having an appendix about logical fallacies and an appendix summarizing the thinking of 39 different philosophers. "Philosophy for Young Thinkers" unfortunately doesn't even appear in the RFWP catalog I got, and Rachel from RFWP keeps saying the program is being revised, so I am hesitant to try it.

[momma2three]

*sigh* we used Song school Spanish this year and it was totally secular near as I can tell (we're at lesson 19?) so that's disappointing to hear about SSL. The Christmas tree I don't care about, but the rest would not be a good match for us. You just saved me some money for next year.

 

Honestly, I'm only at Lesson 10 but I haven't seen anything yet that isn't secular, except the "disciples" part in the first section.  There isn't any preaching or Bible stories or anything... so far, at least.  I've been happy with it, and DD loves it.

[redsquirrel]

No, there are no bible stories or preaching in SSL, just bits of christian imagery and vocabulary throughout. It is def written from a christian normative word view. I would say that it is more than SOTW but much, much less than Rod and Staff. 

 

Some of their products do seem to be secular. I have been told that Art of Argument is secular or mostly secular (Cathy Duffy says non-Christians might find some topics 'provocative') but the remaining books in the series are not secular. I think Latin For Children has some Christian content. I use Lively Latin starting in fourth grade and that is totally secular. I have been using SSL more as a place holder Latin program to introduce the idea of Latin as a subject until he got old enough for Lively Latin.

[momma2three]

Isn't Art of Argument the one that has you debate abortion?  I've heard that's definitely not secular, though it claims to be.

[redsquirrel]

Isn't Art of Argument the one that has you debate abortion?  I've heard that's definitely not secular, though it claims to be.

 

I think they took that out a few years ago.

 

[momma2three]

Oh okay, my bad.  I only know what I read on here.