Dyslexia? Dysgraphia?

[KSinNS]

Hi, 

 

I'm not looking for a diagnosis, just advice, since this is something I know little about. 

 

Little back story: I took my kids out of school 18 months ago because my oldest, who has mild autism was miserable in school. I took my second out (T-dd 7) mainly to be fair, but I was also a bit worried about her reading. Our schools here are very "whole language" and while she had an A in LA out of primary (kindergarten), she could not recognize any sight words, and had no phonetic strategies (she'd memorized the books). I don't believe her teacher had noticed (25 kids in the class, many with high needs, and she absolutely adored T who is a sweet and helpful child). She also could print some of her letters, most of them backwards, and in completely illogical invented spellings. Like not even close. 

 

Anyway, I had a friend teach me the WRTR system which is OG based, and when we were still struggling after 6 months, her mother, a very experienced literacy teacher, helped me through our problems. T finally broke through about 2-3 months ago, and is now reading quite well, and I relaxed. Right now, she's reading fiction at a pretty high level like it's going out of style (like Ramona books level). She skips and guesses some, and has some phonetic strategies, which she applies inconsistently. I'm not sure if she's memorized sight words, but she's reading somehow and with pleasure. 

 

Her writing however, remains atrocious. I'd read not to let kids write the words wrong (which made perfect sense to me), so I've reduced her output. I spent most of last year fixing her letter formation, so she rarely reverses now. We've worked hard on spelling and writing (mainly copybook, phonetics practice, etc.) and I hover to ensure she's writing correctly. However, when she writes something without me hovering (like at brownies) I'm inevitably shocked at how little she actually can write. For example, on her last brownies work sheet, she reversed all the Js. She spelled "and" and "a" and "not" correctly, and nothing else. Many of her spellings were completely illogical...she spelled polite "kulet" and don't "dot". closer-meat balls was "met bols" Word spacing is always a problem-she runs them together. Not all her writing was on the line, and she still mixes caps with lower case (despite endless practice). 

 

So here are my questions. I know she's little, so does this sound normal or abnormal to you? If abnormal, would dyslexia or dysgraphia or both make sense (or are they the same thing manifesting in different ways)? We're thinking about testing. However, testing here is nearly $2000, and I'm not sure how helpful it would be, since I suspect I need to continue working on her spelling/writing/reading with an intensive OG type program. I'm pretty aware of her other challenges. She has a short attention span, but at home, we can work with that by working in short bursts and taking lots of breaks. She understands math, but can't remember her math facts, so we're working on that. Sometimes she mixes up the places of numbers when adding hundreds, but overall she's not really having math problems. She's got great oral language skills, and good interpersonal skills. No behaviour problems. She's really a very easy kid.

 

Anyway, sorry for the long ramble. Any and all advice would be welcome.

[PeterPan]

The easiest thing would be to get her eyes checked to make sure there's not an actual physical cause behind it.  For some kids, there will be.  COVD is where you find a developmental optometrist.  They can do a regular exam but *screen* for the developmental stuff if you ask.  OR they can do a full developmental vision exam on top of that.  There's then vision therapy (VT) available if she does have a developmental vision problem.  

 

Our COVD doc also ran screenings to see if she needed to refer off for OT and did the screening tools for EF (executive function) issues and spectrum.  Your ped can run EF and spectrum screenings too, obviously.  

 

Is she doing any sculpting?  The Davis technique has them sculpt and develop a 3d sense of the letter or word to right the images in their mind.  My dd ended up not getting a dyslexia label and did have some reversals as a young child.  She spent an INSANE amount of time sculpting and making things from modeling clay.  She particularly liked Sculpey and got hooked on it through an art class.  It's wonderful to work with and affordable if you have a michaels or hobby lobby to use the 40% coupon.  

 

Oh, I'm not saying it's not dyslexia.  You asked for less expensive places to start or for more options, and there you go.  

[Tiramisu]

My dd is the same age as the OP's and sounds a bit similar. She reads well and has great communication skills, but her writing is very, very poor. She's different in that was an early reader and doesn't have much problem with math facts or spelling, so I will not be doing anything like an OG program. Like the OP, we are doing low output on writing via WWE, in addition to some writing with math (don't ask about her number formation!) and spelling on a white board.

 

I just found an OT to consult about the handwriting, which may prove helpful, because our previous OT place did not impress me. If insurance would cover it, though, I might go back and try again. The OP can think about seeing an OT for the writing. They will do an eval and insurance may cover the therapy if there are issues like muscle weakness.

 

My 13 yo needs vision therapy and we need to put our resources into that for now, but I think once we take care of our 13 yo and have her in high school next year, things will ease up and I will get my 7 yo an evaluation by a developmental optometrist. I feel like I see something very subtle in her eye control that may be worth getting checked out.

 

In the meanwhile, I plan to start working on things like supplements and metronome to try to increase her attention span and EF, because those are issues for us.

[Kim in Appalachia]

I have a son who has both issues, but we've never done a fromal evaluation.  He is 11, soon to to be 12, and still has the same issues that you mentioned.  His words run together, he can't tell when to use caps or lower case, punctuation is almost impossible.  I used to a WRTR based program with him for years, but now we are using R&S spelling and Easy Grammar as well as Daily Grams.  

 

So I would say, no what you're describing isn't normal, but probably does show that she has some issues.  

 

My approach has been to keep working at it but try not to frustrate my son.  We do a lot of spelling on the white board (which engages gross motor instead of fine motor skills).  I keep his actual writing down to a sentence or two a day, focusing on details.  He just copies what I write.  We take the sentence exercises in Daily Grams, he tells me the answer, I write it, and then he copies it.  

 

We are using Writing with Skill for writing, but he does the work on the computer and I work with him on each edit.

 

Anyway, all this is to say, don't get discouraged.  And if you can't afford testing, I would put it off.  You can tell she has an issue, just keep working with her.  Be patient and try not to put too much pressure on her.  Let her progress at her own rate.  

 

Testing is expensive, and unless you live in a state that will cover the results (like pay for an OT), it will not be extra helpful at this time.  It can be good when she's older and has to do testing (like the ACT), because then the evaluation can get you extra time.  But, at least in our state, evalutations are only good for 3 years, and it's expensive to keep redoing it every 3 years.  Worse for me, my state doesn't have a "code" for dyslexia so unless my son is way behind in reading I might not get much out of a formal evalution (I have been able to consult with someone in charge of Special Ed locally, and with the counselor at our umbrella school, which has been helpful). 

[Kim in Appalachia]

My dd is the same age as the OP's and sounds a bit similar. She reads well and has great communication skills, but her writing is very, very poor. She's different in that was an early reader and doesn't have much problem with math facts or spelling, so I will not be doing anything like an OG program. Like the OP, we are doing low output on writing via WWE, in addition to some writing with math (don't ask about her number formation!) and spelling on a white board.

 

I just found an OT to consult about the handwriting, which may prove helpful, because our previous OT place did not impress me. If insurance would cover it, though, I might go back and try again. The OP can think about seeing an OT for the writing. They will do an eval and insurance may cover the therapy if there are issues like muscle weakness.

 

My 13 yo needs vision therapy and we need to put our resources into that for now, but I think once we take care of our 13 yo and have her in high school next year, things will ease up and I will get my 7 yo an evaluation by a developmental optometrist. I feel like I see something very subtle in her eye control that may be worth getting checked out.

 

In the meanwhile, I plan to start working on things like supplements and metronome to try to increase her attention span and EF, because those are issues for us.

 

Our insurance doens't cover it, so it didn't occur to me that others might.  Yes, if your insurance would cover some OT, then it could be worth having an evaluation done.

[PeterPan]

nt

[Lecka]

A book to check out for dyslexia and reading is Overcoming Dyslexia by Sally Shaywitz. 

 

There are other books that are really worthwhile. 

 

OT has helped my older son's handwriting, to a point.  He is better at writing on the baseline, he has fewer reversals.  He is about at a point where his handwriting may not improve a lot more, and he does need some scribing.  I am hoping he will be typing in a couple of years.  He is in 3rd grade, and he is exiting OT in about two months.  He has proper letter and number formation now, but it is still difficult for him.  He still makes mistakes. 

 

His reading is going a lot better.  He also has trouble with recalling math facts.  Right now he is in multiplication, and he uses a "personal math book" with one page for each set of math facts.  Then he has the skip-counting of that number.  He does well that way, and it is giving him practice in a good way.  He finally is doing better with his addition facts, but subtraction facts are still a work in progress. 

 

I think she does sound similar to my son. 

 

I think if you try to read more about it -- that is a good thing to do right now.  You can find more information about whether or not to get an eval.  My son has not had one -- he has had speech and OT evals and he has had speech therapy and OT.  He has had a vision eval also -- everything from that overlapped with OT in his case.  We have not had the full eval yet, though.  I am satisfied without it, at this point.

 

Two books by Lousia Moats and Susan Hall are in my public library -- one is Parenting a Struggling Reader, one is Straight Talk about Reading.  I thought they had good info about whether or not to get an eval. 

 

Then The Mislabeled Child is good.  And Dyslexic Advantage.  Those are a good starting place I think. 

 

[OneStepAtATime]

By the way, you say she can read well.  Do you mean silently?  Many 2e kids with dyslexia can decode enough when reading silently to understand the material they are reading.  But the way they are decoding is frequently inefficient and will trip them up when they are reading out loud.  

 

I agree, read up as much as you can.  There have been some good suggestions.  The main thing is to find out what the real issues are, but until you have more background knowledge you won't know whether anyone doing assessments actually has a clue about what they are doing (many don't).  Out of time right now, but I will try to post links later.

 

Just for an overall better perspective of Dyslexia, I agree with Lecka, read The Dyslexic Advantage by Brock and Fernette Eide.  For more specific info Overcoming Dyslexia is also pretty helpful.  Read Homeschooling Your Struggling Learner by Kathy Kuhl and How to Homeschool Your Learning Abled Child by Sandra Cook (posts on this board) for more general info on homeschooling kids that need some extra support.

 

I highly recommend reading old posts on this board, too.  There is a ton of info here and a lot of detailed responses from some terrific parents going through similar issues....

 

Barton Reading and Spelling site has an area that discusses dyslexia.  Free access and you don't need to buy anything.  That would give you some quick information.  Also, the International Dyslexia Association has info and I think some links regarding dysgraphia and obviously dyslexia.

 

I pulled both of my kids out, too, one about two years ago and the other 18 months ago.  Best wishes....

[KSinNS]

Thanks so much. I'll be doing some reading, and I'll keep going through the past posts! I really appreciate all your suggestions and help.

[Lots of boys]

Hi, I do think the concerns you have listed sound like it could be dysgraphia (now referred to as a written expression learning disability). My ds (almost 10) was just diagnosed with this as well as suspected dyslexia. He actually would have been given a full dyslexia diagnosis last year under the old DSM but the new one doesn't accout for difference in I.Q. verses preformance. I believe my son is a true stealth dyslexic. He can read at grade level but it is always hard for him. His reading out loud is painful for him. His decoding skills are rough too. He has all the other tell tale other symptoms (reversals and generally directionally impaired in all aspects of his life - he subtracts in the wrong direction a lot, he mixes up letters in a word, he uses capitals inconsistently and within a word (so he might spell his name with two or three capitals within the word), spells at a first grade level, despite 4 years of punctuation work he never includes any in his written work, his letter are poorly formed, float above and below the line, run into each other so it is impossible to see where any word begins and ends etc.)

 

I know evals are painfully expensive but I found they gave me so much valuable information. I assumed my son was struggling with a learning disability, but what i didn't expect was how many amazing high level skills he had that his learning disability were masking. For example, my son is awesome at math reasoning - tested at the high school level. However, his computation of basic math facts is really a struggle (because he mixes up signs, lines things up improperly etc.)  so we never really got to see him shine in math. Now that we know, we can accomodate his struggles (work on facts, use multiplication charts, etc.) and his amazing abilities in math emerge.

 

Good luck with whatever you decide.

 

 

[wapiti]

Hi, I do think the concerns you have listed sound like it could be dysgraphia (now referred to as a written expression learning disability). My ds (almost 10) was just diagnosed with this as well as suspected dyslexia. 

 

If you don't mind, could you tell us what specifically your psych based the diagnosis on for the DSM disorder of written expression?  Tests, etc.?  Was there an OT eval in addition, or anything like that?  The actual basis for the diagnosis, besides symptoms, is something that remains unclear to me (my ds will probably undergo a testing update with the psych later this year; last time I asked, the psych was a bit vague)

[Lots of boys]

Hi, from what I can tell from the report and from her conversatons with us after the testing, they now have to fall below a certain percentile in one or more areas of the writting subtests on an achievement test to qualify for a written expresison learning disability. I think before the latest edition of the DSM, the actual percentage was factored in, but so was the difference between I.Q. and achivement. So for example, my ds was in the 96% and 91% for the two main parts of the I.Q. testing (Verbal and perceptual reasoning). His achievement scores for all of the reading subtests were down in the 20 - 40% - so very low compared to his I.q. That gap, along with her observaions and our feeback, had her give us a probable diagnosis of dyslexia. She basically said, he is dyslexic and you need to remediate and accomodate like he is dyslexic, but he didn't technically qualify for that diagnosis under the new DSM because his scores were not low enough.

 

However, his written subtests on the achievement tests were all over the map with the lowest ones being 5% and another being around 19% (for spelling and writting fluency I think). These scores were low enough for her to give him a definitive diagnosis of Specific Learning Disability - Written Expression. I am not sure what the cut off is - maybe in the "teens".

 

She was clear in our follow up that his large gaps in I.Q. verses performance would be problematic and frustrating for him.

 

 

[merry gardens]

Neurological irregularities can run in families but be expressed differently in different people. Autism, giftedness, dyslexia and dysgraphia can be present in the family--and more than one can be displayed in the same individual.

 

I'd be concerned enough to address the situation with appropriate materials and strategies for someone with dyslexia and dysgraphia.

[KSinNS]

Thanks, this is all really helpful! We have a strong family hx of autism (not just our kid, several of our blood relatives though all are aspie/HFA like our son). We do keep a close eye on the younger ones, and so far everyone else is pretty NT. There's also a strong family hx of ADD and dyslexia. I suspect we'd be seeing peds about ADD in the older 3 (inattentive subtype) if they were still in school. Fortunately, in the home environment, we're able to manage their attention behaviourally, and we'll look at formal assessment when/if it starts holding them back. The third is really too young to start talking about that anyway. 

 

From a reading standpoint, she learned to read silently about 1 month ago, when she could read enough to read novels (Ramona, The All of a kind family), which she has been desperate to do for several years! If she reads out loud to me (which she does because she loves to share the story) she'll skip and guess, and sometimes apply her phonetic rules, but she gets the sense of the story. She's so excited to read that she's read 9 books in the last month, so needless to say, her reading has really improved but the start was slow and worrisome. 

 

Merry gardens gets to the crux of our concerns. I've been doing OG type programs for 2 years, and I'm seeing huge improvements, but I'm having trouble operationalizing TWRTR approach for her spelling and writing. So I'm wondering, whether or not she truly has an LD, should we save the money from testing to put towards a program like Barton that would address the things she struggles with (identifying short vowels, correcting her consonant errors, etc) and hopefully get her writing going the same direction as her reading. Fortunately, we have some resources, but with 5 kids, every penny helps. Our insurance would only cover a small portion of testing.

 

Oh, and school testing is not an option here. The laws are different in Canada, and most schools are funded for 1-2 tests/year so only a few kids ever get NP testing and they have to be a lot worse than Miss. The wait time to see a psychologist in a school is over 2 years. Also, when you HS you lose those supports, minimal as they are. For example, my oldest, who had sig language problems, had less than 6 months of SLP in 3 years of PS, and that in a group with kids with autism, but completely different language problems. Given that was all the support he was getting (and an EPA for gym class because the noise drove him nuts), oh and a yoga class, we didn't feel like we were losing much to pull him out. 

 

Thanks again all!

[Lots of boys]

Thanks, this is all really helpful! We have a strong family hx of autism (not just our kid, several of our blood relatives though all are aspie/HFA like our son). We do keep a close eye on the younger ones, and so far everyone else is pretty NT. There's also a strong family hx of ADD and dyslexia. I suspect we'd be seeing peds about ADD in the older 3 (inattentive subtype) if they were still in school. Fortunately, in the home environment, we're able to manage their attention behaviourally, and we'll look at formal assessment when/if it starts holding them back. The third is really too young to start talking about that anyway.

 

From a reading standpoint, she learned to read silently about 1 month ago, when she could read enough to read novels (Ramona, The All of a kind family), which she has been desperate to do for several years! If she reads out loud to me (which she does because she loves to share the story) she'll skip and guess, and sometimes apply her phonetic rules, but she gets the sense of the story. She's so excited to read that she's read 9 books in the last month, so needless to say, her reading has really improved but the start was slow and worrisome.

 

Merry gardens gets to the crux of our concerns. I've been doing OG type programs for 2 years, and I'm seeing huge improvements, but I'm having trouble operationalizing TWRTR approach for her spelling and writing. So I'm wondering, whether or not she truly has an LD, should we save the money from testing to put towards a program like Barton that would address the things she struggles with (identifying short vowels, correcting her consonant errors, etc) and hopefully get her writing going the same direction as her reading. Fortunately, we have some resources, but with 5 kids, every penny helps. Our insurance would only cover a small portion of testing.

 

Oh, and school testing is not an option here. The laws are different in Canada, and most schools are funded for 1-2 tests/year so only a few kids ever get NP testing and they have to be a lot worse than Miss. The wait time to see a psychologist in a school is over 2 years. Also, when you HS you lose those supports, minimal as they are. For example, my oldest, who had sig language problems, had less than 6 months of SLP in 3 years of PS, and that in a group with kids with autism, but completely different language problems. Given that was all the support he was getting (and an EPA for gym class because the noise drove him nuts), oh and a yoga class, we didn't feel like we were losing much to pull him out.

 

Thanks again all!

Hi, I just wanted to say I too am in Canada and can completely understand the frustration over testing. We paid well over $2500 for our testing - ouch!

 

My youngest has ASD and has had a lot of SLP intervention since he was very young. When he was nearing school entry age, I checked with the local school to see how speech therapy would work there is we sent him (we keep all our kids home but I was just checking on the he therapy out of curiosity). They said it would be at least a three year wait! WHAT! He has apraxia of speech and three years with no therapy would be devastating. Anyway, we thanked them and left and are paying for it privately (also really expensive).

 

Ugh!

[KSinNS]

Well by like I mean it's terrible that your son couldn't get speech through the school, but you have my sympathy! 

[nerdybird]

My oldest has some serious coordination issues. His printing is god-awful, mish-mash of letters at all sizes and placements. I decided to start teaching him cursive on a whim last year. He does much better with cursive, although it takes him an extreme amount of focus to write in it.

 

I have heard of cursive first programs working for some kids who struggle with printing. Maybe that could help your DD?

 

Other things that worked for us:

• Sensory writing. Writing in sand with fingers and chopsticks, fingerpainting, using sidewalk chalks to write on the driveway, using bath tub crayons to write on the shower walls, and writing on dry erase boards. I picked up a stack of primary lined dry erase boards at the Dollar Tree last year and they have seriously come in handy.
• Manipulative writing. I would write the letter of the day or a short word on a piece of cardboard and would have my DS organize bright colored beads, dried pastas, dried beans, decorative pom poms, or cotton balls on top of the letter(s).
• Building letters, connecting words. My kids love Legos, Lincoln Logs, K'Nex and Tinkertoys. I would have them build letters and connect them to make words. DS1 also uses pipe cleaners to form letters and words in cursive.
• Play-dough, clay modeling. Others suggested this above. DS1 was never very fond of this, but DD and DS2 both like sculpting letters.
• Use cards to supplement verbal spelling. You can purchase several sets of alphabet flashcards or make your own using a sharpie and index cards. Or you can use scrabble pieces if your kids are good with small things. Have your child arrange the letters to spell a word that you say out loud. Ask them to explain their choices after they are done. This will give you an idea of where your child is with phonics. Do they recognize phonetic sounds? How often? Which sounds are tricky? Are they getting the first and last letters correct?
• Don't be afraid to do verbal spelling, narrations, orations, etc instead of written assignments. Don't insist on your child writing everything. Focus on reading and phonics first, everything else will fall into place later. Let your child work through their weaknesses and find good auditory resources or kinetic resources to fill in the blanks.

My DD is 7 and isn't the best reader. She just isn't a visual person and really doesn't like sitting still. Sometimes mistakes happen because a child is bored, or overstimulated. Other times, it just takes time for language skills to develop. DD routinely reverses her letters, as does DS2. I don't freak out when it happens with either, but I do try and remind her that she needs to take her time. Often, she rushes through writing assignments because she doesn't like doing them. I also keep a letter strip on the wall in the school room at child's eye level. Sometimes my kids will walk over to the letter strips and trace the outlines with their fingers or a dry erase marker to remind themselves of how to write a letter.

 

Personally, I'd give her six months-year and if she is still reversing letters, spelling carelessly and struggling with reading and writing, I'd shell out for testing.

[OneStepAtATime]

With handwriting, I agree with nerdybird that cursive might help. It has helped my DS and he actually enjoys it more.  We do a lot on a lined dry erase board then a little on paper with pencil until he is comfortable with the letters.  Otherwise it can actually get exhausting and painful if we start with paper and pencil.

 

As for whether you should switch to a program like Barton instead of using limited resources for evaluations, well, ideally you would want evaluations to determine if something like Barton is even needed. Also, if there are other underlying undiagnosed issues she might not progress that well in this program, depending on what those issues are.  It is a pretty intense program and takes time for most people to complete, so if it wasn't something you really needed, the time invested might be better spent elsewhere....  That being said, Barton can be used with NT kids, too,  and replaces all language arts through Level 4 so you wouldn't need to invest in any additional language arts  programs for quite a while.  And it really did help my DD with reversals and spelling, etc.  DS was helped, too, but he has other issues that seem to be slowing him down a bit now that we are past the first three levels.

 

Have you administered the Barton student screening to see if your kids could use it?  It is free, doesn't take very long and is easy to administer.  You would need to take the tutor screening test first, but that is also free and easy to administer to yourself.  Go to tutors first, then the student section, I believe.  If any of you is having trouble with those, then you would at least know that Barton might not be a good fit until other issues were addressed.

 

http://www.bartonreading.com/

[PeterPan]

• Sensory writing. Writing in sand with fingers and chopsticks, fingerpainting, using sidewalk chalks to write on the driveway, using bath tub crayons to write on the shower walls, and writing on dry erase boards. I picked up a stack of primary lined dry erase boards at the Dollar Tree last year and they have seriously come in handy.
• Manipulative writing. I would write the letter of the day or a short word on a piece of cardboard and would have my DS organize bright colored beads, dried pastas, dried beans, decorative pom poms, or cotton balls on top of the letter(s).
• Building letters, connecting words. My kids love Legos, Lincoln Logs, K'Nex and Tinkertoys. I would have them build letters and connect them to make words. DS1 also uses pipe cleaners to form letters and words in cursive.
• Play-dough, clay modeling. Others suggested this above. DS1 was never very fond of this, but DD and DS2 both like sculpting letters.
• Use cards to supplement verbal spelling. You can purchase several sets of alphabet flashcards or make your own using a sharpie and index cards. Or you can use scrabble pieces if your kids are good with small things. Have your child arrange the letters to spell a word that you say out loud. Ask them to explain their choices after they are done. This will give you an idea of where your child is with phonics. Do they recognize phonetic sounds? How often? Which sounds are tricky? Are they getting the first and last letters correct?
• Don't be afraid to do verbal spelling, narrations, orations, etc instead of written assignments. Don't insist on your child writing everything. Focus on reading and phonics first, everything else will fall into place later. Let your child work through their weaknesses and find good auditory resources or kinetic resources to fill in the blanks.

 

That just became a sticky on my computer!!!   :hurray: 

[Heathermomster]

My DS was diagnosed as a 2E with dyslexia, dyscalculia, and dysgraphia on his 8th birthday.  We knew of the dyslexia but didn't know of the other issues until hiring the np.  Knowing his specific learning issues helped us to understand DS better and make specific adjustments to his teaching.  We've paid for evaluations twice now.

 

I've always wondered whether a program like WRTR, which I understood to be Gillingham based, was as appropriate as something like Barton, Wilson, or Slingerland.  My son does not learn by taking notes.  For him, no mental memory peg is created by the act of writing.  Nor did the play doh letters and the minds eye exercises promoted by Davis make an impact with him.  He was taught to read and spell through the Wilson Reading Program.  He started Wilson is 2nd grade.  Compared to his dyslexic peers at our homeschool co-op, the results of early intervention with DS have been dramatic.  I smile and cry when I look back at his creative writing exercises from 2nd grade.

 

He types almost everything and learned in the 5th grade.  We quit spelling as an exercise in 6th grade, and the last time I tested him in spelling he measured to about a 7th grade level.  For handwriting, he practices with Getty-Dubay Italics and uses a Twist n' Write Penagain.    

 

OP, nothing about what you are describing with your child sounds normal to me.  I recommend that your child receive an OT evaluation.  The OT can look at the handwriting, posture, and perform some simple balance exercises to determine any issues.  I would probably switch to a program like Barton, unless you are fully confident and experienced with full O-G methodologies.  I would separate the reading and handwriting instruction.  With reading, use letter tiles and the white board.  For handwriting, sand paper letters may help and try out shorter pencils and pencil grips.  Absolutely scribe for her, set money aside for future testing, and use audio books.  Maybe consider more project based assignments such as drawn pictures, dioramas, and sculpted/sewn characters for science, history, and literature.

 

As a result of my son's learning issues, I have been challenged to provide a more rounded and fuller education than I doubt would have been provided had he been nt.  The entire family has benefited.

 

 

 

[PeterPan]

My DS was diagnosed as a 2E with dyslexia, dyscalculia, and dysgraphia on his 8th birthday.  We knew of the dyslexia but didn't know of the other issues until hiring the np.  Knowing his specific learning issues helped us to understand DS better and make specific adjustments to his teaching.  We've paid for evaluations twice now.

 

I've always wondered whether a program like WRTR, which I understood to be Gillingham based, was as appropriate as something like Barton, Wilson, or Slingerland.  My son does not learn by taking notes.  For him, no mental memory peg is created by the act of writing.  Nor did the play doh letters and the minds eye exercises promoted by Davis make an impact with him.  

That's not rocket science. :D His brain is putting so much effort into the motor control, there's nothing left to put into learning.  That's what our psych told us about dd.  I think doing the playdoh could turn out to be terrific for my ds, but that's because he's a kinesthetic learner.  I always thought kinesthetic meant add manipulatives, but now I realize it means he actually has to DO it to learn it.  I don't know how far this will go, but for now I'm finding he has to DO 6 to learn 6, etc.  Crazy.

 

So yes, my dd has been like that.  I write everything because then my vision kicks in and I own it.  Doesn't work for her.  

 

As far as WRTR, here's the problem.  We used SWR, and my dd did learn to read with it, yes.  However she couldn't SOUND OUT ANYTHING.  Some of these programs like SWR, WRTR, and whatnot are more condensed, not really meant for remediation, and work on the *assumption* that certain things will click and occur.  They work on assumptions like that the dc can hear the individual sounds in a word (my ds can't), etc. etc.  Now an experienced teacher can break the program down and work more slowly, but she doesn't know what she doesn't know.  So I agree that it's possible to use one of the more mainstream OG-spinoff programs and end up with a reader who has some holes.  I'll also point out that it's possible to *assume* the problem is lack of phonics instruction when it's actually vision or a working memory issue.  My dd started sounding out words on her own, spontaneously, at age 11, when we were a couple months into VT.  Her vision was finally there, and I think they were targeting some EF with the VT.  Whatever the case, she literally all of a sudden started sounding out words.  She could read before then, but she couldn't sound out with any reliability at all.  Her patterns of errors followed her errors with digit spans btw.

 

That just goes back to Heather's point, that evals give you the info to target better.  I thought about going back and intervening with Barton or something, just because dd was so odd to work with, but never did.  She still has a gap between her CTOPP scores and her reading level, even with all the work we did for years and years.  The idea behind WRTR/SWR is to spell the words so much the brain sort of takes it all in, notices the patterns, and takes off reading without sounding out.  It's fascinating and actually did work with dd, but it still left those holes.  Means she pronounces new words oddly that she comes across in reading unless she has heard them before in an audiobook.  I don't *regret* her reading speed or the way I taught her to read, but I wish we had figured out these holes in the more generic programs and dealt with them.  Or maybe it just is what it is, as in they wouldn't have been holes with a NT dc.  At this point we just laugh, correct, and move on.

[Heathermomster]

Yeah, it's evident from his motor difficulties that any program dependent upon handwriting itself would have to be modified. When we removed the handwriting and resorted to typing, the changes with output were obvious because spelling and sentences improved. OP, you could start introducing keyboarding now and turn the spell checker off.

 

He's been evaluated by a COVD and there are no tracking or convergence issues, which is why I expect the play doh letters and minds eye stuff weren't helpful.

 

In spite of his fine motor issues, he is still very much a kinesthetic/experiential type learner.

[OneStepAtATime]

With regards to typing, we ended up using Type to Learn 4 because I could adjust the wpm and accuracy requirements down a bit (or a lot with the wpm) and I could get it pretty cheap through Homeschool Buyer's co-op.  Mom uses Typing Pal, though, and it has a better "feel" for older kids and adults.  With Type to Learn 4, the kids are moving through it really slowly (8 lessons in 8 months), but they are definitely making progress and DS was so excited the other day that he made it through one of the games the first time out.  This particular game is timed and I cannot adjust the timing on this one thing.  He usually has to try several times before he passes, but I guess it was good for teaching perseverence.  This time, he made it way under the one minute mark and felt great.  DD has sequencing issues, so that keeps her moving pretty slowly.  DS has coordination issues and what we just found to be a vision issue, so he moves slowly, but they ARE learning to type. 

[Heathermomster]

Did you happen to purchase a keyboard for smaller hands?

[nerdybird]

I've considered letting DS1 type instead of writing, but I find that he gets distracted by the noise of the keys. We tried using an Google Nexus tablet for a little while, but that too proved to be too much for him to handle responsibly.

 

We tried Dragon Naturally Speaking too....which was frustrating, to say the least.

 

So for now, he writes. He does HWT Cursive a few times a week, and lots of copywork on a dry erase board. He also does quite a bit of letter tracing from HWT Printing. He enjoys the repetition and his sister likes to have contests to see who can write the most or finish fastest.

 

Grips made a big difference for him. I also use larger primary pencils with my kids as I find it lessens their stress during handwriting time. I also bought him a special set of Melissa and Doug Triangular crayons. I purchased Jumbos for him and he loved them, used them until they were nubs, lol. This year I purchased him a set of regulars and he loves them as well. We've also used Alex Toys Finger Crayons. He didn't like them for some reason, but my 3yo really likes them.

 

Another thing that I noticed with DS1 was that he didn't always percieve the edges of the paper or the lines on it like most people do. I used some penguin print duct tape to make a frame to go around his work area and another smaller frame that was just big enough for a sheet of 8.5x11 paper. This seemed to help him see the boundaries and reduced the amount of mess that he made during writing, penmanship and art.

[OneStepAtATime]

I've considered letting DS1 type instead of writing, but I find that he gets distracted by the noise of the keys. We tried using an Google Nexus tablet for a little while, but that too proved to be too much for him to handle responsibly.

 

We tried Dragon Naturally Speaking too....which was frustrating, to say the least.

 

So for now, he writes. He does HWT Cursive a few times a week, and lots of copywork on a dry erase board. He also does quite a bit of letter tracing from HWT Printing. He enjoys the repetition and his sister likes to have contests to see who can write the most or finish fastest.

 

Grips made a big difference for him. I also use larger primary pencils with my kids as I find it lessens their stress during handwriting time. I also bought him a special set of Melissa and Doug Triangular crayons. I purchased Jumbos for him and he loved them, used them until they were nubs, lol. This year I purchased him a set of regulars and he loves them as well. We've also used Alex Toys Finger Crayons. He didn't like them for some reason, but my 3yo really likes them.

 

Another thing that I noticed with DS1 was that he didn't always percieve the edges of the paper or the lines on it like most people do. I used some penguin print duct tape to make a frame to go around his work area and another smaller frame that was just big enough for a sheet of 8.5x11 paper. This seemed to help him see the boundaries and reduced the amount of mess that he made during writing, penmanship and art.

Great ideas!  When I was growing up, I had trouble judging the boundaries of my papers, too, and ended up running off the sides or starting too far into the middle or not starting at the same point on the paper each time.  I didn't get any help with that, just "messy monkey" stickers on my papers.

[Heathermomster]

I highlight the left margin so that DS knows where to start...It is oddly satisfying to know that I'm not the only one. DS is starting to highlight his own papers too.

 

I've just started trying grips, and I bought a big box of golf pencils yesterday.

 

Eta: DS used a NEO for typing. Unfortunately, they are out of business.

[KSinNS]

Hi all, 

 

Thanks again for all the advice. It has been super helpful. Dh and I pondered, and we'll get her evaluated. We may give it a few more months, where she just made a great leap forward (and I'm just off a mat leave, so we have a bit of debt), but I don't think we'll wait any longer than that. I really appreciate all the suggestions. In the meantime, I'll keep reading. Thanks!

[ElizabethB]

Before you pay for testing, I have some free tests and ideas. If she was taught sight words at school, that can mimic dyslexia until you have remediated with enough nonsense words and limited outside reading of stories and sentences to break the guessing habit.

 

I think that most schools in Canada, like those in the U.S., also use some combination of Dolch sight words, leveled readers, and guided reading. These can all cause problems that look like dyslexia but are actually just guessing habits caused by sight word teaching. In my 20 years as a volunteer literacy tutor, the majority of my students have not had dyslexia but instead problems from sight word methods. I have found a few homeschool students taught with good phonics methods who have underlying vision, speech or language processing problems.

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/readinggradeleve.html

 

I would start with the MWIA and the New Elizabethian test.

[KSinNS]

Thanks. Yes, she was taught an almost entirely sight word method in school and encouraged towards invented spellings and not corrected on letter and word formation. I'll have a look at that website. 

[ElizabethB]

Thanks. Yes, she was taught an almost entirely sight word method in school and encouraged towards invented spellings and not corrected on letter and word formation. I'll have a look at that website.

That is even more whole word based than most U.S. schools. That could explain all the dyslexia symptoms, I get those kinds of problems in my remedial students. The thing is, they do remediate fast and get up to grade level within a year of tutoring. A truly dyslexic student will progress much slower. (And, nonsense words and a break from reading sentences and stories is key to fast progress in a remedial student taught with whole language methods.)

 

With the all the tests, you do not want to give feedback until after the tests and never tell a word on the tests. If a student cannot figure out a word, they should say skip, although they should be encouraged to try to sound out all words. Then, you can use the tests again to monitor progress. The speed difference between holistic and phonetic words is a key measure to track progress in converting the brain from guessing habits to sounding out habits. An older student may eventually get down to a 5 or 10 percent time difference between the two and level out there, but a 7 year old should be young enough to eventually get the brain retrained to where the difference is 0 and the two word lists are read at exactly the same rate. A 7 year old should also be able to be trained up to 100% accuracy on the phonetic portion. Accuracy is to be worked for, not speed. Speed will come with time and accurate practice.

 

My sight word page and the movie linked from it explain how this happens a bit more:

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/sightwords.html

 

Also, you will want to use the tips on my how to remediate a student taught with sight words pages:

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/remedialstudents.html

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/howtotutor.html

 

(The MWIA is the test that compares holistic and phonetic words for reading speed and accuracy.)