If you've remediate dyslexia via OG method in high school...

[BlsdMama]

Or even 7th/8th grade, I'd love to hear how it went.

I have an excellent "reader."  Turns out he reads by sight.  Tested at 12+ grade level in a normal reading test.  When tested to read nonsense, phonemic words he reads at below a fifth grade level.  He is moderately dyslexic, presenting as a mild due to an incredible memory.

 

We attended our first Barton workshop and they recommend little to NO reading until the child is at a Level 4 (or equivalent grade level to where they ought to be.)  What does this mean for MY child?  Is he actually going to "absorb" any of what Barton is teaching simply because he's memorized any word he's going to encounter?  My understanding is, essentially, this will provide him with attack tools as words get out of his reach.

 

However, in the meantime, no reading?

 

Freshman year and no reading until Level 4.

I admit I'm a little overwhelmed and any BTDT advice or consolation is welcome.

[OneStepAtATime]

Hi!  Glad you were able to make it through your first workshop.  I know this seems daunting.  We faced something similar with DD, now 13.  She has just completed Level 3 and is in 7th grade.  She is reading now, but I did not have her reading anything assigned during the first three levels and she only read for pleasure at the moment.  Assigned readings I read to her so she isn't guessing.  What they mean by no reading is you don't force them to read on their own, especially out loud, but you can do books on cd or immersion reading or text to speech.  Just no required reading and no textbook reading.  

 

Most older kids have developed coping skills of one kind or another but their reading is very inefficient.  To break those bad habits, you don't have them read ANYTHING for the first two levels, then if they have interest and pick something up for fun, just try to limit the exposure until after Level 4.  I suggest eliminating all reading except what is required in Barton through Level 3, except for audio books, then if they want to pick up a book on their own and read silently, it should be o.k.  Just no textbook reading since they may guess at harder words.  

 

It shouldn't take too, too long to get all the way through the first three levels.  We took 8 months to get through the first 3 levels, but only because we had to take a big break in the middle and we were doing one lesson every week to week and a half.  Most can go faster through the first three levels.  Level 1 probably won't take more than a week or two if you have a cooperative student who can stay focused.  Level 2 might take a couple of weeks to a month.  Level 3 will take longer, but not much longer.  Maybe 3-4 months at the outside?  Level 4 is much longer and more intense, so I really don't know with that one.  I am hoping to complete Level 4 by beginning of May but may be too optimistic a time table...

[MerryAtHope]

Or even 7th/8th grade, I'd love to hear how it went.

 

I have an excellent "reader."  Turns out he reads by sight.  Tested at 12+ grade level in a normal reading test.  When tested to read nonsense, phonemic words he reads at below a fifth grade level.  He is moderately dyslexic, presenting as a mild due to an incredible memory.

 

We attended our first Barton workshop and they recommend little to NO reading until the child is at a Level 4 (or equivalent grade level to where they ought to be.)  What does this mean for MY child?  Is he actually going to "absorb" any of what Barton is teaching simply because he's memorized any word he's going to encounter?  My understanding is, essentially, this will provide him with attack tools as words get out of his reach.

 

However, in the meantime, no reading?

 

Freshman year and no reading until Level 4.

I admit I'm a little overwhelmed and any BTDT advice or consolation is welcome.

 

What is your goal? What problem are you seeing that makes you want to retrain how he reads? I'm trying to decide why you want to do reading remediation when he reads so well. 

 

For example: if he reads extremely well for fiction (lots of context and story line to help a student fill in gaps if they don't know every word), struggles a bit with non-fiction (less context clues to help), struggles greatly with short passages like instructions and test questions where there isn't much context...then reading remediation makes sense.

 

Or: he reads well, but it's slow, labored, hard, unenjoyable for him.

 

Have you actually talked with Barton to see if the usual recommendation would also apply to a child like yours? (not reading until L4). If it does...I wonder if you could do the first levels quickly over the spring & summer and get him back to reading by fall.

 

Does he struggle with spelling? If he really isn't struggling with reading but his gaps show up more in spelling, I'd use an OG spelling program instead. That will fill in the gaps with regard to phonics knowledge and word attack skills, so it will reinforce reading, but mainly focus on spelling. You could still use Barton for that, or another OG based program like All About Spelling. I used AAS with my kids from upper elementary through early high school (they had significant gaps so we took 5 years to go through, but students starting in jr high/high school can often go through in 2-3 years). 

 

Anyway, to me a lot depends on what your goals are and what needs you are seeing. HTH some! Merry :-)

[Julie of KY]

Sure, Barton recommends no outside reading until level 4, but that is so that nonreaders don't get confused and fall into bad habits. It sounds like you already have a good reader. If you want to use Barton then I would call up Susan Barton herself and talk about your situation.

 

I agree with Merry - What do you hope to accomplish? Are there reading issues that are holding him back? What are your goals? More importantly, is he meeting his potential now or not? Does it really matter that he's not great at nonsense words?

 

 

Your son reminds me of mine. In 7th grade while being evaluated for dysgraphia, we were told he has a "reading disorder", but the evaluator would not talk to me any more about it. I was like, what do you mean? He's an avid reader and has no problems that I could see. With time, I watched his reading and listened to his comments. It became clear that he avoided textbook - math/science reading - he wanted it read to him instead. (He didn't need it explained, just read). I had never previously noticed this as I always did math with him since I had to scribe everything and we naturally fell in the habit of me reading the math aloud. He now follows me around asking me to read more math to him so he can work more problems. He just commented tonight that math is way easier to listen to than to read since he has to think so much more to read.

 

8th grade - neuropsych - formally diagnosed dyslexic, qualifies for extended time and off the charts good reading comprehension when given enough time. What to do? No real comments other than extended time and a scribe for dysgraphia.

 

9th grade - ended up a developmental optometrist for sister to have vision therapy. In talking to the doctor and then evaluating my son, the doc has noted several problems with his vision as well. As far as reading, you are supposed to spend about 6/10th of a second per word focused on each word and the optometrist thinks he spends less than 1/10th of a second per word (I may have the times wrong). He says that it appears that his eyes make rapid staccato jumps, but that he's smart enough to put it all together for reading literature. Technical reading is more difficult since you have to note every word and not skip around. There are other issues with his depth perception that may be affecting his handwriting - who knows?

 

Maybe your son's "reading issues" are more about vision? Who knows? I'm not sure I see much of a point of remediating his reading if he's already a good reader.

 

I'd go back to mom instinct and ask yourself if he is meeting his potential or not?

[Heathermomster]

He can listen to audio books; in fact, he can practice listening to audio books with the speed increased up to 120%-130%.  

[Lecka]

I think you should ask. 

 

When people talk about using Barton for spelling, I don't think they follow that reading recommendation. 

[OneStepAtATime]

You have several children you and your daughter are going to be using this program with, if I recall correctly.  None are very young, each one is a bit different in their issues and strengths, and each is at a different reading level.  Susan Barton is a wealth of knowledge.  I agree with PPs.  Contact her, probably by e-mail so you can write everything down clearly for each child, then she can review what you are saying and asking and respond with specifics to all of your questions, especially with regard to no reading for a middle or highschooler.  

 

Best wishes.

[ElizabethB]

I find my students progress at least twice as fast, and sometimes 5 to 10 times faster, when outside reading is limited. But, I also remediate very quickly, trying to get my students through my lessons in a month, two months max. Barton takes a lot longer. I also do a ton of nonsense words. My students progress very fast when they are just focused on reading word lists, doing my concentration game for nonsense words, and working on spelling and word root study.

 

Some of my students need more nonsense words, for them I use We All Can Read, 3rd grade and above.

 

Any running text contains at least 50% sight words, and if I student has memorized by sight a thousand or more words, they will be seeing at least 90% of words that they have learned by sight, which makes it harder to work on good habits of looking at every word and sounding it out from left to right.

[BlsdMama]

Thank you all, for your time, for your responses, and mostly for your recommendation that I contact Susan directly.

 

I did just that and had a detailed response to my rather detailed email within a few hours.   Amazing to me that she bothers and does so efficiently.  It really speaks to her commitment I should think.

 

And so here goes:

 

A "child" who has such ingrained memory reading actually needs even less reading than a child who is perhaps not even so ingrained.  This was my take on her response.

 

Her actual response, was the FOR CHRISTIAN, he should have, ideally, NO UNCONTROLLED TEXT until the END OF LEVEL 4.

 

"The longer you allow him to continue to read by memorizing, the harder it will be to break that habit. And trust me, you will see that habit come into his Barton lessons, and it will slow down his progress in the Barton System."

 

 

So there you have it. 

Her suggestion was to find as many of his texts on audio as is possible.

 

We school eclectically and I have a plan... i think.

 

I'll be doing Algebra with him.  We do Foerester so there is a fair amount of reading but I also think we're about to see the value in that Math without Borders DVD, lol.

 

History  - I'm going to cut back significantly to just SWB's History of the Ancient World with the study guide - me reading.  I really wanted to go through it anyway, right?

Literature - We've already done the Teaching Course on Iliad and he's already read it this year.  He can listen to Odyssey and I have TC's Odyssey.  We'll follow it with Greek myths, both the TC and audio and we should be set.  Anything else can be gotten on audio.

 

Writing - will just go on hold.  We'll pick up next fall and I don't see any issue with that.  Such is life.

We have the access to Apologia Biology on audio and I'm thinking I'll purchase the Biology 101 series.  We'll add in a few labs and some of the Great Courses DVDs there as well and if there are any suggestions for literature on biology (???) I'm all ears.

 

Any other suggestions?

 

I'm looking at the MFW and the TOG I purchased this year for Ancients to combine and honestly feel a little sick and anxious.  But like my husband reminded me earlier this afternoon, do what's important.  Keeping him I suppose.

[OneStepAtATime]

Sounds like you have a great plan in place!  Yeah!  It will work out fine.

 

As for biology, I noticed several threads on biology recently,  You might check the other boards and see if there is useful info being exchanged about biology right now.  :)  I noticed there were several that seemed unhappy or extremely bored with the first half of Apologia Biology, but some liked the second half better.

 

On a side note, I am amazed, too, at all the people that have been able to get really great personal responses from Susan Barton (me included).  That woman must work some amazing hours...

[ElizabethB]

Have you tried my phonics lessons?

[Julie of KY]

Sounds like you have a plan. Keep your eyes on the goal and don't worry about what you are "missing" It will all work out.

[Lecka]

That sounds like a good plan to me, too.

[sandst]

Your son sounds so much like my daughter. She was tested at Grade 12 reading level in Grade 3 and seems ok with Fiction reading. Did very well in spelling. Memorize a list get 100% on test but she cannot decode new words. Is there a place where I can acess the nonsense words tests. She is now 14 and battling with Apologia Science and deading complex instructions in her Math. Hates writting and her writting and spelling are a mess. Thanks in advance for your help.

[OneStepAtATime]

Your son sounds so much like my daughter. She was tested at Grade 12 reading level in Grade 3 and seems ok with Fiction reading. Did very well in spelling. Memorize a list get 100% on test but she cannot decode new words. Is there a place where I can acess the nonsense words tests. She is now 14 and battling with Apologia Science and deading complex instructions in her Math. Hates writting and her writting and spelling are a mess. Thanks in advance for your help.

You might want to start your own thread here on the LC board posing this question.  Otherwise not everyone will get on an old post thread and see this question and you may not get much feedback as a result.

 

Has your child been evaluated for learning issues?  Have you done any systematic remediation of her weak areas? 

[ElizabethB]

Your son sounds so much like my daughter. She was tested at Grade 12 reading level in Grade 3 and seems ok with Fiction reading. Did very well in spelling. Memorize a list get 100% on test but she cannot decode new words. Is there a place where I can acess the nonsense words tests. She is now 14 and battling with Apologia Science and deading complex instructions in her Math. Hates writting and her writting and spelling are a mess. Thanks in advance for your help.

I have a nonsense word test, the New Elizabethian Test. The MWIA is another diagnostic test that you might want to try:

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/readinggradeleve.html

[Quiver0f10]

Thank you all, for your time, for your responses, and mostly for your recommendation that I contact Susan directly.

 

I did just that and had a detailed response to my rather detailed email within a few hours.   Amazing to me that she bothers and does so efficiently.  It really speaks to her commitment I should think.

 

And so here goes:

 

A "child" who has such ingrained memory reading actually needs even less reading than a child who is perhaps not even so ingrained.  This was my take on her response.

 

Her actual response, was the FOR CHRISTIAN, he should have, ideally, NO UNCONTROLLED TEXT until the END OF LEVEL 4.

 

"The longer you allow him to continue to read by memorizing, the harder it will be to break that habit. And trust me, you will see that habit come into his Barton lessons, and it will slow down his progress in the Barton System."

 

 

So there you have it. 

Her suggestion was to find as many of his texts on audio as is possible.

 

We school eclectically and I have a plan... i think.

 

I'll be doing Algebra with him.  We do Foerester so there is a fair amount of reading but I also think we're about to see the value in that Math without Borders DVD, lol.

 

History  - I'm going to cut back significantly to just SWB's History of the Ancient World with the study guide - me reading.  I really wanted to go through it anyway, right?

Literature - We've already done the Teaching Course on Iliad and he's already read it this year.  He can listen to Odyssey and I have TC's Odyssey.  We'll follow it with Greek myths, both the TC and audio and we should be set.  Anything else can be gotten on audio.

 

Writing - will just go on hold.  We'll pick up next fall and I don't see any issue with that.  Such is life.

We have the access to Apologia Biology on audio and I'm thinking I'll purchase the Biology 101 series.  We'll add in a few labs and some of the Great Courses DVDs there as well and if there are any suggestions for literature on biology (???) I'm all ears.

 

Any other suggestions?

 

I'm looking at the MFW and the TOG I purchased this year for Ancients to combine and honestly feel a little sick and anxious.  But like my husband reminded me earlier this afternoon, do what's important.  Keeping him I suppose.

 

 

For literature, my son is doing a lot of immersion reading this year, but I also read a loud to him. We just discuss right now or I have him narrate it back because that is where he is at.  I am considering adding Movies as Literature next  year:http://www.christianbook.com/movies-as-literature-kathryn-stout/9781891975097/pd/975099