Anybody following the whole Mark Driscoll/plagiarizing saga?

[PeachyDoodle]

This is blowing up my Facebook feed, so just wondered if anybody else is talking about it:

 

http://jonathanmerritt.religionnews.com/2013/12/06/mefferd-producer-resigns-driscoll-controversy/

 

[JumpyTheFrog]

They are covering it over at The Wartburg Watch and Spiritual Sounding Board as well. I haven't followed it closely, but it sounds like Mark Driscoll has a habit of bullying people and this time is no different. I am getting fed up with all these famous "pastors" bullying and/or fleecing their congregations.

[PeachyDoodle]

I agree. I listened to the interview and saw the document Mefferd posted highlighting the plagiarism (which has since been removed), and I think the accusations were warranted. And Driscoll has a history of this kind of bad behavior. This whole idea of an evangelical-industrial complex is really interesting, though. Is there anything these days that's not controlled by big business? Or is that all a lame conspiracy theory?

[JumpyTheFrog]

Is there anything these days that's not controlled by big business? 

 

I think many of these "pastors" are really the hirelings that Jesus warned about. They run their churches like businesses and think they are CEOs that deserve riches and power. Then they get their churches to pay for them to go to conferences to sell their books, which they usually wrote on church time, even though the author and not the church gets the royalties. Even worse, many of these celebrity pastors use a research service called Docent that practically writes their sermons for them (and they aren't using the time saved to go visit members in the hospital, either).

 

I'm not Catholic, but I'm starting to see why they may have begun requiring priests to take vows of poverty.

[PeachyDoodle]

I think many of these "pastors" are really the hirelings that Jesus warned about. They run their churches like businesses and think they are CEOs that deserve riches and power. Then they get their churches to pay for them to go to conferences to sell their books, which they usually wrote on church time, even though the author and not the church gets the royalties. Even worse, many of these celebrity pastors use a research service called Docent that practically writes their sermons for them (and they aren't using the time saved to go visit members in the hospital, either).

 

I'm not Catholic, but I'm starting to see why they may have begun requiring priests to take vows of poverty.

 

And then they turn around and sell their sermon series to pastors of smaller churches. A couple of Christmases ago, I was sitting in church watching my mom, who was clearly elsewhere mentally during the sermon. Afterwards, I asked her if she was okay. She said, "Oh, I'm fine. It's just that I've heard this sermon before." Her small group had done the exact same study the week before, and she'd been the teacher. The pastor preached the lesson nearly word-for-word (and with no citation, either).

 

Hirelings, indeed.

 

[Sallie Mae]

This is written by a college professor and a blogger who thinks it’s even worse than just plagiarism. He deliberately fabricated his research. Here’s his article: http://www.pajamapages.com/on-driscoll-its-a-straight-red/

[6packofun]

He frustrates me immensely.  I feel like shaking my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ who continue to buy his books, listen to him teach/preach, and give him any sort of platform whatsoever.  When a Christian pastor shows himself to be purposely *pursuing* celebrity and shows such a lack of character as with this plagiarism thing--among his other faults!--then that is when you need to stop allowing that person to speak into your life with any authority whatsoever.  His book Real Sex was disturbing enough to me to stop listening to anything he says.  I wasn't listening intently before, mainly because I'm not reformed, but now I actually STOP people from telling me about him or what he has said.  He doesn't get an audience with me ever again.  Misogynist celebrity hound with a huge ego.  No thanks.  I'll get my theology from people with stronger characters.  And to those who say don't throw out the baby with the bathwater and we're all sinners, blah blah blah?  Well, even jerks, egotists, or false teachers get things right part of the time.  Doesn't mean I need to give them my time or money; in fact, I should NOT.

[PeachyDoodle]

His book Real Sex was disturbing enough to me to stop listening to anything he says.

 

I think it was called "Real Marriage," but regardless, it was disturbing. The sheer explicitness was bad enough, but the whole thing about him having a vision of his wife's love life before they were married? :ack2:

 

I honestly do not know why anybody listens to a word this clown says.

[Plateau Mama]

. I haven't followed it closely, but it sounds like Mark Driscoll has a habit of bullying people and this time is no different.

He absolutely is a bully.

 

His church acquired my last church. They made us all sorts of promises and the reneged on Every. Single. One. When we called our local pastor on it we were told "you have no right to question us, if you don't like how we do things then leave." All but 2-3 original families from the previous church have left. I call it "The Gospel According to Mark". If he didn't "write" the curriculum he doesn't allow it to be used in HIS church. He wouldn't let our women's group continue because he didn't know who Beth Moore was. How can you pastor a church and not know who Beth Moore is? All of his pastors (that I know of) are not seminary trained, they are all trained in his "school", most have never pastored anywhere else.

 

I put "write" in quotes because I never believed he wrote all he does on his own. I never thought of plagiarism, but I did think that he often puts his name on other writers books (lots of his books are co-authored) with his name as primary.

[PeachyDoodle]

He absolutely is a bully.

 

His church acquired my last church. They made us all sorts of promises and the reneged on Every. Single. One. When we called our local pastor on it we were told "you have no right to question us, if you don't like how we do things then leave." All but 2-3 original families from the previous church have left. I call it "The Gospel According to Mark". If he didn't "write" the curriculum he doesn't allow it to be used in HIS church. He wouldn't let our women's group continue because he didn't know who Beth Moore was. How can you pastor a church and not know who Beth Moore is? All of his pastors (that I know of) are not seminary trained, they are all trained in his "school", most have never pastored anywhere else.

 

I put "write" in quotes because I never believed he wrote all he does on his own. I never thought of plagiarism, but I did think that he often puts his name on other writers books (lots of his books are co-authored) with his name as primary.

 

Wow. Just... wow. Everything I've ever read about him just confirms that he has an ego the size of the moon. I'm no Beth Moore fan, personally, but how would he not know her? They've probably been speakers at some of the same conferences!

 

How does a church acquire another church? I've never heard of such a thing! What kind of school does he have for pastors, and how does he get away with that?

 

[JumpyTheFrog]

The Wartburg Watch has a post or two (plus some comments here and there) about groups covertly taking over churches. They move in, start changing everything, and drive away most long-time members, especially the senior citizens. It's a dispicable way for them to get a building and be debt free.

[6packofun]

I think it was called "Real Marriage," but regardless, it was disturbing. The sheer explicitness was bad enough, but the whole thing about him having a vision of his wife's love life before they were married? :ack2:

 

I honestly do not know why anybody listens to a word this clown says.

 

Oh, yes, thank you for the correction!  lol  I guess the parts on sex were all that I remember.  Unfortunately.

 

[6packofun]

 I'm no Beth Moore fan, personally, but how would he not know her?

 

 

 

Maybe it was really that she didn't know who HE was at the time and his massive ego couldn't handle sharing any attention/leadership.  lol 

 

[PrincessMommy]

And then they turn around and sell their sermon series to pastors of smaller churches. A couple of Christmases ago, I was sitting in church watching my mom, who was clearly elsewhere mentally during the sermon. Afterwards, I asked her if she was okay. She said, "Oh, I'm fine. It's just that I've heard this sermon before." Her small group had done the exact same study the week before, and she'd been the teacher. The pastor preached the lesson nearly word-for-word (and with no citation, either).

 

Hirelings, indeed.

 

 

horrifying!

 

I also agree that the idea of a Evangelical Industrial Complex is disturbing.  I'm not evangelical, but I used to be and many people I love and care about still are.  This is heartbreaking.  I'm glad it's coming to light.... they need to clean the barn out - so to speak.

 

[Plateau Mama]

Wow. Just... wow. Everything I've ever read about him just confirms that he has an ego the size of the moon. I'm no Beth Moore fan, personally, but how would he not know her? They've probably been speakers at some of the same conferences!

 

How does a church acquire another church? I've never heard of such a thing! What kind of school does he have for pastors, and how does he get away with that?

 

http://theresurgence.com/retrain

 

 

 

Without going into the story. Our church was going under. Rather than having our building be sold for a secular purpose we looked for another church to give our building to. We chose them because of the few choices we had we felt they would fit our current congregation best.

 

My husband accidentally got on an email group that was supposed to be just for leaders regarding the transition. Some of the stuff said and attitudes were unbelievable.

 

He has his own school all of his pastors go thru HIS school. I'm pretty sure he intentionally seeks out people who have no previous pastoring experience/training so they can be trained as his minion. http://theresurgence.com/retrain

The Wartburg Watch has a post or two (plus some comments here and there) about groups covertly taking over churches. They move in, start changing everything, and drive away most long-time members, especially the senior citizens. It's a dispicable way for them to get a building and be debt free.

Well, they didn't get our property debt free, but they did get a prime piece of property in a prime city with very few churches. He really thought he could do whatever he wanted and all the previous congregation would stay. I can't remember exactly how it was worded (from the email list DH accidentally got on), but they thought we would all stay.

 

Oh and the email list was called assimilation. It made me feel like I was being assimilated into the Borg.

[PeachyDoodle]

Without going into the story. Our church was going under. Rather than having our building be sold for a secular purpose we looked for another church to give our building to. We chose them because of the few choices we had we felt they would fit our current congregation best.

 

My husband accidentally got on an email group that was supposed to be just for leaders regarding the transition. Some of the stuff said and attitudes were unbelievable.

 

He has his own school all of his pastors go thru HIS school. I'm pretty sure he intentionally seeks out people who have no previous pastoring experience/training so they can be trained as his minion. http://theresurgence.com/retrain

 

Well, they didn't get our property debt free, but they did get a prime piece of property in a prime city with very few churches. He really thought he could do whatever he wanted and all the previous congregation would stay. I can't remember exactly how it was worded (from the email list DH accidentally got on), but they thought we would all stay.

 

I've seen lots of churches/pastors get taken in by this kind of seeker-driven/business model paradigm (my own included). I just didn't realize there were some that actively acquire faltering congregations. This just keeps getting sicker.

 

The Retrain website even says that their program is not a seminary and will not prepare a person to be a lead pastor (although since when are there "degrees" of pastors, but I guess that's a different conversation). I suppose if you were acquired by his organization, though, *he* is technically the "lead pastor," so all those minions are getting exactly what they need and no more from his training program.

 

I don't know if that email loop included Driscoll himself, but if it did, I would be willing to bet that all the "hope the previous congregation will stay" stuff was probably a front. I've heard audio more than once of him saying that he's all about "blessed subtraction" -- meaning that if you don't agree with his vision you can just get out. He goes on to say in that same clip, "There is a pile of dead bodies behind the Mars Hill bus (chuckle), and by God's grace, it'll be a mountain by the time we're done.... â€ŽYou either get on the bus, or you get run over by the bus. Those are the options." :eek:

 

I'm sorry your church fell victim to this. I hope you have a church home now that cares about you as a person.

 

[PeachyDoodle]

Oh and the email list was called assimilation. It made me feel like I was being assimilated into the Borg.

 

See, that right there is evidence that maybe there is some truth to this whole "Evangelical Industrial Complex" thing. You are no longer an individual, you are just a cog in the machine. You only exist to carry out some pastor's so-called "vision" that was supposedly was downloaded into his brain directly from God.  ::shudder::

 

Fighting for the Faith's Chris Rosebrough posted this today:

 

The Evangelical Industrial Complex (EIC) has learned that there is millions upon millions of dollars to be made by mimicking the world's celebrity driven/product driven culture... The EIC is not interested in promoting or teaching sound Biblical doctrine or building up the body of Christ. They're interested in making obscene profits by promoting their stable of manufactured and contrived "Christian" celebrities. They don't care if their super stars teach the truths of scripture accurately. What they care about is that the evangelical subculture purchases the merchandise churned out by their untouchable mega stars. Sadly, so much of what passes today as Christian Media & Journalism has turned into nothing more than a rubber stamp approval and promotion of the merchandise of these young, hip crowd pleasers.

 

Source: http://www.fightingforthefaith.com/2013/12/i-told-you-this-was-no-boating-accident.html

[TranquilMind]

I think many of these "pastors" are really the hirelings that Jesus warned about. They run their churches like businesses and think they are CEOs that deserve riches and power. Then they get their churches to pay for them to go to conferences to sell their books, which they usually wrote on church time, even though the author and not the church gets the royalties. Even worse, many of these celebrity pastors use a research service called Docent that practically writes their sermons for them (and they aren't using the time saved to go visit members in the hospital, either).

 

I'm not Catholic, but I'm starting to see why they may have begun requiring priests to take vows of poverty.

I agree with you to a degree.  Jesus said, "Freely, you have received.  Freely give."  I'm always put out by Pastors selling everything. 

 

And pastors who don't even spend their own time in prayer and get a message from God themselves for their congregations are just charlatans.  That is a minimal requirement, and everybody knows if you aren't doing the work. 

Not sure the Catholic model is much better though.  It has other serious problems. 

[TranquilMind]

See, that right there is evidence that maybe there is some truth to this whole "Evangelical Industrial Complex" thing. You are no longer an individual, you are just a cog in the machine. You only exist to carry out some pastor's so-called "vision" that was supposedly was downloaded into his brain directly from God.  ::shudder::

 

Fighting for the Faith's Chris Rosebrough posted this today:

 

 

Source: http://www.fightingforthefaith.com/2013/12/i-told-you-this-was-no-boating-accident.html

I see what you are saying, but see...that's the thing.  If it is REALLY a vision from God, and you are supposed to be a part of it, then God "downloaded" it into your brain as well. 

 

No Christian is to simply follow blindly.  If God didn't give ME a word about something, then it is not my deal.  I always know and expect others will too. 

[TranquilMind]

Wow. Just... wow. Everything I've ever read about him just confirms that he has an ego the size of the moon. I'm no Beth Moore fan, personally, but how would he not know her? They've probably been speakers at some of the same conferences!

 

How does a church acquire another church? I've never heard of such a thing! What kind of school does he have for pastors, and how does he get away with that?

 

Wow.  Yeah...that sounds extremely controlling.  And who doesn't know who Beth Moore is?

[PeachyDoodle]

I see what you are saying, but see...that's the thing.  If it is REALLY a vision from God, and you are supposed to be a part of it, then God "downloaded" it into your brain as well. 

 

No Christian is to simply follow blindly.  If God didn't give ME a word about something, then it is not my deal.  I always know and expect others will too. 

 

We have a slight difference of theology. I used to think I had to find out some specific thing God wanted me to accomplish or be a part of, but the longer I study, the more I become a cessationist. I just don't find any scriptural basis for God speaking to me through some hunch or feeling outside of scripture. I think the Bible tells me everything I need to know about what I'm supposed to be doing.

 

But we can agree that there's REALLY no basis for believing that God will speak to somebody else about what he wants ME to be doing!

 

However, that is the model many, many churches are adopting -- pastor as vision-caster, and you either follow "God's dream" or get run over by the bus. Driscoll is not alone, but he's certainly a pioneer.

[Seasider]

Wow. Yeah...that sounds extremely controlling. And who doesn't know who Beth Moore is?

My guess is that he knows full well who Beth Moore is. I believe it's more that, because she is a woman, he doesn't recognize her as a teacher.

[TranquilMind]

We have a slight difference of theology. I used to think I had to find out some specific thing God wanted me to accomplish or be a part of, but the longer I study, the more I become a cessationist. I just don't find any scriptural basis for God speaking to me through some hunch or feeling outside of scripture. I think the Bible tells me everything I need to know about what I'm supposed to be doing.

 

But we can agree that there's REALLY no basis for believing that God will speak to somebody else about what he wants ME to be doing!

 

However, that is the model many, many churches are adopting -- pastor as vision-caster, and you either follow "God's dream" or get run over by the bus. Driscoll is not alone, but he's certainly a pioneer.

Ha.  I used to be a cessationist and the longer I study, I realize there was no stopping point scripturally for the gifts of God.  However, I didn't mean that I hear angels sing and get a big specific, "Revelation-type" vision or word for every thing.

 

 

I meant merely that if God wants me to be involved in something, it becomes very clear to me scripturally and otherwise, and is "established by 2 or 3 witnesses", as scripture says.  I am every bit as capable of hearing from God on my direction as anyone else.  So I make no apologies if I'm simply not going to be participating in something.  It's not for me. 

 

 

I do not believe in ANY way that God gives a vision ONLY to the pastor and others must blindly follow.  I hope I have clarified that part anyway.   What really happens is that a Pastor says, "I've been thinking for a long time that we should do X", and then several other people have exactly the same view, though maybe it came to them different ways.  One saw something on TV and has been thinking about it for a year.  Another ran into a guy downtown and realized that X is a very necessary service that needs to be provided, and he should be involved in it.  Maybe another had a dream about it.    The Holy Spirit brings all these people together to get things done.  If there is ANY coercion, pressure, anything like that...it is NOT of God. 

 

[TranquilMind]

My guess is that he knows full well who Beth Moore is. I believe it's more that, because she is a woman, he doesn't recognize her as a teacher.

That's just stupid, isn't it.  God apparently recognizes her.

Reminds me of an event long ago where I was preaching at a mission.  I was accompanied by some elderly 80+ year old Baptist men (Baptist part is important, because they are very patriarchal and do not recognize women as leaders, at least the old-timers). 

 

At any rate, we kept going together and they kept wanting me to do the preaching.  At one point the Mission leader guy got up and condescendingly said to me, "Thank you so much, Mrs. X, for your testimony.  Many women have fine testimonies.." or something like that.  Well, my 85 year old Baptist Deacon friend went right to the podium and said, "Perhaps you do not recognize X (me) as a preacher, but let me tell you, GOD recognizes her as a preacher!"

 

 

I thought I was going to cry.  It was amazing

 

. 

The Mission informed our church that women were no longer to "preach" but could "testify".     Lol.  Okie dokie then.

[Seasider]

Oh, Tranquil Mind. Perhaps next time you could testify to Acts 2:17-18.

[Plateau Mama]

 

The Retrain website even says that their program is not a seminary and will not prepare a person to be a lead pastor (although since when are there "degrees" of pastors, but I guess that's a different conversation). I suppose if you were acquired by his organization, though, *he* is technically the "lead pastor," so all those minions are getting exactly what they need and no more from his training program.

 

I don't know if that email loop included Driscoll himself, but if it did, I would be willing to bet that all the "hope the previous congregation will stay" stuff was probably a front. I've heard audio more than once of him saying that he's all about "blessed subtraction" -- meaning that if you don't agree with his vision you can just get out. He goes on to say in that same clip, "There is a pile of dead bodies behind the Mars Hill bus (chuckle), and by God's grace, it'll be a mountain by the time we're done.... â€ŽYou either get on the bus, or you get run over by the bus. Those are the options." :eek:

 

I'm sorry your church fell victim to this. I hope you have a church home now that cares about you as a person.

 

The email loop did have Driscoll in it and he was the one who said none of us would leave.

 

It is definitely his way or the highway when it comes to his church.

 

We do have a lovely church home and most of our church came to the same church we ended up at so that made things easier.

  

See, that right there is evidence that maybe there is some truth to this whole "Evangelical Industrial Complex" thing. You are no longer an individual, you are just a cog in the machine. You only exist to carry out some pastor's so-called "vision" that was supposedly was downloaded into his brain directly from God.  ::shudder::

 

]

shudder is right. Once I heard about the assimilation I could not get past the Borg feeling.  

My guess is that he knows full well who Beth Moore is. I believe it's more that, because she is a woman, he doesn't recognize her as a teacher.

Maybe, but he seriously does not allow any curriculum that he has not written (kids, women etc). I feel that a church shouldn't by about one person (in this case Mark) and when it is you set yourself up for trouble. No one persons interpretation of the Bible is 100% correct and when we blindly follow one person and don't do our own studying you can easily be led astray.

[kbutton]

 

I do not believe in ANY way that God gives a vision ONLY to the pastor and others must blindly follow.  I hope I have clarified that part anyway.   What really happens is that a Pastor says, "I've been thinking for a long time that we should do X", and then several other people have exactly the same view, though maybe it came to them different ways.  One saw something on TV and has been thinking about it for a year.  Another ran into a guy downtown and realized that X is a very necessary service that needs to be provided, and he should be involved in it.  Maybe another had a dream about it.    The Holy Spirit brings all these people together to get things done.  If there is ANY coercion, pressure, anything like that...it is NOT of God. 

 

 

That's nicely stated...I wish our last church had been that way. We now attend a large church (around 800), and while we might not hear about an idea until just before it's implemented, our pastor runs his ideas by about 70 people (staff, deacons, etc.) before making changes. In addition, the church is very good about "trying" things before making them permanent.

 

I am saddened by much of what I'm seeing in many churches lately. It just doesn't make sense.

[Susan in TN]

 

I don't know if that email loop included Driscoll himself, but if it did, I would be willing to bet that all the "hope the previous congregation will stay" stuff was probably a front. I've heard audio more than once of him saying that he's all about "blessed subtraction" -- meaning that if you don't agree with his vision you can just get out. He goes on to say in that same clip, "There is a pile of dead bodies behind the Mars Hill bus (chuckle), and by God's grace, it'll be a mountain by the time we're done.... ‎You either get on the bus, or you get run over by the bus. Those are the options." :eek:

 

 

This is one reason I have the (somewhat unpopular) opinion that denominations are a good thing. When people join a church and/or commit to walking in faith with a particular group of people for as long as God would have them in that community, it's just such a sad thing to be told "like it or leave it." What recourse do people have if their pastor goes off the deep end? What recourse does a pastor have if his congregation/elders/ruling committee go off the deep end?

 

It's never perfect, but it's better than the Frank Sinatra-esque "I Did It Myyyyyyyy Waaaaaaaayyy" method.

[PeachyDoodle]

Ha.  I used to be a cessationist and the longer I study, I realize there was no stopping point scripturally for the gifts of God.  However, I didn't mean that I hear angels sing and get a big specific, "Revelation-type" vision or word for every thing.

 

 

I meant merely that if God wants me to be involved in something, it becomes very clear to me scripturally and otherwise, and is "established by 2 or 3 witnesses", as scripture says.  I am every bit as capable of hearing from God on my direction as anyone else.  So I make no apologies if I'm simply not going to be participating in something.  It's not for me. 

 

 

I do not believe in ANY way that God gives a vision ONLY to the pastor and others must blindly follow.  I hope I have clarified that part anyway.   What really happens is that a Pastor says, "I've been thinking for a long time that we should do X", and then several other people have exactly the same view, though maybe it came to them different ways.  One saw something on TV and has been thinking about it for a year.  Another ran into a guy downtown and realized that X is a very necessary service that needs to be provided, and he should be involved in it.  Maybe another had a dream about it.    The Holy Spirit brings all these people together to get things done.  If there is ANY coercion, pressure, anything like that...it is NOT of God. 

 

 

Yes, I follow what you're saying, and I think that we are far more in agreement than not. God definitely orchestrates events according to His will, and as Christians we certainly don't need a human mediator -- or worse, a dictator -- telling us what God would have us do. The pastor has authority only insofar as he preaches God's commands as revealed in scripture, and those commands tend to be more general -- e.g., care for the poor vs. start a soup kitchen that feeds the homeless on Tuesday and Thursday afternoons. The pastor doesn't get to decide that I am obligated to follow his specific plan just because he thinks it's a good idea.

 

Unfortunately, it seems to be a growing trend for pastors to claim that as the "leader" of a congregation they are responsible for setting the vision and the congregation is responsible for carrying out that vision. It flies in the face of the scriptural model of pastor as shepherd. When did you ever see sheep working for the shepherd?

 

This is one reason I have the (somewhat unpopular) opinion that denominations are a good thing. When people join a church and/or commit to walking in faith with a particular group of people for as long as God would have them in that community, it's just such a sad thing to be told "like it or leave it." What recourse do people have if their pastor goes off the deep end? What recourse does a pastor have if his congregation/elders/ruling committee go off the deep end?

 

It's never perfect, but it's better than the Frank Sinatra-esque "I Did It Myyyyyyyy Waaaaaaaayyy" method.

 

I agree with you that denominational structure does provide oversight that helps prevent some of those abuses. But we were told  to "like it or leave it" at our last church, and it was a United Methodist congregation. I'm not really pro- or anti-denominations (I've been members of both kinds of churches), but either way, the ultimate responsibility lies with the congregation. If they are scripturally illiterate and/or easily swayed by a pastor's charisma, they can easily buy into this craziness, and they will defend it to the death. It's deceptive and it's vile.