Using Math Mammoth Wrong?....and Singapore/Saxon questions==frustrated!

[LAmom]

How do you use MM if it is your math curriculum?  With my 5th and 3rd graders I have them take out 2 pages, read the instructions and let me know if they understand or don't understand.  Then they work independently.....very slowly....  

Today it took my 5th grader almost 3 hours to do a review section!  ACK.  I asked her if it is because she doesn't understand or what is going on.  She says she just doesn't like math.

 

Anyways, do you sit with each child and go through the work together?  Do you spend longer than 1 minute teaching how to do the section of math?

 

There have been a few cases of me not understanding how to explain a problem.  I can sometimes look at the answer and figure out how that way.  But not always!  And my poor 3rd grader loved math up until he started learning 5 methods on how to subtract.  It has really confused him.  It is actually book 2B.  :(  Two kids that don't like math.  BOO.

 

Anyways, I don't just want to jump ship.  Maybe change how I do some things.  I don't really want time-consuming math for the teacher (me), since I am working 1:1 with my first grader while juggling other little ones.  

 

Does Singapore or Saxon have better helps with instruction?  I may switch to Singapore because of the HIG but things I've read here makes it seem quite frustrating to juggle the textbook, workbook and HIG compared to just handing a sheet of MM to your child.  Make sense?  And who knows if Saxon is what would be best for my kids?!  It works for many of my friends....  Maybe it is just the right style for them.  I really can't tell if they are mastery or spiral kids or what the deal is but we fight about productivity and math daily.  :/  

 

Thanks for listening to my long, loaded ramble.  I just need something to change.  I can't stand watching my dd10 just space out when math is put in front of her.  She loves learning....just not math.  :(  I want her to at least be able to sort of enjoy it.  

 

DD10 has a test tomorrow.  Do I time her?  I don't know what a normal time frame would be for a test.  I know that I want her to work quickly and be prepared for test taking in high school/college!  Any suggestions?

 

 

 

[boscopup]

I'm not using MM now, but I used grades 1-4 with my oldest when he was 1st-2nd grade. He's very mathy, so we kind of sped through some parts (skipped 2B entirely).

 

1) I took the workbook in MY hand and taught the material at the white board. This kept kiddo interested and got him discussing things. We had great discussions about math that weren't even in the workbook.

2) We did a few problems together, so I could see how he was handling the new concept.

3) From #2 above, I determined how many problems kiddo needed to do in that section. If he found it easy peasy, I might just have him do 5-10 problems. If he found it difficult, he might get all the problems assigned. It was VERY rare that I assigned more than half the problems in a drill type section (one where there are a lot of problems). I did assign all word problems.

4) When he was younger, I would sometimes alternate who writes - so he writes a problem, I write a problem, etc. This kept his attention and caused him to move faster through the work. I haven't had to do that in a long time, thankfully. :)

5) We did one section per day (so 2-3 pages usually). If he went over 30 minutes, I'd put it away and get something else out (completely different subject). We'd then come back to MM later in the day. At the 1st-2nd grade age, more than 30 minutes meant he was getting nothing done. For 5th grade, I'd probably make that limit an hour. Stop, do the rest later. Or stop and do the rest tomorrow. You may find that she works faster if she knows she only has to work for an hour. ;)

6) Since my son is accelerated, if he knew a topic already, and it was really obvious that he knew the entire chapter contents, I'd give him the chapter test and move him along. That's how we ended up skipping 2B (which was 3-digit addition/subtraction... he figured that out from 2-digit).

7) I interspersed Singapore CWP/IP and Zaccaro in there for fun some days, so it wasn't all MM all the time.

 

I did end up switching my oldest to Singapore and we both liked that much better (I didn't have to skip problems!), though we only used it for a couple grade levels. This child had done Saxon at school, and I knew it was NOT a good fit for him. Too slow and repetitive. The worksheets in grade 1 were exactly the same from day to day, but with one or two minor changes and different numbers, of course. Drove ME insane. I know 5/4 and up are much better, but even looking at those, I know he'd be bored to tears. Your kids, OTOH, may very well like it. Personally, I'd recommend looking at CLE first, as they are spiral (keeping things interesting), but move faster than Saxon.

 

I've used a couple sections of MM with my middle son, who is doing CLE and Beast Academy right now. When we finished Singapore 1B, he needed more work on money, so I took him through the money section of MM1. We alternated who wrote, and I kept lessons short. We'd just do a page at a time, usually. Then after he'd done a couple light units of CLE 200, I gave him the BA pre-assessment, where he did quite well. He didn't know how to subtract with regrouping yet - that is coming up very soon in CLE. He wanted to start BA, so I pulled out the subtraction with regrouping portion of MM2, and we did the three sections on that topic over the course of a week or so. Again, I alternated writing (he's 1st grade) and kept lessons short - 15-20 minutes tops. Plus I had the dangled carrot of doing BA afterward. ;) That worked great, and he is very good at subtraction with regrouping now. :D

[Farrar]

One of my ds is using MM and has pretty much all the way through.  He's on 4b now.

 

Here's what we do:

* I print out big sections and he just works through that by time, not by a certain number of pages.  

* I don't have him do all the problems.  

* If I can see that one of MM's "in between" steps is going to just confuse him, we skip it.  It's the mastery of the final skill that matters, not the in between one.  So, for example, he needs to be able to subtract in parts in his head, not be able to write down the parts and figure out MM's system for showing that.  

* Sometimes, I have him just work on his own.  But often if it's at all new or hard, I "buddy math" the page with him.  He does one and I do one.  I talk out my method and let that be the teaching.  It usually works well and keeps him moving so it doesn't take him forever.

* I spice it up with other things like games, living math books, the Ed Zaccaro books, etc.  We're reading Murderous Maths right now.

* I let him take MM breaks for a week or two (he's on one now, actually) where he works on other things instead because MM does get a bit droning. 

 

I think MM isn't for every kid for many of the reasons you list.  My other ds uses other programs because MM just frustrated him and he loves math.

[WahM]

I look over the section we are going to use then I introduce with manipulatives when possible let them explore with that, then I do a written explanation on the white board, then sit together work some problems together, let them do some on their own, but always checking in. We only do two pages, sometimes three if the first page was mostly just examples. I have rarely had to cross out problems, I really don't feel that there are too many problems on a couple pages. I think the practice is good and it really sinks in to do hem all even for the kid who seems to get it right off the bat.

[alef]

 With a 3rd grader, I sit with them or my husband sits with them (yes, math sometimes gets put off till the evening) and go through every problem together if necessary. Sometimes they just need to the moral support to get through the hard work. My ten year old does the work on her own and only comes to me if she has a question.  I try to stay on top of how well she is understanding things and assign problems accordingly--I assign more problems when there is a concept she seems to need more practice with, if she is sailing through a concept I will cross about half the problems off the page.

 

With the multiple methods, I will have the child go through all the explanations and try a problem or two, but then let them choose which method works best for them for the rest of the problems.

 

I don't do tests in elementary school.

[umsami]

We use it similarly.  I don't necessarily choose two pages….just kind of take a look…and see what feels right.  I have him read it and do it independently, although if it seems to be taking a long time or he needs help, he knows to ask.

 

We also used Math in Focus which required a lot of teaching on my part.  MM is much easier--and I honestly think it's working just as well for him.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Boscopup and Farrar pretty much described what we do, so I won't repeat all that.  I will just say that my 2nd grader does 2 pages a day, and I'm right beside her.  I will also write for her if she wants me to.  So far she's done pretty much every problem.  It goes quickly, and as she's still mastering facts, it's good practice even though she understands the concept.

 

My 6th grader can do MM6 independently - but she didn't in 4th and 5th.  In 4th grade, I pretty much had to sit with her, or hover nearby.  In 5th grade, it got more independent as the year went on, but not totally.  Kids at those ages are often not great at reading the instructions and teaching themselves.  Even if they say they did . . . they probably didn't.  So taking 5-10 minutes to go over the teaching boxes with them first thing can actually save a lot of time in the long run.  By 4th & 5th grade, we pretty much never did all the problems on a page, and we definitely skipped intermediate steps when it was clear she had the concept down.

[kiana]

I don't think the program matters - I just don't think that you're going to find a program that you can hand to your kids and have them teach themselves and work industriously on. Most children of this age just aren't ready for that level of independence.

[chiguirre]

We're not using MM, but Trinqueta's been known to take inordinate amounts of time to do math and Latin on occasion. She's actually asked me to sit next to her to keep her on task, so she's aware of the problem. I'm trying to get her to be able to do more on her own, but she says her mind wanders to much without an outside enforcer.

[Twilight Woods]

We will be starting 2B soon. She knows how to do 3 digit adding/subtraction so I do not anticipate doing all the sections. SHe does have several different methods but we will only be doing the one she knows and likes using. We typically do 1-2 pages a day depending on her attention span/mood. I teach the method on the whiteboard then have her do a few problems to make sure she has grasped the concept. If she understands she only does every other problem and all the word problems. If she needs more practice then we do all of them. 

[Paige]

It depends on the kid. I think MM appears to be self-teaching, but IMO, it is a mistake to have the work text do all of the teaching unless your child is super good at math. When I was in school, there were usually explanations in the book, but the teacher didn't just say "read this, do this, and come to me if you have questions." Teachers would put the explanations in their own words, work through some problems on the board, have students work through some on the board, and then send us off to do independent work and come to her for questions.

 

What I do is go over the pages with them. Then we work some similar problems on the white board. I explain, make up some of my own problems and work through them, then I give the kids some problems on the board and see if they can do it, then they take the pages for independent practice. I have varying degrees of math success going on with my kids, but I think that would be true for any program. My first grader doesn't get as much instruction sometimes because it is so basic and she catches on quickly. My DS is really good at math and did not need much instruction beyond the worktext in the younger years, but now that he's in 6th grade I spend more time. I think he may try to skip reading and jump to the work without truly understanding why if I don't force him to slow down with me. I sometimes stop before doing the next page if they can't seem to get it quickly enough. Right now, for instance, my 4th graders are doing division but it seems too slow to me. I'm making them review their times tables again before we move on. Division is painful if the times tables aren't solid.

 

I had trouble in past years because I was using the work text as the main instruction. It had worked for DS because he picks it up quickly and intuitively. For DDs, they need more instruction and when I actually read the instructions in front of the chapters in MM, it seems like she was expecting that parents would be providing more instruction than just the pages- as needed, of course. DDs are doing so much better this year with more guidance and examples on everything.

[trulycrabby]

Here's what I do with Singapore Math to avoid juggling multiple books: I made binders out of the HIG, textbook and workbook, so I just take out the applicable HIG sheets, textbook lesson, workbook exercise, and do the lesson. The text states which workbook  exercise follows every lesson, so it is pretty much open and go. Easy peasy. :)

[LAmom]

Well, thanks so much everyone.  I know math shouldn't be completely independent...but it is easy to just make MM that way!  I will try to do more 1:1 with the older 2.  I keep wanting to switch curriculum but I know that probably isn't the main problem!  OH, so frustrating.  I emailed Maria about how long expected for a test, too, and she says she doesn't time.  But, I know that it probably shouldn't take my dd 3 hours!  

[Farrar]

The last time I did an MM test, it did take my slow worker dreamer a solid 2.5 hours total.  Broken up.  But I just accept that's how he is...

 

Honestly, it sounds like none of you are enjoying yourselves.  MM is a good program, but there are others.  Find the math love instead.  That's my advice.  Do something fun for math and then try another program.  You can always go back to MM if it's not working.  Presumably it's worth the risk to see if you can find something else that works.  My other ds, who doesn't use MM, has program hopped and he is the kid who understands math better, so I don't think there's an inherent risk to it or anything.

[fourisenough]

My 9 year old just finished 4B. I would say the tests took her 15 minutes to complete. On test day she typically does the chapter review section & test or the test & the 2-page cumulative review from the test booklet. I think that If tests are taking that long, it is not a good fit (either the curriculum in general or that the child is placed in the wrong level). Just my two cents.