If you were in her shoes, is there anything I could say to change your mind?

[AimeeM]

As another poster stated, I would ask is this man the example she wants her son to have. Does she want her son to learn it is ok to push mom around. Does she want her son to learn it is ok to control a girlfriend or wife like this. How will she feel when she watches her son do these things.

 

I would let her know she can call you anytime.

 

This probably would not work, but maybe if she was given an independent perspective on Islam and Iraq it might help her to see some of the distortions. Do you know any families that practice Islam in your area? I know a few where I live. I know families from Iraq. Perhaps if you knew a woman from such a family who could visit with you and your sister to explain "how things work". Maybe such a perspective would help her begin to realize this man's "how things work" is a distortion. I don't know any families who are Muslim who drink. I don't know for sure about Iraq but drinking alcohol is illegal in many Muslim countries.

 

The young man's sister is really a great example for her - she is cherished and loved, protected and never controlled; she is educated and expected to make great things for her life - just as the boys. For whatever reason, though she sees this very frequently, she is still allowing him to use the culture excuse... despite the rest of his family acting opposite him. His father, older brother, and sister are all well adjusted, kind, successful people - I've never felt uneasy around them, depsite the language barrier at times, lol. I so wish she would look closer at them and realize that his faith isn't an excuse - these other people practice the same faith and manage not be abusive or controlling.

 

She isn't close enough for me to stay "close to her" as others have suggested. She lives hours away. The saving grace is that my mother is currently watching their son, daily, and homeschooling him for pre-k, so she's able to keep an eye on them from that corner.

 

Because others have mentioned it again, and because I know it can be a pain to read all previous replies (goodness knows I rarely do in long threads), I want to clarify again that going to CPS isn't an option - nobody is being physically abused and the child is never neglected (as of yet). I do plan to bring the child up when I talk to her - that he is going to one day emulate the male role model closest to him should be concern enough, in my book.

 

[AimeeM]

She would die if she were to get pregnant again and carry the pregnancy. Her heart isn't strong and she's been warned numerous times to not get pregnant again. I am scared about that as well. Blessedly, the young man seems quite content with her son only and doesn't appear to want more children. That I'm aware of.

I have not read all of the responses, but I want to chime in with a couple of thoughts.  First, at that age (at many ages), the longing for someone to love can be all-consuming.  It is easy to forget that when you are happily married and so removed from that stage of life, but I wholeheartedly agree with another poster who said that the best thing that could happen to her is for her to meet another man: a cute, nice guy.  I know that's going to be hard, maybe impossible to arrange, but she is 22 with a baby and probably thinks nice guys her age aren't going to be interested in her.  That may be true--I don't know, but it is easy to think that if you're not 22 and married that you're going to die a lonely old maid.  We all know that's ludicrous because we are older and more mature, but that doesn't change the way it may appear to her:  that this is her only chance to not be lonely (and possibly poor and lonely) forever.

 

Second, I agre with the others that regardless of what you say, you have to say something.  And it has to be forceful.  You can't let her look at you all in a couple of years when her life is in ruins and say, "Why didn't you warn me?  How could you let me ruin my life and stand idly by?"  Even if she doesn't listen to you, which she probably won't, you have to say something.

 

Third, do whatever it takes to stay in her life.  Suck up to the jerk if need be; pay for stuff; babysit her child; whatever it takes, try to stay in her life so it is as easy as possible for her to leave.  And for heaven's sakes, encourage her not to get pregnant.  Sneak birth control pills to her if necessary.  'Cause the only thing worse than being married to someone like this would be having a child with him.

 

[AimeeM]

There's nothing to report to social services. He isn't physically abusive with either (mother or child) and the child is doted on entirely - he isn't neglected at all. My concern for the child is more theoretical - eventually he will believe this is the way men treat women (controlling, etc)... but there really isn't anything illegal going on that I'm aware of. Taking her debit card? Sure, assuming she reports it, but it isn't something CPS will get involved with over; my sister has always been able to gain what is needed for herself and her child, regardless of a missing debit card (she lives close to my mother and other sister).

He's controlling. We see the signs. We worry it could become more... but at the moment, he's riding that line that isn't even totally abusive unless she were to tell someone about it.

 

In other words, he hasn't yet done anything he could get into legal trouble for. KWIM?

Honestly, you can't say anything she will listen to. If it were me I would tell her you love her and want the best for her and want her happy, but you have some concerns about her relationship and wish she would pull away for just a bit to think about things and if you are wrong later on you will gladly admit it but could she please hear you out and get away for a bit and then decide about this man?

 

My experience is women don't want to hear it.  It's a personality thing with some people that they stick with the worst men and will throw anyone around them under the bus to keep that relationship going instead of walking away.  I had a dear friend who got involved with a man who was sleeping with his best friend's girlfriend.  We worked with her.  I saw them together at this girl's house.  I told my friend.  She cut me off saying I was trying to ruin the relationship.  I was right.  Five years later he never did marry her and she finally wised up and left.  But it took him leaving her at the alter in vegas with friends and HIS mother.  She had been living with his mom while he was screwing around with how many others.  I felt badly for her but in hindsight she was the one who called boys until they finally talked to her.  She was the one who were drove to see if a guy was at a friends house at 2am and then she begged me to take her car and leave her there with him when she found him.  She's the one who cut everyone off anytime a boy showed her any interest.  She's still single.  Still gets into the worst relationships.  And honestly, she was pretty, smart, and determined.  She wanted a husband and children.  But that gullible/obsessive personality never let her embrace the good guys....she always went to the bad ones.  

 

it's too bad you as a family can't all go in, tell him you all think he's trash and take your sister/kid away.  If she's put up with it so far, she's probably going to go through a lot worse before considering it's bad for her :-(  My only other thought is reporting the situation to social services to try and get the child out of it.  

 

[Joanne]

... but at the moment, he's riding that line that isn't even totally abusive unless she were to tell someone about it.

 

 

 

 

Just to offer a point of clarification - he IS abusive. Period.

 

It's just not the type of abuse that you can call 911 about. And that, unfortunately, feeds into perpetuating the abuse dynamic and denial.

 

I'm so sorry and my heart breaks for her.

[AimeeM]

I would tell her that I love her.  That she's my baby sister.  That I would walk through fire for her and for her child.  I would do anything I could to help, day or night.  No matter what.  And then leave it at that.

 

Any possibility that your father could have a talk with his father?  Here that is unheard of and not within boundaries.  Other cultures don't view it as such.  

 

First I'll say that I love my father. Adore him. He's a kind and generous man and a great father.

 

... but, he's also very non-confrontational. Yes, I'm afraid, even where this is concerned.

 

If it isn't considered completely unheard of, though, my husband would be more than happy to speak to his father. Tony (dh) has already said he'd like to speak to the young man. I'm not sure if it matters, but my husband is old enough to my sister's father, lol. This sister is my baby sister by many years - youngest of the bunch.

 

 

 

This just isn't normal and I don't want her to think that it is.

[AimeeM]

Just to offer a point of clarification - he IS abusive. Period.

 

It's just not the type of abuse that you can call 911 about. And that, unfortunately, feeds into perpetuating the abuse dynamic and denial.

 

I'm so sorry and my heart breaks for her.

 

I'm sorry - you're right. I just mean that this is the type of abuse that, frankly, even if she were to tell an authority about, nothing would be done. It isn't an illegal type of abuse, that I'm aware of.

[Tess in the Burbs]

I don't think anyone could help.  My SIL called me 2 days after she was married asking if I was allowed to see the checking account balance.  Um, yes, I pay all the bills.  Apparently her husband passed on the money she could have for groceries and such.  And she was verifying how others did it.  Obviously nothing changed b/c she started her own hair place and that is the only money she has freedom to use as she wishes.  She solved her problem. 

 

I feel for your sister.  The impossible part is she doesn't see a problem.  Could she and her son come visit for a week?  Without him.  To see how you live day in and day out?  To show respect?  Have friends over as well for dinner and let her see other relationships.  I don't care about his culture....it's America.  But if she isn't willing to stand up to him I don't think there is anything you can say/do to help.  

 

I dated a guy from Lebanon long ago and he creeped me out....begged me to go visit his country and meet his family.  I felt nothing but creepiness how it was such a new relationship....no way I was going to his country!!  

 

Good luck.  I really think getting her away for a bit would help her see normal in America

[AimeeM]

I don't think anyone could help.  My SIL called me 2 days after she was married asking if I was allowed to see the checking account balance.  Um, yes, I pay all the bills.  Apparently her husband passed on the money she could have for groceries and such.  And she was verifying how others did it.  Obviously nothing changed b/c she started her own hair place and that is the only money she has freedom to use as she wishes.  She solved her problem. 

 

I feel for your sister.  The impossible part is she doesn't see a problem.  Could she and her son come visit for a week?  Without him.  To see how you live day in and day out?  To show respect?  Have friends over as well for dinner and let her see other relationships.  I don't care about his culture....it's America.  But if she isn't willing to stand up to him I don't think there is anything you can say/do to help.  

 

I dated a guy from Lebanon long ago and he creeped me out....begged me to go visit his country and meet his family.  I felt nothing but creepiness how it was such a new relationship....no way I was going to his country!!  

 

Good luck.  I really think getting her away for a bit would help her see normal in America

I've been trying to get her and my nephew down for a visit for a very long time. From what I understand, that would be next to impossible now, considering the young man doesn't want her doing anything without him when she isn't working.

 

*sigh* She grew up with normal in America. She CAN'T think this is normal. I can't imagine how she could, any way.

[Alessandra]

Good list.

 

This link may help, also:

 

http://cmhc.utexas.edu/pdf/PowerControlwheel.pdf

 

 

Just to offer a point of clarification - he IS abusive. Period.

 

It's just not the type of abuse that you can call 911 about. And that, unfortunately, feeds into perpetuating the abuse dynamic and denial.

 

I'm so sorry and my heart breaks for her.

 

Joanne's link to has a great/scary abuse chart. Not 911 stuff, but definitely abusive and, in all likelihood, a precursor to more abuse. Maybe you could get your sister to look at it? Would she be able to take a copy home and hide it?

[celticmom]

If your sister was provided with a prepaid cell phone and debit card like you can buy at walmart could she(and WOULD she) keep them hidden in case she needs them?

[AimeeM]

If your sister was provided with a prepaid cell phone and debit card like you can buy at walmart could she(and WOULD she) keep them hidden in case she needs them?

 

I doubt it. She doesn't really *need* the debit card, as my mother only lives a few miles from her, as does my other sister, and she has called them before when needed (and they immediately help). The cell phone is a concern, but I'm not sure she would keep it hidden. There's no harm in giving it to her though.

[Reflections]

First I'll say that I love my father. Adore him. He's a kind and generous man and a great father.

 

... but, he's also very non-confrontational. Yes, I'm afraid, even where this is concerned.

 

If it isn't considered completely unheard of, though, my husband would be more than happy to speak to his father. Tony (dh) has already said he'd like to speak to the young man. I'm not sure if it matters, but my husband is old enough to my sister's father, lol. This sister is my baby sister by many years - youngest of the bunch.

 

 

 

This just isn't normal and I don't want her to think that it is.

 

No it's not normal.  ((hugs))

 

I think that in this case where your dh is much older than it should be alright.  Look, imo, some people and some cultures respond better when there is an older MALE figure in the picture who is looking out for a woman's interest.  I know that is not a popular idea nor is it an idea that American's like to discuss but it is what it is.  

 

And for the record, I'm talking  about a non confrontational discussion.  

[AimeeM]

No it's not normal.  ((hugs))

 

I think that in this case where your dh is much older than it should be alright.  Look, imo, some people and some cultures respond better when there is an older MALE figure in the picture who is looking out for a woman's interest.  I know that is not a popular idea nor is it an idea that American's like to discuss but it is what it is.  

 

And for the record, I'm talking  about a non confrontational discussion.  

 

My concern is that my husband wouldn't necessarily be non-confrontational with the young man. He has his own... cultural standards (loud, philly born and raised italian). He has heard nothing but good things about the young man's dad, though, so I know he would non-confrontational there. In DH's culture/upbringing as well, there was often a male looking out for the female, so I think that's why he didn't hesitate to offer himself up for this.

 

When I say that my own father is non-confrontational... I mean that I doubt he would ever get involved, frankly. He would provide support (emotional, financial), but I don't think he would actively get involved.

 

[AimeeM]

Quick question - not meant to be insensitive at all.

What are the chances that this young man sincerely IS doing what is done "back home"? Keeping in mind that he (and his family) have only been here a few years and this is his first serious relationship? He didn't see a marriage growing up - his mother left the family when he was still a small child. His father raised him, his older brother, and his sister, with the help of a grandmother. There is still a language barrier with him. So, as wonderful as his father is, the young man's only source of how boy/girl relationships work will have been from others in Iraq/the area, growing up.

 

No excuses - it's wrong. Just wondering. I don't want my sister involved, regardless - I guess I'm just wondering if I need to possibly approach this less as "he's bad - you need to leave", and more as "he just isn't leaving his culture behind enough for this to be a healthy situation for you and Nephew".

[LMD]

There is no reason to take the child, legally. He isn't physically abusive and the boy is actually very doted upon. It isn't a threat I could back up.

I agree, legally it's the same here. In fact, police had been involved numerous times already. No mention of the kids being taken away (afaik). I'm not sure of what specifically my aunt intended to do, which is Why i was careful to say that she chose her moment carefully. It's a tough situation for sure...

[MollyAnn]

If I am reading correctly, your sister is 22, has a son from a different relationship, and has been told not to have any more kids, this man is fine with her son being the only child they have.

 

She may be accepting his treatment of her because she believes this is her only chance at a family. She may be wondering what other man would want to raise someone else's child and not have any of his own. (Just to clarify I do not think this way. I know there are many wonderful men out there where this situation would not faze them.)

If that is her state of mind, you are going to have to go beyond pointing out the abuse.

[AimeeM]

If I am reading correctly, your sister is 22, has a son from a different relationship, and has been told not to have any more kids, this man is fine with her son being the only child they have.

 

She may be accepting his treatment of her because she believes this is her only chance at a family. She may be wondering what other man would want to raise someone else's child and not have any of his own. (Just to clarify I do not think this way. I know there are many wonderful men out there where this situation would not faze them.)

If that is her state of mind, you are going to have to go beyond pointing out the abuse.

 

Correct. She has a 4 year old son. Shortly after giving birth, she went into cardiac failure and a serious heart condition was discovered. Later, some secondary issues popped up. She cannot safely carry children.

I do believe that she feels as you stated - and I also know that she is reeling because she always wanted children (plural) and this has been a difficult blow for her - initially they thought she could very carefully carry other children, but she was semi-recently told that this isn't an option because of the secondary heart problems.

Her son's father isn't involved, which lends to why the young man has taken so quickly to her son.

 

I'll admit to being a bit confused and part of me wonders what the hades is going on. For a spousal abuser, he is sincerely fantastic with children and absolutely adores Nephew - coaching the soccer team, is affectionate with him, is patient in a way that cannot be faked, etc... really, with all the children. It surprised me when I was told that he was treating Sister like this - I didn't see it coming and I feel pretty foolish (and angry) with myself.

 

[Joanne]

I have like 2 minutes. But abusers are often charming, seemingly engaged parents and family members and are often devout.

[AimeeM]

I have like 2 minutes. But abusers are often charming, seemingly engaged parents and family members and are often devout.

 

I don't doubt you at all. I was just completely floored. Frankly, we all were (myself, other sister, and my mother).

[LMD]

There is no reason to take the child, legally. He isn't physically abusive and the boy is actually very doted upon. It isn't a threat I could back up.

I agree, legally it's the same here. In fact, police had been involved numerous times already. No mention of the kids being taken away (afaik). I'm not sure of what specifically my aunt intended to do, which is Why i was careful to say that she chose her moment carefully. It's a tough situation for sure...

[Roadrunner]

Abuse is abuse. His culture is irrelevant.

[bettyandbob]

This isn't about culture. It isn't about the country he's from. It isn't about being Muslim. Those things might be excuses and I could probably find Iraqi families and Muslim families who would be insulted to be associated with such behavior.

 

This is just abuse. It doesn't matter what the guy calls it.

[LizzyBee]

Correct. She has a 4 year old son. Shortly after giving birth, she went into cardiac failure and a serious heart condition was discovered. Later, some secondary issues popped up. She cannot safely carry children.

I do believe that she feels as you stated - and I also know that she is reeling because she always wanted children (plural) and this has been a difficult blow for her - initially they thought she could very carefully carry other children, but she was semi-recently told that this isn't an option because of the secondary heart problems.

Her son's father isn't involved, which lends to why the young man has taken so quickly to her son.

 

I'll admit to being a bit confused and part of me wonders what the hades is going on. For a spousal abuser, he is sincerely fantastic with children and absolutely adores Nephew - coaching the soccer team, is affectionate with him, is patient in a way that cannot be faked, etc... really, with all the children. It surprised me when I was told that he was treating Sister like this - I didn't see it coming and I feel pretty foolish (and angry) with myself.

 

 

Sometimes abusers treat the child/ren well to attract the mom, but once they're married, they treat the child/ren just as badly as they treat the mom.