A question of ethics

[*anj*]

Scenario:

 

A couple of SAHMs run a small food co-op that provides farm fresh food. The farmers in question are Amish and Conservative Mennonite and so much of the accounting and order taking is done by hand.

 

More often than not the women find errors in one of the invoices. The women tell the farmers that they were undercharged, and pay the bill with the errors corrected. The farmers are grateful, but the same thing continues to happen. If not for the fact that the women go over the bill with a fine toothed comb, the farmers would have lost a fair amount of money over time.

 

The food co-op is really a much bigger job than the women expected, and they begin to grow weary of it. They are happy to get the good quality food and to help others to do likewise, but it takes a lot out of them. They realize that this last aspect, poring over the invoices, adds a couple of hours to an already long day.

 

Here's the question: Is it really necessary to find every little error? A $300 error, yes. But would it be morally, ethically wrong to just accept the invoice as received, and pay it without checking for errors? Does it all sort of even out in the end? Are "middle people" responsible for making corrections?

 

The women really, really want to do the right thing. The reason they've continued to check the math for this long is that they feel bound to treat the farmer justly. But is there a point at which the farmer needs to just be responsible for his own livelihood?

 

Be gentle, please. This has been a long and exhausting day. :001_smile:

[Tarheel Heather]

It's late..

[percytruffle]

But is there a point at which the farmer needs to just be responsible for his own livelihood?

 

 

 

Yes. I think they are enabling the farmers to continue to be lax in their bookeeping. It is a difficult situation though. How can someone turn the other way when they know there has been a pattern in the past? Perhaps they need to give the farmers an ultimatum: either you go over your billing more carefully or you risk losing money. Put the ball back in their court where it belongs.

[Laura in VA]

:iagree:

 

Knowing there have been errors in the past, I just wouldn't feel right about not checking. And, the farmers were over-charging I think everyone would be checking over each invoice. :)

[Amy in Orlando]

Have they talked to the farmers? Have they explained how they are spending a lot of time catching mistakes? I would think the farmers would be grateful to know 1) how honest these women are and 2) that they need to be a little more careful on their end.

[WTMindy]

They have prooved themselves to be honest people. If the farmer continues to make mistrakes, I think it is really his own problem. Maybe they can tell the farmer that they will no longer be going over the bills so carefully, so to make sure that he is careful in how much he charges.

[Laura in VA]

;)

 

Sorry, but I couldn't resist!

[*anj*]

Would the small errors not add up as much as finding one large one? I would think over time regardless of the amount it is still an error.

 

But that's just me.

 

Well, yes, they could.

For instance there have been times when we found that they charged us (let's say) $2 too much for something, but then we find elsewhere that they undercharged themselves $1.75 due to a mathematical error. In that case we call it a wash. We don't quibble over small change. But I guess the question is "Who is ultimately responsible?"

 

Hard stuff...

[Amy in Orlando]

Well, yes, they could.

For instance there have been times when we found that they charged us (let's say) $2 too much for something, but then we find elsewhere that they undercharged themselves $1.75 due to a mathematical error. In that case we call it a wash. We don't quibble over small change. But I guess the question is "Who is ultimately responsible?"

 

Hard stuff...

 

Ultimately, they are responsible. I know in our family business if we make a mistake in billing, we have to suck it up. They have chosen to eschew calculators and computers and even just careful double-checking, so the problem is theirs, ultimately.

[*anj*]

Have they talked to the farmers? Have they explained how they are spending a lot of time catching mistakes? I would think the farmers would be grateful to know 1) how honest these women are and 2) that they need to be a little more careful on their end.

 

Yes, and yes.

They are very, very grateful. But the farmer doesn't do the math himself. His wife or sister do the math. And it almost feels mean to keep telling him that his wife's math skills aren't the best, you know? What else can she do? She can't use a calculator, you know? :001_huh:

[*anj*]

;)

 

Sorry, but I couldn't resist!

 

Believe me, we've said that ourselves several times! :001_smile:

[percytruffle]

:iagree:

[Amy in Orlando]

Yes, and yes.

They are very, very grateful. But the farmer doesn't do the math himself. His wife or sister do the math. And it almost feels mean to keep telling him that his wife's math skills aren't the best, you know? What else can she do? She can't use a calculator, you know? :001_huh:

 

I DO understand how you feel. Can someone in your group offer to tutor her in basic bookkeeping skills? Maybe a barter thing? And, it's NOT mean to keep telling him the invoices are wrong - you're helping him better provide for his family if he can get it all together.

[*anj*]

Yes. I think they are enabling the farmers to continue to be lax in their bookeeping. It is a difficult situation though. How can someone turn the other way when they know there has been a pattern in the past? Perhaps they need to give the farmers an ultimatum: either you go over your billing more carefully or you risk losing money. Put the ball back in their court where it belongs.

 

Exactly. And you're right...the ball does belong in their court. And the farmer whose bills are most often wrong has been told that if our bill is wrong, what about his other customers? We've gone out of our way to be honest and fair, but what about other people? He might be losing thousands of dollars.

 

:iagree:

 

Knowing there have been errors in the past, I just wouldn't feel right about not checking. And, the farmers were over-charging I think everyone would be checking over each invoice. :)

 

I know what you mean. I don't know how we'd stop checking either. We'd want to make sure we weren't overpaying, you know?

 

They have proved themselves to be honest people. If the farmer continues to make mistakes, I think it is really his own problem. Maybe they can tell the farmer that they will no longer be going over the bills so carefully, so to make sure that he is careful in how much he charges.

Yes, I think that fair warning should apply. But again, we'd be concerned about overpaying, so we will probably want to keep checking the bill.

[percytruffle]

I DO understand how you feel. Can someone in your group offer to tutor her in basic bookkeeping skills? Maybe a barter thing? And, it's NOT mean to keep telling him the invoices are wrong - you're helping him better provide for his family if he can get it all together.

 

Yes, remember the old saying: Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach him to fish, feed him for a lifetime. They are allowing him to become dependent on their goodness. Everyone he encounters will not treat him as fairly or gently.

[Elaine]

Yes. I think they are enabling the farmers to continue to be lax in their bookeeping. It is a difficult situation though. How can someone turn the other way when they know there has been a pattern in the past? Perhaps they need to give the farmers an ultimatum: either you go over your billing more carefully or you risk losing money. Put the ball back in their court where it belongs.

 

I am gently agreeing with this.;)

[*anj*]

I DO understand how you feel. Can someone in your group offer to tutor her in basic bookkeeping skills? Maybe a barter thing? And, it's NOT mean to keep telling him the invoices are wrong - you're helping him better provide for his family if he can get it all together.

True. And I don't know, but I'd suspect she's got a few children running around underfoot while she's doing this. So you know how that is... :glare:

 

Yes, remember the old saying: Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach him to fish, feed him for a lifetime. They are allowing him to become dependent on their goodness. Everyone he encounters will not treat him as fairly or gently.

Very true. And I've heard a couple of things from people who would know...let's just say that most people are not this concerned with the farmer's best interest, you know?

 

Thanks, everyone! I knew you guys could help me think through this whole thing. :001_smile:

[Amy in Orlando]

Please let us know how it all works out, Anj.

[percytruffle]

Yes, do. It's a ver difficult situation that was easy for us to hash out on paper (or screens), but in practice there will be so many gray areas in carrying it out. It tugs at the heart. Sometimes the hardest lessons we teach others for their benefit are really hardest on us as well. But, we can't "mother" the whole world.

[*anj*]

Sometimes the hardest lessons we teach others for their benefit are really hardest on us as well. But, we can't "mother" the whole world.

 

Wow, that might be my new sig line.

You're right. He's a grown man. Maybe we'll try one more very serious discussion.

I'll let ya'll know how it works out. :001_smile:

[MicheleB]

I wanted to respond because I have been having this issue here lately as well! We live in an area with a large conservative Mennonite community.

 

This past week I've had two instances of this type of thing you are describing:

 

One was at a fruit/veggie stand run by friends of mine, *not* conservative Mennonite, but co-run the stand with some Conserv. Mennonites. The boy at the stand the day I was there was probably about 11 or 12?? My order was $12.50 and I gave him $15. He gave me back $20 in change!!!! I told him that he gave me back way too much money, and he then handed me $15 in change (the $15 I had just given him!). I finally took my change and gave him back the rest.

 

Today at the conservative Mennonite country store I purchased some things, and a woman of about 19 (using a cash register) rang up my order. I got back something like $5.48. She struggled to count out the .48cents in change.

 

I think part of it is their education (you know, only up to 8th grade) and also for the women, it's just not that highly valued. I've seen Amish use calculators... maybe this woman just doesn't know *how* to use one. KWIM?

 

Ultimately, I think it's their responsibility to bill correctly. But as you said, since you're worried about being over-charged you almost have to check every invoice anyway.

[percytruffle]

Although I think it would be perfectly reasonable to do as many have suggested and save yourselves all the extra stress and effort, my instinctive response is very different.

 

I think it is actually unreasonable to do it merely to save extra effort/stress if those were the only reasons, but there is the bigger picture here of ensuring that the farmer learns to care for his own needs. Sometimes love and empathy and doing the right thing do not look like love on the surface.

 

I believe that giving the farmer fair warning would cover my obligation to do right by him, but that it would not cover my obligation to myself. I, personally, would feel I was wronging *myself* by accepting the invoices without continuing to carefully check them, that I was, in a very small way, damaging myself and taking one teensy tiny step away from the path I wish to follow by benefiting, however minor-ly and with however much fair warning from another's calculation errors.

 

You are focusing on your actions and their appearance which is truly admirable, but I want to also think about how it could ultimately benefit the farmer. One way he benefits in the short term, the other he may benefit in the long term. For instance, I could continue to tie my toddler's shoes when he wines and cries and fusses that he can't do it. We would not be late. I would benefit. But, if I let him work through it and maybe even miss a chance to go for ice cream because we run out of time waiting for him, he will have more incentive to learn and grow and do for himself what he should be capable of doing. Enabling is hurting, not helping.

 

 

...but I feel this because I know my own heart and soul. I think the deciding factor in such a case is one's own deepest instincts.... so ymmv may vary widely from mine! :)

 

Those of us who responded have the same "deepest instincts" to do the right thing. We are not trying to be cruel or to take advantage. The difference is in the path we think will benefit the farmer more in the long run. I think the best choice happens to also be the one that does not put undue burden on the other party. They should be working together as a team. One should not have to carry the other.

 

ETA: I hope this didn't come across as snarky in any way, Eliana. I am kind of wired on caffeine from pain meds and probably didn't temper my words as well as I ordinarily try to. FWIW, eventually I would probably have to stop doing business with him if he would not find his own errors and I was too burdened to keep doing so for him. It is hard to do the right thing, but it is always worth it. Too bad it can be so tough to figure out what that right thing is. The world isn't as black and white as we would hope for.

 

Blessings,

Lisa

[girligirlmom]

Frustrating isn't it? :willy_nilly:

 

If the farmer consistently overcharged, then the co-op owners would check so they do not overpay. If they overpay, it would come out of their pocket.

 

I'm guessing the co-op owners are going to have to check anyway so they do not overpay, which I'm sure is sometimes the case since sometimes they probably make a mistake too (like maybe today?). This means that the checking is really not undue effort, since they would do it to benefit themselves or technically protect themselves from paying too much. They are going to check anyway, although you might think they shouldn't have to.

 

Some people accept their grocery receipt as is, others check it for accuracy. I once found I was undercharged by two cases of a product. I was charged for eaches instead of the two cases. I went back to the store to explain since I, in good conscience, could not keep the extra $24. They decided to only charge me $12 more and only since I insisted. At that point I felt I had met my obligation and if they chose to let me keep $12 so be it.

 

What happens when the co-op owners find an error which puts the bill too high in the farmer's favor when it should not be that high? Surely they adjust the amount they send so they do not overpay the farmer. Maybe for $1 they don't mind but probably they don't want to pay an extra $5 or $10 or $50 or $300. So they deduct the amount in error and pay what they owe. Fair enough.

 

What happens when they find an error in their favor? If they know they were undercharged, how much "extra" do they keep? Do they keep the extra $1 dollar? Maybe since that might be considered a basic accounting principle - anything under a dollar just round up.

 

What about $2? $5? $20? $50? $300? (I'm sure this has happened)

 

I would venture to guess that the conscience of the co-op owners would bother them if they kept too much or what they did not consider fair. They might say that for the extra effort involved in researching this farmers bill, they are going to keep a credit of say $1 - $5 if they find it in their favor. Or should they?

 

I think the $1 is reasonable, but keeping more than that seems like the farmer is being cheated or that it would be stealing. Again, it might depend upon how much the co-op owners would be willing to overpay in error since the error could be in either direction.

 

If I know, then my conscience (the Holy Spirit) would prompt me to do the right thing even if it takes more effort.

[percytruffle]

...but it is an area in which *for me* it is important that I be machmir (stringent above and beyond what is 'required').... some things I can rephrase in the positive... there are some mitzvos that I feel called to 'adorn' (hiddur mitzvah), for my own spiritual growth and joy, again out of knowledge of myself/my family.

 

We could certainly all use more of that :)

 

 

 

Not snarky at all, honey! I wish you speedy healing - I am fuzzy-brained with pain right now, and probably should stay as far from a keyboard as I should from heavy machinery or life-altering decisions.

 

:grouphug: Thank you for, as always, being gentle with me even when I express myself so ineptly!

 

You are anything but inept, Eliana. Your words always make me think more deeply. I value that very much.

 

I don't think I should be using any heavy machinery or keyboards tonight either.

 

Peace to you.

[Haiku]

Were it me, I would simply inform the farmer(s) that I have been checking the invoices and finding errors, but that the checking is too time-consuming and henceforth I will be paying the invoice as it is received.

 

Tara

[PariSarah]

Can they require more help from co-op participants? Or would administering a bunch of volunteers be as much work as just doing it themselves?

 

I think checking over the invoices is just part of the job. The fact that the farmer tends to make mistakes makes it a more important part of the job than it should be, in an ideal world, but a certain level of care with the invoices would be required whether or not the farmer's (wife's) math were frequently off.

 

They're already taking the harder, higher road by doing the co-op at all, huh? I mean, the "easy" thing would be to go to the darn grocery store like everybody else. So I already admire their willingness to make work for themselves by doing this. But I would tend to say that checking the invoices carefully is just one of the things you have to do when you run a co-op like this. It's like balancing your checkbook and looking over your accountant's job on the taxes and making sure your escrow covers your property taxes and all that. (Until my sister started doing my taxes, I used to find errors every time a professional did my taxes. Every stinkin' time.) It's a hassle, nobody likes it, but you can't get around it.

 

But it sounds like it's less about the math problem than about the cumulative hassle of doing the whole thing. Getting help might be the best thing--requiring each participant to help out with one order a year, or whatever time frame makes the most sense, divvying up the order or checking the math or whatever.

[Tammyla]

:iagree:

 

Can they require more help from co-op participants? Or would administering a bunch of volunteers be as much work as just doing it themselves?

 

I think checking over the invoices is just part of the job. The fact that the farmer tends to make mistakes makes it a more important part of the job than it should be, in an ideal world, but a certain level of care with the invoices would be required whether or not the farmer's (wife's) math were frequently off.

 

They're already taking the harder, higher road by doing the co-op at all, huh? I mean, the "easy" thing would be to go to the darn grocery store like everybody else. So I already admire their willingness to make work for themselves by doing this. But I would tend to say that checking the invoices carefully is just one of the things you have to do when you run a co-op like this. It's like balancing your checkbook and looking over your accountant's job on the taxes and making sure your escrow covers your property taxes and all that. (Until my sister started doing my taxes, I used to find errors every time a professional did my taxes. Every stinkin' time.) It's a hassle, nobody likes it, but you can't get around it.

 

But it sounds like it's less about the math problem than about the cumulative hassle of doing the whole thing. Getting help might be the best thing--requiring each participant to help out with one order a year, or whatever time frame makes the most sense, divvying up the order or checking the math or whatever.

[Heather in the Kootenays]

:iagree: that it sounds like more than a billing issue.

 

Are your invoice checkers burning out on the work and responsibility?

[DB in NJ]

A few things...

 

1. I'm not sure what I'd do (aren't I helpful?!). I'm glad the farmer has been told, and it seems like they are trusting the ladies to just pay them what they're owed.

 

2. It's bad business practice to consistently send out incorrect invoices, whether you're Amish, mennonite, or martian. It's just not a good idea.

 

3. It's not the consumer's job to babysit the producer. As someone else said, we can't mother the whole world.

 

4. If they were overcharging, would the ladies be doing the same thing with the invoices? Probably, huh?

 

5. I'm REALLY glad you used "pored" correctly! So many people say they spent the day "pouring over the kids' new school books" etc. I always wonder why they would pour something on perfectly good, new books... ;)

 

6. As I'm typing I've come to the conclusion that I would go to the farmer and ask HIM to decide what should be done. Should we continue to do this, because if we don't, you'll be losing money!

 

:grouphug:

[Scuff]

I would let the farmer know you want to be fair to them, but don't have the time to check the invoices anymore and will just be paying what they charge. Then do it. If there's a serious error that's obvious, tally that reciept and fix the error, otherwise, don't. That's what I'd do anyway. I feel morally obligated to pay fairly, but not to be accounts recievable (if that's the right term) for free. That's his job. But I would let him know, so it's all out in the open and he can pay attention more if he wishes.

 

ETA: Another option, ifyou're concerned about overpaying, is to let each individual buying within your coop check their own reciepts. Just let the farmers and eache customer know you won't be doing it anymore. Then they can check if it's right. I always check my reciepts from people. And even skim over reciepts from the grocery store. I would be double checking to make sure you did it right too lol. So, they can do that themselves.

[Scuff]

Yes, and yes.

They are very, very grateful. But the farmer doesn't do the math himself. His wife or sister do the math. And it almost feels mean to keep telling him that his wife's math skills aren't the best, you know? What else can she do? She can't use a calculator, you know? :001_huh:

 

I didn't use a calculator even through Algebra. We didn't have a lot of money and I wasn't very good at keep track of my things, so I did without. I didn't use a calculator until a graphing calculator was required. It took longer, yes. But it can be done.

[Jennifer3141]

I think the women have been more than fair. It's time for the farmer to step up a little.

 

Jen

[HollyinNNV]

This has been quite an interesting thread! I have been following it because I have a kind of similar situation.

 

I guess I am sort of imagining the farmer counting the crop quickly, haphazardly (possibly) and ultimately incorrectly. I can picture it in my mind. Then I picture the co-op leaders slowly, carefully counting the crop. Then they spend time comparing the farmer's invoice and what they actually count. Then they adjust their books. Then they have to send extra correspondence with the farmer to sort out the difference. (I'm kind of guessing here.) I guess my immediate assumption is that there is more time involved in sorting out the error than in quickly/incorrectly counting the product at the beginning.

 

If this were a big business, I wonder if the farmer would be charged a fee for their mistake to pay the receiving company for their time in sorting out the error? If you look at time as money, it is the co-op owner that is being wronged by the farmer, IMHO.:001_huh:

 

The similar situation that I deal with actually involves late co-op homework. At first, it seems like receiving late work would be no big deal. But, it actually is a problem. First, I have to find out where the work belongs in the gradebook-which week. Then, if it is not obvious, I have to remember how I graded that particular assignment. Then, I have to grade it. When you grade lots of similar assignments, you get quicker as you go. But, because this is the first and only, it is slow. Then I have to return it. Let's say I have 12 students and they all turn in two assignments late-I have to go through this procedure 24 times.:tongue_smilie:

 

It was fun reading the responses to this thread because I found myself agreeing with both PercyTruffle and Eliana, who came to opposite conclusions.:D

 

Holly

[Cheryl in NM]

It's the farmer's responsiblity to bill correctly, but the proper bookkeeping practices of the co-op are to check the invoices to make sure they are being billed correctly. The co-op has a legal responsibility to make sure they are being fiscally responsible with the member's money. That being the case, if it is just too time-consuming to deal with the invoices I would petition the co-op to find another farmer. The co-op needs to make sure they are getting what they pay for; no more and no less.

 

Sorry for all the "responsible"s! I must be in a mood!:)

[Scuff]

Frustrating isn't it? :willy_nilly:

 

If the farmer consistently overcharged, then the co-op owners would check so they do not overpay. If they overpay, it would come out of their pocket.

 

I'm guessing the co-op owners are going to have to check anyway so they do not overpay, which I'm sure is sometimes the case since sometimes they probably make a mistake too (like maybe today?). This means that the checking is really not undue effort, since they would do it to benefit themselves or technically protect themselves from paying too much. They are going to check anyway, although you might think they shouldn't have to.

 

Some people accept their grocery receipt as is, others check it for accuracy. I once found I was undercharged by two cases of a product. I was charged for eaches instead of the two cases. I went back to the store to explain since I, in good conscience, could not keep the extra $24. They decided to only charge me $12 more and only since I insisted. At that point I felt I had met my obligation and if they chose to let me keep $12 so be it.

 

What happens when the co-op owners find an error which puts the bill too high in the farmer's favor when it should not be that high? Surely they adjust the amount they send so they do not overpay the farmer. Maybe for $1 they don't mind but probably they don't want to pay an extra $5 or $10 or $50 or $300. So they deduct the amount in error and pay what they owe. Fair enough.

 

What happens when they find an error in their favor? If they know they were undercharged, how much "extra" do they keep? Do they keep the extra $1 dollar? Maybe since that might be considered a basic accounting principle - anything under a dollar just round up.

 

What about $2? $5? $20? $50? $300? (I'm sure this has happened)

 

I would venture to guess that the conscience of the co-op owners would bother them if they kept too much or what they did not consider fair. They might say that for the extra effort involved in researching this farmers bill, they are going to keep a credit of say $1 - $5 if they find it in their favor. Or should they?

 

I think the $1 is reasonable, but keeping more than that seems like the farmer is being cheated or that it would be stealing. Again, it might depend upon how much the co-op owners would be willing to overpay in error since the error could be in either direction.

 

If I know, then my conscience (the Holy Spirit) would prompt me to do the right thing even if it takes more effort.

 

This is what I get for reading the thread after i post. Sorry for all the multiple posts. :)

 

I would correct every found mistake. And I probably couldn't help myself from looking and would definately look at my personal reciept. But after talking with the farmer and the coop customers, I wouldn't feel obligated to continue checking each and every reciept. I do like the idea of offering tutoring to the wife.