Should we switch from MEP to Singapore?

[Katydid]

I have a 4th grader and a 2nd grader and we have only ever used MEP math. The kids and I all really like it, but I'm starting to doubt the process. We have been plugging away, but the 4th grader is only just finishing 3a and, looking ahead, I can tell that he could be working at a higher level if I only knew how to skip ahead without missing important instructional materials.

 

So I love the puzzle-like problems and variety of MEP, but I wish the teaching materials weren't so hard to wade through to find how to teach specific topics. And I dislike how the pages print: since they are designed to go on A4 paper, they have to be shrunk down to fit, which is an issue for the measurement problems. And the British money problems can be annoying since we don't have £2 coins, etc. And printing out all the copymasters when I only end up using a few is a waste of ink/paper, but going through and only printing the ones I think I'll need is a waste of time. And I don't really like not knowing where the lessons are headed without reading ahead in all the lessons. Basically, with MEP I just feel like I'm flailing around and, especially as we begin to tackle harder concepts, I need to feel more grounded in where we are headed.

 

So I'm looking for a conceptual math program with clear teaching lessons laid out in a logical progression that include a variety of interesting, puzzle-like problems. One that has plenty of pracitice but not just sheets of similar problems. One that follows a fairly traditional scope and sequence (including time, US money, measurements, etc.) and teaches traditional algorithms along with mental math techniques. And one that doesn't rely so heavily on me to teach every aspect of a new concept (I'd like to be able to have my DS at least get started on the lesson himself and I can then introduce new teaching and ideas when he needs them).

 

Does Singapore fit the bill? From what I can tell based on the limited samples I've seen online, it looks good. I certainly like the idea of having everything already printed and bound and ready to go. But will I regret leaving MEP? Should we stick with what we know and like and maybe just add something like the Complete Book of Math workbook to introduce more traditional math, US money, etc?

 

Or are Singapore and MEP similar enough that the pros of having everything laid out for me would outweigh continuing on with the lovely content but frustrating presentation of MEP. "Imperfect" curriculum that gets done is better than "perfect" curriculum that doesn't, right? Because that is why we are so far behind in MEP... because it takes more organizational skills to implement, when the going gets tough, it tends to fall by the wayside. And Math is too important for that to happen.

[Spy Car]

Primary Mathematics would fit the bill in most (but not all) respects.

 

PM has a very logical progression of math skills. This is among PM's greatest strengths. However, puzzle-like problems (of the sort one sees constantly in MEP) are largely lacking in the "core" PM Textbooks/Workbooks. The Intensive Practice books (IPs) do provide problems that are more similar to MEP (you would likely want these). But overall PM is more "straight-forward."

 

The one area were PM may likely not fit your needs is expecting a child will learn the concepts on their own, and you can come into help. It is not "designed" to be used that way (even if there may be children who successfully self-teach). The Textbook and HIGs make to encourage the same sort of interactive teaching/learning that MEP does. I think it is easier to implement (especially n having all the materials printed and bound) but otherwise they have a lot in common. PM is not designed to remove a teacher from the exploration of new concepts.

 

Bill

[Crimson Wife]

Math Mammoth has all the teaching written directly to the student in the worktext and is a relatively inexpensive program. What it doesn't have is the challenging "puzzle" problems. You could supplement MM with the Singapore "Intensive Practice" workbooks or, if you had the budget for it, Beast Academy.

 

I have kept Singapore as my kids' spine because it goes all the way up through high school math (MM currently only goes up to 6th, though Maria Miller is supposedly working on the 7th grade level). I supplement with some of the single-topic "blue" MM books where I feel the instruction in Singapore isn't incremental enough.

[serendipitous journey]

I agree with Bill that Singapore largely fits your list.  I find it helpful to introduce new concepts myself with Singapore, even if very briefly -- just enough to make sure the child understands what's coming.  Otherwise it can be very frustrating; and this actually doesn't take very long (usually!). 

 

If the children are doing well in MEP, I would encourage you to consider trying it for a bit longer.  Now you may be sick of it and ready to move on, and if so, I not only understand but support this 100%!  If you are interested in ideas for compacting it I could provide some; but it may very well be that it is just time for your family to try something different. 

[Katydid]

Thank you, that is helpful. To be clear, I don't want to be removed from the process... I actually really like our math lessons, once we get started. And I don't want a program that is self-teaching but more self-starting, if that makes sense. I envision being able to tell DS to read the next chapter in the textbook while I'm finishing up something else and then we would come together to do the actual lesson. With MEP, I kinda feel it's all on me to get the ball rolling and he ends up waiting on me to get my head around the lesson since most of he time I don't read ahead. Is that a reasonable expectation for the Primary Mathematics program?

 

As far as the IP books go, should we use a book a half a level behind if he often has trouble with MEP's puzzle problems? I usually need to work through them with him... he likes them but often needs a bit of direction in knowing how to solve them.

 

Looking at the placement test, I was thinking of getting level 3b (the workbook, textbook and HIG... do I need anything else?) and maybe the 3a level IP. Does that sound like a good start?

[Spy Car]

Thank you, that is helpful. To be clear, I don't want to be removed from the process... I actually really like our math lessons, once we get started. And I don't want a program that is self-teaching but more self-starting, if that makes sense. I envision being able to tell DS to read the next chapter in the textbook while I'm finishing up something else and then we would come together to do the actual lesson. With MEP, I kinda feel it's all on me to get the ball rolling and he ends up waiting on me to get my head around the lesson since most of he time I don't read ahead. Is that a reasonable expectation for the Primary Mathematics program?

 

As far as the IP books go, should we use a book a half a level behind if he often has trouble with MEP's puzzle problems? I usually need to work through them with him... he likes them but often needs a bit of direction in knowing how to solve them.

 

Looking at the placement test, I was thinking of getting level 3b (the workbook, textbook and HIG... do I need anything else?) and maybe the 3a level IP. Does that sound like a good start?

Not really (to the bolded). I'm sure that some people attempt to use PM this way (and some may succeed) but it is not the way the program was designed to work, in fact, it is the opposite of the way it is designed to work. I understood that you did not want to remove yourself "entirely," but wanted child to "self-start." That just isn't the way PM is designed to work. It is much more similar to MEP in this regard.

 

So I don't think this is a "reasonable expectation." You may try it and it may or may not work, but it would be against "the method." You should know that going in. I think PM is pretty easy for the teacher/parent to do the lead-in work, and then for the child to do the Workbook lessons more or less independently, but it is not written to the student. There is an expectation that a parent/teacher will introduce new concepts with the student.

 

Bill

[Momling]

We preferred the challenging word problems over the intensive practice. You might get both to give it a try and see which (or both?) you like.

[Spy Car]

About the IPs. Depends.

 

We have usually done them roughly on level (but not synchronized with the lessons). Many do them a half to a full year behind. There is no right or wrong answer. Just as some will have student do all the problems themselves, and some will work through hard problems in tandem.

 

Bill

[GPMommy]

I think Math Mammoth would fit the bill pretty well. It is written to the child in small incrememental steps, so your child could start on thier own, but if your child learns better through hands on it may be best to introduce the new conept with hands on manipulatives, then maybe to some on the board and then assign the problems on paper. If it is a concept they are familiar with then, sure the older one can read the directions get started and then you can check in as needed.

[kbutton]

Thank you, that is helpful. To be clear, I don't want to be removed from the process... I actually really like our math lessons, once we get started. And I don't want a program that is self-teaching but more self-starting, if that makes sense. I envision being able to tell DS to read the next chapter in the textbook while I'm finishing up something else and then we would come together to do the actual lesson. With MEP, I kinda feel it's all on me to get the ball rolling and he ends up waiting on me to get my head around the lesson since most of he time I don't read ahead. Is that a reasonable expectation for the Primary Mathematics program?

 

I think whether or not your son is waiting on you to get your head around the lesson depends on how well you "get" the Singapore presentation. If you can look at the book and realize immediately what they are aiming at, it can be open and go. I generally flip through the materials ahead of time to see which topics I'll need to research. Then, I can make a note of what will be open and go for me and what will be something I definitely need to spend some time on before teaching. Some topics are things you'll spend more time on than others, and you might be doing additional work each day rather than presenting a new lesson every day. 

 

Having your child look at the material first may or may not always work. Some kids do get the examples readily and do fine when you follow up with them. It probably depends on their attention to detail as well as their learning style.

 

You could always save some independent practice on a familiar topic to use as a starting point each day. That might give you time to peruse the materials while your child is occupied.

[Katydid]

Thank you for clarifying that the textbook is not written to the child (I was under the impression that it was). That is definitely good to know going in.

 

I think whether or not your son is waiting on you to get your head around the lesson depends on how well you "get" the Singapore presentation. If you can look at the book and realize immediately what they are aiming at, it can be open and go. I generally flip through the materials ahead of time to see which topics I'll need to research. Then, I can make a note of what will be open and go for me and what will be something I definitely need to spend some time on before teaching. Some topics are things you'll spend more time on than others, and you might be doing additional work each day rather than presenting a new lesson every day. 

 

Having your child look at the material first may or may not always work. Some kids do get the examples readily and do fine when you follow up with them. It probably depends on their attention to detail as well as their learning style.

You could always save some independent practice on a familiar topic to use as a starting point each day. That might give you time to peruse the materials while your child is occupied.

 

I think what you wrote here is the issue. With MEP, it's not so much needing to get my head around the material itself, but rather wading through what and how the lesson is to be taught. If the instructions were written/laid out more clearly, I think it would be much easier to open and go. The lesson format for MEP is just so cumbersome and that is mostly what I'm sick of (along with the organizational skills required to keep everything printed/accessible). From what I understand, the PM materials seem much easier to implement than MEP, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

I have looked at Math Mammoth, but I think it looks kinda boring. And that is what I am most afraid of with switching... MEP has such a nice variety of problems that none of us are bored by it. I'm hoping Singapore has a variety of problems, too, but maybe that's wishful thinking?

 

Can someone tell me if the HIG includes ideas for when and where to add in the extra stuff like specific problems from the IP and CWP books?
 

[redsquirrel]

I have used both SM and MEP with both my kids and I just want to second everything that spycar said.

 

And the HIG doesn't, to my knowledge, include where to add in 'extras' from CWP or IP. I use the US edition. It might be different for the Standard. The HIG does, however suggest when to add in the mental math at the back of the HIGs. I never used the mental math sheets though.

[Katydid]

I have used both SM and MEP with both my kids and I just want to second everything that spycar said.

 

And the HIG doesn't, to my knowledge, include where to add in 'extras' from CWP or IP. I use the US edition. It might be different for the Standard. The HIG does, however suggest when to add in the mental math at the back of the HIGs. I never used the mental math sheets though.

 

Your signature says you are still using Singapore... are you still happy with it? Why did you switch from MEP?

 

[Katydid]

Another question: Should I get the US or Standards edition?

[Spy Car]

Another question: Should I get the US or Standards edition?

There are fans of each. There are a lot fewer problems and less content covered in the US Edition. It makes it easier to blast through, but leaves out some important topics. A child who needs no review might prefer the US Edition, as the Standards Edition has built-in review. I think lack of review was a difficientcy of the US Edition (generally speaking*). The Standards Edition has full color Textbooks. The SE HIGs (Home Instructors Guides) are generally recognized as beng much better than the earlier US Ed. HIGs (though they share the same author, who does say the latter ones were much improved).

 

The IPs are from the US Ed. Mixing them is not an issue.

 

At bottom both editions share the same math model. I would use the US Ed. if the SE did not exist. Personally the SE is better for our use, as (while I like "lean" books) the US Ed. is a little "too lean" for my taste. Your tastes may vary.

 

Bill

[kbutton]

I have used both SM and MEP with both my kids and I just want to second everything that spycar said.

 

And the HIG doesn't, to my knowledge, include where to add in 'extras' from CWP or IP. I use the US edition. It might be different for the Standard. The HIG does, however suggest when to add in the mental math at the back of the HIGs. I never used the mental math sheets though.

 

I would say this goes with my experience. However, the IP topics and the U.S. Edition topics follow the exact same sequence. If you use them simultaneously, it will be obvious. I leave some problems in each section for later to pull back out again before the mid-year review. I use the US Edition. I didn't want full color--my son would find that distracting. I think the IP provides a lot of variety. I am not sure what puzzles are like in MEP, but the IP does have what my son considers logic puzzles as much as they are math problems. We didn't use it last year (our first year at home), but we both love it. My son could not physically accomplish more work than the US Edition books provide--he doesn't do any schoolwork fast.

 

As far as leaving out important topics, you can compare the US and Standards Edition online to see what is covered or not in each edition to see how important they would be to you.

[Crimson Wife]

The textbook is written to the child but it is designed to be "fleshed out" by the teacher's instruction. Think of it like the PowerPoint slides handout accompanying a presentation. Not everything that the presenter says is on the handout. Whereas Math Mammoth has all the teaching written into the worktext so there is no need for a separate TM.

[kbutton]

Thank you for clarifying that the textbook is not written to the child (I was under the impression that it was). That is definitely good to know going in.

 

 

I think what you wrote here is the issue. With MEP, it's not so much needing to get my head around the material itself, but rather wading through what and how the lesson is to be taught. If the instructions were written/laid out more clearly, I think it would be much easier to open and go. The lesson format for MEP is just so cumbersome and that is mostly what I'm sick of (along with the organizational skills required to keep everything printed/accessible). From what I understand, the PM materials seem much easier to implement than MEP, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

I have looked at Math Mammoth, but I think it looks kinda boring. And that is what I am most afraid of with switching... MEP has such a nice variety of problems that none of us are bored by it. I'm hoping Singapore has a variety of problems, too, but maybe that's wishful thinking?

 

Can someone tell me if the HIG includes ideas for when and where to add in the extra stuff like specific problems from the IP and CWP books?

 

 

I think Singapore is easy to implement. At least in the US Edition, the topics align across books with varying depth of practice. The textbook is smack in the middle difficulty-wise with the workbook being the same (or a bit easier for independent practice), the IP and CWP being the same or harder than the TB (and I think the IP teaches all the concepts more broadly as well as deeply). Even the less-preferred HIGs for the US Edition follow the same sequence. They have games as well as ideas for introducing the concepts. I don't think you really "juggle" books so much as use them simultaneously in a logical fashion. Others may disagree!

[redsquirrel]

Your signature says you are still using Singapore... are you still happy with it? Why did you switch from MEP?

 

 

I started my older boy with SM. I doubt that MEP was available at the time. I 'inherited' an entire set of US edition SM (actually 3rd edition) of the texts and Miquon. I started him in Early Bird and then just kept going. 

 

I heard about MEP when he was a 4th grader and I had a second kid ready to start lessons. The younger was at a pre-k level. SM had gone through some sort of revision and the Early Bird books had been revamped or something and I didn't like them (I can't remember why now) so I just moved him over to MEP reception level. I loved that. We did that along with Miquon. I loved MEP so much that I tried sort of 'doubling up' my older boy with SM and MEP. And bless his heart he didn't complain, lol.

 

But, finally it became clear that I couldn't have my older boy using both MEP and SM at the same time. There just weren't enough hours in the day. And I wasn't comfortable abandoning SM halfway through 5th grade, when we were so close to being done. And, then it was just so easy to continue my younger son in SM when I had already taught it through once. I own the HIGs and the texts and all the 'stuff' and I know what it looks like and how to teach it. So we finished with MEP 1 and then moved over the SM 2

 

All that said, if I were starting now, I would probably stick with MEP if I started with it. But, I am a big believer in sticking with a program if it is working for my kid, especially math.

 

I have to say that I am a little confused as to why you find MEP to be difficult to teach. It is much better supported than SM. The lesson plans are very explicit almost scripted, to my way of thinking. Have you fully explored all the teaching materials available on the site? There is a scope and sequence available, and teaching videos as well as "facts to know',  objectives for every year, all the manipulatives ready to print out. That is a whooooole lot more than you will ever get from Singapore Math. It is the ease of teaching that often makes me wistful for MEP.

 

As for the money, I just said dollars instead of pounds. I kept the amounts the same and just changed the units. Of course, I have the same problem with my old SM books. My kids are used to seeing non-American currency in their math :lol: . I own a set of play money from RR that I use for those exercises.

 

The way I teach SM is that we introduce a lesson with the text and I use any manipulatives we will need etc. He works through all the problems in the book with me, talking through what he is doing etc. Then I give him his assignment in the student book. He does those with more or less involvement from me depending on the day. About 4 days a week he also uses Beast Academy. I don't use the CWP or IP. I have seriously considered dropping BA in favor of adding in MEP, but I got a set of the books from a friend and he LOVES BA so prob not.

 

I don't know if this matters to you, but in the choices between Standards and US, the author of the HIGs says that they all teach the same subjects, just not in the same order. I have no idea if that is true or not, but I've had no complaints with the US edition. Plus, as far as I know, there is no HIG for 6th grade in the Standards edition. In 5th and 6th grade I really needed those HIGs. I am so glad I had it for 6th. So, you might want to check that out that when picking US or Standards.

[TKDmom]

I've used all of the math programs discussed in this thread, and MEP is really my favorite. At east for my oldest :P I struggled to find a good fit her for a long time. She used 4B as a 6th grader, and then I discovered on the MEP yahoo group that Y5-6 cover the same material as Y7-9. So she is now using MEP 7 for her 7th grade year. Once you get to Y7 the material is written to the student and it becomes more independent.

 

While she was in 4B, there were days that she would jump into the practice book before I got a chance to teach the lesson material for the day. It wasn't the end of the world. Oftentimes, the lesson book reviewed material that had been previously taught, so she was perfectly capable of doing those problems first. When I was free, I'd let her finish whatever problem she was working on, then go back and teach the lesson. I'm not advocating this as the ideal way to teach. But it can give you a few minutes to read through the lesson and print out any necessary copymasters without making your student wait for you.

 

Occasionally, she would start to do math without me and realize that she couldn't, so I told her to move on to another subject and we would do math together when I was ready. Being flexible will help you keep your sanity. :)

[madteaparty]

I also have a 4th grader, and we are in SM4a. I find I love supplementing with MEP, but would not be able to teach it. I can't explain why, it could be because it is discovery-based and all lessons are "elicited"? As an example, there was, out of the blue, a problem re: concave and convex shapes. I cannot see where those are explained; there's just the problem. English is my second language, and while I figured out the answer via the included pictures, I would have had to look up the terms to be able to cobble together a lesson before giving this exercise. But I find it a fun and challenging supplement. I would say MEP4 is of harder difficulty that the 4text and workbook in Singapore, but the IP and CWP are the hardest of them all in my view. We do IP and CWP one semester delayed, and DS still struggles a but with them.

[Katydid]

Well, now this is interesting. Maybe what I really have is "greener grass" syndrome. If I am willing to spend $100 on a whole new program, maybe I should just spend some money and time on making MEP (the program we know and love) more useable for me, huh?

 

So here is what I'm thinking: for each printable section (3 in A and 3 in B ) in each of the years, I want to print all the lesson plans (double sided) and answer keys (4 to a sheet) and then have them spiral bound. So I will end up with 3 smaller spiral books that I can then put in a binder labeled "MEP year 4a", for example. That way I can just pull out the spiral book we need instead of handling the whole bulky binder. Then I can print all the worksheet pages and put them in order in our file box, like I already do. The kids actually like having individual sheets to work on instead of a workbook. I suppose I could also take some time to go through the pages and find the few that need the full size printing (the measurement pages) and print them full size on the back of those pages.

 

The copymasters are what I struggle with. A few of them are useful, but I don't end up using most of them. But I know from experience that if they are not printed ahead of time, they will not get done. Maybe I should just print them all (double-sided) and put them in page protectors in each year's binder so I can just pull out the ones I need for each lesson. Then we can use dry erase marker on the sheet protector to work the problems and I can reuse the sheets with the next kid(s). I can also make copies of any that need to be cut up and put those in the page protectors on top of the original.

 

Does anyone have any other ideas about organizing MEP?

 

I do think I will also get The Complete Book of Math, grades 3-4 for DS just for my peace of mind. It looks fun and colorful and includes US money and measurements as well as a more traditional presentation on topics we've already covered (or will be covering this year). Then if we hate it, we are only out 10 bucks.

 

I actually have all of the Miquon books torn apart and organized by topic filed in a big binder. The plan was to pull out select pages and put them into page protectors to use with dry erase markers, but I haven't really done much with them yet.

 

Is there a book I could get that would teach me the Singapore teaching techniques that I could use with MEP? Like I said, I have the Miquon books and I also have the RightStart AL Abacus books and have enjoyed using those teaching techniques with MEP (especially the abacus, we love that!). Maybe just learning the techniques would keep me from wanting to buy the whole Primary Mathematics program?

 

 

[Amie]

Here are a couple of my favorite old blog posts about setting up MEP for the year:

http://ohpeacefulday.blogspot.com/2009/06/mep-101.html

http://fisheracademy.blogspot.com/2010/05/mep-organization-in-pictures.html

 

(There are probably other great posts by now, but I haven't searched in quite a while.)

 

 

I do not print our worksheets on A4 paper and I never shrink to fit.  You can print normally on our 8.5 x 11 copy paper and you will only lose the bottom half of the page numbers.  That way the measurements will work out as they should.   

 

I haven't printed any of the OHP's/posters up to this point.  If I use one I usually pull it up on my laptop or iPad (this may not be an easy option for others) for us to view there.  This has been especially helpful in beginning Reception with my younger (all that color in Reception!).  I usually do his lessons on the iPad opened in Notability so we can mark on the worksheets with our fingers.

 

I have fewer children and a shorter MEP career than you do, so I am still learning and looking for better ways to organize.  But I  wanted to chime in with our (limited) experience anyway.  I'll be watching this thread with interest. 

 

[Katydid]

I do not print our worksheets on A4 paper and I never shrink to fit.  You can print normally on our 8.5 x 11 copy paper and you will only lose the bottom half of the page numbers.  That way the measurements will work out as they should.   

 

I haven't printed any of the OHP's/posters up to this point.  If I use one I usually pull it up on my laptop or iPad (this may not be an easy option for others) for us to view there.  This has been especially helpful in beginning Reception with my younger (all that color in Reception!).  I usually do his lessons on the iPad opened in Notability so we can mark on the worksheets with our fingers.

 

 

I have tried not shrinking them down and the partial numbers really bother me for some reason. The measuring ones have been few enough so far that I don't think it will be too much of an issue to just print them full sized on the back.

 

I have also tried just looking at the laptop (don't have a tablet) and it just doesn't work well... I'm not sure why. But it always seems to go better when I have everything we need printed ahead of time. Which is why it's been a struggle using MEP... I'll think "oh, no big deal, I'll just read that from the computer when I need to" and then it just doesn't happen. I am using MEP because it is an interesting and quality math program, not because it's free. If I wasn't using it, I would be spending money on a pre-bound, prepared curriculum. So, for me, it makes sense to spend the money to make MEP as legit and easy to use as possible. Spending the time and money to get it pre-printed, bound and organized makes it feel more like a "real" math program and will make me want to stick with it longer. And it will still probably be cheaper than buying Primary Mathematics or any other program I am interested in.

 

[Amie]

I have tried not shrinking them down and the partial numbers really bother me for some reason. The measuring ones have been few enough so far that I don't think it will be too much of an issue to just print them full sized on the back.

 

I have also tried just looking at the laptop (don't have a tablet) and it just doesn't work well... I'm not sure why. But it always seems to go better when I have everything we need printed ahead of time. Which is why it's been a struggle using MEP... I'll think "oh, no big deal, I'll just read that from the computer when I need to" and then it just doesn't happen. I am using MEP because it is an interesting and quality math program, not because it's free. If I wasn't using it, I would be spending money on a pre-bound, prepared curriculum. So, for me, it makes sense to spend the money to make MEP as legit and easy to use as possible. Spending the time and money to get it pre-printed, bound and organized makes it feel more like a "real" math program and will make me want to stick with it longer. And it will still probably be cheaper than buying Primary Mathematics or any other program I am interested in.

 

I often end up filling in the rest of the page number with a pen...but not always these days. 

 

And I do understand the issues with using the computer.  I have a mixed relationship with it.  It is so easy and convenient and yet also the reason we may hesitate in getting the "math ball" rolling for the day.  I am very much a pen/paper/book in hand kind of person.  I am actually planning on printing out the teacher lesson plans like shown in the fisher academy link above beginning with Year 2b.  My original reason was to have more of our curriculum to show at end-of-year evaluations, but I really think it will help our days be more organized and efficient.   I don't feel too bad about printing it all out either knowing I'll have another student to follow.  

I think a lot of my MEP success depends on the prep work I put into it, but a lot of that prep work can be done once at the beginning of a year or semester. 

 

Also, I forgot to mention earlier that we are covering all of the money/measurements in MEP as is and add in US money/measurements in everyday life (so far).  But I'm thinking of purchasing a little workbook or the Math Mammoth section on money and measurements to round that out.

[Walking-Iris]

I've printed some of MEP and wanted to try to use it as supplement to another program, mainly Miquon, which is my favorite math program. But really the main issue with something like MEP is that it's not really user friendly. I find that by the time I've taken the pain to print it and try to make it more user friendly (add ink and paper costs) and factored in my time at the computer trying to figure out how to use it and what link to bookmark, making it work one on one rather than a classroom setting....I could have saved myself some time just making an order at RainbowResource and having my math materials sitting pretty ready to use on my shelf!!!

 

So I've given up in trying to figure MEP out, because it's much easier IMHO to just pick a math program and have the books in hand. It's easier for my kids as well. They have a math book they can pick up at leisure and can move around the house or take with them to Nana's etc. They wouldn't be able to tote around MEP. 

 

SM or MM would be good options (I find that Miquon works well with either of those two) and they are relatively inexpensive. And saves time. 

 

 

[Spy Car]

I have tried not shrinking them down and the partial numbers really bother me for some reason. The measuring ones have been few enough so far that I don't think it will be too much of an issue to just print them full sized on the back.

 

I have also tried just looking at the laptop (don't have a tablet) and it just doesn't work well... I'm not sure why. But it always seems to go better when I have everything we need printed ahead of time. Which is why it's been a struggle using MEP... I'll think "oh, no big deal, I'll just read that from the computer when I need to" and then it just doesn't happen. I am using MEP because it is an interesting and quality math program, not because it's free. If I wasn't using it, I would be spending money on a pre-bound, prepared curriculum. So, for me, it makes sense to spend the money to make MEP as legit and easy to use as possible. Spending the time and money to get it pre-printed, bound and organized makes it feel more like a "real" math program and will make me want to stick with it longer. And it will still probably be cheaper than buying Primary Mathematics or any other program I am interested in.

 

I think that purchasing a ream (or two, or three) of A4 paper would be a worthwhile expenditure. 

 

Not "shrinking to fit" causes problems, and "shrinking to fit" throws off measurements. Using A4 paper is the simple solution.

 

MEP is a great program. Not being "printed" is a slight user hassle (especially given the formatting issues). So your idea is a good one. Just get it printed and bound. But use A4 (which can be had, and is not super expensive).

 

BTW, I find the iPad works well for the Lesson Plans (since Christmas is coming :D) but, while the Notability app makes it possible, I like "paper" for the student books vs using a tablet (others may differ).

 

Best wishes deciding. You have two outstanding choices, which makes it hard.

 

Bill

[TGHEALTHYMOM]

   http://www.thesingaporemaths.com/  has some free math too.

 

Switching from Saxon due to the cost of K-3 and our large family,  I am printing out MEP due to my low cost paper and ink.  MM fractions is good too. I am trying Right Start math games and they are a hit so far! I got a great deal on the set so that is why we are using it. Every day in our house is different but worksheets are great for copying to practice or test. I don't care what we use as long as learning is occuring and boredom does not set in.  We have pattern blocks, legos. and 2 sets of MUS blocks. I tried MUS and the Place Value lesson was as far as we got.  It did help! 

 Blocks are always on my list along with any building toys.  I do not have time to work with each child so whiteboard lessons with 2-3 at a time and games are working out well. We also drill each other on math facts and play Brain games and Professor Layton.  Cash register and play money automatically make "store" time fun too.   

[Katydid]

If I use A4 paper then it won't fit nicely into regular binders, though. And that would drive me crazy, too. I just have to be difficult, don't I?

[Spy Car]

If I use A4 paper then it won't fit nicely into regular binders, though. And that would drive me crazy, too. I just have to be difficult, don't I?

 

 

What about some form of loopy end binders (whose correct names I don't know, not being an official homeschooler) that allow pages to be "bound" and to lay flat?

 

And, guess what?, a Google search reveals one can order A4 binders (as well as A4 paper).

 

We truly live in an age of miracle and wonder! :D

 

Bill

[Amie]

If I use A4 paper then it won't fit nicely into regular binders, though. And that would drive me crazy, too. I just have to be difficult, don't I?

Haha, this sounds a lot like me.  I have certain perfectionist attitudes about certain things...and it can really hinder my progress.  I tend to feel like I have to have everything just so before I'll even attempt it.  Lately, I have been trying to focus less on the little details and more on just diving in and making progress.  I love following a step-by-step plan, ticking off the perfect boxes and then filing it away in the perfect binder.  :)  We've had some great math days lately though where we take rabbit trails and pull out the c-rods, abacus, manipulatives, games, books...and it looks so messy...and half of my MEP page numbers are missing...and there are no boxes to check and not much to file in my binder...and that kind of irritates me...but they have been some of the best math days we've had and the kids are really learning. 

So all of that to say, you may just have to lower your standards...er...I mean expectations. ;)  But if those things are truly getting in the way of you teaching math (and I get that), then, by all means, make a switch.  Something like Math Mammoth all printed and bound/filed may be just the thing.  I know it has tempted me more than once...

[Katydid]

You have all been so helpful! I literally had my cart at RR filled up with a whole new math program, ready to push the button and you all have talked me down.  :hurray:  I think I have not been putting in the effort required to make the most of MEP and I was looking for the easy way out hoping that a new program would be the answer to all my problems. :001_rolleyes:

 

But it doesn't sound like PM is the miracle cure I was hoping it would be. And since we all genuinely love MEP, I shouldn't change what isn't broken. With a few tweaks, I think it will be just right for us. I'm going to use the weekend to print and bind the next section for DS the way I outlined above and then take the time to read ahead on the lessons with the practice sheets next to me and highlight and make notes and such.

 

Thank you all so much for your ideas and advice!  :grouphug:

 

Oh, and one more question... does anyone know if the Elementary Mathematics for Teachers book will help me if I wanted to learn how to apply the bar modeling method from Singapore to our lessons in MEP?

[TKDmom]

If I use A4 paper then it won't fit nicely into regular binders, though. And that would drive me crazy, too. I just have to be difficult, don't I?

A new ProClick would be your friend. :D

 

Actually the ProClick brand doesn't fit A4. I found this out too late. So I print only the student pages on A4 and bind them on the top. There is another binding machine, like the ProClick, which will bind both A4 and letter-size paper. I'm not remembering the name, though...

[TGHEALTHYMOM]

www.thesingaporemaths.com

 

 

 

The Free website above shows you the Model of Singapore Math and we love it!!!

[Katydid]

A new ProClick would be your friend. :D

 

Actually the ProClick brand doesn't fit A4. I found this out too late. So I print only the student pages on A4 and bind them on the top. There is another binding machine, like the ProClick, which will bind both A4 and letter-size paper. I'm not remembering the name, though...

 

It's not just the storage of the worksheets themselves I'm concerned about, but rather having drastically different sized papers to deal with in our end of the year portfolio binders. Maybe it's dumb, but I would rather take a bit of time to just copy the full sized worksheet on the back of the few measurement pages that there are (which are obvious by just a quick glance through the pile) than have to buy all new binders for our portfolios that then don't fit our regular-sized paper. :svengo:

 

[Katydid]

www.thesingaporemaths.com

 

 

 

The Free website above shows you the Model of Singapore Math and we love it!!!

Thanks so much! I will check this out.

[TKDmom]

It's not just the storage of the worksheets themselves I'm concerned about, but rather having drastically different sized papers to deal with in our end of the year portfolio binders. Maybe it's dumb, but I would rather take a bit of time to just copy the full sized worksheet on the back of the few measurement pages that there are (which are obvious by just a quick glance through the pile) than have to buy all new binders for our portfolios that then don't fit our regular-sized paper. :svengo:

 

 

Hee hee. You have my brand of OCD. ;)

 

I would do the same thing--just print everything sized to fit regular paper, then just reprint measurement pages with no scaling. You won't lose anything on those pages other than the page number.

 

FWIW, once you print out your TM, it is a simple matter to scan through the copy masters with TM in hand and decide which CMs would be useful. Most of them are just enlarged copies of drawings that are in the student book. I've found that I don't have to print out very many CMs, and I can just stick the useful ones in the right spot in my TM. Most of the time, I don't even use the ones I print, but the 3 times I have needed a copymaster, I didn't print it out ahead of time, and lost my student (literally--like they wander off into the backyard and hide) while I looked it up and printed it.

[lewelma]

We just moved from Singapore to MEP secondary, so I have not used the primary materials.  I will say, however, I really like how MEP rotates topics more frequently, has the mental math built in, has review built in, has investigations/puzzlers built in.  With SM I had to get so many books and shuffle through them, and my son never got a good feeling for how much he should expect to do because it was a bit of this and a bit of that. 

 

As for organizing MEP, last month I went through the first 3 chapters and tried to figure out a way to make it open and go.  After a bit of this and a bit of that, I found that I could write on the student sheet (in red pen) notes to myself as to what material should be referenced in the teacher's manual, crossed out what could easily be skipped, etc.  For the first chapter, I had to print it all out and figure out what was what, but by chapter 3, I had determined what needed to be fully printed, what could be referenced on the tablet, and what I could print just pieces of.  I timed myself for chapter 3 and it took me 20 minutes to mark it up to make it open and go.  That is 20 minutes for 8 days of student work.  So my plan is to once a month mark up 3 chapters at a time which would only take an hour.  Then it is open and go.

 

If you have a program that works for your children, I would seriously consider sticking with it.  I have tried everything under the son looking for that perfect program, and I finally think it might be MEP.

 

Ruth in NZ

[Deee]

MEP is an outstanding maths program. It teaches mathematic thinking, not formulaic problem solving. We started it in 6th grade. I am kicking myself that we didn't start in way back in 2nd when we started homeschooling. I have a science degree and used to work in epidemiology. I have a mathematical brain. My son does not. The turnaround in his ability after we switched to MEP was dramatic. Don't worry about being "behind". MEP moves very quickly. Because it tackles mental maths, problem solving and mathematic concepts all at once, you cover and review a lot of material with a minimum of busy work. If you worked your way through to year 6, you could spend year 7 reviewing previous work and teaching solid individual work skills by working through the years 7 and 8 interactive tutorials in one year, then pull apart year 9 and see what is review that you can do via the tutorials, and what is new and needs the printouts for proper learning. You may be able to cover all three years in one (we are doing them over 2 because DS has gaps and we have to fit in some extras from the Australian curriculum). Keep in mind that MEP finishes at year 13.

 

I have never used the black line masters. I just write on a blackboard. I use the ipad for the teachers notes. I don't do a lot of teacher prep (cos I am both lazy and busy) but maths is my forte. If maths isn't your thing you may have to do more prep. Try a scientists trick and make a flow chart for each lesson. MEP lessons usually have good flow. And don't be scared of admitting you don't get it. Some of MEP is really challenging. It does kids good to see Mum working hard to nut something out (it may not have done DS good to see me losing it over co-ordinate geometry on one of the days when I really should have done some lesson prep!)

 

Buy some A4 paper and a nice folder. Honestly, its what most of the world uses. it's just you Americans thinking you're special again 😈 A4 is lovely stuff. We Aussies are used to having to put up with everyone else's money and dodgy spelling. Our kids don't bat an eye at UK or US money. Put it down to cultural exposure and embrace being a bit of a weirdo. The payoff will be a child with outstanding mathematical literacy.

D

[Emerald Stoker]

Slightly off-topic, but those of you who are concerned about binders and paper size and so on might be interested in ordering the printed MEP workbooks from CIMT. Here's the order form: http://www.cimt.plymouth.ac.uk/projects/mepres/ordform.pdf

 

They're not free, but they are quite cheap at 3 pounds each, and shipping is not too bad at all to North America (you have to contact them for a shipping quote).

 

Not sure if that will help anybody, but I hope so!