how do I encourage intrinsic motivation for learning? or make my daughter less lazy?

[fdrinca]

I have a young 5-year-old daughter who is precocious in academics, and most anything she tries comes easily to her. Unfortunately, when faced with challenging tasks, her first and strongest reactions are to give up/move quickly and "get it over with"/protest loudly and with tears.

 

I've tried a few different ways to motivate her, with varying levels of success. I'd like to help her grow to a place where she's able to motivate herself. I really don't think her issue is that of perfectionism but that of laziness: she's just not in the habit of working hard.

 

Friends have mentioned that she could be 2E, but I'm not sure what her LD would be other than a deficit in executive function. Then again, I'm not very versed in LDs.

 

Thoughts? Ideas? Support?

[ErinE]

I don't think she's lazy. I think she's being five years old. I didn't expect much "effort" from my five year old beyond 10-20 minutes math, 5-10 minutes phonics, and 5-10 minutes writing. If something was forgotten, I reviewed it and we moved on. Math was all manipulative based so the answer could be found. We spent weeks reviewing short-vowel sounds and CVC words. Once letters were mastered, writing might be 2-3 words. Tough days had lower requirements. On good days, positive attitude was praised.

 

As far as encouraging learning, we used the library to check out books and documentaries on subjects of interest. There was no output expectations beyond looking at/reading the books during free reading time. I would read-aloud books upon request. Even at a young age, my kids were required to pick out books on at least one subject they wanted to research. Only after pulling these books were they released to browse the shelves.

[FriedClams]

She's 5. Deep breath. 5. "A young 5." I'm not saying to do nothing or not have any expectations - but she's 5. Barely past 4.

 

What I would work on with a 5 year old is having a good attitude when it's time for out 15 minutes of phonics. No whining, crying, etc. I'd work on paying attention and being respectful to you as a teacher. Work toward no tears or fits, and a good attitude. I'd keep it short and sweet - but work on cheerful participation. This isn't a big deal at 5 - because the academic part is so short and simple - but training the habit now will minimize eye rolling and sighs from an 8-9 year old....10-12 year old.... Etc. But - don't expect perfection. I still struggle with being diligent and focused and I am a former military pilot! She's a little kid who is a work in progress. Help her. Guide her.

 

I agree with the PP - 10-15 minutes phonics, 10-15 minutes math. Then read to her as much as possible. Run in fields and stand in streams. Chase butterflies and paint the driveway with chalk. Sing and dance and go see concerts for kids. Watch a play for kids. Go to museums. Read, snuggle, drink tea and bake.

 

I'd enforced an afternoon quiet time. In our house kids can sleep or read (and later do piano practice or schoolwork) from about 12:30-2. I needed a break. The kids need a break. And - this is the best part - they learned to fill time productively without tv or electronics. They read, listened to books on tape, chilled. Learning to be quiet alone for a couple hours is a wonderful thing to learn and one that makes being a homeschool mom mcih easier. But trust me - if she's used to you entertaining her all day every day - this will require work for both of you - but it's worth it IMHO.

[Ellie]

I have a young 5-year-old daughter who is precocious in academics, and most anything she tries comes easily to her. Unfortunately, when faced with challenging tasks, her first and strongest reactions are to give up/move quickly and "get it over with"/protest loudly and with tears.

 

I've tried a few different ways to motivate her, with varying levels of success. I'd like to help her grow to a place where she's able to motivate herself. I really don't think her issue is that of perfectionism but that of laziness: she's just not in the habit of working hard.

 

Friends have mentioned that she could be 2E, but I'm not sure what her LD would be other than a deficit in executive function. Then again, I'm not very versed in LDs.

 

Thoughts? Ideas? Support?

 

Please do not describe your dd as "lazy."

 

 

She's only 5. Why are you trying to "motivate" her? Children want to learn. They learn all the time. I suspect that you are trying to "motivate" her to do things that look like Official School Stuff. Why? She's just 5.

[CardinalAlt]

I read somewhere here and like the advice that even for a precocious kid, you require only the amount of time spent you'd expect of any kid that age. Make the work appropriately challenging, sure - but don't load it on time-wise.

 

At 5 my daughter had all sorts of stamina for what she liked, much less for what she didn't. 5, 10, 15 minute intervals on mama-led things were just right. At 6.5 her stamina for the mama-led stuff has increased, but I still try not to load it on!

[sunnyday]

Intrinsic motivation is not something you put into the child. That's...kind of the point. That it's *intrinsic*. :)

 

You can encourage your child to see the activities you suggest as being valuable to her. But at 5, the big-picture benefit of being made to drill her addition facts or whatever is *not* on her radar and you can't really put it there. She's far more concerned with figuring out her place in the world; that is the job of 5.

 

So let her be 5, academically precocious or not. If she asks for academics, indulge her; if you are both in great energy and feeling up for it, do something tough like a jigsaw puzzle that's a bit out of her reach. Model interest, excitement, and willingness to try again to get a solution; do the same with any problem you yourself encounter in daily life. Car not starting? It's raining too hard to do the gardening you'd planned? Where does YOUR intrinsic motivation to tackle these kinds of situations come from? :D

 

Or you could just talk about a concept that will involve changing her assumptions. For example, pour water between two shapes of vessel and see if you can get her curious enough to figure out WHY the volume seems to alter. ;)

 

But if even that stuff ends up feeling like butting heads, for heavens' sake it takes two to butt! Butt out! :p This is *her* development, not yours. Even a bright child will not have their brains rot out of their ears if you let them explore the world with a sense of delight instead of bringing out the textbooks and making them feel motivated to work on "challenges".

[PeterPan]

The Myth of Laziness

 

I'm not necessarily in agreement with everything Levine says, but it would be a place to start reading.  And yes, my dd has EF issues and a VERY low persistence when we did the psych testing.  They actually test and can compare to norms how the child perserveres.  Let's just say it was annoying but only a part of the problem, not the main thing.

 

She's 14 now, and we've talked about it for years (stick to it, don't give up).  You send her to look for something, and she won't come back with it.  It's over and over, and nothing I've done has really changed that.  I think it's neurological, as SunnyDay pointed out.  So my two cents is work with it, stop calling her lazy, and find out what's really going on.  She's not lazy, and calling her that, even to yourself, just creates a negative dynamic where you sort of miss how she COULD work and how amazing she CAN be when she's engaged.

 

You can get evals at 5, but I don't know how much they'll diagnose.  Sometimes they want the kid to be closer to 7.  If you're frustrated, make a move and get something.  Evals are the absolute best thing we did, and we waited WAY too long.  When people who know her are telling you something is going on, there probably is.  When your gut is saying something is wrong, there probably is.  It's much better to have the right words (low processing speed, anxiety, high IQ, adhd, whatever) than to have perjorative words like lazy and the conclusions they come to about themselves.

[Wilma]

Have you read Carol Dweck's book Mindsets?  It's one of my Top 5 books of parenting/life right now.  She talks about how there are fixed mindsets and growth mindsets, and choosing one or the other has a profound influence on how your view yourself and your life.  A kid with a fixed mindset, used to being smart, will balk at trying something difficult because they fear losing their "smart" label.  That could be part of what's going on with your girl?  Anyway, the book is excellent and very thought provoking.

 

 

[mathnerd]

What you are describing sounds like "perfectionism". Some kids are so used to doing things easily that when they encounter something difficult, they fear failure and they do not want outcomes that are less than perfect. So, they refuse to attempt it. I suspect that perfectionism is what you are seeing. There are a lot of ways of teaching your child to overcome perfectionism, but it is a long process. Things like music training, martial arts and just academics at a higher level are good ways to teach your child that not everything comes easily and that sometimes we need to make mistakes in order to learn or improve.

[Jilly]

Hmm...I think the problem may be that you have expectations for her that are not on par with a 5-year-old. Many parents on these boards would love to have a child who is self-motivated in regards to academics, but I don't think you can expect that until the child is much, much older. At 5 academics should be very short and sweet. There is a good deal of pressure out there to have the child do more than what is necessary or beneficial, and I would ignore it. 

 

As far as LDs, 5 is very young to be diagnosed. I would not worry about that at all unless there are other issues you are seeing. 

[lewelma]

I think it is about training.  Let me first say, I did not do formal school work with my kids until they were 6.5.  But at that point, I needed to train my younger to be more self motivated and to have a better attitude.  I did this using a paper chain!

 

Every day, each subject that was done with a good attitude earned a brightly-colored ring for the paper chain.  Each ring was added right after it was earned, so it gave immediate feedback.  The paper chain was displayed prominently in our house so every person who came in commented on it, and ds could proudly say that each ring represented a good attitude.  In the first  few weeks, we talked about what a good attitude looks like and I helped him to determine if he earned a link or not.   I made sure that he started with subjects that he liked and for a very short period of time (as in 5 minutes) so that he could see success.  Then after about a month, I had *him* decide if he earned a ring or not.  Kids can be very honest with themselves if you let them, and this was an important step towards internalizing his work ethic.  Over the period of a year, I increased the expectations, from 5 to 7 to 10 to 15 to 20 mintues etc, and from subjects he loved to subjects he mostly hated (like spelling).  So he might be at 20 minutes for math but still only 5 minutes on spelling, because that was all he could successfully do with a good attitude.  Success builds on success, so my focus was on designing a program where he could have success!  I used lots of praise and the natural consequences of no ring for a bad attitude.  I also definitely used the public aspect to help him to become proud of his good attitude. This training process took 1.5 years.  It was definitely not fast, but it was very effective in developing an intrinsic work ethic.

 

Ruth in NZ

[fdrinca]

Thank you all for your feedback. I've added the book recommendations to my library request list.

 

We don't do much by way of formal academics right now, perhaps 30-45 minutes three times a week. She's generally happy and willing to engage in academics...unless it's something she doesn't quickly intuit. Then it's a challenge, and we take a break and try again a different way another time.

 

My short-term concern came with her gymnastics coach and another instructor asked me to work on her "sullen and defiant" attitude in class. I suppose this attitude is in one way separate from her internal motivation (an issue of respect), but at the same time it's borne from her unwillingness to do what has been asked because it is challenging.

 

And I'm speaking as a former smart kid who worked through high school and college fueled by the praise of instructors and identification as top-flight, only to find myself in a competitive graduate school program  where my identity was shared by 15 other adults who did it better than I did. It was a rough transition, and not one I'd like for my little one.

 

Oh, and please know I never call her lazy, not to her face at least, and really only to my husband at the end of one of THOSE days.

[duckens]

--Praise her for being a hard worker, rather than for being smart.

 

"I can see how hard you're working!"

 

or to Daddy:

 

"[Dd6] worked hard today.  She did w,x,y, AND z!!!!"

 

--Make it clear that most people have about the same amount of intelligence.  The difference is in how hard they work.

 

Hard work beats talent any day of the week that talent doesn't work hard.

 

--This discussion I had with my dd6 last week:

"People who make a difference in the world are usually people who 'know lots of stuff.""  They know A,B,C,D, and E, and they pull it all together to change the world.  Often they know A,B,C, and D, and then they talk to someone else and learn E; they learn the last piece of the puzzle.  I want YOU to know lots of stuff....so that's why we work so hard.

 

Disclaimer:  I do not plan for my girls to change the whole world, but I hope they develop the skills to change their part of the world if they need to.

 

--What motivates her? 

A year ago, we used tv to motivate dd6 (5 at that time).  She had to accomplish a certain amount of schoolwork before she earned 30 minutes of PBS kids.  (We also have a TIVO to save all of her favorite shows). 

If she complained about not being able to watch tv, I told her that I wasn't the one to complain to.  I was willing to do Math and Phonics.  She was the one to talk to if it wasn't accomplished.

After all, Daddy doesn't get paid if he doesn't do his work.  Why should she?  (And her job is schoolwork).

[Ellie]

My short-term concern came with her gymnastics coach and another instructor asked me to work on her "sullen and defiant" attitude in class. I suppose this attitude is in one way separate from her internal motivation (an issue of respect), but at the same time it's borne from her unwillingness to do what has been asked because it is challenging.

 

 

 

Oh, and please know I never call her lazy, not to her face at least, and really only to my husband at the end of one of THOSE days.

 

Perhaps what y'all perceive as her "unwillingness" to do what has been asked is not just because it's challenging, but because she fears in her heart of hearts that she cannot do it yet, or perhaps that's just the way she works: the reluctance builds itself up to her being able to do it  And since she's only 5, and doesn't have the language skills yet to express herself, and maybe also that she knows she has to do it anyway, she appears outwardly "sullen and defiant." Perhaps it would be better to help examine herself that way instead of assuming that she is, in fact, sullen and defiant when she's really just not sure of herself.

 

That the word "lazy" is even in your vocabulary could be problematic, because you will treat her that way even if you don't say it out loud. I was one who was accused of being lazy, and it has really scarred me. You'd think I'd be over it by now, but no, I'm not. :-)

[ErinE]

My short-term concern came with her gymnastics coach and another instructor asked me to work on her "sullen and defiant" attitude in class. I suppose this attitude is in one way separate from her internal motivation (an issue of respect), but at the same time it's borne from her unwillingness to do what has been asked because it is challenging.

 

 

Oh, and please know I never call her lazy, not to her face at least, and really only to my husband at the end of one of THOSE days.

Well, the sullen and defiant attitude doesn't say lazy to me. Perhaps your child isn't enjoying herself or no longer wants to be in gymnastics. If my child was rude to an instructor, we would have a heart to heart about attitude, respect, and extracurriculars. I expect my children to be respectful, polite, and attentive while participating in extras.

 

In regards to calling your child lazy, be aware that children lurk. She could overhear those words and feel them deeply. I also think calling my child lazy (even out of earshot) could spill over into how I treat that child. In my view, a five year old isn't lazy; she's just acting her age.

 

ETA: Like Ruth, I found a motivator. My kids have agendas and in K, dd's agenda was only a few subjects, but I would give her a sticker for a good day. Also, a hug, kiss, and praise for hard work can really help my kids' attitudes. If the day starts wrong, we take a break and I try to give praise for coming back to the table and completing school.

[musicianmom]

And I'm speaking as a former smart kid who worked through high school and college fueled by the praise of instructors and identification as top-flight, only to find myself in a competitive graduate school program where my identity was shared by 15 other adults who did it better than I did. It was a rough transition, and not one I'd like for my little one.

Do you know, I guessed this about you after reading your first post? Seriously, I should have put money on it.

 

I had similar experiences, and so I was very worried about challenging my oldest dd. I was so afraid that if I eased up, that her brain would get all lazy and she would not be able to face challenges later.

 

My attempts were not working, and not to get into too much detail, but I ended up having her evaluated. Turns out that though she was an early reader and precocious learner, her IQ actually isn't in the HG range like my test results showed at the same age. And she has sensory issues that affect her ability to regulate emotionally. And she most likely has ADHD.

 

So I've had to adjust my expectations over and over again, and provide the education that my daughter needs, rather than the education I wish I had as a kid.

 

It doesn't sound like you're doing too much with your dd. I would recommend being creative and finding ways to teach the concepts without setting up a right vs. wrong dynamic. Help her to discover the math answers (Miquon I believe is good for this, for example) so she's not worried about getting something wrong, maybe?

 

I don't know, I'm still trying to figure out stuff myself. But I wanted to let you know I really get your concern, and I also know how not-little 5 seems when a child is precocious and the oldest.

[fdrinca]

Perhaps I need to find her currency. And strike lazy from my vocabulary :)

 

My hope for her - for all of my children, and yours, too - is that she'll develop a good work ethic. So perhaps we'll externally motivate with whatever fuel she requires.

 

And remind myself that I'm parenting my daughter, not my 5-year-old self, even if we do look awfully similar at times.

[CardinalAlt]

Is she excited about the activities where her attitude is not ideal? Perhaps they are just not a good fit? If she wants to participate, I would require a good attitude out of respect for others involved. But if she doesn't, is it really worth the struggle? A good work ethic can be developed in many ways, and gymnastics doesn't seem like a total necessity...

 

Second (third, whatever) the "Mindset" recommendations!

[Ali in OR]

I think your original question is a good one and worthy of discussion, though in my head I keep saying it as "how do we develop life-long learners" rather than "how do I encourage intrinsic motivation." As you point out, the praise and rewards for being a good learner do end at some point (often before grad school) and our motivation for all of the hard work has to be something other than external reward. "I learn because it is interesting." "I learn in order to develop new skills." And if you love learning for learning's sake, it's not going to matter that maybe some of the other people in your grad program are smarter than you. At least you're in the game! I also think about the pressure of having to "live up to your potential" because "you're so smart." How about just learning because it's fun and makes life more interesting? Takes the pressure off.

 

So a few things that we do in our house to develop life-long learners (we hope):

-Model it. Work on learning new things yourself. Read books (esp. non-fiction), take courses, learn a new hobby, discuss current events, and talk about the new things you're learning.

-No tv or video games. Time must be filled with more worthwhile activites.

-Have some unstructured time in the daily schedule (kids and adults)--time to create, play with ideas, pursue your own reading, etc. At 5 years old, this is just independent play. I've always loved seeing what we do in school show up in the kids' play.

-Develop readers. Read great books aloud to your kids starting when they're pretty young and don't stop just because they reach a point where they're reading on their own. Phonics instruction is hard work, but it's important. 15 minutes a day is plenty. Go to the library weekly--pick out great books for your kids and let them learn to pick out good stuff too. Discover favorite authors together and check their books out a lot.

-Talk to your kids. Ponder the mysteries of life together.

-Study history by reading great books together, Well-Trained Mind style.

 

I'm sure there are lots of great ideas out there. What is it that we do as home schoolers to develop people who love learning?

 

[Maela]

I read somewhere here and like the advice that even for a precocious kid, you require only the amount of time spent you'd expect of any kid that age. Make the work appropriately challenging, sure - but don't load it on time-wise.

 

At 5 my daughter had all sorts of stamina for what she liked, much less for what she didn't. 5, 10, 15 minute intervals on mama-led things were just right. At 6.5 her stamina for the mama-led stuff has increased, but I still try not to load it on!

I agree!  One of the reasons school didn't go so well for us last year was that I was expecting not just second grade level work from my five year old (who could easily do that), but also an amount of time spent doing school work that would better suit a seven or eight year old.  

 

This year has been much better because I am constantly reminding myself that she's only six and should only spend a couple of hours on school work - even if she's working at a higher level.  I have to keep reminding myself because I have this problem with wanting to fit more and more in in a day.

She has such a great attitude when we only work for 15-20 minutes at a time and she knows she'll be finished in a couple of hours.  When her attitude starts slipping, I know that it's because I've been stretching the time lately.  

[musicianmom]

And remind myself that I'm parenting my daughter, not my 5-year-old self, even if we do look awfully similar at times.

We should start a social group, lol.

 

My other daughter is easier to parent. She bears no resemblance to me whatsoever.