caitlinsmom Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 I am going to loose it today (well every weekday at math time)! My two oldest kids do not get math. They just don't. I know there is all sorts of studies out there that say math is "get-able" but I'm calling it crap. My kids are stumped on the most basic of math problems ALL. THE. TIME. There is no mastery, there is no moving on, there's no retention. Its sheer hell every single day that we do math. Example: Working with ds8 on MUS Beta today. The problem is a basic regrouping problem: 155+265 His answer? 31110 Never mind that we have gone over carrying everyday for the last 3 weeks. He claims he forgets to carry. WHAT! How can a kid who has been doing math for 3 years now continue to "forget" to carry. Same thing with estimation. Problem: Estimate to the nearest hundreds 457. His answer was 450. Guess what, he forgot what he's supposed to do. Same goes with my dd10. Only she has progressed as far as multiplication. She does do multiplication, instead she just stares with a blank look on her face while she throws out random numbers. She is still working on 4th grade work because she can't move onto 5th because there is no understanding. We have been doing this stuff for years! How in the world are we ever going to move past this when they can't even get the basic skills!!!?? I am so frustrated right now. I have tried nearly every recommendation out there from games and flash cards, to mastery only, dvd's, hands on work, etc. Nothing seems to work. I've even learned new ways to teach this stuff in case I wasn't showing them in a way that works for them. Nope. Nothing. I am so freaking burned out on the math issues that I am ready to enroll them in public school just so I don't have to deal with it anymore. :( This is all in sharp contrast to their 5yo sister who naturally "gets" it and works just under my 3rd graders level (yes I know, different kids different abilities). Same teaching, same programs and she gets it. If I could afford it, I would hire private tutors just to teach them math. Someone who is "cool" and "knows" everything. What in the world do I do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FriedClams Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 First, deep breath. They're fairly young. You're being diligent. I'll type more when I'm on my computer but just wanted to encourage you. It's OK. You'll get through this!! Dont freak out just yet. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mom2bee Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 Give yourself and your kids a big, big, big hug. The kids still seem pretty young. Can you take some time off from math? Maybe a couple of months and give yourself some time to release yourself from the stress and anxiety that is associated with math time with your two oldest. I hope you get lots of great advice and find a solution that works for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 I'll let them do math on graph paper to get the place value aligned. For your son maybe use a place value chart and number line to revise for estimation. For your daughter, maybe let her fill out a blank 10 x 10 multiplication chart before she starts on her math. Instead of her spending time throwing out random numbers, she would have her own completed chart to look at while she do her math. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nart Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 Jump math. Teachers manual is free, you just have to buy the workbooks. It is a Canadian program that really breaks down math so that all kids can understand. www.jumpmath.org/cms/publications To see samples for homeschoolers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MomatHWTK Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 Try this: http://www.mhschool.com/math/mathconnects/grade4/sg4c1lesson1.html ETA: When my kids don't get a concept, I let them watch various instructors work the problem via online videos. It allows for multiple exposures to the concept without becoming tedious. Then I work the problems with them using a dry erase board and talking through each step. I will prompt them as to what to do and if they can't remember then I show them and we repeat this over several days or weeks until they can remember what to do when prompted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerryAtHope Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 Example: Working with ds8 on MUS Beta today. The problem is a basic regrouping problem: 155+265 His answer? 31110 Never mind that we have gone over carrying everyday for the last 3 weeks. He claims he forgets to carry. WHAT! How can a kid who has been doing math for 3 years now continue to "forget" to carry. Same thing with estimation. Problem: Estimate to the nearest hundreds 457. His answer was 450. Guess what, he forgot what he's supposed to do. Regrouping and carrying was difficult for my oldest too. I wasn't using MUS then, but I had Cuisenaire Rods and Base 10 blocks. We worked ONLY with blocks for days and days. He handed me groups of 10 ones to get a 10 rod, or groups of 10 rods to get a 10 flat, and so on. We counted out the blocks for problems just like the one you described, and we put all the blocks together and I had him trade in any time he had 10 or more of something. We talked through the problem JUST with blocks first. Do this until you don't have to tell your son what to do with the blocks. We followed the method: I show and tell, I tell, you do it, you do it and tell some, but I ask questions to help you remember all the steps, you tell I do it, you show and tell everything. When he can show and tell with the blocks, go to the next phase: On a new day, we started again with just blocks and a problem, but I wrote it out. When he had the problem figured with the blocks, then I would ask how many ones, tens, hundreds etc... he had. You might be able to ask your son this question with his 31110 answer, and see if he knows that what he means is 3 hundreds, 11 tens, and 10 ones, and if he can figure out how to write that. I showed how to write regrouping and talked through it. Then I again followed the method mentioned above. I didn't have my child do math on his own for this type of problem until he could show and tell everything both with the blocks and on paper. When he could teach it back to me, then I knew he really had it mastered. Turning notebook paper sideways (so the lines become columns) helped my kids with place value also. With estimation, you could again have him do this with blocks. Make 457. Have him say what numbers that is between (450 and 460). Make 450 and 460 and ask him which one 457 is closer to (physically line them up). Same goes with my dd10. Only she has progressed as far as multiplication. She does do multiplication, instead she just stares with a blank look on her face while she throws out random numbers. She is still working on 4th grade work because she can't move onto 5th because there is no understanding. Again, make her go back to the blocks until she can teach you with them, then work problems on paper until she can teach it back to you. The biggest thing that helped me when my kids would struggle with a concept (in math or otherwise) is to change my expectations. When I expected them not to forget, it made me upset when they did. When I expected something to be forgotten at some point in the day, it didn't upset me as much when it happened. Hang in there! Merry :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiramisu Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 ... We have been doing this stuff for years! How in the world are we ever going to move past this when they can't even get the basic skills!!!?? I am so frustrated right now. I have tried nearly every recommendation out there from games and flash cards, to mastery only, dvd's, hands on work, etc. Nothing seems to work. I've even learned new ways to teach this stuff in case I wasn't showing them in a way that works for them. Nope. Nothing. I am so freaking burned out on the math issues that I am ready to enroll them in public school just so I don't have to deal with it anymore. :( This is all in sharp contrast to their 5yo sister who naturally "gets" it and works just under my 3rd graders level (yes I know, different kids different abilities). Same teaching, same programs and she gets it. If I could afford it, I would hire private tutors just to teach them math. Someone who is "cool" and "knows" everything. What in the world do I do? Okay. I'll be the first to say it. What do you do? Get them evaluated. It's not you. I believe you are doing everything right and that you have tried everything you can. Don't blame yourself. Don't blame them. Find out what's really going on before you burn out any more and they become any more demoralized. I bet they already feel stupid, don't they? But they're not. There's a logical reason for their difficulty. Find out what it is, so you can help them. You know in your heart something is not right, as your experience with your 5 yo is confirming. So don't waste your money on anymore stuff to help them "get" math. Don't waste your money on a tutor until you find out what the issue is and get the right one who will help. Get to the root of it. You won't regret it. You need an answer that will take this weight off your shoulders. You can't carry this around anymore and neither can they. :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theYoungerMrsWarde Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 Sounds like they don't have very good number sense & place value sense. Dreambox is really good for those areas. I'd sign them up for the free trial for two weeks doing no other math and see how they do and if it's something you'd like to continue with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caitlinsmom Posted October 15, 2013 Author Share Posted October 15, 2013 Okay. I'll be the first to say it. What do you do? Get them evaluated. It's not you. I believe you are doing everything right and that you have tried everything you can. Don't blame yourself. Don't blame them. Find out what's really going on before you burn out any more and they become any more demoralized. I bet they already feel stupid, don't they? But they're not. There's a logical reason for their difficulty. Find out what it is, so you can help them. You know in your heart something is not right, as your experience with your 5 yo is confirming. So don't waste your money on anymore stuff to help them "get" math. Don't waste your money on a tutor until you find out what the issue is and get the right one who will help. Get to the root of it. You won't regret it. You need an answer that will take this weight off your shoulders. You can't carry this around anymore and neither can they. :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: What kind of practitioner/testing am I looking for? Everyone I know who has needed testing has gone through the PS system. I have no idea where to start or even what I am looking for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5LittleMonkeys Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 Research dyscalculia. Dd14 started out struggling with the exact issues your describing....knowing a procedure then suddenly forgetting it as if you've never taught the concept. I wish I'd known about dyscalculia when she was 7 instead of struggling until she was 13. Research dyscalculia...it may not be the answer but at least it would rule one thing out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theYoungerMrsWarde Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 I think it really depends on the kid. Yay! My first spammer reported. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiramisu Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 What kind of practitioner/testing am I looking for? Everyone I know who has needed testing has gone through the PS system. I have no idea where to start or even what I am looking for. Ideally, you should get a full evaluation by a neuropsychologist. They are considered the most thorough. Try to get a recommendation for one from other homeschooling parents if at all possible. You could also get testing through your ps. PS testing would be free, while neuropsychological testing is expensive (but very worth it, IMO). Besides math specific testing, you should get a full evaluation, which will include an IQ and achievement testing. The most common IQ test is the WISC IV. That test consists of ten subtests and significant variation in them can be a clue to a learning disability. The subtests also look at things like processing speed and working memory that can affect math to a great degree. Achievement testing will also look at math, and help determine if it's a math specific problem. I definitely think they should have tests done that look at visual processing. My dd's have processing quirks and math is the where they've had the most frustration. They have never experienced frustration reading, though they use their eyes for both reading and math. Writing can be frustrating, though, because it relies on visual-motor integration. Just something to think about since it affects math. I wish you the best. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbgrace Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 I agree that testing would be a good next step. We just completed testing at the school system. I haven't got the results for my son yet, but I know problems did show up in math. We decided to start there given it's free. I think I already have a better idea of my son's possible underlying issues just from what she shared with me immediately after each test session. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan in TX Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 I'd start at the beginning with a solid curriculum that has lots of review built in like Christian Light. You may not need to go all the way back to 1st grade...but I'd have them take the placement test and start them where they need to be, and if that is 1st grade so be it. Susan in TX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scuff Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 I agree with finding a curriculum that has a bit more review. My dd also struggles with math. She got bogged down with MM and MUS, but is now doing well with R&S. I've considered testing with her, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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