S/O - When do you decide you are done studying grammar?

[Chrysalis Academy]

Here's a question from the other end of the spectrum:  assuming that you feel the study of grammar is important, when do you decide you are done?

 

When I listen to SWB's writing lectures, she talks about learning grammar in service of good writing, and points out how diagramming can help a student correct errors in their writing.  Thing is, my dd10 has never made a grammatical error in her writing.  Not ever, that I can think of.  (Her writing has other issues - just not grammar).  She's done GrammarLand, Sentence Island, and MCT Town and Voyage.  She gets it.  She can pick out parts of speech, parts of the sentence, phrases & clauses.  She writes grammatically.  So are we done?  What would be the purpose of continuing to study grammar past this point? Would it add any value?

[8filltheheart]

Here's a question from the other end of the spectrum:  assuming that you feel the study of grammar is important, when do you decide you are done?

 

When I listen to SWB's writing lectures, she talks about learning grammar in service of good writing, and points out how diagramming can help a student correct errors in their writing.  Thing is, my dd10 has never made a grammatical error in her writing.  Not ever, that I can think of.  (Her writing has other issues - just not grammar).  She's done GrammarLand, Sentence Island, and MCT Town and Voyage.  She gets it.  She can pick out parts of speech, parts of the sentence, phrases & clauses.  She writes grammatically.  So are we done?  What would be the purpose of continuing to study grammar past this point? Would it add any value?

 

If she has mastered all the fine pts of grammar, I don't see the pt.   Personally, I have never had a child reach that pt, nor have I myself.   I'd be thrilled if I had.  :)

 

When my kids have mastered basic grammar, I start using books that touch on the less obvious pts.   Oops, Who's Whose Grammar Book is This Anyway is the one we used last yr. 

 

This is a copy of a post I made earlier this yr

 

We don't. I have been teaching grammar to my kids non-stop now for probably 16 yrs and I still am constantly learning new stuff. Maybe I am just a very slow learner!!

 

Today my grammar conversation with my 8th and 11th grader was about why this sentence is incorrect:

 

"Earlier the committee could have, and ultimately did, avoid the issue." (Oops, Who's Whose Grammar Book is This Anyway?" pg 374)

 

We are always discussing grammar, especially in context of quality writing.

 

We talk that way and they (and I) tend to write that way if we aren't proofreading very carefully.     Since I am the one grading their grammar, the only errors that are identified are the ones I notice.   I teach them and reinforce my own skills at the same time.

 

FWIW, I don't use grammar books that just address simple parts of speech.  We use books that address more complicated pts within the context of writing.   The same goes for punctuating complex sentences.

 

ETA:   I personally do not believe that MCT teaches anything other than basic grammar.   When I purchased the Voyage level, there was nothing new in it for my dd and we moved on.

[Crimson Wife]

Starting last year in 5th, I switched grammar from being a year-round subject to being something we do only in the spring semester leading up to standardized testing. DD had completed FLL 1/2, MCT "Town", Killgallon "Story Grammar" and "Grammar for Middle School", the Mark Twain Media sentence diagramming workbook, one of the Evan-Moor "Daily Paragraph Editing" workbooks, a bunch of chapters out of Arthur Whimbey's "Thinking Through Grammar", and a bunch of chapters out of Warriner's. She's got the basics down and her writing has very few grammatical errors. At this point, the main thing she needs out of grammar study is test prep (and that because we want her to be a competitive candidate for selective colleges and possibly high schools).

 

Last year we used Sadlier-Oxford "Grammar and Writing for Standardized Tests" plus some of the Write Source "Daily Language Workouts Grade 10". In spring semester of this year, she'll do more of the Write Source workbook and I just found an unused copy of an earlier edition of the Sadlier-Oxford workbook at a local used bookstore. The exercises are similar to the current edition but not the exact same questions so it won't be redundant to do both.

 

I know many HSers don't care about standardized test scores but I view them as gatekeepers to educational opportunities that I'd like my kids to have access to if possible.

[Penelope]

I was a "natural" writer a a child, and at ten probably didn't make many mistakes in written grammar, either. But I wasn't writing twenty-page papers or complicated essays then, either. :)

 

My 11 yo also comes by grammar pretty naturally and easily, but I am certain he has more to learn. My plan for middle school is to use Analytical Grammar, which is a great review while introducing a few new things, but then in 8th and 9th to use something else for the minutiae.

 

I still am not sure that AG is the most thorough, and I think MCT is even less complete, unless the levels past Voyage have content with significantly more depth.

[Rosie_0801]

I don't know when we'll start since my dd isn't fully verbal yet, but I don't know when we'll stop either. I think, if you want any semblance of mastery in another language, you must need all the grammar you can fit in your head.

[lllll]

..

[Chrysalis Academy]

Good points, all.  I should say that dd has mastered basic grammar, and I can't see any point in repeating the same stuff over and over - which is what I see happening in FLL and in MCT's grammar books.  At some point, a kid starts to feel insulted if you keep "teaching" them the same thing over and over!

 

I think we'll spend time focusing on Killgallon's Grammar for Middle School - which is grammar applied to writing style.  And then we're probably ready to dive into some of the writing style/grammar books like Woe is I, The Transitive Vampire, Eats, Shoots & Leaves, etc.  

[crazyforlatin]

All I know for sure is that we are stopping by the end of 8th grade. We have done some grammar from when DD was very young as Henle requires it and if we use a few more of MCT books (or some others) for the next 5 years, then we will not be studying more grammar in high school, as there are other subjects that are more important. We don't even study grammar on a consistent basis because it's not really her weak area.

[Mom0012]

We just switched to AG, so while I intend to be done with formal grammar instruction by the end of 8th grade, we will use their review books in high school. I think those books have you do one page every week or two.

[Haiku]

By high school, grammar study will be directly tied to the writing dd does for school. We will most likely just use a resource as-needed, not a daily study.

 

But I would not think I was done if my 10-year-old weren't making grammar mistakes. At that point I would tend to feel that her writing was not especially sophisticated if there were never errors. The types of errors my dd makes are things we usually have to look up because they are somewhat obscure or we haven't covered them yet. Just knowing parts of speech doesn't, IMO, substitute for instruction in advanced grammatical constructions.

 

I was a professional writer and textbook editor, and I still sometimes make grammar errors or have to look things up!

 

My ds is a different story. He has language and processing delays, so I won't be surprised if we do daily grammar instruction throughout high school.

[Crimson Wife]

Killgallon really helped my DD improve the variety of her sentence structures. So I definitely recommend it!

[Chrysalis Academy]

By high school, grammar study will be directly tied to the writing dd does for school. We will most likely just use a resource as-needed, not a daily study.

 

But I would not think I was done if my 10-year-old weren't making grammar mistakes. At that point I would tend to feel that her writing was not especially sophisticated if there were never errors. The types of errors my dd makes are things we usually have to look up because they are somewhat obscure or we haven't covered them yet. Just knowing parts of speech doesn't, IMO, substitute for instruction in advanced grammatical constructions.

 

I was a professional writer and textbook editor, and I still sometimes make grammar errors or have to look things up!

 

My ds is a different story. He has language and processing delays, so I won't be surprised if we do daily grammar instruction throughout high school.

 

Exactly!  She has the basics down, so it's time to focus on making sentences more varied and interesting - this is why I'm thinking Killgallon is a better bet than continuing with a very basic grammar program that just has you identifying parts of speech, parts of sentence, etc.  The only grammar programs I've looked at closely are FLL - too repetitive and boring - MCT - which didn't introduce anything new between Town and Voyage, so I hesitate to continue spending money on the upper levels - and KISS - too  :confused: .  Is there something else out there besides Kilgallon that you are using at this level, Tara, that you feel teaches skills that transfer to your dd's writing?

 

 

Killgallon really helped my DD improve the variety of her sentence structures. So I definitely recommend it!

 

That's what I'm thinking!  Not bailing on grammar entirely, but specifically and explicitly tying it to writing better sentences.

 

 

Maybe I'm missing something about what is typically included in a middle grades grammar program - in SWB's middle grade lectures she talks about outlining being included as part of grammar.  That surprised me a little bit.  Also she hammers on the importance of diagramming.  I wonder if it's worth getting a resource that specifically works on that skill?  

 

Anyway, my thought is to do Kilgallon's Grammar for Middle School and then perhaps spend time reviewing the grammar resources I listed above.  Trying to decide whether to do something for diagramming, too.

[Haiku]

Is there something else out there besides Kilgallon that you are using at this level, Tara, that you feel teaches skills that transfer to your dd's writing?

 

Well, I don't feel that we have covered all the advanced grammar that I would like to cover initially, so dd is using Rules of the Game 2 and 3 (from EPS) to finish up our initial foray into grammar. In 7th and 8th grades I plan to have her complete Stewart English. I know it has gotten some bad reviews, and I know people say it's for older kids, but dd is a natural with grammar and language, and she has looked at and approved the samples, so that's our plan. She didn't like the Kilgallon stuff. She said it was boring.

 

After Stewart, I'm just going to get a good grammar resource book. I don't yet know what that will be.

[Chrysalis Academy]

These look interesting, Tara.  Thanks.

[Crimson Wife]

I have "The Art of Styling Sentences" by K.D. Sullivan & Ann Longknife on my shelf. It teaches the 20 basic sentence patterns but be forewarned that the examples are pretty horrible (not like the literary ones in Killgallon).

 

Harry Noden's "Image Grammar" is supposed to be similar to Killgallon as well but I have no personal experience with it.