Catherine Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 $117 on Abebooks!! I can't believe it. He tells me he even matched the ISBN numbers so he'd get the right edition. He thinks this site has the best textbook prices-he told me that there were at least 20 copies of his math text offered for sale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In The Great White North Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 Did he not need online access for any of his classes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Posted August 27, 2013 Author Share Posted August 27, 2013 Did he not need online access for any of his classes? I'm not sure what you mean-online access to what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klmama Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 Some college texts have an online component (foreign language, for example). Students are required to log in and do exercises there, submit essays to the instructor, etc. Generally, the used books don't have a new log-in, so students have to purchase that separately, often causing the whole expense to be higher than if purchased new together. Hope your ds isn't in that boat! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Posted August 28, 2013 Author Share Posted August 28, 2013 Some college texts have an online component (foreign language, for example). Students are required to log in and do exercises there, submit essays to the instructor, etc. Generally, the used books don't have a new log-in, so students have to purchase that separately, often causing the whole expense to be higher than if purchased new together. Hope your ds isn't in that boat! He is taking a German lit course-I will definitely ask him if he needs this-oops! I hope not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nansk Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 I learnt about Abebooks only this year via this forum. I love the site and have found older editions of several excellent textbooks for under $10 each. However, I am increasingly seeing new textbook editions tied to an online component - Maths, Science, languages. I am not sure of the value-addition of having to do online quizzes and submit assignments online. It is just another way for textbook publishers to force students to buy the newest edition every year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 Dd's spanish class is using a text with an online component. I think it replaces what used to be done in the language lab back in our days. Yes, I had one unscrupulous fellow sell me a book supposedly with a code and the code was USED. So if he needs codes, they must say UNSCRATCHED codes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 However, I am increasingly seeing new textbook editions tied to an online component - Maths, Science, languages. I am not sure of the value-addition of having to do online quizzes and submit assignments online. It is just another way for textbook publishers to force students to buy the newest edition every year. No, this is not just a trick by textbook companies to force current editions on buyers. It is a feature used by many colleges especially for large courses, because grading by hand is not feasible for hundreds of students. I have 130 students for whom I grade assignments by hand, pretty much the limit. Could not do it with a class of 300. Those resources are a response to demand by the colleges. (It is possible to have structures in place that hold students accountable for homework and reading without resorting to online systems, even for large courses; you can have a system of recitations and do spot checks. But with budget cuts and hiring freezes, we will see more schools going to online systems, even if the feedback is inferior to that of an actual human, mainly because it limits the problem complexity and can not evaluate a complete solution, only bite sized pieces.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nansk Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 No, this is not just a trick by textbook companies to force current editions on buyers. It is a feature used by many colleges especially for large courses, because grading by hand is not feasible for hundreds of students.... (It is possible to have structures in place that hold students accountable for homework and reading without resorting to online systems, even for large courses; you can have a system of recitations and do spot checks. But with budget cuts and hiring freezes, we will see more schools going to online systems, even if the feedback is inferior to that of an actual human, mainly because it limits the problem complexity and can not evaluate a complete solution, only bite sized pieces.) Thank you for sharing your POV as a college teacher. I do understand now. I can't imagine how automated grading gives any benefit to the student (the one who is paying hundreds of dollars to the college.) :( I read an old essay by Jacques Barzun just yesterday that made this very point. He was of course criticizing the multiple-choice tests in schools. I was not aware that even at college-level students are being subjected to automated grading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebastian (a lady) Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 Last year we used Mastering Physics a bit. This online access site has versions for a number of different textbooks. I agree with Regentrude that feedback was limited. However there were problems where each step was graded so there was some possibility of working through the problem with guided help. What I did think was somewhat helpful was that there was immediate feedback on if they were doing the problem correctly. That could be better than waiting for the next class and problem review to find out you don't understand. It would be easy to fall behind. One thing I disliked was that it seemed to encourage one son to try to do the problems in his head and just guess if he got it wrong the first time. Were we using it again (with a non college student) I would require problems to be worked out fully on paper before being entered into the computer. That gives something to check for errors, something to take to office hours or study sessions and something to mark up as needing review before an exam. I'm not sure my students understood how to use the online component as a tool for learning rather than something to just get through. (Which is really my fault as their teacher/guide). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 Thank you for sharing your POV as a college teacher. I do understand now. I can't imagine how automated grading gives any benefit to the student (the one who is paying hundreds of dollars to the college.) :( I read an old essay by Jacques Barzun just yesterday that made this very point. He was of course criticizing the multiple-choice tests in schools. I was not aware that even at college-level students are being subjected to automated grading. If it is done well, it can be very valuable. Of course you can't grade essays by computer - but math and physics and chemistry, yes, it can be done. I can construct a very good multiple choice exam that forces the students to still work out complex problems and tests whether they fall into common misconceptions, by a careful choice of the incorrect answers. I can get a lot of insight about their thinking from a multiple choice question. It is only much harder to make a good multiple choice question that accomplishes this, than a fully worked out problem. (We use both.) I can use multiple choice quizzes that test whether the student has completed his pre-class reading. I do them on paper - they could easily be done by computer. You can argue that student should not need a reading quiz to do their reading, but the reality is that most won't read if they are not forced to. Clicker quizzes are a standard now in most large classrooms; they are graded automatically and display the results immediately for the instructor. They can be a good learning tool because it gives the instructor prompt feedback about student understanding (raising hands should accomplish the same, but not as precisely, and it puts students on the spot). I use discussion questions that could be answered by clicker; I just avoid it because of technical issues. And this technology can easily be used for attendance and quizzes, because it transmits the data directly to the gradebook. Some online homework systems are quite good and incorporate tutorial elements. I still do not like them as much, mainly because of the way the students work with the systems - instead of working the problems out on the blackboard in discussion groups, they hunch over their laptops and punch in stuff, but again, who can grade homework for 400 students??? I do not consider grading homework to be the main point of a college education anyway; ideally, students would simply do their homework because it is assigned, and compare their solution to a posted sample solution. I dislike much about the electronic systems, but it is mainly in the implementation. When done well, it can be a useful resource. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 . Were we using it again (with a non college student) I would require problems to be worked out fully on paper before being entered into the computer. That gives something to check for errors, something to take to office hours or study sessions and something to mark up as needing review before an exam. This, exactly. Students should still be made to use "oldfashioned" tools to work the problem (instructors have ways to achieve that). But after that, putting answers to steps, and a final answer into a computer to be graded does not diminish the learning experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G5052 Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 I teach IT at a local community college, and I love the online components. I set up multiple choice quizzes that they're supposed to take before class to show me that they've read the material. I don't have to take away from class time to give quizzes, and if they do them open book, that's fine. It gets them interacting with the material before they show up. Then the actual hands-on work is uploaded for immediate grading. Instead of handing out disks and spending hours grading them all (which is what I did 15 years ago when I started), they get the instructions and start files online, and the system handles the grading. I can set it up so they get multiple tries on the homework assignments so that they can correct their work, and then only one try on exams. The online component also has all of the practice files that go with the textbook so they can work through the class exercises that we do again if they have problems. They also have flash cards that can be downloaded, and MP3 chapter summaries. To get them going a little deeper, they have required online posts on various ethical and social issues, and I do a few short response questions on exams. So yes, the students complain about having to buy the access code separately if they get a used book, but I use it a lot. IMHO they get their money's worth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In The Great White North Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 Whether it's useful or not, it is a way to shift more costs to the student, like additional lab fees, diploma fees, transcript fees . Grading and teaching are university expenses. Books are student expenses. The online component shifts part of the grading and teaching expenses (allowing them to have larger classes and hire fewer professors) on to the student. After $50,000, they still nickel and dime the students. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peach Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 I rented all mine from Amazon this semester, and the ones with online components came with new codes. Mostly intro classes so none I will want to keep. It was great though, I got out for a total of 255 instead of the 600 I'd have spent at the campus bookstore :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 I bought DS's books new from Amazon. I saved hundreds of dollars vs. the campus bookstore. The used books weren't priced competitively at all. I didn't want to risk getting a mislabeled book (either the wrong edition or incorrect condition ) to save $10. I did have to buy an Econ book with online access. It was $198 on amazon vs 215 at school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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