The AOPS roller coaster...

[rbk mama]

So far my experience with AOPS has been a bit crazy.  When we started with Intro to Algebra, it was VERY tough for my then 6th grader, and I panicked, but we kept on.  And then the next year, starting where we had left off for the summer, mid-way through that tome, DS did fine, sailing through with no trouble.  Huh.  Then we began the Geometry text (toward the end of last school year).  Yikes.  It has been really tough for him.  I know RR says this is one of the most challenging books, and it's been rough.  After about a month or so DS came to me in frustration saying he doesn't feel like he's learning anything because he sometimes ends up spending the entire hour on ONE problem.  He was feeling pretty hopeless, so we decided to drop AOPS for a bit and started Jacobs Geometry.  DS had finished the first 7 chapters of AOPS Geometry.  Jacobs was ridiculously easy for him.  He started flipping through the book to find where to begin with problems he didn't know how to solve, and he ended up in the last few chapters!  What??  (And even in the last chapter he felt like if he thought a bit he could figure out every problem.)  It was really encouraging to him (and to me), to see that even though he felt like he was getting no where with AOPS, he actually WAS learning quite a lot of Geometry.  So here we are yet again, staring at the AOPS mountain, gathering up courage to re-embark.

 

I'm wondering if there are others out there with similar experience?  I had decided to drop off the AOPS wagon, but now of course I am re-thinking that, as is DS.  He has a renewed respect for AOPS.  We do have the C&P and the Number Theory books, so maybe we will take a break and do one of those.  He is in 8th this year, and I really have no idea if we'll be able to get through the AOPS sequence in time for him to complete calculus for calc-based physics in high school.  On the other hand, it seems better to try than to race through the traditional textbooks.  Anyone else in this boat?  I feel like most people using AOPS have kids that are pretty much sailing through - which is definitely not us.  Wish there were some kind of middle ground curriculum out there!

 

 

[8filltheheart]

  I feel like most people using AOPS have kids that are pretty much sailing through - which is definitely not us.  Wish there were some kind of middle ground curriculum out there!

 

I don't know who you have been talking to about AoPS, but the "sailing through" is definitely not our experience, nor the experience of those we know.  (I think that anyone telling you they are pretty much sailing through AoPS is either not doing all of the challenge problems or is not being honest unless they are truly mathematical geniuses!)   Our ds would spend an hour or more on a single problem routinely!   Some of the problems he would take walks and think about, sleep on, and think some more before he was able to sit down an finally tackle the problem.

 

FWIW, I don't know what is the middle ground between AoPS and other curriculum.   Jacobs was not a fit here, so it is one that we knocked off our list.   Foerster's books for alg/pre-cal sequence were solid prep for my chemical engineer ds.   AoPS the perfect fit for my theory loving ds (the one who has zero problems spending hrs contemplating problems).

[rbk mama]

I don't know who you have been talking to about AoPS, but the "sailing through" is definitely not our experience, nor the experience of those we know.  (I think that anyone telling you they are pretty much sailing through AoPS is either not doing all of the challenge problems or is not being honest unless they are truly mathematical geniuses!)   Our ds would spend an hour or more on a single problem routinely!   Some of the problems he would take walks and think about, sleep on, and think some more before he was able to sit down an finally tackle the problem.

 

FWIW, I don't know what is the middle ground between AoPS and other curriculum.   Jacobs was not a fit here, so it is one that we knocked off our list.   Foerster's books for alg/pre-cal sequence were solid prep for my chemical engineer ds.   AoPS the perfect fit for my theory loving ds (the one who has zero problems spending hrs contemplating problems).

 

How do you get through the book in a year if you spend an hour or more on a single problem -- routinely?  I've been OK with him not being able to solve every problem (even some of the non-starred ones), but when it becomes OFTEN that he's working for an hour on one problem?  That's when I wonder if we'll be able to complete the entire sequence.

[8filltheheart]

My ds literally spent hours per day on math.   Not sitting down at his desk, though.   Literally, he would go walking, rock climbing, jogging, etc and think about math while he was doing them.  He likes to think.

 

FWIW, he didn't start AoPS until 8th grade.  (I think maturity helps).   At that pt he took C&P and alg 3.   He completed at least 1 course per yr (those in 8th, pre-cal in 9th, and cal in 10th).

 

 

[Dmmetler]

I'm a little worried about that this year-for this fall, at least, DD needs to do less math and focus on science, and hours on a single problem isn't going to make that work. I'm hoping that the fact that she did Key to Algebra and LoF Pre-Algebra before doing AOPS pre-Algebra will keep the first couple of months fairly smooth sailing (I know there are some topics later in the book that she isn't familiar with-they're the main reason I decided to go with AOPS Pre-Algebra before jumping into Algebra-that and, it puts off having to feel a need to make sure it's a valid high school class for another year).

 

 

 

[rbk mama]

Others here have said that it takes more than a year to get through some of those books. 

 

Yes.  We took nearly two years to get through Intro to Algebra, and I doubt we will get through Geometry in one year.  This is why I'm not sure we'll make it through the entire sequence.

 

 

My ds literally spent hours per day on math.   .

 

I was just talking with DS about this, that maybe we need to expect more than one hour/ day, since this is high school level math.  He enjoys math, but has other interests that make him a bit reluctant to spend hours on it. 

 

I think of "sailing through" when I think of the PACE of those online classes!  There's no way we could do those.

[8filltheheart]

 

I think of "sailing through" when I think of the PACE of those online classes!  There's no way we could do those.

 

Ds did take the online classes except for pre-cal where he had a private math teacher.   The pace of the classes is fast.   It definitely wasn't sailing through.   It was a lot (and I do mean a lot) of time commitment and hard work.  

 

FWIW, regardless of the praises sung for AoPS and the excellence of the program, I firmly believe it is not for every student.   (WTMers tend to be groupies for some reason and I don't mean just for AoPS, I mean for curriculum that is praised in general.  Bad practice.)   For example, ds took the online cal class, but he still had to spend hours outside of that class prepping for the AP BC exam b/c the AP exam requires the FRQ to be written in a certain form, he needed practice on the simpler fast paced problems, etc.    Not every student is going to be willing to commit to what it takes to do it all.   My dd, a 9th grader, is one of those.   She could easily follow in her brother's footsteps, but she doesn't like AoPS.   I just don't believe it is a hill to die on.   She doesn't need AoPS.    For those that love it......definitely.   But, those that don't want to spend hrs on math, I think they should go a different path b/c it will take that amt of time for most kids.

[8filltheheart]

Would you elaborate on the bolded?  I'm afraid of stuff like this (that I won't be preparing my son for the right thing).  I just don't know what the right thing is. 

 

Thank goodness I have time.  But I do like to have some idea as to where he needs to go.

 

The AoPS class focuses on cal and goes into a LOT of material that isn't on the AP exam.   (ds did "sail through" his multivariable cal and diffEQ classes b/c between all of the upper level AoPS classes he was MORE than prepared.)   HOWEVER, the AP exam covers very specific material, expects things to be written in specific format, etc.   There is a calculator section (ds never used a calculator for his AoPS problems, etc).  

 

He started prepping for the AP exam in March and spent quite a bit of time working on the procedures for the AP exam and pacing for the test over Mar-the test in May.   He actually worked with the same math teacher he had for AoPS pre-cal.   (I couldn't have assisted him and pacing is a huge issue for this ds since is my dyslexic and can spend more time reading than he has to complete tests.)

 

Originally we had registered him for AP BC through PAH instead of AoPS.    But, after the first 2 weeks of the class, ds was bored to tears and frustrated with the amt of busywork and plug-chug problems.   So, we dropped the class and switched back to AoPS.   For him, I am glad we did.   But, like I said, it isn't going to be a path every student is going to want to take. 

[rbk mama]

 Not every student is going to be willing to commit to what it takes to do it all.   My dd, a 9th grader, is one of those.   She could easily follow in her brother's footsteps, but she doesn't like AoPS.   I just don't believe it is a hill to die on.   She doesn't need AoPS.    For those that love it......definitely.   But, those that don't want to spend hrs on math, I think they should go a different path b/c it will take that amt of time for most kids.

 

Yes, I can see this.  I wish my DS was one way or the other!  He is somewhere in between I think. :willy_nilly:  

[8filltheheart]

So are there practice exams out there or books to prepare for the AP exams?

 

What are the benefits of taking the exams? We didn't have that where I went to high school (100,000 years ago) so I'm not familiar with them.

:) Your lucky I am sitting watching dd doing her chem lab. ;)

 

Yes, there are lots of AP prep books out there.

 

The advantage is they can receive college credit for classes based on their scores. For example, ds made a 5 on both the BC and chem exams. Depending on the school, he could/will receive 2 semesters of credit for chem (8 hrs) and 2 semesters of credit for cal (again 8 hrs). So those 2 exams generate 16 hrs of college credit. Not all schools give credit for AP exams, but a large number do.

[quark]

We don't use AoPS as a core curriculum. We pick and choose problems according to son's interest. He did have a smooth journey through Counting and Probability but he hit several difficult chapters in Number Theory and Intro to Algebra.

 

We used Jurgensen for Geometry. My son worked on a number of A and B problems and almost all the C problems. The C problems in Jurgensen are HARD. I'm chiming in here because it sounds familiar for a child to spend hours, even days, on a single problem. One problem that he couldn't solve was left to stew on for three months. Another took about four months. My son works with a tutor and the tutor assured me that this is normal for kids who really want to get into the nitty-gritty of math, especially for the deeper thinkers. He works with a lot of younger, advanced kiddos and has years of experience behind him so I am hoping he is right.

 

Well, three months later, something clicked and son was able to prove the difficult problems. It was a defining moment and taught ME the value of patience. It really turned the whole "finish every lesson in the same day" mantra around for me and I understood that when kids want super "chewable" problems and have the right attitude to work hard at them, it doesn't make sense to follow the traditional mindset of expecting them to finish a lesson per day. This is just my personal experience though. Every kid is different. FWIW son is on the >99.9 percentile for processing speed but he really takes his time with math.

 

After son finished Jurgensen, his tutor moved him to Coxeter's Geometry Revisited which is (according to the tutor) college level geometry. They ended up spending 6 months on Chapter 1 alone lol. Now they are taking a break but I can tell you that in the last 6 months, son's maturity has leaped several levels. Things that were hard for him before, even writing an essay for literature, come more easily now.

 

I am so glad we decided to go with quality, proof-heavy programs for geometry. It's been a wonderful exercise program for his brain. :)

[quark]

Ds did take the online classes except for pre-cal where he had a private math teacher.   The pace of the classes is fast.   It definitely wasn't sailing through.   It was a lot (and I do mean a lot) of time commitment and hard work.  

 

FWIW, regardless of the praises sung for AoPS and the excellence of the program, I firmly believe it is not for every student.   (WTMers tend to be groupies for some reason and I don't mean just for AoPS, I mean for curriculum that is praised in general.  Bad practice.)   For example, ds took the online cal class, but he still had to spend hours outside of that class prepping for the AP BC exam b/c the AP exam requires the FRQ to be written in a certain form, he needed practice on the simpler fast paced problems, etc.    Not every student is going to be willing to commit to what it takes to do it all.   My dd, a 9th grader, is one of those.   She could easily follow in her brother's footsteps, but she doesn't like AoPS.   I just don't believe it is a hill to die on.   She doesn't need AoPS.    For those that love it......definitely.   But, those that don't want to spend hrs on math, I think they should go a different path b/c it will take that amt of time for most kids.

 

Thank you for saying this 8. I actually do have a die-hard math kid. But he is not as keen on AoPS as a lot of other mathy kids on this board are. He does not dislike it. In fact, he really enjoys the challenge problems whenever he reaches for an AoPS book (we have several at home and he cycles through them, doesn't touch some at all for months and others not ever eversince I purchased them lol). I sometimes feel insecure (when I am reading posts here) that he is not an AoPS addicted kiddo. :P But then I also read posts from other moms whose kids didn't use AoPS religiously or at all but still majored in math, and very importantly adore the subject even if they didn't major in it, and I feel much better.

 

Just a note though, you can opt not to use AoPS, and use something like Jurgensen or Coxeter or those Dover math books written for college freshman/ interested adults and still spend hours on math. There are some very good problems in these books and I don't see my son losing out on the discovery method at all. I console myself that there have been hundreds and hundreds of homeschoolers who benefited from a superb math education even before AoPS came along. I still put a plug for AoPS whenever I can on other boards but I have to add this disclaimer that I too believe it's not necessarily for every child, even the mathy ones.

[wapiti]

Yes.  We took nearly two years to get through Intro to Algebra, and I doubt we will get through Geometry in one year.  This is why I'm not sure we'll make it through the entire sequence.

 

Note that Intro to Algebra includes a good chunk of Algebra 2 in addition to all of Algebra 1.

 

It may be worth looking into how long the rest of the sequence has taken others and exactly what those books contain.  This thread might be a place to start http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/483669-looking-for-help-with-aops-planning-for-hs

[boscopup]

I'm a little worried about that this year-for this fall, at least, DD needs to do less math and focus on science, and hours on a single problem isn't going to make that work. I'm hoping that the fact that she did Key to Algebra and LoF Pre-Algebra before doing AOPS pre-Algebra will keep the first couple of months fairly smooth sailing (I know there are some topics later in the book that she isn't familiar with-they're the main reason I decided to go with AOPS Pre-Algebra before jumping into Algebra-that and, it puts off having to feel a need to make sure it's a valid high school class for another year).

 

To the bolded... The Prealgebra book isn't that bad. I have personally gone through about half the book so far, and I have had no problems that take hours to think about. My son is still early in Chapter 2, but so far, nothing that takes hours for him either. I think the upper level books are more likely to have that.

 

And when we take an AoPS break and do a lesson in Dolciani Prealgebra, it seems so incredibly easy. DS sails through THAT after doing AoPS. Definitely no sailing in AoPS though. :lol:

 

[Arcadia]

Just a note though, you can opt not to use AoPS, and use something like Jurgensen or Coxeter or those Dover math books written for college freshman/ interested adults and still spend hours on math. There are some very good problems in these books and I don't see my son losing out on the discovery method at all.

:iagree:

I add to that past years math olympiad problems for entertainment. The aim is for my kids to dare to try and hopefully persevere.

I did find their computational speed slowed down as the prealgebra book does not have that many questions. I just supplement with drills now and than.

[rbk mama]

 

Note that Intro to Algebra includes a good chunk of Algebra 2 in addition to all of Algebra 1.

 

It may be worth looking into how long the rest of the sequence has taken others and exactly what those books contain.  This thread might be a place to start http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/483669-looking-for-help-with-aops-planning-for-hs

 

 

Thanks for this.  Yes, I have read this thread, and the one linked within it that details some of the chapters that could be skipped.  Definitely something I am considering!

[rbk mama]

We used Jurgensen for Geometry. My son worked on a number of A and B problems and almost all the C problems. The C problems in Jurgensen are HARD. I'm chiming in here because it sounds familiar for a child to spend hours, even days, on a single problem. One problem that he couldn't solve was left to stew on for three months. Another took about four months. My son works with a tutor and the tutor assured me that this is normal for kids who really want to get into the nitty-gritty of math, especially for the deeper thinkers. He works with a lot of younger, advanced kiddos and has years of experience behind him so I am hoping he is right.

 

Well, three months later, something clicked and son was able to prove the difficult problems. It was a defining moment and taught ME the value of patience. It really turned the whole "finish every lesson in the same day" mantra around for me and I understood that when kids want super "chewable" problems and have the right attitude to work hard at them, it doesn't make sense to follow the traditional mindset of expecting them to finish a lesson per day. This is just my personal experience though. Every kid is different. FWIW son is on the >99.9 percentile for processing speed but he really takes his time with math.

 

After son finished Jurgensen, his tutor moved him to Coxeter's Geometry Revisited which is (according to the tutor) college level geometry. They ended up spending 6 months on Chapter 1 alone lol. Now they are taking a break but I can tell you that in the last 6 months, son's maturity has leaped several levels. Things that were hard for him before, even writing an essay for literature, come more easily now.

 

I am so glad we decided to go with quality, proof-heavy programs for geometry. It's been a wonderful exercise program for his brain. :)

 

 

Maybe we should have tried Jurgensen.  Jacobs has 3 sets of problems, and the 3rd set are the best ones.  DS liked these, but they were still easy compared to AOPS. Its this problem-solving ability that AOPS excels in developing that makes me want to keep trying.  DS says that its helping in all areas of study and in life in general - like you said, a wonderful exercise program for his brain!

[Luckymama]

I've been thinking about this thread all day. I'm going to do a bunch of individual replies because multiquote on an ipad is a pain with more than 2 or 3 quotes.

 

...After about a month or so DS came to me in frustration saying he doesn't feel like he's learning anything because he sometimes ends up spending the entire hour on ONE problem... It was really encouraging to him (and to me), to see that even though he felt like he was getting no where with AOPS, he actually WAS learning quite a lot of Geometry... I feel like most people using AOPS have kids that are pretty much sailing through - which is definitely not us. Wish there were some kind of middle ground curriculum out there!

Dd has been using AoPS for a while. She did PreAlgebra in sixth grade as her second time through PreAlgebra (she started homeschooling in fifth; we used a traditional textbook then). Since it was her second time she did fly through the book, even doing all the challenge problems, so she began algebra that spring. Last year in seventh grade she finished the equivalent of algebra 1 plus four more chapters into "algebra 2" and Intro to Counting and Probability before starting the AoPS online geometry class in March.

 

I guess to some she would appear to be sailing through, just because she has covered a lot of ground. However she spends 1.5 hours on math every week day! Some problems come very easily to her (like she answers in less time than it takes to read it) while others can take hours over several days. After about 30 minutes of no or little progress she stops, moves on to another problem, then returns to the tricky problem the next day or later in the week. I remember one proof with right triangles that she tried on three separate days and was getting nowhere. I went upstairs to shower that next morning and came back down to see her furiously writing on the whiteboard. She said the answer just popped into her head :)

 

I think these incredibly difficult problems show the student the value of persevering, of trying method after method until finally succeeding.

[Luckymama]

Our ds would spend an hour or more on a single problem routinely! Some of the problems he would take walks and think about, sleep on, and think some more before he was able to sit down an finally tackle the problem..

There are at least three problems that stump dd each week. She solved one while at ballet intensive all day earlier this summer :lol:

 

I intervened the first time she faced a doozy of a problem. She was SO frustrated! I told her to return to the problem the following day, that sometimes our brains need a break to see alternative solutions.

 

There are still problems dd is unable to solve. If I can do them, I will provide hints similar to those in the backs of the books.

[Luckymama]

I was just talking with DS about this, that maybe we need to expect more than one hour/ day, since this is high school level math. He enjoys math, but has other interests that make him a bit reluctant to spend hours on it.

 

I think of "sailing through" when I think of the PACE of those online classes! There's no way we could do those.

As I said earlier, dd has been spending 1.5 hours a day on math. This fall she will bump that up to 2 hours a day because she wants to add Intro to Number Theory as a half-credit course.

 

The pace of geometry is blistering. I don't know if she could have maintained the intensity if the class were Sept-March instead of March-Sept. She has had plenty of non-geometry downtime this summer, downtime that she wouldn't have during the school year with other classes and outside commitments (FLL, Science Olympiad, ballet).

 

I don't know if she'll take any other AoPS online classes. The timing is very difficult, 7:30-9pm for the east coast, when she has ballet from 6-8/9pm several evenings a week. I would love for her to take more because I feel this class has stretched her more than just using the textbook ever would.

[Luckymama]

So are there practice exams out there or books to prepare for the AP exams?

 

What are the benefits of taking the exams? We didn't have that where I went to high school (100,000 years ago) so I'm not familiar with them.

Come hang out on the high school board. People are always talking about APs!

 

For my privately-schooled older kids the benefits of the APs were:

---showing that they took the highest level coursework possible at the school. College admission and scholarship competition is fierce!

---testing out of various requirements or placing out of lower level courses. Ds entered college basically as a sophomore because he had so many credits from his AP scores of 5s and 4s. He will still spend four years in college but now he has the luxury of extra space in his schedule for two minors and for interesting classes (like 2 geology classes).

 

It is important to note that he cannot "use" his AP credit for courses in his major (specifically the 5 on Calc doesn't count-----dd18, an English major, cannot "use" her AP English scores for credit either) because the department has specific requirements. This is very very common among colleges and universities.

 

Dd18's 5 on AP Psych enables her to skip prerequisites for certain psychology courses she wants to take. She can jump right into a 20 person class without first taking the 200 person Intro to Psych class!

[Mukmuk]

I'm very grateful for this thread!

 

Sometime from April, we had a bunch of personal issues (my dad was ill, I started up a new business) and homeschooling got sidetracked. We're having a slow start to the year with a review of the 15 chaps of Algebra that ds completed, after which he wants to start the AOPS Intro to Geometry class. Ds is very keen because he has a few friends signing up, but I worry that he's not up to it. Ds is slow! Right now, algebra revisions is going fairly well. He stalled in some places, but after some thinking or a quick flip through the book, he's actually doing fairly well (hurray for Alcumus!). But I don't think Geometry is the same :(.

 

I want him to lead in his education, but at the same time, I'm feeling uneasy about this decision. I had my heart set on hiring a private tutor for Geometry *after* Algebra II, so this development really throws a spanner in the works.  I'm packaging it so that if he has to bow out, he won't feel so bad, and I can sign him up for another class that he may enjoy better. He enjoyed the AMC8 prep class earlier this year, but that was a class that didn't need any prep. Really crossing my fingers now that I'm making the right decision  :001_unsure: .

[melmichigan]

I'm very grateful for this thread!

 

Sometime from April, we had a bunch of personal issues (my dad was ill, I started up a new business) and homeschooling got sidetracked. We're having a slow start to the year with a review of the 15 chaps of Algebra that ds completed, after which he wants to start the AOPS Intro to Geometry class. Ds is very keen because he has a few friends signing up, but I worry that he's not up to it. Ds is slow! Right now, algebra revisions is going fairly well. He stalled in some places, but after some thinking or a quick flip through the book, he's actually doing fairly well (hurray for Alcumus!). But I don't think Geometry is the same :(.

 

I want him to lead in his education, but at the same time, I'm feeling uneasy about this decision. I had my heart set on hiring a private tutor for Geometry *after* Algebra II, so this development really throws a spanner in the works.  I'm packaging it so that if he has to bow out, he won't feel so bad, and I can sign him up for another class that he may enjoy better. He enjoyed the AMC8 prep class earlier this year, but that was a class that didn't need any prep. Really crossing my fingers now that I'm making the right decision  :001_unsure: .

 

I'm right there with you. I am on the roller coaster. (x-post) I was hesitant to have DD sign up for Algebra I this year, although she finished Prealgebra 1 and 2 with AoPS last year.  Now she wants me to let her take the online class for Algebra II, while she is taking Honors Geometry with an online class using the Jacobs book.  :001_unsure: She is taking the Algebra I class online with a group of kids that she likes, a few of them get together a couple times a week and work on problems together for hours.  I love that it motivates her.  I love that she is interacting with others kids at her level because she doesn't get that in our area.  I think that if she is motivated enough she could do them both, and do them well, but  I worry.

 

What is it about AoPS that constantly has me second guessing?  I second guess that it is covering the material that needs to be covered, or that she isn't getting enough practice.  I second guess that DD isn't able to do the work when she has proven herself capable to date?  I wonder if the boards have me second guessing myself or something else?  I do not have this problem with any other subject!  :banghead:

[Mukmuk]

Oh Melissa! You've voiced exactly what I'm thinking. Fantastic that your daughter has been able to get into the flow of things, *by herself*! :grouphug:

 

In our case, I have these very strong memories of a kid with a very strong dyslexic profile up till early last year. There were days (weeks? Months?) when nothing stuck and I spaced out from all the repetition we went through. I still feel terrified if it looks like ds will slip into the abyss. Sometimes, he has. I need to remind myself that it is getting rare, and even despite that, he's having a whale of a time. We went to a math camp and it was love love love for ds. It doesn't help that I don't have a good handle on AOPS myself, and my attempts to introduce other books (like Jacobs) have failed thus far.

 

Well, one day at a time. And he may still take to other books later on. I just need to breathe and watch closely. (Easy to say!)