Math disaster... I need advice!

[MommyThrice]

My middle son is mathematically challenged.  I know that.  I'm taking deep breaths. But still...

 

Last year was his sophomore year.  He just turned 16. He struggled with Algebra 2.  Really struggled.  He couldn't finish Saxon Alg 2 by the end of the year, so he's been working over the summer with a tutor.  The tutor is great and he's even given ds some supplemental problems to help prepare for the PSAT.  Still, he isn't going to finish Alg. 2 by the start of next year and he's registered to take Pre-Calc from the same tutor.  Tutor thinks it's okay since he's so close to the end of the book.  I agree, but the problem isn't that he didn't finish, but I think he doesn't understand what he has finished.  He has about an 87 average (I'm grading tests only).  

 

We have agreed to add an extra year of school.  He has a June birthday and dh and I both agree that he isn't ready for junior-level work - academics/time managements/maturity/etc...

 

He dropped his PSAT prep-class, partly b/c of time and partly b/c the math was a problem.  His older brother will be a national merit finalist and this son would like to do the same.  His goal, not mine.  Sibling competition.  There's probably no chance of that this year based on his practice scores, so he'll do the prep class next year.  (BTW, older son added a school year too, although it was easier since he had a Sept. birthday, and it has really helped him! He's glad he did that.)

 

So, I need advice.  

 

(1) Do I have him move on to Pre-Calc next year and hope for the best?  Tutor wants him to go ahead with Pre-Calc in 10th (repeat year) then high school calculus in 11th, then a semester of college calculus in 12th and he's finished with math forever.  I'm not sure he can do this.  

 

(2) Do I have him spend some more time on Algebra 2?  If so, how?  I've considered having him take dc college algebra, but I'm concerned about having that grade on his college transcript.  I don't want to torture/punish him, but he does need to understand algebra.  

 

So, is it possible to move on to Pre-Calc? Or is that a bad idea?  What would you do?  I need to decide something very quickly!

 

Thanks,

Tracie

[regentrude]

My middle son is mathematically challenged. 

Last year was his sophomore year.  He just turned 16. He struggled with Algebra 2.  Really struggled.

(1) Do I have him move on to Pre-Calc next year and hope for the best?  Tutor wants him to go ahead with Pre-Calc in 10th (repeat year) then high school calculus in 11th, then a semester of college calculus in 12th and he's finished with math forever.  I'm not sure he can do this.  

 

Honestly? I find the tutor's suggestion ridiculous!

Strong math students take high school calculus in 12th grade. Exceptionally strong students take calculus in 11th grade.

A struggling math student should not take high school calculus at all, but focus on a thorough mastery of algebra!

The regular high school progression for an average math student at an average school is algebra 1- geometry-algebra 2- precalculus. Yes, that is precalculus in 12th grade for an average student. Not in 10th. Most definitely not for a student who has not mastered algebra 2.

 

(2) Do I have him spend some more time on Algebra 2?  If so, how?  I've considered having him take dc college algebra, but I'm concerned about having that grade on his college transcript.  I don't want to torture/punish him, but he does need to understand algebra.  

 

So, is it possible to move on to Pre-Calc? Or is that a bad idea?  What would you do?  I need to decide something very quickly!

 

I teach science at a university, and when students struggle with math, they do not struggle because they did not take calculus in high school: they struggle because they have not mastered algebra! You will be doing your student a disservice if you push ahead without him having mastered algebra 2.

I have really big issues with the tutor's advice, and I would question his motives: does he desperately want to retain your son as a student?

 

It is not a race. Skipping and glossing over weaknesses now will come back to haunt him. Take your time and do it at your student's pace. he can start precalculus a few months into the school year, when he is ready.

[AngieW in Texas]

I agree with regentrude.

 

Your ds is not behind in math. He can retake Algebra II in 11th grade and be right on track.

Definitely don't move him on to a dual credit class in college algebra when he has struggled with Algebra II.

 

I recommend retaking Algebra II with a different math program. You already know that Saxon is not working for him, so just doing it all over again isn't going to help. I would switch to a traditional program. If you have time to help him, then Lial's Intermediate Algebra. If you don't have time to help him, then Teaching Textbooks (but do the placement test first, because he might actually place into their precalculus). MUS is also an option, but I will warn you that it is a very light program. I am using it with my youngest because it is very light.

 

My youngest dd struggles with math. I am using the most basic math program I know of because it is what works for her.  I just want to get her through precalculus and hopefully get her to the point where she can CLEP out of college algebra or take college algebra in college. She is not going to be heading towards anything that requires more math than that. Math is not her strength.

[JanetC]

I think the first thing to do is diagnose what he has missed.  It doesn't sound like you understand why he is struggling, and the tutor's advice to just have him go full speed ahead "tough it out" is crock, as regentrude rightly notes. 

 

Your goal should be to give him enough of a foundation that he can meet the college math requirement when he gets to college.  Note that doing a semester of college calculus in high school will get him out of college math only if he takes a high stakes test (AP or CLEP) *and* attends a college that accepts that particular test with his particular score in lieu of the math requirement.  That can be hard to predict, especially when his performance has been spotty to date.

 

What is his math history?  How did he do in Pre-algebra?  Algebra 1?  Geometry?  If you have stuck with Saxon all the way through, maybe it is time to explore another curriculum that does things differently.  If you have skipped around textbooks, it's possible there are holes in his math foundations because different books do topics in different orders.

[Nscribe]

Two questions--Which version of Saxon Algebra 2? What Pre-Calc program is pending?

[MommyThrice]

Two questions--Which version of Saxon Algebra 2? What Pre-Calc program is pending?

I've always used 2nd ed. of Saxon everything.  The Pre-Calc class uses Saxon Advanced math.  I don't have those books b/c my oldest moved straight from Alg. 2 (10th grade) to college dual credit Trig and Pre-Calc (11th).  He did well.  

 

[MommyThrice]

He has always struggled with math, but this has been the hardest year for him. He has managed to keep an A/B average based on test scores, so it could be worse.  He is not a linear thinker.  When he sees a new math problem, he doesn't build on what he's learned previously... it's like he's reinventing the wheel every time.  Sometimes I wish we could go back to the very beginning and have him take notes, but whenever we go back to foundations he gets very impatient and angry.  He struggled with learning to read.  He has struggled with foreign languages.  Everything is hard for him AND he has a problem with working diligently.  That's why I was kind of hoping to put him in an outside math class next year.  I would love to have someone else giving him deadlines for a change.  He will, at least, be taking some other outside classes next year.

 

Looking back, I did spend almost a semester having oldest work through one of the Lial books - don't remember which one right now.  Maybe I should give that a try with this one.  

 

Angie W. - I will make the time to help him.  We've tried the Dive DVDs and Khan; he just needs a live person to help and answer questions.  But it's very painful because he is so easily frustrated.

[maize]

I've always used 2nd ed. of Saxon everything. The Pre-Calc class uses Saxon Advanced math. I don't have those books b/c my oldest moved straight from Alg. 2 (10th grade) to college dual credit Trig and Pre-Calc (11th). He did well.

If he wants to do well on the PSAT and SAT he needs a strong geometry background. Am I remembering correctly that the standard Saxon sequence doesn't finish covering high school geometry topics until their advanced math course? I wonder if it might be best for him to do a stand alone geometry text, maybe alongside a review of algebra?

[MommyThrice]

Thanks for all the feedback.  I'm thinking now about taking the fall semester to go back through Alg. 2 and see where he's struggling, maybe using Lial's Intermediate Algebra.  I don't have the book with me now, but I'm assuming I can use some tests to pinpoint his weaknesses.  Then spend the spring semester on geometry.  My other two sons benefitted immensely from the first 1/3 of Jacobs Geometry, so I'll give that a try.  Or maybe start with the geometry to give him a break from the algebra.  He's not AT ALL happy about this!!!!

 

Next summer he will re-take the PSAT prep class (that's his desire) which should help fill in any other gaps.  

[Nscribe]

 

He's not AT ALL happy about this!!!!

 

 

I am kinda thinking that if I were a teen with an 87 or so test average and I was told it is a "disaster" and I would have to go back and start all over for the entire course, I might not be happy either.  I can hear my inner teen self saying..."so if I bring that up to a 90 average on tests would it move from being a disaster to maybe a worrisome situationt, would a 93 average make it a concern/disappointment?"  Having a B in math and being told I would have to repeat the class...i would not be happy.

 

That said, it sounds like you sense a lack of firm  enough understanding the test results are not revealing.  I have a love-hate relationship with Saxon, but on the love side is the feature allowing me to look back at what Dd misses and know which lesson numbers the issues are coming from so that we can direct any needed clarification/remediation in a very targeted way.  We keep old homework and tests.  If she is missing a type of problem consistently, I pick up on it fairly quickly.  The program's notation of which lessons a problem comes from makes the job of tracing the source of confusion very straightforward.  Have you been looking at his homework and tracking what type of problems on the tests he is missing? 

 

IMHO, Saxon Algebra 2 (we used the 3rd editon) does not allow much room for straying from the 4 lessons a week plus test a week model.  129 lessons, plus a couple of Geometry review pre-lessons means the student can wind up not finishing in the typical 36 week school year if anything comes up that slows them down.  Dd was about 35 lessons from being done when our "school year" wound up the second week of June and summer activities.  Starting into the new school year it appears she will have about 12 lessons remaining to complete.  In her case, she drug her feet a bit at a couple of points last year and she had some illnesses and interruptions that slowed the pace (about 1/2 of each make up the deficit).  We will finish those remaining lessons and move into Advanced Math with the goal of reaching at least lesson 60 this year.  Her consequence for not being done came with having to work as she could during the summer and not having any math free time between school years.  I am ok with it because I can see that the program leaves very little wiggle room for falling behind and she has learned to not let things go when there is a choice and plan for the rainy days.

 

How does your son feel about Saxon?  Is he asking for another program?  Just how far behind is he?  Have you analyzed where the deficits are using the provided lesson number references, provided help targeted to them? 

 

I like the Geometry course from the Teaching Company and it works with Jacobs.  I have used it with Dd when I felt she would benefit some non-Saxon input. 

 

I agree with the others who encourage that Algebra is so fundamental it must be mastered, I am just not sure from what you have posted that the process of going over it all again is the best course to address the issues.

[JanetC]

 He is not a linear thinker.  When he sees a new math problem, he doesn't build on what he's learned previously... it's like he's reinventing the wheel every time

.  

He struggled with learning to read.  He has struggled with foreign languages.  Everything is hard for him AND he has a problem with working diligently. 

 

Have you had him tested for learning differences?  It sounds like there may be global issues.  If he does have a learning disability of some sort, it is very counterproductive to label him as "not working diligently"  If the work is harder because of an LD, he's going to tire out sooner than someone who does not have a disability and not be able to sustain higher workloads.

[EKS]

The reinventing the wheel thing is a classic sign of not seeing the big picture. Saxon exacerbates this problem by carving things up and skipping around. I highly recommend the Lial text coupled with a human to present and discuss the material as a remedy.

[MommyThrice]

Have you had him tested for learning differences?  It sounds like there may be global issues.  If he does have a learning disability of some sort, it is very counterproductive to label him as "not working diligently"  If the work is harder because of an LD, he's going to tire out sooner than someone who does not have a disability and not be able to sustain higher workloads.

Well, I've thought about it.  I don't really know where to start.  Have you done this with one of yours?

[kiana]

I agree a lot with EKS. I think I'd take something like Lial's and have him move through, doing chapter reviews to find areas of weakness. I do not think Saxon is a good fit for someone who needs help to see the big picture.

[Nscribe]

Has he done Geometry outside of Saxon?  If he is finishing up Algebra 2 with the older Saxon series and hasn't done Geometry, he may be tripped up even with a review of Algebra once he hits Pre-Calc.  A big chunk of Geometry in the Saxon series falls at the end of Algebra 2 and in the beginning of Advanced Math?  Just something to consider if switching programs.

[mathwonk]

I am also puzzled that a kid who struggles in math and wants to be finished with math forever after high school, would even consider taking calculus in high school. If he isn't interested in a math career, why would he need calculus?

 

I must say however that some people judge kids more by what they have taken than by what they understand. My son's high school wanted him to take calculus at the local engineering college and I suggested he just stay in high school math and really master it. Then when he applied to a top college they preferred a weaker student in his class who had taken college calc, but understood less math, and did less well on tests and competitions than our son.

 

I learned the hard way that my mathematician's sense of what is an appropriate program is not always shared by admissions officials. So maybe the tutor is thinking more of your child's transcript than his education?

[Brenda in MA]

The reinventing the wheel thing is a classic sign of not seeing the big picture. Saxon exacerbates this problem by carving things up and skipping around. I highly recommend the Lial text coupled with a human to present and discuss the material as a remedy.

I agree with this. My oldest was getting As on the Saxon math tests (up through the first half of Advanced Math), but I found that he really didn't understand the math. He couldn't apply it to his Chemistry & Physics classes very well. So I've definitely seen that grades on Saxon's tests can give you a false sense of security with some kids.

 

I would definitely suggest that you work with him to repeat at least some of Algebra 2 and use a different text. Lials would probably be a good choice. I switched my son to Chalkdust, and that worked really well for him. He loved the DVD lectures.

 

Best wishes,

Brenda

[JanetC]

Well, I've thought about it. I don't really know where to start. Have you done this with one of yours?

My kids are "quirky" in the sense that their evaluations come back as "I'm seeing some definite differences here, but nothing I would want to put a label on" We've dabbled in vision therapy and occupational therapy, as well as using a special reading program, all of which have been worthwhile for my DC even though they were not as far behind as some of the other kids in the same programs.

 

I was lucky to have a homeschool special needs in-person group where names of providers were traded. I also got assistance from our pediatrician. I've also seen provider names traded at non-special needs homeschool gatherings, once people know each other enough to talk about their challenges comfortably. Gifted groups also have a large number of kids who are "twice exceptional" -- gifted in some areas and LDs in others, and parents there will make referrals. The 2E community might be useful for you -- a kid who has enough skills to get by in the younger years but struggles more as the material gets more complex often fits this label: gifts in one area mask weaknesses in others.

 

So, I am not an expert, and cannot diagnose anyone's problems, but I've used some services and have been in support groups where I've heard stories. I may even be a little too forward in suggesting that parents have their kids tested, but in my experience with the homeschooling special needs support group, I saw a few families that waited much too late to acknowledge their kids struggles and it was really sad for all concerned.

 

My best advice is: If there's a little voice in the back of your mind telling you to maybe go down this path, listen to it. Mom usually knows.

[Catwoman]

If he truly doesn't understand the subject, I'm trying to figure out how he has managed to maintain an 87 average. :confused:

[EKS]

All of the rote practice in Saxon makes it possible to do well on the tests without having a deep understanding of the material.

[Julie of KY]

I'd find a different tutor or math person who can sit down and evaluate him. To evaluate, I would start at the beginning of an algebra book and pick some random (good) end of chapter problems and watch how he does them. Is he correct? Is he confident in correct problems or just hoping he's correct? Oftentimes, students struggles with foundational pieces of algebra and understand harder concepts - just messing them up because they don't understand how to manipulate fractions or exponents, etc.

 

It might be beneficial to start over, but for many you just need to find the holes and then fill them in. Pushing on to higher math is crazy if he doesn't have the algebra solid.

[kiana]

If he truly doesn't understand the subject, I'm trying to figure out how he has managed to maintain an 87 average. :confused:

 

It does not by any means happen to everyone who uses Saxon, but some students come out of it technically proficient (due to the large amounts of problems done) and yet unable to extrapolate beyond the Saxon-style word problems to really understand what they're doing or apply it in other courses.

[Catwoman]

It does not by any means happen to everyone who uses Saxon, but some students come out of it technically proficient (due to the large amounts of problems done) and yet unable to extrapolate beyond the Saxon-style word problems to really understand what they're doing or apply it in other courses.

Thanks, Kiana! :)

[MommyThrice]

I am also puzzled that a kid who struggles in math and wants to be finished with math forever after high school, would even consider taking calculus in high school. If he isn't interested in a math career, why would he need calculus?

 

 

My thoughts exactly.  He does not want a career that has anything to do with math.  Loves humanities, history, political science.  He could POSSIBLY need calculus if he wants to study economics, but that's a long shot.  Seems obvious he needs to go back and get the foundation.

 

And now that the hive has confirmed my hunch... I'm at peace!

[kiana]

My thoughts exactly.  He does not want a career that has anything to do with math.  Loves humanities, history, political science.  He could POSSIBLY need calculus if he wants to study economics, but that's a long shot.  Seems obvious he needs to go back and get the foundation.

 

And now that the hive has confirmed my hunch... I'm at peace!

 

I would agree. I would also suggest AP stats as a superior course to AP calc for senior year anyway. A basic understanding of stats is a very nice thing to have for many humanities disciplines.